Pippin's stone and the attack at the Chamber of Marzabul

[The Wizard from Milan]

In Moria, Pippin lets go of the stone in the dry well at the beginning of the night spent before the three way fork. Drums in the dark are heard. Yet the attack on the Fellowhip happens 2 (or 3?) days later in the Chamber of Marzabul.
Why was the Fellowhsip not attacked before?
And how did the orcs/troll/balrog know that the Fellowship was in the Chamber of Marzabul? Indeed the Fellowship could have taken any of the three paths at the fork and be somewhere totally different on their 2nd (or 3rd?) day since the stone.

[Earniel]

That may be exactly why the Fellowship wasn't attacked earlier, if you ask me. :p The orcs were alerted to another presence in their home through the falling stone but Moria is far too huge to be inspected at once.

And since that the Fellowship tracked for days through Moria (even after their rather 'loud' entrance through the gate) without encountering even clues of recent orc presense, that would indicate that the orcs restricted them to the lower levels and were perhaps not completely familiar with the higher halls and areas.

I also suspect they wanted to do a 'muster of Moria' themselves before going after the intruders. Anyone entering Moria at this point was either a total loon or someone very powerful. I suppose they didn't want to take any chances.

[Spock]

Well said. Indeed, the stone alerted the evil, that someone had intruded.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Yet, you would think that in an abandoned mine the falling of a stone is a quite frequent event

[Earniel]

Funny thing, that was my first thought too. But perhaps not on that spot or not with an old waterhole? Or maybe the orcs did notice something of the fight at the gate with the Watcher in the Water and were already put on edge for anything? Plenty of room for speculation.

In any case, we'd have been cheated out of a few very impressive scenes if the orcs hadn't decided to look into matters after the one fallen stone. :)

[Bombadillo]

In any case, we'd have been cheated out of a few very impressive scenes if the orcs hadn't decided to look into matters after the one fallen stone. :)Ha! Yeah! That's the understatement of the year.

[Curubethion]

You know, I just had a thought. Perhaps the goblins were on edge because the Balrog sensed Gandalf's presence? After all they were both Maiar.

[Olmer]

And since that the Fellowship tracked for days through Moria (even after their rather 'loud' entrance through the gate) without encountering even clues of recent orc presense, that would indicate that the orcs restricted them to the lower levels and were perhaps not completely familiar with the higher halls and areas.

How about they simply were not interested in whoever roams the wast caves of Moria as long as intruders are not posing any treats for local dwellers, and had been forced to actions by Saruman's ambassadors who carried a specific order and knew what to look for?
P.S. Hi, everyone! :)
It's nice to be back home.
I guess that I have to catch up with a lot of stuff over here... :(

[Earniel]

You know, I just had a thought. Perhaps the goblins were on edge because the Balrog sensed Gandalf's presence? After all they were both Maiar.
It's a possibility, although I personally don't think it would be that. That would mean that every wizard as well as Sauron and the Balrogs would be able to feel each other presences, something I don't really remember reading any allusions to.

In my eyes the Istari and the Balrogs are not exactly Maiar anymore. The Istari were bound to flesh and the Balrog would be so intertwined with fire that I reckon they would no longer be your basic Maiar, or have the same skills as the Maiar in the West.

P.S. Hi, everyone! :)
It's nice to be back home.
I guess that I have to catch up with a lot of stuff over here... :(
Well, well, long time no see. Welcome back! :) Your unique conspiracy ideas and theories have been missed.

How about they simply were not interested in whoever roams the wast caves of Moria as long as intruders are not posing any treats for local dwellers, and had been forced to actions by Saruman's ambassadors who carried a specific order and knew what to look for?
That would depend on how you see the command lines within Moria, something in which I didn't go to deep for this thread. Were the orcs led by the Balrog, dependant or independant from Mordor or did they took orders from Saruman instead? I think there were one or two threads active on this subject a while ago.

But personally I'd reckon that orcs were interested in whoever passed through the mines they had taken. If only to have a little bit of 'sport' in disposing of them.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What about Gollum. He had been in Moria for acouple of months, the goblins, or at least the Balrog probably knew of his presence, so it wouldn't surprise me if Gollum lead them to the Fellowship.

[The Wizard from Milan]

You know, I just had a thought. Perhaps the goblins were on edge because the Balrog sensed Gandalf's presence? After all they were both Maiar.
But Gandalf does not sense the Balrog, although it is spain that he know that some great evil is in the mines. He might even know that the Barlorg is there.
Still when he is putting the locking spell on the other side of the Chamber of Marzabul and the Balrog breaks the spell, Gandalf says something like "I have met my match, but I don't know what it is"

[The Wizard from Milan]

That would depend on how you see the command lines within Moria, something in which I didn't go to deep for this thread. Were the orcs led by the Balrog, dependant or independant from Mordor or did they took orders from Saruman instead? I think there were one or two threads active on this subject a while ago.

But personally I'd reckon that orcs were interested in whoever passed through the mines they had taken. If only to have a little bit of 'sport' in disposing of them.
I don't know. But either Haldir or one of his companions, say that orcs had been going towards Moria just a couple of days before. It is not unlikely that they were sent there by somebody how knew that the Fellowship was there

[The Wizard from Milan]

What about Gollum. He had been in Moria for acouple of months, the goblins, or at least the Balrog probably knew of his presence, so it wouldn't surprise me if Gollum lead them to the Fellowship.
Highly unlikely, IMO. I don't see Gollum mingling with the orcs, or the orcs mingling with Gollum

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm not saying he would mingle with them, of course not, he hated them. But they may have known of his presence in Moria, and thus he may have led them to the Fellowship.

[Curubethion]

But Gandalf does not sense the Balrog, although it is spain that he know that some great evil is in the mines. He might even know that the Barlorg is there.
Still when he is putting the locking spell on the other side of the Chamber of Marzabul and the Balrog breaks the spell, Gandalf says something like "I have met my match, but I don't know what it is"
That was kind of something like I meant. The Balrog knew there was some power entering Moria, so that may have put him on alert. And if the Balrog's getting nervous, all those little goblins are scared too-because they don't want to run into a paranoid Balrog! :eek:

[King of The Istari]

they don't want to run into a paranoid Balrog! :eek:

can you imagine that? a goblin turns a corner to find a Balrog, wets himself :eek: , and next thing you know poof one goblin extra crispy :D

[Gordis]

I don't know. But either Haldir or one of his companions, say that orcs had been going towards Moria just a couple of days before. It is not unlikely that they were sent there by somebody how knew that the Fellowship was there

You are quite right about "towards", but it was not a couple of days before.

Haldir says "We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many days ago."

What is "many days", especially from the POV of a dweller of a timeless realm, where a month seems a few days? It is likely Mordor orcs were sent to Moria to search for Gollum, sometime in summer, more than half a year ago. Unless it was much earlier, who can tell with those elves? :D

How about they simply were not interested in whoever roams the wast caves of Moria as long as intruders are not posing any treats for local dwellers, and had been forced to actions by Saruman's ambassadors who carried a specific order and knew what to look for?

I disagree that those were Saruman's orcs.
Gandalf: 'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. `And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor.
I guess Gandalf had enough expertise to tell an uruk from Mordor from an orc of Saruman's. Hadn't he spent months gazing at the latter from the roof of Orthanc? :D

Moreover, look at the huge uruk's description:
But even as they retreated, and before Pippin and Merry had reached the stair outside, a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber; behind him his followers clustered in the doorway. His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear. With a thrust of his huge hide shield he turned Boromir's sword and bore him backwards, throwing him to the ground. Diving under Aragorn's blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the Company and thrust with his spear straight at Frodo. The blow caught him on the right side, and Frodo was hurled against the wall and pinned. Sam, with a cry, hacked at the spear-shaft, and it broke. But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, Andúril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with cloven head. His followers fled howling, as Boromir and Aragorn sprang at them.

The orcs of Saruman were half-breeds, half-men, half-orcs. They were more alike to humans, than Mordor uruks. And Saruman's orcs had straight swords, not curved scimitars like Mordor uruks. In the quote above we have swart face, red tongue and scimitar. Aragorn noted nothing special about this one, while, later, at Path Galen he saw Saruman's orcs for the first time: And Aragorn looked on the slain, and he said: 'Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!'
There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field; on the front of their iron helms was set an S-rune, wrought of some white metal.

The chain of command in Moria:

There was a rush of hoarse laughter, like the fall of sliding stones into a pit; amid the clamour a deep voice was raised in command.

Whose voice was that? Barlog's? He was near, as he entered the Chamber of Mazarbul right after the Fellowship escaped and closed the door...Or was it an orc-chieftain?

[Curubethion]

can you imagine that? a goblin turns a corner to find a Balrog, wets himself :eek: , and next thing you know poof one goblin extra crispy :D
Exactly :D .

[Landroval]

Whose voice was that? Barlog's? He was near, as he entered the Chamber of Mazarbul right after the Fellowship escaped and closed the door...Or was it an orc-chieftain?
Considering that after the voice is heard, the drums start rolling, I would say it is an orc; besides, I doubt the orcs would have listened to a balrog :).

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think they would have done. Orcs are quite easily scared, so when someone that powerful tells you them to do something they usually do it. Fo example in TH, Beorn scares to goblin to tell him what he knows, he does. I think this is the same principle.

[Landroval]

I don't recall the goblin-Beorn passage exactly, but I doubt that golbin had little if any choice; in the chamber, the orcs flee when the balrog appears, facilitating thus the escape of the fellowship across the bridge. Hardly a colaboration issue :).