LOTR Discussion Project: Book V, Chapter 4: The Siege of Gondor

[Beren3000]

So, here’s my intro as promised. I’ve chosen to present it in point-form, because long paragraphs can appear too daunting; so here we go:

Book V, Chapter 4: The Siege of Gondor



• Gandalf summons Pippin to see Denethor
• Denethor echoes an earlier thought of Pippin’s, so at this point:

Pippin had an uncomfortable feeling that most of what he had said or done was somehow known to the Lord of the City

This is the first hint we get that Denethor is using the Palantir.
• Denethor appoints Pippin to wait on him and run errands for him
• Commanded to sing, Pippin is too shy at first, because he feels that the Shire’s songs are too “rustic� for Minas Tirith (refer to discussion point 1)
• Relieved from his duty, Pippin meets Beregond and they sit together on the walls where they see the dark cloud first coming out of Mordor
• Faramir returns from Ithilien and is brought into the city after being rescued from the Nazgûl by Gandalf (refer to discussion point 2)
• Pippin sees Faramir and recognizes an air of nobility and charisma around him (the air of Numenor?)
• Faramir, Denethor, Gandalf and Pippin gather in the throne room where Faramir relates the assault of the mûmak in Ithilien and the meeting with Frodo and Sam
• While he was telling his news, Faramir kept looking at Gandalf for approval; this sparks off Denethor’s complaint that Faramir is a “wizard’s pupil� and that Boromir would have brought the Ring to Minas Tirith (refer to plotline 1)
• When Gandalf asks what Denethor would do with the Ring, Denethor says that he would have it hidden instead of sent into Mordor, to which Gandalf retorts:

You think, as is your wont, my lord, of Gondor only, yet there are other men and other lives, and time still to be. And for me, I pity even his slaves.

( refer to discussion point 3 )
Here, we also see Gandalf revealed as Olorin, an emissary of the Valar whose task is to care for all the world and all the coming Ages. (refer to plotline 2)
• At this point, Gandalf and Denethor have a staring contest :D from which Pippin gets another glimpse at the tension between them. Here Denethor is presented as almost an equal of Gandalf (refer to discussion point 4)
• Gandalf and Pippin have a rather interesting conversation where Gandalf, meditating on Faramir’s news, guesses that Aragorn has dared to challenge Sauron through the Palantir of Saruman. We also get a hint at future events on Gandalf’s tongue. Speaking about Gollum, he says:
Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.

• The next day, Denethor holds counsel with his generals and announces that he intends not to let Osgiliath fall cheaply. At this point, Faramir volunteers to do Denethor’s bidding and rides out to Osgiliath (refer to plotline 1)
• When a messenger reports that the Witch King is leading the assault on Osgiliath, Gandalf rides out to help Faramir’s retreat.
• Gandalf returns and hints at his apprehension towards the Witch King (refer to discussion point 2)
• Gandalf encourages Denethor to prepare a sortie to aid Faramir.
• Denethor reveals that he was walking clad in mail and girt with a sword all the time, he also reveals that the idea of a sortie was not far from his mind, which goes to show that he hadn’t despaired yet.
• Faramir is attacked by the Nazgûl again and Denethor sends out the sortie, led by Gandalf.
• The sortie rescues Faramir and brings him back to the City, feverish and unconscious.
• Denethor, seeing Faramir, goes up into the tower where (we can only assume) he used the Palantir. He comes back down with a pale face. It is at this point that he lost the will to live.
• Gondor is now under siege and the gates of Minas Tirith are shut; the last people in are Ingold (the one who admitted Pippin and Gandalf earlier) and his company, who confirm the reports of an army coming forth from the Black Gate.
• The besieging army digs trenches filled with fire and uses siege engines to throw balls that burst into flame behind the walls (this sounds suspiciously like bombs to me) (refer to discussion point 5) they also bombard the City with the heads of the dead.
• Denethor, in madness, prepares a pyre for him and Faramir. Gandalf and Imrahil take command of the City.
• Pippin, appalled at Denethor’s madness flees the House of the Dead and goes seeking Gandalf. On the way, he meets Beregond and asks him to do his best to prevent the murder that Denethor intends. Here we get the impression that Pippin has matured a lot over this chapter (refer to plotline 3)
• Meanwhile, Grond (the huge battering ram) is used to batter the gates of Minas Tirith; to help it, the Witch King shouts something like an evil spell.
• The Witch King enters the City where he faces Gandalf (we are told that Shadowfax is the only horse that could withstand the terror of the Witch King); just as the Witch King is about to strike at Gandalf with his flaming sword, a rooster’s crowing announces the dawn and the distant sound of horns heralds the arrival of the Riders of Rohan.

So much for trying to keep it simple! :rolleyes:

Plotlines and Discussion Points

Major plotlines in this chapter:

1. Denethor & Faramir:
From the first moments we feel a great tension between Denethor and Faramir. Denethor is jealous of the influence Gandalf has on Faramir’s mind. When Faramir asks him whether he would’ve wanted him to die instead of Boromir, Denethor bluntly answers: “Yes.� This comment sounds very cruel to me. What do you guys think drove Denethor to such jealousy?
But that said, Denethor really loves his son as we see him driven to madness by Faramir’s fever. Why do you think Denethor had such a complex relationship with Faramir?
2. Gandalf’s power:
In many points in this chapter, Gandalf is revealed as the White Rider, and his staff is seen to produce a long shaft of white light that has the power to drive off even Nazgûl. Gandalf also shows good leadership qualities when he takes command of the City. The question here is, weren’t the Istari forbidden to ride “in open display of power�? Weren’t they supposed to achieve their tasks subtly?
3. Pippin’s growth:
From the moment Pippin swears fealty to Denethor, we get the impression that this little Hobbit has come a long way from the sleepy Shire. Even he feels changed into a grim person, waiting on the edge of battle and wearing the livery of the tower. We also get a glimpse of how mature he has become when he almost commands Beregond to go help Faramir. What do you think caused Pippin to mature thus?

Discussion points:

1. Pippin feels that his songs are too “rustic� for Minas Tirith, and well he might: the description of the hall of Denethor presents us with imposing grandeur (marble columns and lifelike statues, etc...) I wonder however whether Pippin would have felt the same way in Meduseld. When I first read the description of Meduseld, I couldn’t help but think that it has too much “country� feel to be a palace (with tapestries, stone walls and garish colors everywhere) I always thought that this contrast between Meduseld and Minas Tirith served to emphasize the contrast between the attitudes of Denethor and Theoden: the simplicity of Theoden’s halls contrast with the (now decadent) solemnity of Minas Tirith. I wonder if this is why PJ included a scene of Merry and Pippin dancing and singing in Meduseld. What do you guys think of such a comparison?

2. When Gandalf returns to Minas Tirith after riding against the Nazgûl, Pippin sees him “pale in the twilight as if his fire was spent or veiled.� Which do you think it is? Was Gandalf’s power spent or was he simply masking them from the people of Minas Tirith? If you choose the second, why? If Gandalf can face the Nazgûl, why does he appear afraid from (or at least worried about) the Witch King?

3. Gandalf says that he pities Sauron’s slaves, do you?

4. Denethor shows outstanding strength of character when he matches Gandalf stare for stare. Where does he get this strength from? I mean, this is a man who is an inch away from becoming insane and desperate… Also, why do you think Denethor harbors so much animosity towards Gandalf?

5. The missiles of the orc army sound like bombs; we have also encountered some explosive pyrotechnics courtesy of Saruman in the battle of Helm’s Deep. Is this Tolkien’s way of saying that science is evil? Or is he only talking about weapon technology? Any relations to WWII ?

[Butterbeer]

excellent summary and discussion points there beren 3000!

The question here is, weren’t the Istari forbidden to ride “in open display of power�? Weren’t they supposed to achieve their tasks subtly?

well, yes i always understood that to mean as an istari they were limited in middle earth to the power they could wield .. he still HAD this amount of power as allowed plus the elven ring too - but they could not here in ME ride in full "turbo" mode as it were (what a untolkienesque phrase! ;) )

yes, pity his slaves, how not?


re: staring match D v G
I mean, this is a man who is an inch away from becoming insane and desperate… Also, why do you think Denethor harbors so much animosity towards Gandalf?

wel, you could say because he is a man an inch away from becoming insane ...!

His will is strong and has been trained and fine tuned and much used, esp in mental battle using the palantir, it has been sharpened and strengthened ...

animosity ... good question .... well he knows of this ranger of the north .. who took command over Boromir - thus a northern chieftan of the royal line .... coming to supplant him and his line - he also i think despises inside his own heart and mind that gandalf still hashope when he does not .... he knows that despite his staring and duels with gandlaf that he has the greater power and to the pride of denethor this is a heavy blow ....

faramir ... of course ... denethor sees gandalf as taking his sons love and mind away from him .... and his alleigance to a degree ...



well gotta go ... see y'all later ..

[Beren3000]

well, yes i always understood that to mean as an istari they were limited in middle earth to the power they could wield .. he still HAD this amount of power as allowed plus the elven ring too - but they could not here in ME ride in full "turbo" mode as it were (what a untolkienesque phrase! )
Untolkienesque indeed! :D That's a good way to look at it, but I'm afraid I have to disagree there: look at Saruman. We are told that the Istari were forbidden to use their full power to try and alter the course of events (they were just there to give counsel), but Saruman disobeyed this and tried to seize power on his own. So it's not that it was physically impossible for them to use their powers, it's that they were forbidden to.

yes, pity his slaves, how not?
Maybe I haven't phrased this question the right way. What I meant was, do you think orcs have enough redeeming qualities to provoke pity in us? Do you think they could be turned (back) to the good side?

[Rían]

Maybe I haven't phrased this question the right way. What I meant was, do you think orcs have enough redeeming qualities to provoke pity in us? Do you think they could be turned (back) to the good side?
Now that is a difficult question, and one that Tolkien struggled with. There have been threads on this issue, IIRC. I think as LOTR is written, they're irredeemable. But the whole issue is very complex, and Tolkien has several opposite opinions on it as usual :D

General comment on Denethor - dontcha just want to up and smack the guy sometimes?!!

[brownjenkins]

1. Pippin feels that his songs are too “rustic� for Minas Tirith, and well he might: the description of the hall of Denethor presents us with imposing grandeur (marble columns and lifelike statues, etc...) I wonder however whether Pippin would have felt the same way in Meduseld. When I first read the description of Meduseld, I couldn’t help but think that it has too much “country� feel to be a palace (with tapestries, stone walls and garish colors everywhere) I always thought that this contrast between Meduseld and Minas Tirith served to emphasize the contrast between the attitudes of Denethor and Theoden: the simplicity of Theoden’s halls contrast with the (now decadent) solemnity of Minas Tirith. I wonder if this is why PJ included a scene of Merry and Pippin dancing and singing in Meduseld. What do you guys think of such a comparison?

definitely an intended contrast... i think in many ways the rohirrim represent a revitalization of the spirit of humanity... in some ways the people of gondor are almost too stuck in the glory of their past... resting on their, admittedly well-earned, laurels and no longer progressing... they have stagnated in a cultural sense and i think pippin, who comes from a more vibrant culture realizes this

2. When Gandalf returns to Minas Tirith after riding against the Nazgûl, Pippin sees him “pale in the twilight as if his fire was spent or veiled.� Which do you think it is? Was Gandalf’s power spent or was he simply masking them from the people of Minas Tirith? If you choose the second, why? If Gandalf can face the Nazgûl, why does he appear afraid from (or at least worried about) the Witch King?

i think he is truly spent (as we saw after he confronted the balrog the first, and especially the second time)... he is "mortal" in his current form and limited in his powers and resources... plus, remember, the elven rings were not made as offensive tools

3. Gandalf says that he pities Sauron’s slaves, do you?

definitely... the majority of them did not choose their allegiance, unless you want to call death on disobedience a possible choice for them

4. Denethor shows outstanding strength of character when he matches Gandalf stare for stare. Where does he get this strength from? I mean, this is a man who is an inch away from becoming insane and desperate… Also, why do you think Denethor harbors so much animosity towards Gandalf?

for all his faults, denethor still comes from a strong bloodline, and tolkien puts a lot of strength of character in bloodlines... he may be corrupted, but he is not a craven man

the animosity stems from many things... but probably the deepest is jealousy... he knows that gandalf is right, but he can not bring himself to admit this because it would be admitting his own shortcomings

5. The missiles of the orc army sound like bombs; we have also encountered some explosive pyrotechnics courtesy of Saruman in the battle of Helm’s Deep. Is this Tolkien’s way of saying that science is evil? Or is he only talking about weapon technology? Any relations to WWII ?

probably better addressed when "the scouring" comes along... but there is no doubt that tolkien idealizes "the simple life"... and technology, while not directly responsible, does lead to complications that make this simple life more difficult to maintain

[Beren3000]

I think as LOTR is written, they're irredeemable.
You do? Well, there's a certain quote I have on that topic but it comes in later ahead, so I'll save it till its chapter has been posted.
dontcha just want to up and smack the guy sometimes?!! No, I never felt that way. He is to be pitied, I think.
... they have stagnated in a cultural sense and i think pippin, who comes from a more vibrant culture realizes this
Yes, that's more or less what I was thinking. I don't believe, however, that Pippin realized this. I think he was merely overwhelmed by the solemnity of the place and therefore refused to sing a "rustic" song.
he knows that gandalf is right, but he can not bring himself to admit this because it would be admitting his own shortcomings
Yes, I think you and BB have said it best.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Beren3000
1. Pippin feels that his songs are too “rustic� for Minas Tirith, and well he might: the description of the hall of Denethor presents us with imposing grandeur (marble columns and lifelike statues, etc...) I wonder however whether Pippin would have felt the same way in Meduseld. When I first read the description of Meduseld, I couldn’t help but think that it has too much “country� feel to be a palace (with tapestries, stone walls and garish colors everywhere) I always thought that this contrast between Meduseld and Minas Tirith served to emphasize the contrast between the attitudes of Denethor and Theoden: the simplicity of Theoden’s halls contrast with the (now decadent) solemnity of Minas Tirith. I wonder if this is why PJ included a scene of Merry and Pippin dancing and singing in Meduseld. What do you guys think of such a comparison?


Brownjenkins:
definitely an intended contrast... i think in many ways the rohirrim represent a revitalization of the spirit of humanity... in some ways the people of gondor are almost too stuck in the glory of their past... resting on their, admittedly well-earned, laurels and no longer progressing... they have stagnated in a cultural sense and i think pippin, who comes from a more vibrant culture realizes this


this is odd ... they have stagnated culturally, because they want to hear new songs and the cutlture of a new culture, as it were?

Yes. the contrast is intended, i agree, but i think the rohirrim are more a hark back to the norse myths and the'good old days' before the horrors of war and rapid change in the 20th century, mass propaganda and genocide ...

i think Tolkien is wary of arrogance and it's forms in instituions and halls, but he look favourablly on Gondor, plus of couirse they have had to become more warlike in recent years ... but to claim the culture of the shire is more vibrant .... causes me to raise an eyebrow, shall we say???

[brownjenkins]

but to claim the culture of the shire is more vibrant .... causes me to raise an eyebrow, shall we say???

ultimately interpretation is a personal decision as to what is more vibrant, but if you look at the totality of tolkien's writing, it is hard not to see a tendency to favor the simple pleasures of life over technological, or even cultural, advancement

the "happiest" people in middle earth (hobbits, tom bombadil, the elves of rivendell) seem to be the ones who have finally cast aside the aspirations for a "greater" culture and just decided to enjoy the moment

[Butterbeer]

ultimately interpretation is a personal decision as to what is more vibrant, but if you look at the totality of tolkien's writing, it is hard not to see a tendency to favor the simple pleasures of life over technological, or even cultural, advancement

the "happiest" people in middle earth (hobbits, tom bombadil, the elves of rivendell) seem to be the ones who have finally cast aside the aspirations for a "greater" culture and just decided to enjoy the moment

well, what you say there BJ, i quite agree with .. unreservedly ...

but i do not think Pippin realizes this himself as you mention ... surely that would be at odds with the (which i agree with totally) the advocacy by JRRT throughout his writings for the humanity (be it hobbit, dwarf or elf) of good honest living ... but i sill cannot see that the culture of the shire is more cultured than that of Gondor, no matter it's arrogance or war-like state or introspection ...

i rather just felt Pip was uncomforatble, picking up on the undertones of Denethor and Gandalf ... and not sure that the rustic (in his own mind) songs he loved would be in place here ... ..but more at this time ... than for anything else ... i think Pip was feeling alone and unsure ... realizing that danger and doom were indeed very near and all was not so comfortable and safe, even WITH gandalf at his side ...

the whole City of Minas tirith must have been a revelation, a jaw dropper.. let alone in a situation as he finds himself and the City in now ...

[clep_web]

In many points in this chapter, Gandalf is revealed as the White Rider, and his staff is seen to produce a long shaft of white light that has the power to drive off even Nazgûl. Gandalf also shows good leadership qualities when he takes command of the City. The question here is, weren’t the Istari forbidden to ride “in open display of power�? Weren’t they supposed to achieve their tasks subtly?

My opinion is simply that since the power of the Enemy grew stronger and to counter that Gandalf revealed more of his.

[Valandil]

clep_web, the idea is mostly to focus on the material in the LOTR books themselves in these threads - while certainly we can go more in-depth into discussions about particular topics that come up in other threads - or create new threads for them.

There is a nice outline by Azalea in the main thread about the project which should help. You can contact me if you still have any other questions about it.

Meanwhile, there was absolutely no problem with your previous post, in that regard.

And... welcome to Entmoot! :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

In many points in this chapter, Gandalf is revealed as the White Rider, and his staff is seen to produce a long shaft of white light that has the power to drive off even Nazgûl. Gandalf also shows good leadership qualities when he takes command of the City. The question here is, weren’t the Istari forbidden to ride “in open display of power”? Weren’t they supposed to achieve their tasks subtly?
I think that the Istari were forbidden to openly fight Sauron, but they were not forbidden from fighting his servants.

[Beren3000]

My opinion is simply that since the power of the Enemy grew stronger and to counter that Gandalf revealed more of his.
I think that the Istari were forbidden to openly fight Sauron, but they were not forbidden from fighting his servants.
Good points, but I recall reading somewhere in UT that this prohibition laid on them was in order to prevent them from changing the course of events directly: they were only to influence the counsels of the time. IOW, their riding out in war tends to tip the balance somewhat...
TD, I think the ban applied to Sauron's servants as well as himself.
Clep_web, I think that's a possible answer; probably Gandalf saw that Saruman had broken the ban and so caused a great deal of harm, so he broke the ban himself in order to restore the balance of power.

P.S. Welcome to Entmoot :)

[Valandil]

Let's try to keep the focus on the chapter being discussed and not get too much into references in other works of Tolkien.

We can discuss the various tangents in threads of their own (hint, hint!). :)

[Serenoli]

Pity! I only came across this thread now...

The question here is, weren’t the Istari forbidden to ride “in open display of power�? Weren’t they supposed to achieve their tasks subtly?

I think this was a special case wasn't it? I think they were only forbidden in using it in day-to-day life, or during times of peace.

From the moment Pippin swears fealty to Denethor, we get the impression that this little Hobbit has come a long way from the sleepy Shire. Even he feels changed into a grim person, waiting on the edge of battle and wearing the livery of the tower. We also get a glimpse of how mature he has become when he almost commands Beregond to go help Faramir. What do you think caused Pippin to mature thus?

This is a good point... in fact, it is this new-found maturity on the part of both Merry and Pippin which let them become the good leaders that they became later in the Shire. Many things contributed, I believe... facing many new dangers... the Balrog in Moria, being captivated by the orcs in a most horrifying way, the Nazgul... and then, he looked in the Palantir, saw and actually spoke with Sauron. If all that couldn't sober him and make him grow up... Also I think he was deeply moved by the way Boromir saved Merry and him, so he took his oath to Denthor very seriously. We all know the power of oaths by now!

Regarding the culture question, I agree with BB. I never felt Gondor to be a stagnant city. You might call Denethor rather stagnant... shut up in his hall with only a crystal ball with which to look out. His outlook was diseased, but Minas Tirith as a whole was not stagnant. Whereas the Riders were free in their grasslands, they were stuck year after year fighting a seemingly hopeless war. That made them solemn, grave, depressing... no wonder Pippin did not feel his songs of the carefree Shire would suit them there. It would be like a nightinangle singing to Sauron.


If Gandalf can face the Nazgûl, why does he appear afraid from (or at least worried about) the Witch King?

He could face them, and drive them off, but the Witch-King is more powerful than the rest. He was a powerful sorceror once, and Gandalf must also have heard of the prophecy which saids no living man could kill him.

Gandalf says that he pities Sauron’s slaves, do you?

Yes... they must have had a terrible life. To live in constant fear, and not to be free. I do pity them. But whether they could be turned back from evil is an entirely different question.

[Earniel]

Denethor echoes an earlier thought of Pippin’s, so at this point: [...]This is the first hint we get that Denethor is using the Palantir.
It is curious that Denethor would use the PalantÃ*r for something seemingly trivial as Pippin's conduct on his first day in the guard. One way I suppose it shows that Denethor really didn't trust Gandalf much, to the extent of suspecting the Halfling he has brought with him. Another way I am somewhat inclined to draw an comparison between Denethor's use of the PalantÃ*r and an addiction. Would one be able to say that PalantÃ*r-using was addicting? I think so, especially since (IIRC) there were references made to Saruman being unable to stay away from the PalantÃ*r to learn what was going on elsewhere. Which eventually led to the hold Sauron gained on Saruman.

Denethor, seeing Faramir, goes up into the tower where (we can only assume) he used the Palantir. He comes back down with a pale face. It is at this point that he lost the will to live.
All in all one has to admire the treacherous but effective tactics the Witch King and Sauron use to crack both the city and her people. To get to Denethor through Faramir is brilliant strategy. It effectively bereaves Minas Tirith of her Steward and the only one who could 'legally' replace him and leaves only two in charge: Prince Imrahil, who probably wouldn't know the way Minas Tirith is best protected (since he's from another city) and Gandalf who actually has no business getting involved in the defense.

Psychological it is also quite a big blow to the strength of the people. Suddenly their own leader is unwilling to lead them, his well-loved son is dying and two new non-native-to-the-city- leaders take control. Add to that the creepy bombardment of the mutulated heads, the nazgul cries, the perpetual darkness and the frightening massiveness of ennemies before the gate and you have got one giant mental breakdown within the span of a few hours. To be in Minas Tirith during this unslaught must have been traumatic stuff of nightmares. I don't know whether I would get out with my sanity intact myself.

[...]just as the Witch King is about to strike at Gandalf with his flaming sword, a rooster’s crowing announces the dawn and the distant sound of horns heralds the arrival of the Riders of Rohan.
That was one of the awesomest moments of the whole book for me. To visualise this moment in my mind while I was reading LoTR for the first time was wow, indescribable... The whole chapter was filled with seemingly never-ending darkness, inescapable doom and a tragedy-ending in the making and then the glorious sound of horns and horns and horns. Great, just absolutely marvelous.

But that said, Denethor really loves his son as we see him driven to madness by Faramir’s fever. Why do you think Denethor had such a complex relationship with Faramir?
I think he loved both sons equally, although showed preference to Boromir because he seemed more alike to Denethor in mind and action. I suppose Denethor did what he did to push Faramir to be more like Boromir. Possibly Denethor reckoned Faramir too independant a thinker, it must have stung too that Faramir seemingly was more inclined to listen to Gandalf than his own father. With Minas Tirith poised on the brink of war as it was, Denethor would have needed someone on whom he could rely 100%. To him Faramir was not that person, but Boromir would have been and yet he [Denethor] was left with the least 'useful' son. Reason enough to be somewhat bitter.

The question here is, weren’t the Istari forbidden to ride “in open display of power�? Weren’t they supposed to achieve their tasks subtly?
I think the rules have changed after Gandalf's 'ascension' from grey to white, something that normally wouldn't have been possible either IMO. With coming back as Gandalf the White, he had no more need, nor time, for subtlety. People were already going on the proper course, he didn't had to sneakily push/inspire them to certain things. But they were facing a threat they could not defeat alone, they needed outright help and protection now, not guidance or hinting.

From the moment Pippin swears fealty to Denethor, we get the impression that this little Hobbit has come a long way from the sleepy Shire. Even he feels changed into a grim person, waiting on the edge of battle and wearing the livery of the tower. We also get a glimpse of how mature he has become when he almost commands Beregond to go help Faramir. What do you think caused Pippin to mature thus?
I can't help but think Pippin didn't really mature all of a sudden. Only a few days ago he nicked the PalantÃ*r to take a peek, so he still possessed that irresponsible streak there. Only ancient, war-expecting Minas Tirith isn't the place to revel in that. In a way I think Pippin already possessed maturity when he first started out with Frodo and Sam to Crickhollow, there only never really was a time when he himself would have to make important decisions until he was all alone, far from all his previous travel companions, in Minas Tirith. He had always had somebody to follow up until now, so now was his moment to show what he could be. For me, it's more like discovering a side to Pippin that has always been there, under the surface, than seeing him develop a new side.

Denethor shows outstanding strength of character when he matches Gandalf stare for stare. Where does he get this strength from? I mean, this is a man who is an inch away from becoming insane and desperate… Also, why do you think Denethor harbors so much animosity towards Gandalf?
Denethor indeed is an impressive character to be able to withstand Gandalf, a true testament to the strength of the ancient Númenoreans. That Denethor, who possessed such great abilities completely loses it when Faramir is wounded shows how deeply he in thruth loved his son. Touching, yet tragic, because one cannot help but wish he had realised that sooner.

Maybe I haven't phrased this question the right way. What I meant was, do you think orcs have enough redeeming qualities to provoke pity in us? Do you think they could be turned (back) to the good side?
I hadn't thought about orcs at first when you mentioned slaves. I was thinking about the most-likely human tribes and peoples that were enslaved in Mordor and which later on would get the lands around the Nurn-sea. I'd pity those alright. Orcs,... though one. In LoTR they don't seem to mind Sauron's rule that much: plenty times and chances on mayham, misschief and slaughter, in which they rather seem to delight. In LoTR I never thought orcs have redeeming qualities, but one could argue that the possibility that they cannot be redeemed is piteous enough.

[The Gaffer]

Denethor indeed is an impressive character to be able to withstand Gandalf, a true testament to the strength of the ancient Númenoreans. That Denethor, who possessed such great abilities completely loses it when Faramir is wounded shows how deeply he in thruth loved his son. Touching, yet tragic, because one cannot help but wish he had realised that sooner.
Further, it is often forgotten (particularly in the light of a certain cinematic interpretation) that, even though he used the Palantir, Denethor was NOT enslaved in the same way as Saruman. So, he possessed a strength of character that outmatched a Wizard and defied Sauron.

[Landroval]

Maybe I haven't phrased this question the right way. What I meant was, do you think orcs have enough redeeming qualities to provoke pity in us? Do you think they could be turned (back) to the good side?
Interestingly enough, in Myths Transformed their allegiance to Melkor is labeled as irremediable. Yet in letters Tolkien notes that there aren't many who are so corrupted as to be irredeemable (#78) and that he "nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good". In conclusion, I would say that there still is a chance for them :).
Denethor was NOT enslaved in the same way as Saruman
Not enslaved, but still tricked - though admitedly the results are less harmful.

[Beren3000]

It is curious that Denethor would use the PalantÃ*r for something seemingly trivial as Pippin's conduct on his first day in the guard.
But he would use it to monitor happenings around the city in general. He amy have just caught a glimpse of Pippin on the way...

To be in Minas Tirith during this unslaught must have been traumatic stuff of nightmares.
Quite a good analysis, there!
In a way I think Pippin already possessed maturity when he first started out with Frodo and Sam to Crickhollow
Could you elaborate on that?

[Serenoli]

But he would use it to monitor happenings around the city in general. He amy have just caught a glimpse of Pippin on the way...


Since Pippin had looked in a palantir, Sauron might have directed his own palantir trying to find Pippin... and we do know that Sauron could influence what Denethor saw, so, maybe the combination of Sauron influ and Pippin happening to be so close to Minas Tirith might have helped in directing Denethor's gaze to the hobbit.

But can a palantir see inside a person's mind... or does that require special powers on the part of the user? and if Denethor had such powers, maybe he used them to guess what Pippin was thinking during the meeting, and the palantir never came into it at all...

[Gordis]

I think Denethor, as a true High Numenorean had mind-reading powers and read some Pippin's thoughts. Gandalf implied as much.

The palantiri are not the devices made for mind-reading. It is but a means of communication, like cellphone or, more precisely, like a video-conference. If users have own mind-reading powers (like Sauron) they can do that via palantiri. That is how I see it.

[Gordis]

New page-bug!

[Earniel]

But he would use it to monitor happenings around the city in general. He amy have just caught a glimpse of Pippin on the way...
I guess I assumed he'd be more interested in things happening further away, at Osgilliath and such, then things in Minas Tirith itself of which he could more easily have gotten news of through servants. The PalantÃ*r seems both a too dangerous and too valuable a possession to use for trivial things.

Could you elaborate on that?
Well, the Shire is a safe place, and Pippin was still under age when they left. He was still considered young, in his (what was the term again..) irresponsible tweens? He didn't need to act mature in the Shire, there were little to none life-threatening situations he could suddenly find himself in alone and it wasn't expected of him yet either. If you're a Hobbit and you don't have to act mature, would you do so? No, of course not! Bring on the fun! :D

And still being under age he wouldn't have been put in charge of important things yet, there would always have been someone who would be able to make those decisions instead of him. So he never had to show he could be mature, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have possessed already some maturity before he needed it in Minas Tirith.

[Landroval]

I think Denethor, as a true High Numenorean had mind-reading powers and read some Pippin's thoughts.
According to Osanwe kenta, no mind can read another mind against its will; even Melkor could at best _guess_ what others are thinking. The best Denethor could do is to lessen the negative impact the body has on receiving and transmiting thoughts.

[Gordis]

I believe the keywords here are "against its will". Every mind can be closed. But the natural state of the mind is openness. Gandalf, surely closed his mind to Denethor, but, I believe, Pippin's untrained mind was open by default.

Pengolodh says that all minds (sáma, pl. sámar) are equal in status, though they differ in capacity and strength. A mind by its nature perceives another mind directly. But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties (Note 1). The degree of will, however, need not be the same in both parties. If we call one mind G (for guest or comer) and the other H (for host or receiver), then G must have full intention to inspect H or to inform it. But knowledge may be gained or imparted by G, even when H is not seeking or intending to impart or to learn: the act of G will be effective, if H is simply "open" (láta; látie "openness"). This distinction, he says, is of the greatest importance.
"Openness" is the natural or simple state (indo) of a mind that is not otherwise engaged (Note 2). In "Arda Unmarred" (that is, in ideal conditions free from evil) openness would be the normal state. Nonetheless any mind may be closed (pahta). This requires an act of conscious will: Unwill (avanir). It may be made against G, against G and some others, or be a total retreat into "privacy" (aquapahtie).

[Landroval]

I believe the keywords here are "against its will". Every mind can be closed. But the natural state of the mind is openness. Gandalf, surely closed his mind to Denethor, but, I believe, Pippin's untrained mind was open by default.
Open by default wouldn't count much, since any mind that can close itself when becoming aware of inspection - not to mention that the "will" necessary on behalf of two incarnate minds ought to be (in my opinion) an active faculty.

Nevertheless, there seems to be just a family trait (shared by Faramir) in understanding others better than a normal person would - not a better mind reading faculty in itself:
[Faramir] read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn

[Gordis]

Open by default wouldn't count much, since any mind that can close itself when becoming aware of inspection - not to mention that the "will" necessary on behalf of two incarnate minds ought to be (in my opinion) an active faculty.:
I suggest we stop discussing Osanwe kenta here, it is not allowed in this thread :) . Soon the mods will be on us. ;) Anyway, Osanwe is quite difficult to interpret, IMO, as it applies to the Elves and to the "Arda unmarred". But I am far from being a specialist in these matters.

Nevertheless, there seems to be just a family trait (shared by Faramir) in understanding others better than a normal person would - not a better mind reading faculty in itself:I would say, Faramir and Denethor were two men in "whom the blood of Numenor ran almost true." So, I believe their abilities were shared by High Numenoreans of old. Aragorn must have had similar powers.

[Landroval]

I would say, Faramir and Denethor were two men in "whom the blood of Numenor ran almost true." So, I believe their abilities were shared by High Numenoreans of old. Aragorn must have had similar powers.
Well, that is a logical fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization) in my interpretation; I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue :).

[Gordis]

It would have been a logical fallacy if the fact that Faramir and Denethor both had heightened perception of other people's minds were taken out of the context of all the Tolkien's world.

Yes, the fact that both Mr. Smith and Mr. Smith Junior have a good hearing, doesn't imply that they are the last remnants of a special people characterized by an extremely acute hearing. :) More likely it is a family treat. :p :)

But if we consider all that is written about the High Numenoreans in general, Elendil, Isildur, Elendur, Aragorn etc., as well as Faramir and Denethor, in particular, it is a sound interpretetion IMHO.
`Ah well, sir,' said Sam, `you said my master had an elvish air and that was good and true. But I can say this: you have an air too, sir, that reminds me of, of – well, Gandalf, of wizards.
'Maybe,' said Faramir. `Maybe you discern from far away the air of Númenor.'
Aragorn says similar thing before he dies: ` I am the last of the Númenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days

All of them attribute their qualities to their high Numenorean blood.

In a way, yes, it is a family trait, as reading the HOME (Peoples of ME) one concludes that the line of the Stewards also descended from Elendil - but not by the partilineal descent, it seems. And Aragorn and Denethor & sons are the only pure-blood Numenoreans we meet in LOTR.

I have no time now to seek for more quotes, sorry. I hope you understand what I mean.

[crickhollow]

I can't help but think Pippin didn't really mature all of a sudden. Only a few days ago he nicked the PalantÃ*r to take a peek, so he still possessed that irresponsible streak there. Only ancient, war-expecting Minas Tirith isn't the place to revel in that. In a way I think Pippin already possessed maturity when he first started out with Frodo and Sam to Crickhollow...

I think it's really a litle bit of both. He's always been the young and light-hearted one...a quality that is both endearing and frustrating, depending on the circumstances. But the poor guy is completely overwhelmed among the might men of Minas Tirith (oo, look at me and my aliteration). Also I think up until this point his experience has been long periods of monotonous trudging across field and under mountain (perfect for acting up), punctuated by brief moments of utter terror. (hey, he mostly slept through the whole kidnapping at the hands of orcs business.)

But here in Minas Tirith, he cannot any longer avoid the danger that he is in. On top of that, he is separated from his best friend. And whistling in the dark really only helps if you're not completely on your own. I get the feeling that both Merry and Pippin could face anything in the world, so long as he had the support of the other. Each feels the loss of the other keenly.



[edit: so have we decided that Denethor was not using the palantir to spy on pippin? I have another question on that subject. is it safe to assume that nothing Denethor sees through the palantir is secret from Sauron? Also, I don't know much about the seeing stones, but I'd always assumed that it was a communication device, and that it allowed to you see distant places. but not that it allowed to to eavesdrop on conversations. Seems like if it allowed you to do that, Sauron had only to listen in on the Council of Elrond (or really any of the significant moments in the story) for him to get an idea of where the ring was headed.

[CrazySquirrel]

You are quite right about the Palantiri. There is an essay about them in the Unfinished Tales.
No eavesdropping is possible, they don't transmit sound- only thoughts of the two users.

[crickhollow]

Thanks for lending your expertise, CrazySquirrel. I think we've established that the Denethor was not using his palantir to spy on Gandalf and Pippin, which means that he had others reporting to him (members of Beregond's company, or others whom Pippin encountered), and also, as Gandalf tells Pippin, he is surmising much even from the little that Pippin tells. which is a much different thing than actual mind-reading.