something i was wondering

[Lenwë Lossëhelin]

if there's a Middle Earth...do you think there is a North Earth? or South, East, and West? hmm....i was just thinking about that one day while being bored in school. because thats what i do when im bored...i think about lord of the rings!!! :p :D

[Wayfarer]

Not really.

The term 'middle earth' doesn't actually refer to the geographic 'middle of the earth' - the actual setting is in the north-westernmost corner of the world, so that wouldn't even make sense. 'Middle Earth' is just the term used to apply to the world of mortals in general, similar to Midgard of norse myth.

[Findegil]

Soory, but I must disagree. Middle-Earth is not only what we see on the maps in "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Silmarillion". Middle-Earth is the name of that part of Arda that lies between Belegear and the Eastern See. Thus there is Valinor which we could name Western-Earth and the Land of the Sun which could be names Eastern-Earth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Earniel]

Funnily enough I've been wondering about that too once in a while. :) Not about a possible East- or West-earth, but more in the direction of: could there also be an Upper-earth or Nether-earth? In the norse myhtology there is.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Soory, but I must disagree. Middle-Earth is not only what we see on the maps in "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Silmarillion". Middle-Earth is the name of that part of Arda that lies between Belegear and the Eastern See. Thus there is Valinor which we could name Western-Earth and the Land of the Sun which could be names Eastern-Earth.

Respectfully
FindegilI agree with this.

[Merenwen Vardamir]

Funnily enough I've been wondering about that too once in a while. :) Not about a possible East- or West-earth, but more in the direction of: could there also be an Upper-earth or Nether-earth? In the norse myhtology there is.

I was wondering that as well... Is there any reason why this all took place in Middle Earth?

[Lenwë Lossëhelin]

i dont know...
and if Middle Earth is the realm of men....i wonder what upper earth would be? the realm of the Valar maybe? and nether earth could be the realm of morgoth...i dont know

[Merenwen Vardamir]

i dont know...
and if Middle Earth is the realm of men....i wonder what upper earth would be? the realm of the Valar maybe? and nether earth could be the realm of morgoth...i dont know
Fun thought.... I get to live with the Elves! Or go to sea with Legolas. *Dreamy eyed* lol

[Findegil]

It took place in Middle-Earth (mainly, some things are reproted from beyonde the western sea) because that was the original habitation of the Elves and Men.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Merenwen Vardamir]

I think this thread... is dieing...... :'( I was wondering... I got nothing.... umm.... I must keep Lenwe's thread alive! *Hysterical* What- What- What- *Cries* Why do Dwarves and Elves hate each other? (I'm trying to help....)

[Curubethion]

"Middle-Earth" is Tolkien's counterpart to the Norse "Midgard". Here's a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midgard). From the source:
"Midgard is the realm of the humans in Norse mythology. Pictured as placed somewhere in the middle of Yggdrasil, Midgard is surrounded by a world of water or ocean, which is impassable. The ocean is inhabited by the great sea serpent Jormungand, who is so huge that he encircles the world entirely, grasping his own tail."
In Tolkien's original conception, the Earth (including the Undying Lands, etc.) was a Viking ship floating in the sea of the Void. Above it was the dome of the Stars. I don't have a quote with me right now...

[Jon S.]

There is a sort of "middle earth" concept in Hebrew (Judeo-Christian) mythology (term used here in the sociological sense), as well:

God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the water, that it may separate water from water. God made the expanse and it separated the water which was below the expanse from the water which was above the expanse."

The "water which was above the expanse" suggests a vault or dome over the earth, which people couldn't reach, beyond which the Divine dwelt (somewhat analogous to Valinor, I suppose). It was still water, though - e.g., when Noah's flood came, "And the flood-gates of the sky broke open," i.e., the dome breached and the water above came tumbling down through the sky as heavy rain.

The expanse itself was the sky.

The area below the expanse eventually became "middle earth" where men and women live - "Let the water below the sky be gathered into one area, that the dry land may appear."

Since water flows down due to the effects of gravity, this would literally make the world of the Hebraic creation myth a 4-level world: (1) the water above the expanse; (2) the sky; (3) the dry land where people dwell ("middle earth"); and (4) the water below the expanse (the oceans/"deeps").

[Merenwen Vardamir]

Somebody keep the thread going!!

[Lotesse]

In order to keep a thread open, one must actually carry on a conversation with other interesrted parties within the context of the topic at hand of said thread. One has to answer or comment upon what another has said, you know, a conversation. Additionally, one cannot really consider a thread "dead" until it has received absolutely NO attention for more than a few weeks, not just a day or two. So, therte's no need to panic, silly goose! :) Welcome to Entmoot, BTW!

I always figured Middle-Earth was an extra planet within our solar system, like an invisible, very small living planet which is mostly water, with Middle Earth like a gi-normous island, and a couple other continent-like islands there too, that perhaps had not been explored by elves or men yet and maybe have aboriginal-type peoples on it or a race of talking, self-governed animals or something... anyway, it's too early in the morning to be thinking this much.

[Merenwen Vardamir]

Tehe... I'm a silly goose..... Hehehehe. Very detailed responce. I might just be prone to over-reacting.... lol. Lenwe... do I over-react?

[brownjenkins]

if you read lost tales 1&2 (tolkien's first thoughts on his "world"), his idea was to introduce a new "fairy tale" or mythology into the world of british folklore... one unique to them, much like the norse have the eddas

some of the earliest tales actually involved travel from the british isles themselves... so, in a very rough sense, middle earth is europe in a much earlier time

his ideas changed a lot over time, and i don't think he ever intended a direct comparision... but he did base his ideas around this analogy, as opposed to just completely "making it up"

[Lenwë Lossëhelin]

yeah..i have read the book of lost tales 1 ...and i gave it to Merenwen (and yes you do over react by the way lol) i thought it was really good...and im wanting to get the second one. is it good?

[durinsbane2244]

here's a thought, the entire map we see in the LotR is just the western tip of Middle Earth, just how big is it?

[Lenwë Lossëhelin]

yeah i've always wondered what was east of Mordor on the map...hmm..

[Merenwen Vardamir]

Now can I panic about the thread being dead? I wish I knew what to put to start conversation again..... What do you guys think is going to happen in Harry Potter 7? (Or am I not allowed to ask about HP on a LOTR thread? O.O)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Now can I panic about the thread being dead? I wish I knew what to put to start conversation again..... What do you guys think is going to happen in Harry Potter 7? (Or am I not allowed to ask about HP on a LOTR thread? O.O)You are not allowed to ask about HP in any of the Tolkien forums. There is a HP forum for that. Also, you are not allowed to spam. All threads have a natural course. Some live longer than others. You may not post nonsense for the sole purpose of keeping a thread active. Please discuss the thread topic or do not post.

Please familiarize yourself with Entmoot's posting policies and rules, located at the top of the main page of the General Messages forum. :)

[Radagast The Brown]

Edit - cross posted with SGH..

[Merenwen Vardamir]

That's sad. :( Well.... That didn't help the thread. Lol. I know I'm wondering something, but when I actually get to the computer, I forget. :( Okay, what happens to the elves after they sail to the un-dieing lands? Do they just kind of exist forever on an island or something?

[Sister Golden Hair]

That's sad. :( Well.... That didn't help the thread. Lol. I know I'm wondering something, but when I actually get to the computer, I forget. :( Okay, what happens to the elves after they sail to the un-dieing lands? Do they just kind of exist forever on an island or something?Well, your question is somewhat off topic, but to answer it: The Undying lands (Valinor) was removed from the circles of the world. At the end of the Third Age, the Elves sailed to Tol Eressea, which was a large island created by the upheavals of the destruction of the Lamps of the Valar. At one time, Tol Eressea was the easternmost point of the Undying lands and its western shore was bathed in the light of the Two Trees. The Elves die not until the world dies.

[Sister Golden Hair]

if there's a Middle Earth...do you think there is a North Earth? or South, East, and West? hmm....i was just thinking about that one day while being bored in school. because thats what i do when im bored...i think about lord of the rings!!! :p :DFrom the Complete Guide to Middle-earth by Robert Foster:

MIDDLE-EARTH-The lands of Arda lying east of Belegaer, extending at least as far south and east as Harad and Rhun. In volume II, #2, page 1 of the Tolkien Journal, Henry Resnick quotes Tolkien as saying: "Middle-earth is Europe". However, this seems to mean only that Europe and the setting of the events in LotRs are related.

Middle-earth in the First and Second Ages included Cuivienen an Hildorien and probably all of the lands north of Beleriand and Eriador as far as Ekkaia. But in the very far east in the Elder Days there were inner seas seperating Middle-earth from something else, perhaps the Empty Lands. In the south there may have been lands which, if they were part of Middle-earth, were ignored by geographers and mariners. The Change of the World at the downfall of Numenor damaged the coasts of Middle-earth but apparently did not alter its boundries.

[Landroval]

At the end of the Third Age, the Elves sailed to Tol Eressea, which was a large island created by the upheavals of the destruction of the Lamps of the Valar.
According to Of Eldamar and the princes of Eldalie, Silmarillion, Ulmo and his servants uprooted an island and used it to bring the the elves to Valinor; when the Teleri "voyagers" were about to reach Eldamar, Osse called them back, missing their presence on the shores of Middle-Earth - and the elves asked Ulmo to stay their voyage. Afterwards, it received the name Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle.

[Sister Golden Hair]

According to Of Eldamar and the princes of Eldalie, Silmarillion, Ulmo and his servants uprooted an island and used it to bring the the elves to Valinor; when the Teleri "voyagers" were about to reach Eldamar, Osse called them back, missing their presence on the shores of Middle-Earth - and the elves asked Ulmo to stay their voyage. Afterwards, it received the name Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle.Yes indeedy Landroval. :)

Originally located in the middle of Belegaer, the island was uprooted by Ulmo and brought to the Bay of Balar to transport the Eldar to Aman. On its first mooring, during which the Vanyar and Noldor boarded it, a portion of the island grounded and broke off to form the Isle of Balar.

After conveying the Vanyar and Noldor to Aman, Ulmo returned for the Teleri. During the course of this second voyage Osse begged Ulmo not to take these Elves away from his home in the Sea, and so Ulmo Anchored the island in the Bay of Eldamar, where it received its name.

[Merenwen Vardamir]

How is it off topic? It's LOTR and 'something I was wondering'. ?.? But, what did they do until the end of the world? It seems like it'd be rather boring.... :(

[Sister Golden Hair]

How is it off topic? It's LOTR and 'something I was wondering'. ?.? But, what did they do until the end of the world? It seems like it'd be rather boring.... :(It is off topic because the thread is about Middle-earth geographics, not the Elves and where they went. Because it is LotRs or the Silmarillion doesn't mean you can just talk about whatever involves it. That is why there are different threads, different topics and different forums. Each thread consists of a specific topic. That is what is discussed. Although All topics may pertain to LotRs, discussion is centered on a particular area which is the topic of the opening post.

[Merenwen Vardamir]

You're so mean. :( Sorry. Where does it say what thread's discuss which things? I take the Middle Earth part as anything pertaining to Middle Earth.....

[juggernut60]

ya the middle earth is an amazing place where magical people get together and talk about taking over the world along with those pesky lawn gnomes~ :D

[trolls' bane]

You're so mean. :( Sorry. Where does it say what thread's discuss which things? I take the Middle Earth part as anything pertaining to Middle Earth.....
Actually, she is right...this forum is for Middle Earth in general. There is a forum for specific LotR books, one for the movies, and (isn't there one more I'm forgetting?)
And HP has it's own forum. It's not sad, really, you'll be able to increase your post count by one if you go post an HP thread asking whatever you asked, if there isn't already one...I don't go to that forum very often. HAven't read the books in years.

Well, for me to stay on-topic,
I don't think there are garden gnomes in Middle Earth. Must be an upper earth thing. *scratches head**blink**nervous twitch**sinister plot*

[Merenwen Vardamir]

Yeah, I know about the HP forum. lol. Thanx though. I was just trying to keep the thread going. But I did technically ask if I was allowed to post HP on LOTR. Now I know I'm not. But I feel bad because I got yelled at. :( I'm sorry to everyone! Don't de-moot me! Please!

[Merenwen Vardamir]

ya the middle earth is an amazing place where magical people get together and talk about taking over the world along with those pesky lawn gnomes~ :D
Those Lawn Gnomes are trouble. lol. And now they're working with a band of Sunday Papers. lol.

[juggernut60]

yes sunday morning papers are evil. so back to lotr, who is your favorite character?

[Sister Golden Hair]

People please stop making nonsense posts and stay on topic. There are other threads that discuss "your favorite characters".

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=11309&highlight=Favorite+characters

This topic is about Middle-earth geography.

Anymore nonsense or off topic posts will result in this thread being closed.

[Merenwen Vardamir]

Apoligies SGH. :) **Cough-Legolas-Cough** Lol. Sorry. So, what exactly is the topic now?

[Sister Golden Hair]

This is the topic:

Originally posted by Lenwë Lossëhelin

if there's a Middle Earth...do you think there is a North Earth? or South, East, and West?

[Merenwen Vardamir]

We already talked about that though...... Can the topic never ever change??

[Lotesse]

Oh my god - Don't you GET it?? :rolleyes: Quit spamming and bugging, just to "keep a thread alive." Do yourself and everyone else here a favour and kindly READ the things SGH has so patiently explained to you here. I KNOW that you must know how a messageboard works.

:) :) :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

We already talked about that though...... Can the topic never ever change??No, not in this thread. Now do you see what I have been trying to explain to you? Each thread consists of a particular topic that is discussed. Anything outside of that topic is off topic. If we didn't do it that way, we would just have one huge, long rambling, chaotic thread discussing a million different things. If you want to talk about something specifically relating to Middle-earth that isn't related to this topic, then you do a search to make sure that a thread doesn't already exist on the topic. If it does, then you post in that thread, if not, then create a new thread. If your topic of interest only pertains to LotRs then post it in the LotRs forum. If it only concerns the Hobbit, post it in the Hobbit forum. If it is the Silmarillion, then post it in the Silmarillion forum, and so on. This forum is for discussion of Middle-earth, which may include subjects that pertain to all the books including the Histories of Middle-earth series.

For example: Talking about Elves, Dwarves, Men, Orcs, would be acceptable, because these are in all the books. However, there has to be a specific topic created for discussion to flow smoothly, and only that topic can be discussed in that thread.

Now, let's say you just wish to talk about Legolas; that would be better suited to the LotRs forum. But let's say you wish to talk about Legolas' line and the Sindar; that would be a Middle-earth forum topic, because then it is broader in discussion and could involve other Tolkien works.

Let's say you wish to discuss Gimli. That is for the LotRs forum. But let's discuss Gimli's descendants; that is broader, and so on.

I can't make it any clearer.

And with that said:

Closing.