The Silmarillion

[Glanecia]

I quickly picked up The Silmarillion in the bookstore, the other day. I read maybe three sentences, and then it was time to go... :(

anyways, I'm wondering, can anyone tell me...how would you rate this book? I loved the trilogy...would I like this one too?

[Lotesse]

Ciao, Glanecia! You're brand-new here, huh? Welcome 2 the Moot! The sil is one of those tomes that one really has to make themselves get into, because they want the history & background and details of Tolkien's fantasy world. I have a hard time really wading through it, too, sometimes, I mean I bought the Sil like almost a year ago and still haven't read but a few chapters. But if you truly love Tolkien, it's a gem, to be sure. There's a lot of Silmarillion nutz here in the Moot who could give you better answers than I. :)

[Elanor]

It took me 3 tries to read this book. I love the beginning, but I kept getting bogged down right after Feanor swears his oath and the Noldori go to Middle Earth. But if you can slog through the war stuff, it gets interesting again. :)

[Arien the Maia]

I second what Elanor said...it takes about 3 times to really LOVE it...at least it did for me...it's now my favorite of Tolkien's works. I would plow through it ten go back and read LotR again then the Sil then Lotr then the Sil again...with enough time in between that you can really enjoy reading the books each time :)

[Earniel]

The Silmarillion is very different from the Lord of the Rings (LoTR) trilogy. It is more fragmented and written in a different style, more like an anthology of short stories. The Silmarillion also spans a lot more time than the LoTR, and deals with a lot more characters (some also have similar names) so sometimes it can be difficult to keep up. You need to keep your head with it.

Whether you will like the Silmarillion is completely up to personal preference. Personally, I had no problem with getting through the book, although it took me at least another re-read to fully grasp all the characters and events.

I can tell you this, though: If you liked the Elves in LoTR and the Hobbit, be prepared for a surprise! :)

[brownjenkins]

the best book ever written! :D

i'm a big fan of mythology (greek, norse, hindu, christian, etc.), and it is very much in that style... grand tales that are far less personal than the lotr

i think it is very rewarding, but it certainly takes some time (and re-reading) to fully appreciate

if you are having a hard time, i suggest skipping forward and reading the tale of beren and luthien... it is one of the best in the book and might get you interested enough to want to read the rest :)

[Rían]

It's definitely not a pick-up-lightly-and-scan book! But to those who stick with it, it is WELL worth it. You might even need to take notes with some of the elvish names - there's a lot of names that start with "F" and it's easy to lose track of who is who.

Brownie's advice to skip ahead and read Beren and Luthien is good, IMO.

and Earniel is right - it will just blow away the concept of elves that you probably got from LOTR and the Hobbit!

It is a deep, gorgeous work, and worth the effort.

[Elanor]

Let's list all the F names, just for fun. ;) I'll start.

Finwe, Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod, Finarfin...

[Lotesse]

Feanor's the best elf of all! Any Sil stories & passages about this complex, brilliant yet flawed, intense mega-elf are fascinating reading to me. I have a thing 4 Feanor... :rolleyes: :D

[Rían]

Let's list all the F names, just for fun. ;) I'll start.

Finwe, Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod, Finarfin...Good idea, Elanor!

You have "Finrod", but remember, it's also "Finrod "Felagund" :D

Hmm, Finduilas ...

I guess that's most of the major "F" names, but it's just that they're all in the same family, so you lose track of who is who.

Then there's names like Fingon and Turgon (brothers), Elwë and Olwë (brothers), Angrod and Aegnor (brothers), Galadriel and Gil-Galad, Eärendil who marries Elwing and their kids are Elrond and Elros. And all of them have multiple names!

And my all-time personal favorite - Fëanor's two youngest sons, who were twins, were named by their mother "Ambarussa" and ... "Ambarussa" ! Yes, you read it right - the SAME name! (But that info isn't in the Sil, it's in one of the History of Middle Earth books.) They called each other those names, too, but they had several other names (most elves did) that were different from each other.

Anyway, don't let this scare you away :) It's a fabulous read, and most of us had trouble getting through it at first, then just LOVED it and have read it many times. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It took me 3 tries to read this book. I love the beginning, but I kept getting bogged down right after Feanor swears his oath and the Noldori go to Middle Earth. But if you can slog through the war stuff, it gets interesting again. :)
I found it the other way round. It was harder for me to read up to 'Of Fëanor' but after that I loved it. Then again, I was only 11 when I first read Ainulindale!

Glanecia, IMO it's better than the trilogy. When I first read it I couldn't remember much of what happened, but when I re-read it I fell in love with it.
I also agree with Rian. There is a period of about five chapters, beginning with Beren and Luthien is that is my favourite part of anything I've ever read.

[Rían]

And you have a lovely quote from the Sil in your sig, TD! (and so do I - from a few pages before yours)

Wow, you got thru the Ainulindalë at 11? I adore that part, but whew! I'm impressed with you!

Have you read any HoME (History of Middle Earth) books, TD? I don't remember if you have or not.

[Wayfarer]

I always found the Silmarillion to be a mixed bag, at best, but you really can't expect a whole lot from a volume that was cobbled together from the (sometimes Illegible, frequently multi-draft) notes of the author after his death. Overall I am forced to agree with much of the criticism that has been leveled against it (even CJRT has said that he screwed up some of it), but it's still worth reading for those sublime moments, ocassional passages that are just achingly, heart stoppingly beautiful and are worth reading again and again.

[Rían]

yes! The book is positively painful sometimes in its beauty ...

(Hi, Wayfarer! Nice to see you!)

[Elanor]

Then there's names like Fingon and Turgon (brothers), Elwë and Olwë (brothers), Angrod and Aegnor (brothers), Galadriel and Gil-Galad, Eärendil who marries Elwing and their kids are Elrond and Elros. And all of them have multiple names!

And my all-time personal favorite - Fëanor's two youngest sons, who were twins, were named by their mother "Ambarussa" and ... "Ambarussa" ! Yes, you read it right - the SAME name! (But that info isn't in the Sil, it's in one of the History of Middle Earth books.) They called each other those names, too, but they had several other names (most elves did) that were different from each other.

Yeah, I once counted how many different names Turin had... I've forgotten, but it was a scary number. Now I suspect that this was his "tragic flaw"...giving himself too many names, so his own sister didn't recognize him when they met after years of separation, and if you've read it you know what happens.

I know a lot of people like Feanor, but I can't stand the guy. He's just so full of himself. No sense of humor whatsoever, and he ruined the lives of hundreds of people with his doomed quest to regain the Silmarils.

[Rían]

Yeah, I once counted how many different names Turin had... I've forgotten, but it was a scary number. Now I suspect that this was his "tragic flaw"...giving himself too many names.. ROTFL!!!! :D :D
Good one, Elanor!

I know a lot of people like Feanor, but I can't stand the guy. He's just so full of himself. No sense of humor whatsoever, and he ruined the lives of hundreds of people with his doomed quest to regain the Silmarils.No kidding - absolutely NO sense of humor, and totally full of himself!

[tolkienfan]

I think the hardest parts to read at first are at the beginning, I read it at 13 and had a hard time. It is definately worth reading though, once you figure out who everyone is. I was still working on Lord of the Rings at 11! I'm very impressed.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And you have a lovely quote from the Sil in your sig, TD! (and so do I - from a few pages before yours)

Wow, you got thru the Ainulindalë at 11? I adore that part, but whew! I'm impressed with you!

Have you read any HoME (History of Middle Earth) books, TD? I don't remember if you have or not.
I have read the last three (Morgoths Ring, War of the Jewels and Peoples of Middle Earth) and the first two (Book of Lost Tales 1 and 2 IIRC) and am planning on finishing the rest soon.

[Rían]

oh, we've read pretty much the same ones, then - I really enjoyed those 5. I've also read HoME 3, The Lays of Beleriand, which is gorgeous! - I highly recommend it. And also bits of 5, The Lost Road and bits of 7, The Treason of Isengard, but I wasn't wild about those.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I really enjoyed the last three, especially WotJ, as it had extensive writing on Hurin, my favourite charcter. :cool:

[Rían]

ooooh, then here's a bit from LoB that you'll like - it's Hurin before Morgoth's throne:

'Is it dauntless Hurin,' quote Delu-Morgoth,
'stout steel-handed, who stands before me,
a captive living as a coward might be?
Knowest thou my name, or need'st be told
what hope he has who is haled to Angband -
the bale most bitter, the Balrogs' torment?'

'I know and I hate. For that knowledge I fought thee
by fear unfettered, nor fear I now,'
said Thalion there, and a thane of Morgoth
on the mouth smote him; but Morgoth smiled:
'Fear when thou feelest, and the flames lick thee,
and the whips of the Balrogs thy white flesh brand.
Yet a way canst win, an thou wishest, still
to lessen thy lot of lingering woe...'

[Morgoth asks Hurin to be a spy on his own people in exchange for lesser torment, and Hurin answers,]

'Build not thy hopes so high, O Bauglir -
I am no tool for thy evil treasons;
torment were sweeter than a traitor's stain.'

Go, Hurin!!!! You rock!!


Then from version 2, I like this slightly modified bit, with the little description of Hurin's hair, and how he was able to look Morgoth in the eye and no one has since.

Then Hurin answered, Hithlum's chieftain -
his shining eyes with sheen of fire
in wrath were reddened: 'O ruinous one,
by fear unfettered I have fought thee long,
nor dread thee now, nor thy demon slaves,
fiends and phantoms, thou foe of Gods!'
His dark tresses, drenched and tangled,
that fell o'er his face he flung backward,
in the eye he looked of the evil Lord -
since that day of dread to dare his glance
has no mortal Man had might of soul.

SO - are you on your way to the bookstore? ;) :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No need, I already have it. I bought three big volumes which have all of HoME included.

[Rían]

Wow! You lucky guy :) Anyway, I hope you like those little bits about Hurin - I really like them.

[littleadanel]

... but it's still worth reading for those sublime moments, ocassional passages that are just achingly, heart stoppingly beautiful and are worth reading again and again.

I have quite many of those... the chapters wich made me stuck in the story when I first read it, cuz I just needed to read and re-read them... ;)

RÃ*an, The Lays of Beleriand rocks!! My very first and favourite piece of HoME. I wanted to buy it soo badly after I've read fragments of The Lay of Leithian (that's what the internet exists fooor! :D ), and realized that the poems in the Sil, in the story of Beren & lúthien, are only short parts of it... (And, now coming to think of it, the only parts ever translated into Hungarian. With the translation of HoME, they're stuck after vols. 1-2.)

I bought three big volumes which have all of HoME included.

You are lucky, TD, you made me really jealous... :D *doesn't dare to think what such three big volumes would cost for her :eek:* Thankfully, I can only buy them one by one... if I saw an edition like this, surely I'd buy it on the spot, which would mean, well, the loss of all my spared money. :rolleyes: ;)

And I'm impressed, Ainulindalë at 11... I was 17, and even though I didn't have problems reading, it took a time to love those chapters too.

Edit: eek, I just realize I was almost completely off-topic... :o *runs and hides*

[Valandil]

I've just started re-reading The Silmarillion. I've read it through at least once before - and re-read different parts several times, but this is only my second (maybe my third?? :confused: not sure) time going straight through.

I'm just taking my time. Read the forward information, including the one letter, over the weekend. Then read "Ainulindale" yesterday and "Valaquenta" today.

In these early parts, when I read about the Valar first working in Ea and Arda - and the mention of how they had seen visions of what the Children of Illuvatar looked like, and copied those outer forms, but with greater majesty (something like that) - it makes me think of those "Coors" commercials with the gigantic young men and women playing around among the Rocky Mountains. :p :D

[Landroval]

Just a quick note: in the commentary on the first section of the Annals of Aman, it is stated that, though the shapes of the valar were tall, they were not gigantic.

[Valandil]

Landroval - just curious, where is that commentary? At least I don't think I have it in my copies of the Sil - but I just have a couple paperbacks.

In the earliest parts of the book though, they SOUND like they're just immense! In the days before the Children of Iluvatar actually appear.

[Alcuin]

Landroval’s statement sounds much like Tolkien’s description of Sauron in Letter 246: Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.Letter 246 was written in September 1963. If I correctly understand Christopher Tolkien’s introductory remarks to “Annals of Aman� in Morgoth’s Ring, that material was written around 1958. I wonder if the two concepts of the appearance of the Valar and that of Sauron might be closely related? I am also interest in the AAm citation.

[Landroval]

Here it is:
Note that 'spouse' meant only an 'association'. The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes. After the coming of the Eldar they most often used shapes of 'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more magnificent.

[Valandil]

My impression was influenced by the end of "Ainulindale":

Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn to the world by love of the Children of Iluvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner, which they had beheld in the Vision of Iluvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover, their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself;...

So they took on a form similar to what they recalled from the vision, but the substance was different.

But then Melkor:

And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire:...

So - I know the language is metaphorical - and I'm not saying that the Valar were definitely like that - just that this was the impression it gave me, and something else I associated with it.

The other references you mention - where they are taller than the Children of Iluvatar but not gigantic - those are all after the Children of Iluvatar come.

[Landroval]

Ulmo too is given a rather terrifying description in the Silmarillion:
Moreover he does not love to walk upon land, and will seldom clothe himself in a body after the manner of his peers. If the Children of Eru beheld him they were filled with a great dread; for the arising of the King of the Sea was terrible, as a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green.
and in Unfinished Tales too:
...and it seemed to [Tuor] that a great wave rose far off and rolled towards the land, but wonder held him, and he remained there unmoved. And the wave came towards him, and upon it lay a mist of shadow. Then suddenly as it drew near it curled, and broke, and rushed forward in long arms of foam; but where it had broken there stood dark against the rising storm a living shape of great height and majesty.
...
Then Tuor bowed in reverence, for it seemed to him that he beheld a mighty king. A tall crown he wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glimmering in the dusk and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of mighty fish, and in a kirtle of deep green that flashed and flickered with sea-fire as he strode slowly towards the land.

[The Telcontarion]

I think all these references by my friend Landroval and Valandil only suggests to me that the Valar for the most part where not gigantic in form though still impressive. The exceptions being Morgoth due to his arrogance and Ulmo's gigantic size could be a result of the nature of his role, due to the element inwhich he gave the most thought to and which he ultimatley governs within middle-earth. Water is immense and violently uncontrollable, taking up 70% of the surface of middle earth if the fact that middle-earth is fashioned after earth itself is to be believed.

I think that any form Ulmo would assume would reflect the cantankerous nature of the oceans, rivers and seas.

[Valandil]

I almost wonder if the size of the forms they took varied - depending upon which part of the account. I almost picture them as larger in the earlier parts. There's really nothing firm textually that I can base that on - it's just the impression I get.

From today's reading:

I had forgotten that the Two Trees seem to have gender. Telperion is called "he" and Laurelin is called "she". Interesting - because I remembered that the Elves think of the Moon as a "he" and the Sun as a "she" - the inverse of my own cultural impressions. And - since Telperion seems more like the Moon, and Laurelin more like the Sun, it's easy to see why the Elves consider the Sun and Moon as they do.

I had also forgotten about how Men, by their will, could shape their lives beyond the Music of the Ainur - which was like Fate to everything else in Arda. Wow - Men must've thrown the Valar for quite a loop! No wonder they stuck with the Elves and avoided Men like they did.

I had forgotten too that the Elves thought Men most reminded them of Melkor, of all the Ainur. Silly Elves. :p

[Landroval]

Perhaps Ulmo's terrible aspect adds to the his perceived height...

One thing that struck me is this:
...or who consider only the immeasurable vastness of the World, which still the Ainur are shaping, and not the minute precision to which they shape all things therein
Ea, a work in progress? Interesting - although in Myths Transformed it is hinted that they are 'fading', thus what they are still doing might be of lesser importance:
The Valar 'fade' and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled.

[The Telcontarion]

I had also forgotten about how Men, by their will, could shape their lives beyond the Music of the Ainur - which was like Fate to everything else in Arda. Wow - Men must've thrown the Valar for quite a loop! No wonder they stuck with the Elves and avoided Men like they did.



I had forgotten that point as well, fascinating really. Brought back some good memories from my first impressions of the book and the signficants and true role of man. A key part of tolkiens message to his readers I had origianlly thought, and at the heart of the apllicability of his works. Whatever happens in this world, it is up to us, it really is up to us to make it happen.

[Valandil]

I had put the book on hold for awhile, but lately I've been back to it in full force. I read it about my whole trip on the el each day, to and from work - and sometimes a little over lunch - so I get in at least 1 1/2 hours per weekday, up to 2.

Wow! I feel like I'm getting so much more out of it the second time around. I guess I have a better sense of the characters and story as a whole, so I don't miss quite so much.

I'm in the middle of the story of Beren and Luthien now (is that about the longest chapter?).

And... I see better why the Sun is "she" and the Moon is "he" - that has to do with Arien and Tilion. :o :p

[Beor]

One of the best books ever. Nothing more really needs be said about it. Read the Silmarillion, or you're missing out on a big chuck of Tolkien's mythology.

[brownjenkins]

Wow! I feel like I'm getting so much more out of it the second time around.

It's even better the tenth time around. :D

[Rían]

Beor! Hello!!!!! :) :) How's the family?

Val - That's great that you get such a solid chunk of time for reading it! It definitely gets better with each read. Next thing you know, you'll have all the HoME books ... :eek: (they're caallllllling you!!!)