LOTR DP: The Ride of the Rohirrim and The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

[Valandil]

The Ride of the Rohirrim and The Battle of Pelennor Fields

Strap yourselves in, because the action is now getting fierce! I’ve always loved this part of the story – maybe for the exciting pace, maybe that we finally get a part of what we’ve been building toward. It just amazes me though to see how few pages this all covers (10 and 12 in my paperback edition, respectively).

The Ride of the Rohirrim:

We start with Merry among the Rohirrim as they’re encamped for the night, having drawn fairly near to Minas Tirith. He has been traveling with “Dernhelm” – and the others in the company (or “eored”), just seem to ‘look the other way’ in regard to him, not acknowledging his presence because they know he was not supposed to come. This allowance is given because there is some ‘understanding’ between Dernhelm and Elfhelm, who commands this eored. This particular night, things are stirring, drumbeats come continuously from the woods and Merry cannot sleep. Elfhelm, after nearly tripping over him, acknowledges him enough to tell him what’s going on. Some “Woses” – Wild Men of the Woods have come to speak with King Theoden.

Finally, Merry makes his way over to where he can look in and listen in on the pow-wow. He sees a chieftain of these people – who reminds him of the Pukel Men of Dunharrow, the stone figures lining the pass. This chieftain’s name is Ghan-buri-Ghan. Eager to see the destruction of the invading Orc armies, he has come to propose that his people work together with the Rohirrim. Not by helping them on a field of battle, but by being their ears and eyes and helping to put them in the best position to do battle. He shows that he can deliver too; by informing them that Minas Tirith is on fire, by demonstrating that he knows the very number of Theoden’s force, and by revealing his knowledge of an old road that has fallen into disuse, which would be perfect for advancing Rohan’s army directly to the field of battle. All Ghan-buri-Ghan asks is that they kill Orcs – and that they stop hunting his people like beasts.

The Rohirrim agree and make the march along the abandoned road. After leading them there, Ghan-buri-Ghan departs from them in peace, his final words remarking on how the wind has shifted to the south – a change from the east wind which had been blowing the clouds of Mount Doom westward for several days. Soon after, they find indications that Denethor never received word that they were coming – indications in the form of slain messengers and mounts.

The Rohirrim still have a good ride to the city, so after a brief rest, they start up once more, sweeping past some lightly guarded outerworks as they advance. Dernhelm has pulled forward from Elfhelm’s company and near the King and the riders of his household. They drew nearer to the city just before dawn – and can see and smell the fires. Then, even as shadow and fear seem likely to overtake them, a fresh breeze from the south strikes their faces, there comes a flash of lightening (surely the breaking of Minas Tirith’s gate by Grond, from the previous chapter) – and Theoden rises to the occasion. He rallies his men with words of war, seizes a great horn and blows such a blast on it that it bursts asunder, then leads his forces into battle – flying before them on Snowmane. It’s impossible to say it any better than this:

Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!

Suddenly the King cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Eomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first eored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Theoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! It shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.


The Battle of the Pelennor Fields:

This epic battle is only 12 pages – and yet 2/3rds of it is devoted to four characters (Theoden, Eowyn, Merry and the Lord of the Nazgul) – two of whom die, two of whom are wounded.

The chapter opens by jumping back to Gandalf’s confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul – who had just broken through the gates of the city and was about to enter on horseback – only now that the wind has shifted, the morning has come, and the horns of Rohan are heard coming onto the battlefield, he departs from the Gate.

We then pick up once more with Theoden’s charge. He leads his knights against their southern counterparts, the horsemen of the Haradrim, who had come out to attempt to overwhelm him. Their standard of a black serpent upon scarlet would contrast nicely with the white horse on green. Theoden strikes down their leader himself, then cuts down the enemy standard and its bearer.

But then darkness and terror seize Theoden’s men and their horses. Even as he tries to rally them, Snowmane is shot from under him with a black dart (this term was commonly used for arrows) and falls – on top of the King. Then onto the scene arrives the source of this new terror and darkness – the Lord of the Nazgul, now mounted on a fell beast – which sounds quite a bit like a pteranodon, or something. The beast moves in to feast on Snowmane – but a lone knight remains to defend fallen King and steed – Dernhelm, alone and unhorsed – with Merry observing in a daze and in horror.

Words are exchanged. Dernhelm is oddly defiant of the great Lord of the Nazgul – or very protective of the King. The haughty foe boasts that no man may hinder him – but this last is met with laughter, and the revelation that “Dernhelm” is really Eowyn, a woman and not a man – who has disobeyed Theoden’s command to stay with her people and has taken up arms and the guise of a rider to join in the battle, out of her own despair and hopelessness. This revelation gives the Nazgul Lord pause, he must be wondering if he has stumbled upon a loophole. So – he rushes her with his winged mount, but she neatly side-steps, slices off the creature’s head and then jumps back to let it fall (must have been a thing of beauty!).

“Now you’ve made me angry!” (not his exact words) – the Nazgul rises from where he and his beast had fallen, wielding a great mace. Eowyn is armed with shield and sword, but his first blow shatters her shield and breaks her arm, she falls to her knees. All he has to do is finish her off.

But Merry has gathered his wits, snuck around behind, and he strikes at the hated Nazgul Lord just then – right where he can best reach, down low – back of the knee, up under the hem of his protective mail. Now he falls. Eowyn rises and thrusts with all her might where his head must be – the space between his crown and shoulders, and her sword “broke sparkling into many shards”. She fell forward, but only onto the clothing and armor where the Nazgul Lord used to be. He wasn’t there anymore, but a cry went up – and faded away.

Merry stood there for a bit, not really knowing what to do. The arm with which he had struck the Nazgul had lost its use, and he even watched the weapon he used – the dagger from the Barrow Downs – wither and dissolve into smoke before his eyes. He speaks words of parting with Theoden, but is unable to tell him that Eowyn in near. Eomer arrives with his knights – and just before he dies, Theoden gathers himself one last time to signify that Eomer is to be King. Just then Eomer spots Eowyn and assuming that she’s dead, rushes back off into battle. Some of the men stay behind to bear Theoden and Eowyn to the city and to gather together those others of Rohan who had fallen near them. Merry tags along, still pretty much as un-noticed as he had been by Elfhelm’s outfit. Finally Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth comes to them, leading his own knights outward from the city to help the forces of Rohan win the field. He discovers and reveals that Eowyn still lives, then rushes off to the succor of Eomer.

The battle is going… well, OK. The forces of Rohan have been successful thus far, and those of Gondor are advancing onto the field as well – but it looks like things are about to take a turn for the worse. The southern half of the field holds great armies that are still unfought, fresh forces are coming from Osgiliath, and those Mumakil – the Oliphaunts – have just been unassailable. Prince Imrahil has been stymied in trying to unite his forces with Eomer’s – the enemy has engaged them both separately and is driving a wedge up between them.

Just when things are starting to look bad, they start to look worse. Riding that wonderful southern wind, which has now scattered the clouds and fumes of Sauron’s darkness, are ships of Umbar. On enemy of Gondor coming to aid Gondor’s other foes.

Or so it seems. Until the standard of Elendil is unfurled – the one which Arwen had prepared for Aragorn and sent with Halbarad. For Aragorn has traversed the Paths of the Dead and has arrived on the field of battle at just the right time, with his Dunedain kindred, with his companions Gimli and Legolas, and with fresh forces from Gondor’s southern regions, who now have nothing to fear from Umbar. The spirits of Gondor’s allies surge and those of Gondor’s enemies fade. Aragorn leads the charge ashore (apparently mounted) with Narsil reforged into Anduril – and he meets Eomer on the field of battle.

The fight has turned, but the foes are grim. Once the main part of the battle is won, there’s still plenty of mopping-up to do, all across the field. This continues from noon to sunset, by which time there is no living foe left within the Rammas – the outer wall of the Pelennor Fields. Many have fallen, including Halbarad, and a number of the chieftains that Pippin and Beregond had watched marching into the city just days before. The chapter ends with an Ode to the Fallen.


Discussion Questions:

The Ride of the Rohirrim
1. Why did Elfhelm allow Eowyn and Merry to travel with his company? Did he only know about Merry, and think that Eowyn was indeed ‘Dernhelm’ – perhaps a lone rider from a distant part of the land? Or did he know both about Merry and about Eowyn?
2. Was Merry the ONLY one who didn’t realize that Dernhelm was really Eowyn?
3. What do you think about the situation of Ghan-buri-Ghan’s people? They were apparently hunted down by men of Rohan and/or Gondor – but they were willing to ally with them against the forces of Mordor. Sort of a “My enemy’s enemy is my ally” pragmatism. But why would they have more hatred for a new foe than the ones who had pursued them for so long?
4. How did those people of the Druadin Forest both survive and stay separate all those many years, so close to Gondor’s chief city?
5. What do you think of Theoden bursting the horn as he blew it?
6. Comment on that quoted description of Theoden – especially the usages of imagery and color.

The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
1. Now that it has just ended, how is Gandalf’s confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith like/unlike his earlier confrontation with the Balrog of Moria?
2. Note the Nazgul’s cry of hatred as his mace fell and broke Eowyn’s shield. Normal Nazgul cry – like the Hobbits have heard since they were in the Shire? A spell?
3. Who killed the Lord of the Nazgul – Merry or Eowyn?
4. Comment on the ‘Warrior Culture’ of the Rohirrim – in particular with the words spoken as they go into battle, and the final words of Theoden to both Merry and Eomer, as well as Eomer’s response.
5. Any comments on Eomer’s reaction to seeing Eowyn? Why did he assume she was dead, instead of checking, like Prince Imrahil would do?
6. Who / what was Gothmog – the lieutenant of Morgul: Man, Orc, Nazgul, Other?

Any other questions, discussions, comments are more than welcome.

[The Gaffer]

Wow, excellent job Valandil.

These chapters always have me weeping into me taters. Why is that?

I love the decsription of the Rohirrim entering the Rammas and spreading out like an advancing tide.

I'll think about question 5, the warrior culture of the Rohirrim. To date we've had some heroics from them, but to quote Churchill, "this was their finest hour". And in Theoden they have a leader who rises to the task: inspiring words and leads by example.

It's impossible to think of words which work better than Tolkien's: he obviously had a great fondness for the strawheads.

[CrazySquirrel]

Very nice summary, Val :) .

1. Why did Elfhelm allow Eowyn and Merry to travel with his company? Did he only know about Merry, and think that Eowyn was indeed ‘Dernhelm’ – perhaps a lone rider from a distant part of the land? Or did he know both about Merry and about Eowyn?

I think he recognised her all right - he knew her all her life.

2. Was Merry the ONLY one who didn’t realize that Dernhelm was really Eowyn?

Yes, it looks like that. Perhaps for hobbits all Men (uncluding women :D ) look very much alike. Often happens with people of another race.

3. What do you think about the situation of Ghan-buri-Ghan’s people? They were apparently hunted down by men of Rohan and/or Gondor – but they were willing to ally with them against the forces of Mordor. Sort of a “My enemy’s enemy is my ally” pragmatism. But why would they have more hatred for a new foe than the ones who had pursued them for so long?

Perhaps the Gondoreans didn't hunt them, only Rohirrim?

4. How did those people of the Druadin Forest both survive and stay separate all those many years, so close to Gondor’s chief city?

See above

5. What do you think of Theoden bursting the horn as he blew it?

Poetic licence

6. Comment on that quoted description of Theoden – especially the usages of imagery and color.

Also sounds like a later song of the Mark - that might have been the source for the Red Book.

The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

1. Now that it has just ended, how is Gandalf’s confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith like/unlike his earlier confrontation with the Balrog of Moria?

What do you mean? :confused:

2. Note the Nazgul’s cry of hatred as his mace fell and broke Eowyn’s shield. Normal Nazgul cry – like the Hobbits have heard since they were in the Shire? A spell?

"Normal" nazgul cry may be a spell of terror (like in Minas Tirith) or a simple way of communication between the distant riders (like in the Shire).

The Witch-King's cry when hitting Eowyn, was no spell, neither was it a rallying cry, I think. It was a very human cry of hatred for that *** girl who killed his FAVORITE fell beasie!

3. Who killed the Lord of the Nazgul – Merry or Eowyn?

Joint effort. Either one of them, without another, would have become a dead "no-man" :D

4. Comment on the ‘Warrior Culture’ of the Rohirrim – in particular with the words spoken as they go into battle, and the final words of Theoden to both Merry and Eomer, as well as Eomer’s response.

Too hard for me.

5. Any comments on Eomer’s reaction to seeing Eowyn? Why did he assume she was dead, instead of checking, like Prince Imrahil would do?

Perhaps he was no healer? Or he had no time? Or she was simply looking so very dead?

6. Who / what was Gothmog – the lieutenant of Morgul: Man, Orc, Nazgul, Other?

Gothmog, he was a nazgul, IMHO. Number Three, likely. (As Khamul the Second was in Dol Guldur). Though nobody can get any proofs for that, :D, or against that, for that matter.

[Valandil]

1. Now that it has just ended, how is Gandalf’s confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith like/unlike his earlier confrontation with the Balrog of Moria?

What do you mean? :confused:


Oh - I don't know. The thought just struck me while I was trying to think up questions. It's actually in "Seige of Gondor" that Gandalf says, "You cannot enter here." and that makes me think of the classic, "You cannot pass!" from Moria. So that gave me one similarity. I could think of some differences... but I'll leave it all on the table for now, in case someone else wants to try and answer it. :p

[Gordis]

Oh - I don't know. The thought just struck me while I was trying to think up questions. It's actually in "Seige of Gondor" that Gandalf says, "You cannot enter here." and that makes me think of the classic, "You cannot pass!" from Moria. So that gave me one similarity. I could think of some differences... but I'll leave it all on the table for now, in case someone else wants to try and answer it. :p
Curious that you put this question, Val. As far as I know, P.Jackson definitely saw these 2 scenes as quite similar, therefore he removed the Witch King from the Gates of Minas Tirith entirely and destroyed one of the best scenes in the book.

Now that I think on it, there were some similarities at the beginning, that was probably made for the readers to dread for Gandalf even more. I think the readers fully expected them to fight, and to kill each other, like with the Barlog. But the FATE has decided otherwise. :)

[Valandil]

... I think the readers fully expected them to fight, and to kill each other, like with the Barlog...

I wonder though...

Was a Nazgul, even their Chief, as great as a Balrog? And wasn't Gandalf the White now more powerful than Gandalf the Grey had been?

[Gordis]

I wonder though...

Was a Nazgul, even their Chief, as great as a Balrog? And wasn't Gandalf the White now more powerful than Gandalf the Grey had been?
I think I know the answer to this question. Unfortunately, the answer lies not in the text of the LOTR, but in the drafts for the story, published in HOME 6-8. Here is the piece I have just posted in the "Death of Ainur" thread in ME Forum:

Tolkien had an earlier conception of the Witch King, where his nature and identity were no mystery. In LOTR drafts he was called "the Wizard King" and was originally the most powerful WIZARD of the same order as Gandalf.

"Gandalf has insufficient magic to cope with Black Riders unaided, whose king is a wizard" The Treason of Isengard p. 9

War between Ond and Wizard King....Tarkil's fathers had been driven out by the wizard that is now Chief of the Nine" The Treason of Isengard p.116

"Then my heart failed me for a moment; for the Chief of the Nine was of old the greatest of all the wizards of Men, and I have no power to withstand the Nine Riders when he leads them" The Treason of Isengard p. 132.

"Denetor and Faramir marvel at Gandalf's power over Nazgul. Gandalf says things are still not so bad - because the Wizard King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order...from Numenor. 'So far I have saved myself from him only by flight'...""The War of the Ring" p.326.

Interesting that the idea that the 9 Rings were given to MEN was a very early conception:

"But all the Nine Rings of Men have gone back to Sauron, and borne with them their possessors, kings, warriors, and wizards of old, who became Ring-wraiths and served the maker and were his most terrible servants" The Return of the Shadow, p.260.

On the contrary, the idea that Wizards were Maiar who were sent to ME from Valinor in the THIRD Age was a late idea, from the time when "The Istari" in the Unfinished Tales were written (after the main text of the LORT and before the Appendices).

Of course, when Tolkien made up his mind about the nature of Wizards, and decided they came to ME around TA 1000, it became impossible for the WK to be one of them, because, how then "the 9 rings were given to men?" How could a Maia become a wraith?

So, the "Wizard King" was changed to the "Witch-King" throughout the text, and a few sentences when Gandalf reveals his nature (see quotes above) were removed.
But that was all. Nothing was changed in the scene of the WK's death - so his body disappears much like Saruman's (and understandably so).

Everyone reading LOTR gets a clear impression that Gandalf fears the WK, because he is overmatched. And it made sense in the earlier conception, because the Wizard King was the more powerful WIZARD of the two, or had similar power and strength as Gandalf the White. Also the WK still remains the strongest BY FAR than the other nazgul (though now the reason for it is gone).

That is how the Witch-King lost his identity. :) He is still called "King and Sorcerer of old", but Tolkien never came up with a new story for him, that had to explain why he was so very powerful.

In a way it is now a plothole of the LOTR.

[Valandil]

Interesting... and I don't have those HoME books. Would you mind if I copy that into a new thread? :)

[Gordis]

By all means, Val, if you feel it doesn't really belong to the chapter discussion.

There are several LOTR plotholes caused by the perpetual development of Tolkien's conceptions.

HOME Books give answers to many debatable things in the LOTR - for example Glorfindel's prophecy and whether it applied to Gandalf or not. Also, perhaps to the Gothmog ;) question.

[Valandil]

Well - part of the idea of this DP was to bring up various topics and start new threads of specific interest as we went along. This is a good thing. :)

The new thread is here:

http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot/showthread.php?t=12900

[Gordis]

Thanks, O Thread-Splitter! :)

But now I am confused where to put my bits about the prophesy "no living man" :confused: as it is also from HOME.
If you want me to put it not here, but in the new thread, you better add to the new thread name
"... and wizards" :)
Gor

[Gordis]

About Gothmog

There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues..

I agree with CS that Gothmog must have been a nazgul. No orc surely, he held too high a position, similar to the Mouth of Sauron, Leutenant of the Dark Tower. Orcs sometimes commanded orcs (like Shagrat of Cirith Ungol) but hardly any orc ever commanded Men. And from the quote above, we see that Gothmog has become the head of the Mordor army with authority over Easterlings, Variags and Southrons. Alternatively, he could be a mortal Man, but I doubt that in the city of the Ringwraiths a motral Man could hold higher position than 6 of the resident nazgul.

An additional argument might be this:
In an immediately rejected version of the passage in which the new hosts streaming out of Osgiliath are described, it was said of the Black Captain: 'He was gone, and the Nazgul in fear had fled to Mordor bearing ill tidings'; but this was lost in the rewriting of the passage where appears Gothmog lieutenant of Morgul - HOME 8. If Gothmog were meant to be a nazgul, then the rejection of the sentence about all the remaining Nazgul fleeing seems explained.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Ride 3 & 4. I expect that the 'wild men' were only hunted on rare occasions by a few violent and anti-social Eorlingas; it does not seem in the regular charactor of the Eorlingas to do so routinely. If notes of the Druadan in HoME are accepted for this subject. The Gondorians would be familier with the wild men as ancient allies from the first and sec0onds ages and gladly accepted them in the forest as a buffer against Orc raiders.

[Gordis]

Oh - I don't know. The thought just struck me while I was trying to think up questions. It's actually in "Seige of Gondor" that Gandalf says, "You cannot enter here." and that makes me think of the classic, "You cannot pass!" from Moria. So that gave me one similarity. I could think of some differences... but I'll leave it all on the table for now, in case someone else wants to try and answer it.

Here is my analysis. :D

Moria:.
Gandalf: `You cannot pass,' ...`I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'

The Balrog made no answer.

Minas Tirith.
Gandalf: ‘You cannot enter here,’ ...‘Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!’

Witch-King: ‘Old fool!’ ...‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!’

Similarities.

Gandalf's intimidating repertoire seems rather restricted. :rolleyes: "You cannot pass/enter", " Go back to the Shadow/abyss", " Fall into nothingness". Actually, it would have been more appropriate, IMHO, to send the Barlog to the abyss (the one in front of him) and the Witch-King to the Shadow (of Mordor). But well, perhaps poor stressed Gandalf couldn't think straight. :D

Differences:

1. The Barlog made no answer, while the WK called him "Old fool" twice, informed Gandalf that it was HIS hour, and added some intimidating bits of his own. :p

2. Have you noticed that when addressing the WK, Gandalf skips introducing himself? He says to the Barlog ...`I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor", but doesn't tell anything like that to the WK. And the WK didn't ask him "Who are you to dare to face me?". Therefore, it seems likely that the WK knew full well who was facing him, and Gandalf knew that he knew, if you get my meaning. :)

If I may return again to the earlier version of the story published in HOME 8, the Wizard King and Gandalf not only knew about each other, but they knew each other personally very well - they had been wizards of the same order.

As the LOTR stands now, the Witch-King and Gandalf had no way to know each other personally, as when Gandalf appeared in ME in TA 1000, the Witch-King had been nazgul for about 2500 years. The passage above is the same in the draft and the final LOTR text. So now it seems a bit strange that Gandalf didn't tell the WK who he was. But then again, maybe Gandalf introduced himself when he was besieged at Weathertop? :)

[Valandil]

About Gothmog
I agree with CS that Gothmog must have been a nazgul. No orc surely, he held too high a position, similar to the Mouth of Sauron, Leutenant of the Dark Tower. Orcs sometimes commanded orcs (like Shagrat of Cirith Ungol) but hardly any orc ever commanded Men. And from the quote above, we see that Gothmog has become the head of the Mordor army with authority over Easterlings, Variags and Southrons. Alternatively, he could be a mortal Man, but I doubt that in the city of the Ringwraiths a motral Man could hold higher position than 6 of the resident nazgul.


Very sound arguments. However - also possible that the Nazgul were sort of a special breed apart, more or less. That they weren't burdened with too much of the operational aspects of the forces in the Tower, so that they were freed up to do what they did best. In this case, even the Morgul Lord's position as captain could only be a courtesy or something - and the real running of the Tower was left in the hands of his lieutenant, either Orc or Human.

You're also right about how Gothmog took command of the whole battle operation though, including command over Men. And it's hard for me to imagine a Man hanging out with those Orcs there - though possible.

I wonder too though, if he WAS a Nazgul, and if the other Nazgul also stayed on the field, why the rest of the day just turned into a big 'mop-up' operation.

I think it's more likely you're right though - just looking at it from the other side.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You're also right about how Gothmog took command of the whole battle operation though, including command over Men. And it's hard for me to imagine a Man hanging out with those Orcs there - though possible.
It wasn't that rare. Remember Wormtounge was reportedly seen travelling to Isengard with a group of Orcs.

What would also be interesting to know is how many Nazgûl were actually present at the battle.
Khamûl was presumably in Dol Guldur fighting the elves and perhaps there was another with him. There was at least one left in Mordor, for it took over Cirith Ungol after Frodo and Sam's escape.

[CrazySquirrel]

Gandalf's intimidating repertoire seems rather restricted. "You cannot pass/enter", " Go back to the Shadow/abyss", " Fall into nothingness". Actually, it would have been more appropriate, IMHO, to send the Barlog to the abyss (the one in front of him) and the Witch-King to the Shadow (of Mordor). But well, perhaps poor stressed Gandalf couldn't think straight. :D

:D :D very true! :D

[Gordis]

However - also possible that the Nazgul were sort of a special breed apart, more or less. That they weren't burdened with too much of the operational aspects of the forces in the Tower, so that they were freed up to do what they did best. Like what? drinking and cavorting? :eek: :rolleyes:

In this case, even the Morgul Lord's position as captain could only be a courtesy or something - and the real running of the Tower was left in the hands of his lieutenant, either Orc or Human.
Given the Morgul Lord's past record in Angmar, and the fact that he ruled Minas Morgul for 1000 years while Sauron was in Dol Guldur, his position as captain was hardly honorary. Consider also what was said about him in LOTR But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and the world had turned against him; victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons That is clear that he was the one who devised the assault on Gondor, who really was in command, and not a scary marionette.

In one thing you are right, the Morgul lord might have had an underling (a Man) who was running the day-to day life in Minas Morgul, and was in charge of supplies, housing, guard duty, checked that orcs washed latrines regularly :D and so on.

But this was not Gothmog, as Gothmog assumed the command of the whole Mordor Army, including allied forces, Southrons and Easterlings and even half-trolls from Khand. And there were kings (!) among the allies. They would have hardly accepted some unknown Man from Minas Morgul. He must have had unquestionable authority, most likely, he had the duty of Second-in command of the Army from the start of the campaign. Nay, he must have been a nazgul.

And it's hard for me to imagine a Man hanging out with those Orcs there - though possible. You mean in Minas Morgul? There were lots of Men, remember the Morgul cavalry? Orcs don't ride horses
And out of the gate an army came. All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows

I wonder too though, if he WAS a Nazgul, and if the other Nazgul also stayed on the field, why the rest of the day just turned into a big 'mop-up' operation.
It was not mop-up until the coming of Aragorn. No one foresaw it. And no wonder the nazgul were demoralized. Their Captain, who commanded them for 4500 years, was killed.

What would also be interesting to know is how many Nazgûl were actually present at the battle.
Khamûl was presumably in Dol Guldur fighting the elves and perhaps there was another with him. There was at least one left in Mordor, for it took over Cirith Ungol after Frodo and Sam's escape.
TD must be right, 2 nazgul (Khamul + another) must have been in Dol-Guldur, as exactly on the same day -15.03 both Lorien and Thranduil were attacked. Perhaps, even three nazgul were dispatched North.

So we have 5-6 remaining nazgul.

One was in Mordor - just before dawn he came to Cirith Ungol and REMAINED there in charge of the tower.

Another flew to Mordor from Pelennor while hobbits were running from Cirith Ungol:
They started off again. They had not gone far when Frodo paused. ‘There’s a Black Rider over us,’ he said. ‘I can feel it. We had better keep still for a while.’ Crouched under a great boulder they sat facing back westward and did not speak for some time. Then Frodo breathed a sigh of relief. ‘It’s passed,’ he said. They stood up, and then they both stared in wonder. Away to their left, southward, against a sky that was turning grey, the peaks and high ridges of the great range began to appear dark and black, visible shapes. Light was growing behind them.
Perhaps, this one was dispatched by the Witch-King to Sauron to complain about the unexpected light.

Then comes the third nazgul - again from Pelennor to Mordor:
As Frodo and Sam stood and gazed, the rim of light spread all along the line of the Ephel Dúath, and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West, at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ring-wraiths had met his doom.
This one brought the news of the Witch-King's demise.

So 5-3=2
If Gothmog was one of the two, then only one another is unaccounted for.
- Maybe he was sent with the news of the coming of Aragorn? Or he simply remained in charge in Minas Morgul?

[

[Forkbeard]

The Ride of the Rohirrim
1. Why did Elfhelm allow Eowyn and Merry to travel with his company? Did he only know about Merry, and think that Eowyn was indeed ‘Dernhelm’ – perhaps a lone rider from a distant part of the land? Or did he know both about Merry and about Eowyn?

Very nice job Val! I haven't been around much lately, so have several chapters to catch up on, but I'll start here and go backwards as I have time.

I suspect that Elfhelm was more or less ordered to allow Dernhelm to accompany them. Eowyn after all outranked him, and she probably pointed out that in this desperate hour every sword was needed and she was coming whether he said yes or not.

2. Was Merry the ONLY one who didn’t realize that Dernhelm was really Eowyn?
No. Theoden, Eomer, etc didn't recognize her either when she approaches them just before the charge.

More importantly though, generally on the march cavalry travels in a column and from the description Tolkien gives I think this is true here as well. If so, it is unlikely that even all of Elfhelm's eored knew, at least until they camped, and probably not beyond that eored. No one but the rider next to Dernhelm would have seen Merry, and maybe the two in front, and with her helmet on and her hair under the helmet, and armor riding to war no one would've noticed the obvious womanly features of Eowyn.

3. What do you think about the situation of Ghan-buri-Ghan’s people? They were apparently hunted down by men of Rohan and/or Gondor – but they were willing to ally with them against the forces of Mordor. Sort of a “My enemy’s enemy is my ally” pragmatism. But why would they have more hatred for a new foe than the ones who had pursued them for so long?

I think Tolkien didn't quite think this one through enough. There isn't any evidence that the Gondorans hunted them, only the Rohirrim. Yet, the Anorien Forest is in Gondor, well within the borders of Anorien, so why are the Rohirrim hunting Wose's in Gondor so far from home?

In any case, it tells you something about Sauron that they remembered the Dark Years of the Second Age and considered them less desireable than the occasional persecution (too strong?) from the Rohirrim. But Sauron and company are not a new foe, Ghan even tells us that they fear a return of the Dark Years as an evil time, and they aren't that far from Mordor so they surely would be eventually discovered, enslaved and so destroyed.

4. How did those people of the Druadin Forest both survive and stay separate all those many years, so close to Gondor’s chief city?

Staying separate is the easy part. Their size and dress would make them undesireable as marriage partners for Gondor and Rohan alike; there might have been exceptions, but by and large it was easy to stay separate.

Survival is another question. But Anorien doesn't ever seem to have been densely populated, so while there seems to have been plenty of trade and travel to and from Rohan, it doesn't seem like either kingdom had ever grown enough in that direction to be a real threat to the Anorien forest. At least that's my impression.

5. What do you think of Theoden bursting the horn as he blew it?

a) shows his renewed vigor b) foreshadows his being out front of the charge and c) also foreshadows his death, the only other horn in LoTR I can recall being blown is also shattered: Boromir's and I suppose one could stretch it and say that this is the answering call for Boromir's horn...but that last is a stretch.

6. Comment on that quoted description of Theoden – especially the usages of imagery and color.
Its a fabulous piece of poetic prose!! And of course all the good colors: newness in the green, heroic gold shining in the sun (as shields should, if they're for the good guys), Snowmane's name calls to mind snow, white, another good color, and of course darkness is chased away. Great stuff!!

I'll try and address some answers to the other questions too later. Must go have fun with my furry children in the snow

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But this was not Gothmog, as Gothmog assumed the command of the whole Mordor Army, including allied forces, Southrons and Easterlings and even half-trolls from Khand. And there were kings (!) among the allies. They would have hardly accepted some unknown Man from Minas Morgul. He must have had unquestionable authority, most likely, he had the duty of Second-in command of the Army from the start of the campaign. Nay, he must have been a nazgul.
I disagree. A black numenorean would probably have commanded the authroity of Sauron's troops. Sauron's lieutenant was a man, and not a Nazgûl, and he would surely have commanded authority of Sauron's armies, Gothmog could have been another Black Numenorean.

[Valandil]

Forkbeard - great answers!

I would not have thought of Boromir blowing his horn for the last time being connected with Theoden blowing the horn here, but a very interesting parallel.

BTW - when I ask if Merry was the only one who didn't recognize Dernhelm for Eowyn - I really meant of those within Elfhelm's company.

[Serenoli]

5. Any comments on Eomer’s reaction to seeing Eowyn? Why did he assume she was dead, instead of checking, like Prince Imrahil would do?

Eomer perhaps doubted his siter's ability in the fierce battle, and did not think she could have survived. And he had just seen Theoden die, so maybe he was a bit desperate, and accepted that she was dead without checking.

[Forkbeard]

[QUOTE=Valandil]The Ride of the Rohirrim and The Battle of Pelennor Fields


The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
1. Now that it has just ended, how is Gandalf’s confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith like/unlike his earlier confrontation with the Balrog of Moria?

HMMM. In both, Gandalf is preventing the passage of an enemy. But there the similarity ends. In Moria, they are trying to escape, in Minas Tirith they are trying to prevent invasion and being overrun. In Moria, the confrontation is more intense and both fall. In MT, they are just beginning to ramp up the tension when both are taken away by other calls on the battlefield. I think we readers are meant to note these similarities and differences though....

2. Note the Nazgul’s cry of hatred as his mace fell and broke Eowyn’s shield. Normal Nazgul cry – like the Hobbits have heard since they were in the Shire? A spell?

More likely just the intimidating sounds one makes in battle.

3. Who killed the Lord of the Nazgul – Merry or Eowyn?

Both. I would have once argued for Merry as being the more important. But I changed my mind after some reconsideration. The scene is modeled on the scene in Beowulf where Beowulf and Wiglaf kill the dragon. Wiglaf cowers in fear, as Beowulf is burned and severely wounded. Wiglaf for love of his lord recovers his senses and comes up and stabs the dragon down low in the belly, and then Beo deals the final blow, if I recall on the head though I wouldn't swear to the last detail and am too lazy at the moment to check. But the parallels there are obvious and it is apparent that both Beo and Wiglaf were instrumental in the slaying of the dragon. Likewise, I think Tolkien is saying the same thing.


4. Comment on the ‘Warrior Culture’ of the Rohirrim – in particular with the words spoken as they go into battle, and the final words of Theoden to both Merry and Eomer, as well as Eomer’s response.

These are the Northmen. I could talk about the heroic ethos or "warrior culture" til doomsday: but the Rohirrim are the Tolkien world's Beowulf's and Njal's and Eric Bloodaxe: in them we meet a fictionalization of the Germanic warriors we meet especially in Old English and Old Norse texts.

5. Any comments on Eomer’s reaction to seeing Eowyn? Why did he assume she was dead, instead of checking, like Prince Imrahil would do?

A) Theoden was dead B) no one had ever battled the Witch King before and lived C) she lay as though dead and barely breathed, little enough that only the "mirror" test gave sufficient proof that she was alive. But to the first and second glances, she lie as though dead and looked dead. Hence Eomer's reaction. Imrahil was more experienced and older: Eomer is one of the good guys but he is young and brash. Note also that the other men of Rohan also assume that she is dead.

6. Who / what was Gothmog – the lieutenant of Morgul: Man, Orc, Nazgul, Other?

Unknown for certain. I find it unlikely that an orc would be given such a position. I find it equally unlikely that a Nazgul would be this lieutenant. The one thing that gets me is the name....it doesn't fit any of the Nazgul or Men, even Tolkien himself was confused about the other Gothmog in the Sim, a Balrog who commanded Morgoth's army and was almost equal to Sauron. So this Gothmog seems a hold over and imitation of that one, and I find that in that case it is unlikely to be a Nazgul. Balrog is to Sauron and Morgoth as Black Numenorean is to Nazgul. Or so I think at the moment.

[Gordis]

[6. Who / what was Gothmog – the lieutenant of Morgul: Man, Orc, Nazgul, Other?

The one thing that gets me is the name....it doesn't fit any of the Nazgul or Men, even Tolkien himself was confused about the other Gothmog in the Sim, a Balrog who commanded Morgoth's army and was almost equal to Sauron. So this Gothmog seems a hold over and imitation of that one, and I find that in that case it is unlikely to be a Nazgul. Balrog is to Sauron and Morgoth as Black Numenorean is to Nazgul. Or so I think at the moment.
IMHO "Gothmog" is hardly a name a loving mom and dad would give their newborn child.

Suppose Gothmog II was a mortal Man. Even if the parents were late Third Age Black Numenoreans - Morgoth worshippers, the name is too lofty for even a very noble Black Numenorean child. As Forkbeard points out, Gothmog the First had been almost equal (and maybe equal?) to Sauron. Who knows if the two Maiar, Morgoth's lieutenants, were on good terms back in the First age? The parents wouldn't risk the Dark Lord's displeasure naming their child after such a high being.

Suppose Gothmog II was a nazgul. The parents would be mid-Second Age Men, at the time when very few, or none of the Numenoreans worshipped Morgoth. The ME "barbarian" natives often did, it seems, but I am not sure that the "barbarians" would have enough knowledge of old lore to know about Gothmog I.

So, most likely, it was NOT a name received at birth. IMHO Gothmog II earned his name as a reward by his long service to the Dark Lord. And that more likely makes him a nazgul, than one of the mortal servants.

As for the nazgul names, we know but one - Khamul, the Shadow of the East.
But I have a suspicion, that Khamul actually translates as "Eastern Shadow" "Kha-" like in "Khand" meaning "East" . If I am right, than it must be the name that Khamul got while he was already a nazgul, not his birth-name.

Very probably all of the nazgul in the course of their very long lives got many names, much like Olorin-Mithrandir-Gandalf-Incanus, or Aragorn-Strider-Thorongil-Elessar

So, I think, the name itself gives us few clues, only shows the wielder's high status, which we know already, as he was second in command in the Mordorian army.

Though, of course, it doesn't fit somehow that one of the cold nazgul would be named after a fiery Barlog... Hmm...

[Rían]

IMHO "Gothmog" is hardly a name a loving mom and dad would give their newborn child. LOL! :D

Very probably all of the nazgul in the course of their very long lives got many names, much like Olorin-Mithrandir-Gandalf-Incanus, or Aragorn-Strider-Thorongil-Elessar Yes, I imagine that's the case. Oh, those multiple names!

[Earniel]

I arrive overly later at the party, but I've promised myself I'd finish the chapter discussion, years after date if I must. :D

Why did Elfhelm allow Eowyn and Merry to travel with his company? Did he only know about Merry, and think that Eowyn was indeed ‘Dernhelm’ – perhaps a lone rider from a distant part of the land? Or did he know both about Merry and about Eowyn?
I guess we'll never quite pin down why Elfhelm let Eowyn join. The text said Merry thought there seemed to be some agreement between the two, so I can't quite imagine Elfhelm not recognizing Eowyn for who she was.

She must have said something to convince him to let her come. I doubt Eowyn would have pulled rank on him, all he then would have to do is inform Theoden or Eomer of her presence. The fact that he didn't seem to imply indeed some agreement on his part. Would he have let her come strictly on the basis of her martial skills? Perhaps out of pity, because her death-wish must have been obvious to anyone if Merry could pick it up too. Plenty of room for speculation.

Was Merry the ONLY one who didn’t realize that Dernhelm was really Eowyn?
I doubt the entire Eored knew. Perhaps of Merry, since he would be hard to miss. But Eowyn's presence may have been known only to a few. She kept to herself and she could have passed easily for a young warrior.

What do you think about the situation of Ghan-buri-Ghan’s people? They were apparently hunted down by men of Rohan and/or Gondor – but they were willing to ally with them against the forces of Mordor. Sort of a “My enemy’s enemy is my ally” pragmatism. But why would they have more hatred for a new foe than the ones who had pursued them for so long?
I suppose the opportunity of the moment also had a role to play. Here was Theoden, 'father of the horselords', right in Druadan Forest, approachable and reachable. Ghan-buri-Ghan may never have had a better opportunity to make his wishes and the plight of his people known to the 'highest authority' of Rohan.

It can also be possible that the dark years Ghan-buri-Ghan and his people remembered were far worse than the recent, possibly sporadic hunting by the rohirrim. The rohirrim would then be the lesser of two evils.

The rohirrim were also in need of help, Ghan-buri-Ghan would have had less trouble to reason with them than with the orcs and forces of Mordor that had come as an invading force.

How did those people of the Druadin Forest both survive and stay separate all those many years, so close to Gondor’s chief city?
Druadan Forest seems quite large on its own, so avoiding detection would be relatively easy, especially when it's about a people that are so attuned to forest life. And it still lies at a considerable distance from Minas Tirith, I'd be tempted to say Osgiliath even would have been closer than Minas Tirith. The people of the city obviously didn't have to go as far as Druadan Forest. The only thing of interest there would be the trade-road and the beacons, which the woses would naturally avoid. Although I suppose rumours and legends about the inhabiting wood sprites may have kept adventurers away from it as well.

Now that it has just ended, how is Gandalf’s confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith like/unlike his earlier confrontation with the Balrog of Moria?
In the confrontation with the Balrog, neither could back down. The Balrog couldn't back down because he was on his own turf and up to this point he had the advantage. Gandalf couldn't back down and risk the capture of the Fellowship.

In the confrontation at the gate of Minas Tirith, the idea that a confrontation is inevitable is less present. Before a first blow between the two is delivered, the Witch-King is called away by the sound of horns and Gandalf is needed at Denethor's barbecue. Neither had at that moment the time to press their point.

Any comments on Eomer’s reaction to seeing Eowyn? Why did he assume she was dead, instead of checking, like Prince Imrahil would do?
I'd cite cultural differences. The Gondoreans had retained some of the Numenorean lore and seemed more learned in matters of healing. They also had had dealings with nazgul before and may therefore have been more aware of the possible side-effects of fighting the Witch-King. Imrahil, having claim to some Elven inheritage, may also have been more perceptable to little clues of life than Eomer who had already spent quite while in battle.