Passing of the Grey Company + Muster of Rohan

[Butterbeer]

The passing of the Grey Company

Book V, The return of the king


Running order:

1) Introduction and apology
2) Synopsis
3) The chapter in summary form:
4) some more detailed thoughts
5) Oddities and Questions


1) Introduction and apology

Well, having to bang this off pretty much off the top of me head, though i do have the book in front of me, for time's sake ... will have very little time till monday or tuesday so had better at least start this off...

will try and edit and add to it as time allows and will post any new editions as and when.

Coming next will be the muster of rohan, but one chapter at a time ... will get the muster up next week, when i have a mo'.

I will add a placeholder below this post to add additions.
apologies if this is a bit rough and ready.

feel free all to debate whatever you like regarding this chapter, but i'll try and put various mootable points in BOLD as i go along ...

2) Synopsis:

After the breaking of the fellowship, and the small stones that lead to an avalanche in the mountains when Pippin and merry enter Fangorn, the meeting of the hunters and Gandalf and the batltle of helm's deep ... the victory and scenes at Orthanc ... the subsequent discovery of the Palantir ... Gandalf has ridden off with Pippin like the wind to Minas Tirith ... following the presage of imminent war, hailed by the flying wraith(s) ....


3)The chapter in summary form:

Gandalf has ridden off like the wind to Minas tirith, taking Pippin with him on shadowfax.

The winged messenger has been felt riding aloft ... suddenly the imminent pressage of war is keenly felt ... even in the night does doom and danger arrive ... both from the close shave with the palantir and sauron's haste... and from the very air: from this point onwards there is no turning back nor time for rest ... a pivotal point is reached in the road to War: time is now precious and the game afoot 24 hours a day.

What now? the remaining fellowship ask ... the King goes now to the Muster he has ordered ...

"Well for myself" said Aragorn... "it is dark before me. ... an hour long prepared approaches"

Merry is sundered from the remaining fellowship somewhat cruelly from his own perspective ... they ride off making for helm's deep.

Crossing the Isen back into Rohan they are overtaken by a group of horsemen riding hard on their trial.

Aragorn's kin ride to his aid, seeking him from afar in Rohan, with Elrohir and ellodan Elrond's sons.

What summons did they heed?

Elrond's sons bring word from their father 'remember the paths of the dead'

arriving at helm's deep they sleep, all but Aragorn, who takes the Palantir, as rightful owner of the stone and wrestles the Stone from Sauron's will.

He appears in other guise ... showing the sword re-forged ... and this battle of wills in the palantir was a battle worse and more wearying than that of the hornburg.

Yet, it is invaluable and need now drives him as never before ... also it serves to worry sauron and force his hand ... ever setting doubt in his mind and fear .... fully now has the wheel turned full circle as the strategies are focused on pressing sauron and focused on distracting the eye of mordor from it's very borders...

Theoden rides off towards the Muster ... after being dismayed by strider's news that he will take the paths of the dead



Aragorn finally takes a meal and tells Logolas and Gimli the score ...

when gimli challenges the wisdom of Aragorn's actions, he is rightfully sharp and proud : "You forget to whom you speak! ... I am the Lawful master of the Stone .... i had the right .. and the strength was enough-barely."


..." he is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him"

Aragorn learns that the corsairs are sailing to assail the southlands, and therefore must go by the most direct course ....

"then lost it must be..." - Gimli

How sure is Aragorn that the dead will honour their oath? (the oath they swore to Isildur to fight sauron)

Of their free will they follow Aragorn via a short stop at Dunharrow and a much distressed Eowyn.

Fey and grey under the darkening skies they ride towards the ill fated and ill named 'paths of the dead'

through the evil night-dark starless and opressive doors they enter and amongst the dead they are driven on by the will and love for aragorn.

Gimli the dwarf takes this the hardest

Finally they come out and with fear running on before them the grey company followed by the dead reach the stone of erech, where Aragorn states that he will hold the oath fulfilled when the southlands are free of the enemy.

Pressing on in the dawn and riding like the wind and with rumour flying on before them and shouts of the 'King of the dead is come' they ride towards the coasts and battle...

4) Some more detailed thoughts

... coming soon :o

5) Oddities and Questions

... coming soon :o

[Artanis]

Great intro so far Butterbeer, I'm looking forward to the rest of it! :)

Only one short comment for now - when I'm reading this chapter I'm always touched by Aragorn's great joy from meeting his kin, the Dúnedain. I wonder if it was this meeting that gave him the little extra push of self-confidence and strength to use the palantir.

[Butterbeer]

Great intro so far Butterbeer, I'm looking forward to the rest of it! :)

Only one short comment for now - when I'm reading this chapter I'm always touched by Aragorn's great joy from meeting his kin, the Dúnedain. I wonder if it was this meeting that gave him the little extra push of self-confidence and strength to use the palantir.

yeah, cheers, i'll be glad when it's finished too! *sighs* :p

yeah, one of the highlights to me when the Dunedain meet up with Arargorn.

Very good point actually, i had never considered it: did they give him the extra confidence and strength of will to use it? Could well be a factor: how much of a factor i am unsure.

best BB

[The Gaffer]

One of the intriguing aspects of this chapter is the passage through the Paths of the Dead. Two things in particular:

1) Aragorn approaching the dead Rohirrim king (can't remember his name), who had died trying to open a door to somewhere. Where?? Aragorn tells the Dead they can keep their secrets, but once they'd fulfilled their oath, maybe there would be riches for the plundering.

2) "Does he know no fear?" I believe that Aragorn's confidence fully matches his strength of will for this first time here.
- He gets the better of Sauron via the palantir!
- He summons his own people unconsciously
- He commands the Dead.

Is there not a comment in a subsequent chapter about how Legolas realised at this time what a terrifying ruler he would have become had he taken the Ring.

And we cannot over-estimate the importance of his confrontation with Sauron. It plants doubt in Sauron's mind and dramatically alters the course of events.

[Gordis]

I wonder if Aragorn, while confronting Sauron, actually tried to make the Dark Lord believe he has got the Ring?

"We are the rightful owners of this Palantir, yesss, only we, my Preciousss... And you have no right to use the Ithil-Stone, you fishy-fiery-Eye" :D

[Butterbeer]

The Muster Of Rohan


This being the third chapter, of Book V, The return of The King, in the LOTR discussion project.

Chapter III, Book V


Chapter summary:

Now all roads were running to the east to meet the coming of War and the onset of the Shadow.

Theoden rides down out of the hills to Harrowdale: when chance allows merry rides with the king and talks to him of his home, learning too, much about the lands and mountains and folklore of the riddermark ... upon arriving at Dunharrow he finds that the muster has already been done and long ranks of tents and men and horse are ready.

Merry is lonely and opressed by the very scale and size of the Mountains .. the others have all gone ... he had been forsaken somewhat cruelly to his mind by Aragorn ... and three long slow days of riding through such stark and wild scenary is weighing on him ... he wishes in true hobbit style to shut it all out in a small cosy room by a fire ...

We are told much in terms of the Rohirrim how they and their culture is like the contryside fair, green and rolling in part and beautiful with a foundation of strength, cold and hard like the mountains and mist wreathed dales. Of their songs and northern culture, we see the effect on the Rohirrim's language, culture and ways of life.

On arriving at Dunharrow, Theoden and Eomer learn to their dismay that Arargorn had ridden by and indeed ridden the paths of the dead.

"Then our paths are sundered." said Eomer. "He is lost. We must ride without him, and our hope dwindles."

This is interesting, they have only met Arargorn some few days ago ...

yet we can see that now is indeed Arargorn's time ... the time for secrecy is past for him ... he will either find victory and his heart's desire or death and possibly torment. He has openly proclaimed his Lineage to Eomer on the plains of Rohan (one of my favourite scenes) and Anduril's heritage before the doorwards of Theoden .... in battle at helm's deep he has decried "Elendil" and friend and foe alike have seen the light of the west gleaming in battle ... further he has mastered the Palanatir and planted fear, hatred and concern into Sauron's mind....

thus we can assume by Eomer's words and by the intense feelings stirred in Eowyn that Strider,at last, the ranger of the North has truly come full into his own and being driven by need and destiny the power and presence of the heir of isuldir are now both clear to see and keenly felt by those around him ...



Theoden also notices the concern that this causes Eowyn...

We are told some of the histories of the paths of the dead and find out whom it was that Aragorn found in there by the Door, the door that is locked, and leads whither?

An errand rider from Gondor arrives and brings the fateful Red Arrow

Merry is distraught when theoden decides he will be a burdern to cavalry and will not ride to war like the rest of the fellowship, but as the muster begins on a day of shadow wherein no sunlight will ever be seen again, seemingly, a dour depressing dawn as they prepare for their doom,

"This request only did Aragorn make to me, .... that you should be armed for battle ... for my heart tells me that you will need such gear ere the end" ...

Did Aragorn forsee this? More importantly perhaps did he therefore also forsee that Eowyn would ride to battle regardless?

Upon the host leaving Edoras, hope in the form of a mysterious (at least to pippin: and MOST of the riders: how many?) rider appears ...

As they rode rumour came of war in the north, lone men riding wild brought news of foes assailing their east-borders, of orc-hosts marching in the Wold of Rohan…

…mile by mile the long road wound away …. All the lands were grey and still; and ever the shadow deepened before them, and hope waned in every heart …






Descriptive writing

we have murmuring fir woods, soft-sighing trees ... the land is very much alive, or more importantly perhaps much more alive to the Rohirrim, they appear as much shaped in part by the land as their language and songs, but also i feel Tolkien is subtely showing how they connect so much more intensely with the land than perhaps we do in the modern world.

'the mighty Starkhorn loomed up above its vast buttresses swathed in cloud; but its jagged peak, clothed in everlasting snow, gleamed far above the world, blue-shadowed upon the east, red-stained by the sunset in the west'

Not one old tolkien to miss a metaphor: we have the icy-cold blue and dark east and in the west the light ... moreover we are given the perception that this may well be read by those as see it as a premonition of a last waning sunset in the west ... or stained as in premonition of blood and doom ahead ... yet still there the golden light of the west ...

when i read these descriptions of the journey down from the hills to Dunharrow and of the pine clad walls or fast flowing rocky streams and rivers i think very much of the lake-district in England, though i suspect he was thinking further north in Europe perhaps?




Some questions

1) why was this so late, BB? :p
2) have you rushed this, BB? :D
3) What on earth did Baldor son of brego think he was doing daring the paths of the dead, and what was behind the door, the door is locked? ... a middle earth version of our own mooter anduril? ;)
4) did some of the dead being about in harrowdale know the time to honour their Tryst was coming? Eowyn tells that a great host went recently into the hill as if to keep a tyrst ...
5) this deepening gloom, this cloud that made the very air seem brown and stale ... what in your opinion was this and how did sauron create and control it?
6) Did Aragorn forsee that theoden would not take Merry to war? More importantly perhaps did he therefore also forsee that eowyn would ride to battle regardless? If so, regarding Eowyn, did he approve?
7) how did Eowyn get from saying a tearful goodbye to Theoden to standing in the line as a young armed man with a horse and gear etc and a face 'in search of death'?
8) “Where will wants not, a way opens, so we say … and so I have found myself” : how so? ... any ideas? There were many who knew that the hobbit had joined their company ... how many more suspected the slim rider?


end of part one ... the sketchy bit! ;) :rolleyes: :p

[Butterbeer]

coming soon....part 2 "putting some meat on bare bones" ;)

[Serenoli]

Dear BB, despite extensive thinking, have not found answers for questions 1&2. Have been wondering same myself for a long while.

As for the rest, I wish you had spent a little more thought on Eowyn... still, good summary.

3) What on earth did Baldor son of brego think he was doing daring the paths of the dead, and what was behind the door, the door is locked? ... a middle earth version of our own mooter anduril?

Maybe someone challenged his courage and dared him to go? A king cannot very well say, 'I'm afraid to'. ;) Plus, he was apparently drunk when he made the vow. And since Meduseld was but newly-built, maybe also a bit elated at his own accomplishments, thus leading him to rash boasts. I don't get the part about Anduril, having never met him, and I cannot imagine what was behind the locked door.

6) Did Aragorn forsee that theoden would not take Merry to war? More importantly perhaps did he therefore also forsee that eowyn would ride to battle regardless? If so, regarding Eowyn, did he approve?

I think so, and that's why he requested them to provide armor and weapons for him, to indirectly hint to Theoden that he at least, felt Merry should not be left behind.
I think he also knew that Eowyn would ride to battle. His words to her are always such as to dissuade her from doing this. And I think he would not approve of her riding into battle at all, at least that's what his words indicate.

I wonder how long you'll take to actually finish this, Butterbeer? :rolleyes: :)

[Butterbeer]

wotcha! thanks for the reply, serenoli :) .. kinda ghostly quiet here ain't it?

yup questions 1 and 2 are tricky! :D

well, i have some additional questions to post ...prob tommorow on muster of rohan ... i guess i could flesh out some general stuff on Eowyn ... but that chapter although readable as all tolkien is, raises little for me in terms of debate...

However i have more on passing of the grey company to come ... still as regards the flow of the project, i feel it fair for the next poster to have a crack... please do not let me hold owt up ...

i'll add the questions for muster and add more for grey company soonish ...

by monday or tues at the latest.

what are your thoughts on Eowyn, Serenoli, and all?

[Beren3000]

what are your thoughts on Eowyn, Serenoli, and all?
Just peeping in. I have a lot of thoughts about Eowyn, but I can't elaborate on them now. I will post later. By the way, I'm the next poster in the project, and I'm perfectly happy to wait for a while until you put up your questions...

[Beren3000]

So, here's my two cents on Eowyn:

I think Eowyn is quite representative of women in the postwar world. She has seen her male kin fight bravely while she was left at home to "take care of things". She wants a part of the glory; so for a while she nurtures dreams about winning glory in war (which she eventually does) but at the end, realises that her true "glory" would be to regain her "femininity" (sp?) and marry Faramir. (Just as the role of postwar women was to go out and work while the men fought, not to go and fight themselves) At least that's how I see it.
Eowyn could also be Tolkien's defence for women in general: women should not be marginalised or left behind. They should have an active role in the "deeds of the time".

[Serenoli]

what are your thoughts on Eowyn, Serenoli, and all?

I more or less agree with Beren about Eowyn as a representative of post-war women. It was probably at that time, that women started becoming more independent, and Eowyn always seemd to me to symbolise that. And how, in the end, she had to make some kind of compromise between her wishes of glory, and what the rest of the world wanted her to be. She's one of my favourite characters because I seem to see a lot of myself in her... I'm from a male-dominated society, just as she is, and I often feel I'm struggling in the same way she is.

By the way, the relationship between Eowyn and Merry, is also very interesting. Everyone underestimates Merry, and would not let him go to war, and I suppose Eowyn sympathises with him and feels that he is being treated like everyone else treats her. And thats why she takes him along.

I wonder how Eowyn managed to smeak out without anyone noticing. She must have left someone behind in charge, to fulfill her duties, and she also had to borrow her clothes from someone. Elfhelm, and all his eored, at any rate knew... obvious by the way they do not comment on her.

[The Gaffer]

I wonder if Aragorn, while confronting Sauron, actually tried to make the Dark Lord believe he has got the Ring?
I think that was precisely his purpose. It provokes Sauron into attacking too soon, it empties Mordor, it draws his attention; it enables Frodo and Sam to complete the quest. Without it, the rest of the plot doesn't make sense.

[Beren3000]

What summons did they heed?
That's an interesting question. I think there are 2 possibilites.
1) They were alerted by the riders that Elrond sent out and learned that Aragorn rides towards Minas Tirith. (As you have noted yourself, Elladan and Elrohir are with them)

2)They were summoned by Galadriel. After all she was the one who told Aragorn that "the dead watch the road that leads to the sea".

..." he is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him"
I like that quote very much! :)

How sure is Aragorn that the dead will honour their oath?
Again, great question! I think he more or less completely trusted the foresight of Galadriel. But also, think of it this way: you've been dead for a thousand years but your soul can find no rest and is doomed to roam the earth. Then someone comes and tells you: "help me and I'll free you from the curse" wouldn't you jump at the oppurtunity? I think that's what Aragorn had in mind.

[Rían]

Great intro so far Butterbeer, I'm looking forward to the rest of it! :)

Only one short comment for now - when I'm reading this chapter I'm always touched by Aragorn's great joy from meeting his kin, the Dúnedain. I wonder if it was this meeting that gave him the little extra push of self-confidence and strength to use the palantir.

Yes, I've always liked that part too, Arty! I had forgotten it! It's one of the first times (if not the first) that we see a bit of the non-serious side of Aragorn, and peeks into his life before Frodo.

Good point about the Palantir!

[Butterbeer]

Questions, questions, questions ...


so, in the passing of the grey company , and the paths of the dead, why does Gimli the dwarf takes this the hardest?



Is aragorn cruel to leave merry alone and outside from what remains of the fellowship?

Could he not have ridden with gimli or legolas etc?

(now we all know tolkien had plans for Merry, but just what is Arargorn thinking?)


and what must Merry have felt like?



..." he is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him"

Aragorn takes back his own and challenges sauron through the palantir


from the above quote is this something arargorn has perceived directly from the mental duel with sauron? .. or just his general perception?


What other guise did arargorn appear to sauron in?

what do you take this to mean? I've often wondered if this was some mental projected image or an actual disguise he wore ...?

I favour the former, i must say.

[Beren3000]

why does Gimli the dwarf takes this the hardest?
Good question! I think this is because the dwarves, of all races, were the most connected to the earth and thus, by extension, to material things. So anything spiritual or relating to spirits (case in point) would be alien to them.
Is aragorn cruel to leave merry alone and outside from what remains of the fellowship?
No! I think this shows how wise he is. He know that Merry would not be able to withstand the journey through the Paths of the Dead; he was only trying to protect him.
what do you take this to mean? I've often wondered if this was some mental projected image or an actual disguise he wore ...?

I favour the former, i must say.
I definitely agree with you. Sauron showed Denethor a falsified image of his orc-armies just to drive him to despair, I don't see a reason why Aragorn shouldn't be able to do the same.

[Serenoli]

Why does Gimli the dwarf takes this the hardest?

Interesting question... Legolas, obviously was not scared of the dead, as he was an Elf, and Aragorn had the thought of the prophecy to fortify him... but I would have expected Gimli to be as brave as the other Dunedain. Frankly, then I don't know... maybe Beren is right... or maybe he just had a creepy nurse who told him stories of the Bogeyman when he was a dwarfling! ;)

and what must Merry have felt like?

I suppose he must have felt rather like Bilbo did in The Hobbit when the dwarves spoke lightly of him, and he went off on his adventure... rather snubbed in his pride, and maybe a little bit resentful that no one, not even his closest friends, took him seriously... and obviously also very lonely at being left alone with a bunch of strange riders...

[Butterbeer]

well, i think aragorn was cruel here to merry ... did he even go and speak to him and explain where they were going and why he was being left behind?

nope. (unless i am wrong)

merry has been through a lot, chased by nazgul, attacked on weathertop, by wargs in the wild, been through moria, attacked by trolls and orcs in moria, seen a balrog! , been captured by orcs ....

could not he have been taken through the paths of the dead??

why not?

Also why was gimli cruelly left at the back almost crawling on all fours at the end, with even the sons of elrond in front of him?

Might not someone have gone and helped him, picked him up and supported him?

legolas?

take his hand, talk to him?

walk behind to ward off the shades of men that were terrorising the dwarf?

My view is that here we see a less than seemly side to arargorn ... after the duel with sauron and his stepping out of the shadows of secrecy we see his pride .. he has mastered the stone and won a duel with the dark lord ... maybe it has some residual lingering unwholesome effect on him?

i think it out of character for him to be so cold, uncaring and heartless to merry and worse later for gimli so oblivously in need of aid ... no longer caring for those he leads on ...

haste may indeed drive him but at the expense of the dwarf??

is there a parallel to be drawn here with Denethor who has used the stone many times ... and also to a lesser degree saruman?

maybe arargorn won the battle but sauron still had effected his mind to some degree?

[Nurvingiel]

About Gimli and the Paths of the Dead:

I think everyone was caught up in their own fear at that point, and didn't notice how much trouble Gimli was having (though, I actually forget that particular scene).

I think Gimli would want to deal with this himself. He seemed mad at himself for being afraid when he made himself go in saying 'an Elf will go underground and a Dwarf will not' (or something).

To me, it makes much more sense that a Dwarf would be leery of the Paths of the Dead. A Dwarf, of all people, would be aware of underground dangers, and the Paths of the Dead rank very highly on that scale.

[Valandil]

I also think we don't know how scared Aragorn's Dunedain companions may have been - they didn't say. Gimli related his fear to the hobbits, so they faithfully recorded it in their account of things. :)

[Butterbeer]

I also think we don't know how scared Aragorn's Dunedain companions may have been - they didn't say. Gimli related his fear to the hobbits, so they faithfully recorded it in their account of things. :)

well, that's an interesting angle to take... because if we view it as gimli's account, then it (between the lines) suggests he may have not been the only one - or.. that he was bitter about not being helped ... why did legolas who did nor fear the shades of men, not help him out?

what was edited out here for history?

the heirs of Valandil, crawling on all fours in fear? :D

this of course leads to other questions .. if we take the red book as the account as passed on to the hobbits largely ... how objective a tale of the war of the ring can it be?

could not then, nazgul, say, have been largely mis-represented? ;)

Were the exploits of merry and pippin given undue prominence? :p

[Valandil]

the heirs of Valandil, crawling on all fours in fear? :D


Hey! Well... if they WERE afraid, at least they still went and did what they had to do, despite their fear. Commendable, eh?


could not then, nazgul, say, have been largely mis-represented? ;)


Well... perhaps. I'd say they were represented a bit too kindly. :p ;)

[Butterbeer]

Hey! Well... if they WERE afraid, at least they still went and did what they had to do, despite their fear. Commendable, eh?


well, quite.

and after all, we can't expect them to live up to valandil's levels! ;)


Nurv:
I think Gimli would want to deal with this himself. He seemed mad at himself for being afraid when he made himself go in saying 'an Elf will go underground and a Dwarf will not' (or something).

mmm, maybe it started then for Gimli? ... and he never subsequently got on top of it?

In a way the connection with earth and solid uncanny things that is the dwarven world does play well here, i feel,

but what of legolas?

what was he doing?

no one seems to want to address this...

[Nurvingiel]

well, that's an interesting angle to take... because if we view it as gimli's account, then it (between the lines) suggests he may have not been the only one - or.. that he was bitter about not being helped ... why did legolas who did nor fear the shades of men, not help him out?
Well, I did sort of address this when I said Gimli might want to overcome his fear by himself.

I imagine Legolas was duly scared. Aren't Elves sensitive to this sort of thing? Shades of Men and such.

Were the exploits of merry and pippin given undue prominence? :p
Hee. :D As Frodo was the editor, I somehow doubt this. ;)

[Butterbeer]

NURV!!!

what are you suggesting?

that actually frodo got no further than the old forest? .. that it was in fact fatty bolger that bravely took up the baton from there?

well, they say history is written by the victors ... or those with the most time to write ... ;)

nay, regarding legolas, by even frodo's accounts ;) .. legolas was unmoved and felt not the fear at all .. little did he heed them, pale and insignificant he thought them ....

and whilst yes, a small case may be made for the pride of gimli wanting no help, maybe at first, he soon lost all pride and almost despaired .... i cannot see for a momment that he would not have welcomed any help ..esp from legolas at this point.

just what was legolas doing here, marching along whistling looking neither left nor right, and concentrating hard on ignoring everything around him?


Nay, Nurv ... what is truly going on here?

[Serenoli]

NURV!!!

what are you suggesting?

that actually frodo got no further than the old forest? .. that it was in fact fatty bolger that bravely took up the baton from there?

Thats such a funny idea! :rolleyes: :cool:

[CrazySquirrel]

NURV!!!

what are you suggesting?

that actually frodo got no further than the old forest? .. that it was in fact fatty bolger that bravely took up the baton from there?

well, they say history is written by the victors ... or those with the most time to write ... ;)

Frodo or Fatty, what is the difference? In truth, the Ring was destroyed by the nazgul!!! :p
But history is written by the victors...

[Butterbeer]

well, in one very real sense you are right CS ... effectively the ring was destroyed by the nazgul- if we accept the theory they wanted it to be destroyed and never truly sought to carry out their master's wishes ...

Serenoli ... maybe not so funny .... arch theorist Nurv may have hit on something here ....

just what editorial credentials are we given for frodo?? what references?



So ... The Palantir and the eye of sauron .... the will and strength of Aragorn .... did he get lucky?


How much was it sheer belief in his ancestral rights that enabled him so quickly to master the stone?

Was Sauron, shocked and knocked off guard?

would he be able to do it a second time (or at least so quickly??)

what do you think?

[Nurvingiel]

My comment about Frodo was just to say I doubt he played up the significance of Merry and Pippin's roles. I think they did contribute that much. :)

I forgot the quote about Legolas not being afraid.

[CrazySquirrel]

well, in one very real sense you are right CS ... effectively the ring was destroyed by the nazgul- if we accept the theory they wanted it to be destroyed and never truly sought to carry out their master's wishes ...


Yes. Well the nazgul conspiracy (very possible, though) will never be accepted by majority. But let's take Gollum. Where would the Quest have been without him? It would have never succeeded. But has anybody said "thankyou" to his memory, built a monument or something? No. He is mentioned in the Red Book by honest Frodo, but not in the official story. HAVE A LOOK at Silm's "The Rings of Power and the 3 Age":

For Frodo the Halfling, it is said, at the bidding of Mithrandir took on himself the burden, and alone with his servant he passed through peril and darkness and came at last in Sauron's despite even to Mount Doom; and there into the Fire where it was wrought he cast the Great Ring of Power, and so at last it was unmade and its evil consumed.

Is there a word about Gollum? Really the story is written by the victors! :(

[The Gaffer]

Heh. Also, they were posh history-writers: "alone with his servant" indeed. So not alone, then.

[Butterbeer]

My comment about Frodo was just to say I doubt he played up the significance of Merry and Pippin's roles. I think they did contribute that much. :)



:D ...

funny how you can read things two ways ... ;)


right .. next discussion point:

the dead ... the oath breakers ...

how exactly did they fight?

[Serenoli]

the dead ... the oath breakers ...

how exactly did they fight?

Hmmm... I don't think they ever mentioned it in the books... you don't think that maybe they just scared everyone to death? Seeing as they're dead, its possible...

[Gordis]

I don't think they had any material bodies, they were not like nazgul: they had no rings. They were ghosts, living entirely in the Spirit World
So they could hardly interact physically with the World of Light.

Yes, Serenoli is right, they must have scared everybody, that is all.

But there is a strange thing, how come Sauron the Necromancer has not taken such an army of ghosts "under his wing"? Probably he just had no time, as he started the war earlier than planned?

[The Gaffer]

What power would Sauron have over the Dead?

Isildur invoked a curse on the people of Whereveritwas, which presumably prevented them from departing to wherever it is that Men's spirits go when they die. So, these were no ordinary Dead.

Perhaps a more relevant question would be how Isildur managed to curse them in this way and how Eru tolerated/implemented it. (One has to assume there was no Valar involved as they were in the dark about the fate of Men as well.)

[Gordis]

Sauron was known as a Necromancer, so the spirits of the dead were his speciality, so to say.:)
He has played tricks with spirits of Men in the First Age (Gollim and his wife); his "pupil" the Witch-King was the master of the Barrow-wights, so I don't see why he couldn't "lay his hands" on the spirits of the Men of Dunharrow.
Here is a passage from "Laws and Customs of the Eldar". It speaks of Elvish fëar, but it shows that Morgoth and Sauron were ever the hunters for disembodied souls.

"The fëa is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused. Among those who refused the summons (or rather invitation) of the Valar to Aman in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waiting is, the Eldar say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the fëa unbodied would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge - unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion. In like manner even some of the Eldar who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth."


How Isildur managed to curse them we shall never know. I think, he was a powerful sorcerer in his own right.

Isildur was too interested in magic for his own good. All his life he dealt with magical objects. While in Numenor, he meddled with the White Tree, then he brought a black STONE to Erech, all the way from the drowning Numenor! What the hell did he need it for, if not for magic? It is exactly at this stone that he cursed the whole people to wander after death, withholding the Gift of Men from them, the thing that even Mandos himself ever refused to do. And, finally, the Ring...

No, Isildur was much more controversial figure that the chronicles, revised by his relatives, let us to assume.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

the dead ... the oath breakers ...

how exactly did they fight?
I read somewhere that things died just from a touch from one of the dead, but I'm not sure if that was written by Tolkien, so it may be completley untrue.

[Butterbeer]

Gordis:
I don't think they had any material bodies, they were not like nazgul: they had no rings. They were ghosts, living entirely in the Spirit World
So they could hardly interact physically with the World of Light.

Yes, Serenoli is right, they must have scared everybody, that is all.

mmmm... but the barrow wights could ...????

serenoli
Hmmm... I don't think they ever mentioned it in the books... you don't think that maybe they just scared everyone to death? Seeing as they're dead, its possible...

i think the fear was a big factor, but surely not enough on it's own against whole armies ... eventually people catch on! especially in big armies in life or death situations ...

The gaffer:
Isildur invoked a curse on the people of Whereveritwas, which presumably prevented them from departing to wherever it is that Men's spirits go when they die. So, these were no ordinary Dead.

Perhaps a more relevant question would be how Isildur managed to curse them in this way and how Eru tolerated/implemented it. (One has to assume there was no Valar involved as they were in the dark about the fate of Men as well.)

extremely good point gaffer!

well, somehow he did! ... i'm sure Gordis will discuss this better than i can though .... but more importantly why was it 'tolerated' if that is quite the right question ...

by which i mean how was this moral, to curse both the king and his warriors yet also curse the women and innocent children ... to curse a whole society, and worse condemn even the innocent amongst them to many many untold years of doom?

surely, the valar were adrift from the fate of middle earth largely?

Gordis:
then he brought a black STONE to Erech, all the way from the drowning Numenor! What the hell did he need it for, if not for magic? It is exactly at this stone that he cursed the whole people to wander after death, withholding the Gift of Men from them, the thing that even Mandos himself ever refused to do. And, finally, the Ring...

extremely interesting (also) , this, Gor ...

is this tolikien on the one hand saying the noble line of men .. but men still ..arrogant in the lust for (or of) power? (ref to mandos)

But the stone of erech - very interesting ..what do we all think it actually was and signified??

...where's Olmer???

Telcontar Dunedain:
I read somewhere that things died just from a touch from one of the dead, but I'm not sure if that was written by Tolkien, so it may be completley untrue.

well, it would make more sense ... but then, how do they touch if they are only in the spirit world ....

what do you think TD?

[Gordis]

Gordis:


mmmm... but the barrow wights could ...????


I think the Barrow wights were the same houseless spirits (of Men or Elves) that were prevented somehow (by magic, or curse), or refused to go to Mandos. But unlike the Men of Dunharrow, they have inhabited the bodies of long-dead Dunedain Kings in the Barrows. So they were like zombies, with bodies not their own, but MATERIAL, so they COULD interact with the living.

[Butterbeer]

mmm ... but did not the people of dunharrow already inhabit their own bodies?

also, was the whole society cursed or just men of warrior age?

Either way, it's one hell of a curse, but interesting that Isuldir, at this point forsaw that this war would last through countless years, and that a time would come when they would be called upon again ... yet knowing this, decided not to destroy the ring?

[Gordis]

mmm ... but did not the people of dunharrow already inhabit their own bodies?

also, was the whole society cursed or just men of warrior age?

Either way, it's one hell of a curse, but interesting that Isuldir, at this point forsaw that this war would last through countless years, and that a time would come when they would be called upon again ... yet knowing this, decided not to destroy the ring?
They are always called "the Dead of dunharrow" not "undead" like nazgul. The nazgul never died, their own material bodies only turned invisible, but they have them all right.
The dead are ... just dead, their bodies rotten ages ago. They are but spirits, shadows, mist. Nobody even sees them, only feels their presence. And everybody is scared to death.

I am not sure Isildur foresaw all these things. He cursed them to remain in ME as long as their promise remains unfulfilled.
But, perhaps, I don't remember it all... Why do you think Isildur forsaw that this war would last through countless years, BB?

[Butterbeer]

now whilst checking for the requested quote above, and accidently noticing an error in the rotk triv game to boot! ;)

i came over this which i had meant to mention ...

"The eyes of Orthanc did not see through the armour of Theoden; but sauron has not forgotten Isiludir and the Sword of Elendil ..."

how odd ...

the names and title of the arrivals at Edoras (as Aragorn mentions earlier to Gimli: "You forget to whom you speak ", said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. "Did i not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras?"


not to mention to Eomer on the Wold ...

yet there is Master Grima the wormtongue closeted in Orthanc with Saruman, having told all he could of events ... yet Saruman does not know or perceive Arargorn there?

of course as a member of the white Council presumably Saruman knows that the Line of Elros is still unbroken, and also presumably that the shards of Narsil and other heirlooms of the House are still kept in Imlradis ...

so ... even back then, was Saruman but not Gandalf kept in the dark ... if so why?? ... though i doubt it ..

but also ... how come Orthanc did not know of him ...

for me i always presumbed Saurman did know him or of him being there, but then the question is: why then, keep it from Sauron when he is in trouble with his now "master"?

(since he has now no hope of attaining the one)

[Butterbeer]

ok here's the quote:

Then Isildur said to their king: "Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy black master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your Oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end". And they fled before the wrath of Isildur, and did not dare to go forth to war on sauron's part; and they hid themsleves in secret places in the mountains and had no dealings with other men, but slowly dwindled in the barren hills.

[Serenoli]

Good point there, BB.

for me i always presumbed Saurman did know him or of him being there, but then the question is: why then, keep it from Sauron when he is in trouble with his now "master"?

But, then, even though he knew of the heir of Elendil, I suppose it never entered his head, that he would take part in the war, so if he thought of Aragorn at all, he thought of him somewhere in Imladris. And Grima came too late to tell him the news, the Ents had already taken over and the palantir was gone. So when he did realise that Aragorn had come to Rohan, the palantir, his only means of communicating with Sauron, was alredy lost. And he himself was defeated and a spent force.

[Gordis]

BB, thanks for the Quote. You are right, then. The more proof that Isildur was an evil sorcerer long before the finger-slicing episode. :D

And Re: Orthank. I agree , you must have spotted a mistake.

[The Gaffer]

On the "touch of death" thing, I suspect we can rule that out because elves (according to Legolas) considered the spirits to be harmless.

This is clearly a different kettle of fish from, as you say, undead nazgul or even barrow-wights.

Note also that the material we have concerning feär solely refers to elves. I think we can conclude that Morgoth and Sauron were as in the dark about the fate of Men as the rest of the Ainur. I'm not aware of any evidence to suppose that Sauron had any particularly power over the Dead of Men.

A more likely explanation, to me, is that this episode was set in motion in anticipation of Aragorn's need, millenia later, by Eru acting through Isildur. We have words from the "Seer" suggesting that it might have been anticipated, for example.

[Butterbeer]

wotcha Gaffer! :)

well yeah, Mr M the Seer did fortell tell this and other things ... but for Eru to break his own laws? (or at least general principles?)

mmm ..not sure.

Plus the comdemned were all the folk

: men, women and children: at very least the latter innocent and robbed of the chance of life and children and choice ...

sounds a somewhat radical departure for Eru?


Serenoli

(wotcha! :) )

well, grima was in the tower with Saruman, so he would have reported the names .. plus of course Saruman's spies had tracked them for parts of their journey south, knowing their number and composition ...

Wotcha Gor ...

mmm... if so, we better watch Valandil! ;)

[Gordis]

wotcha Gaffer! :)

well yeah, Mr M the Seer did fortell tell this and other things ... but for Eru to break his own laws? (or at least general principles?)

mmm ..not sure.

Plus the comdemned were all the folk

: men, women and children: at very least the latter innocent and robbed of the chance of life and children and choice ...

sounds a somewhat radical departure for Eru?


I can easily buy Eru theory. He WAS most radical, and irrational. It sounds exactly like him to condemn a whole people. Look what he did with Numenor!

What, had the Valar no means to destroy the fleet of Ar-Pharazon? Ulmo the Lord of waters could drawn all the ships and all the warriors like kittens.
It looks like the Valar had pity of men. They just threw up their hands and appealed to Eru. And what did the Dear Creator do? Drawned the WHOLE ISLAND with EVERYTHING there was on it. Only some Faithful had time to leave the land like some rats from a ship...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

mmmm... but the barrow wights could ...????
I think that the Barrow Wights, along with Tom Bombadil are one of the biggest mysteries in Tolkien. They were spirits, who could interact with physical world, but were killed with a song. My guess is that they remained by choice, whereas both the Dead of Dunharrow and the Nazgûl had no choice.

Telcontar Dunedain:


well, it would make more sense ... but then, how do they touch if they are only in the spirit world ....

what do you think TD?
Perhaps 'pass through' rather than touch then. We're never really told about the Battle for the Ships though, so we are not given many clues.

[The Gaffer]

I can easily buy Eru theory. He WAS most radical, and irrational. It sounds exactly like him to condemn a whole people. Look what he did with Numenor!

LOL.

Bit like young Master Samwise, throwing his toys out of the pram when he doesn't get his way.

EDIT: Wotcha, BB.

[Nurvingiel]

On the "touch of death" thing, I suspect we can rule that out because elves (according to Legolas) considered the spirits to be harmless.Hm... that pile of armour and bones seems to indicate otherwise. :confused:

I agree with what you guys have said about Barrow Wights and Nazguls though.

Bit like young Master Samwise, throwing his toys out of the pram when he doesn't get his way.I didn't understand this comment at all until I realized you're the Gaffer. :D That doesn't strike me as something Sam would do. ;)

You know what I really liked about this chapter? The Rangers. I wish they had gotten more page time.

What if there were actually 15 Nazgul. What six other people do you think Elrond would have had in the company?

(BTW if anyone needs the "ë" for fëar it's Alt+649.)

[Butterbeer]

I can easily buy Eru theory. He WAS most radical, and irrational. It sounds exactly like him to condemn a whole people. Look what he did with Numenor!

What, had the Valar no means to destroy the fleet of Ar-Pharazon? Ulmo the Lord of waters could drawn all the ships and all the warriors like kittens.
It looks like the Valar had pity of men. They just threw up their hands and appealed to Eru. And what did the Dear Creator do? Drawned the WHOLE ISLAND with EVERYTHING there was on it. Only some Faithful had time to leave the land like some rats from a ship...



mmm .. i beg to differ ... the law was laid down plain and simple ... they were forbidden to go to the shores of the utmost west .... this was clearly broken, and in anger too, with the corrupted pride of numenor going in a vast navy intent on arrogant war ....

i am not sure in context here, you can judge Eru on that one! ;)

[Gordis]

Hm... that pile of armour and bones seems to indicate otherwise. :confused:

I think the position Brego's (?) body was found in rather shows that he was not attacked, but died a slow death, unable to open the door. He might have been scared to death and lost his way in the caverns. Probably his torch was extinguished...


You know what I really liked about this chapter? The Rangers. I wish they had gotten more page time.

What if there were actually 15 Nazgul. What six other people do you think Elrond would have had in the company?

(BTW if anyone needs the "ë" for fëar it's Alt+649.)
Yes, I agree, there is not enough about the rangers.

Why 15 nazgul, :eek:? Had Sauron given all the Dwarven rings to Men, there would be 16, not 15. But the number 16 is not one of those Fairy-tale numbers with specific meaning... Twelve is.

I don't think that the number of the nazgul was decisive in choosing the number of the Walkers. Nine is the number of Perfection in numerology. It was the right size of the group, not too few, but not too many. Accidentally it was also the number of the Nazgul, and Elrond commented on it. 15 or 16 is already a big group, bound to be detected. No, I don't think that Elrond would have sent more than 9.
Anyway, even had he sent 12, I bet neither Glorfindel or Erestor would be in the group. They were SO needed at home :D and were shiny and easy to spot for the nazgul. And ANY ranger would be as susceptible as Boromir to the Lure of the Ring. So...More hobbits? But where could one get more? Perhaps some Dwarves and lower ranking Elves would be added.

Alt+649 works only with American keyboards, and I get §$]!

[Gordis]

mmm .. i beg to differ ... the law was laid down plain and simple ... they were forbidden to go to the shores of the utmost west .... this was clearly broken, and in anger too, with the corrupted pride of numenor going in a vast navy intent on arrogant war ....

I am not sure in context here, you can judge Eru on that one! ;)
Oh, yes, I can. The laws were broken. But who broke them? Babies in cradles? Fair maidens? Old crones? All the population was destroyed, not only the fleet. Even the fleet was sent to Valinor not so much by Ar-Pharazon, but by Sauron, who gloated at its impending destruction.

And note, the Numenoreans were not the first to break laws. Morgot was. Noldor were. Why didn't Eru blast Utumno, or Angband , or Barad-Dur? Why didn't he drown Beleriand with Feanor and his brood? Double standards, me darlings. Don't tell me he loved his children equally. Valar and Maiar always got a second chance. Men didn't.

[Butterbeer]

Oh, yes, I can.

*loud audience call* oh no you can't!!!

( do you like pantomime Gor? ;) )

..er.. do you HAVE pantomime where you are? ...er ..where are you anyway?




well, i think the point here is that a sepcific ban and and a specific threat of retribution were clearly marked out .... this was the deal made to give the line of Elros et al the island of numenor ... he had no choice but to follow through on that one ...


And note, the Numenoreans were not the first to break laws. Morgot was. Noldor were. Why didn't Eru blast Utumno, or Angband , or Barad-Dur? Why didn't he drown Beleriand with Feanor and his brood? Double standards, me darlings. Don't tell me he loved his children equally. Valar and Maiar always got a second chance. Men didn't.


ahh, politics heh? ... what a wonderful picture of the creator we paint ... we'll have some here up in arms! ;)


But Eru generally was not that involved was he ... but if he agreed to the law laid (and given reprisal) down upon the numenoreans, then if, and when, called on, he has no choice ... but for him to intercede on Isildur's behalf, to curse a bunch of unheard-of edian in middle earth he's cares nothing for one way or the other, seems to me not very likely nor to ring true, me darlings! (great phrase, btw! :) )

[The Gaffer]

(BTW if anyone needs the "ë" for fëar it's Alt+649.)
Handy, unless you're on a Mac. In which case there is a groovy utility you can select from, if only I could be arsed....:o

But what I want to know is how you pronounce it. It was years before I realised Sauron was suppose to be sow-ron (rhyming with cow-ron) and not saw-ron nor sow-ron (rhyming with toe-ron-ron, te-toe-ron-ron).

And let's not even get into doon-e-dine...

EDIT: back to topic.


The power of oaths.
One of my pet theories is that in LOTR oaths/promises have special power. How often do we encounter people who break their word getting struck down? It happens to Gollum, for example, at the end.

Did Morgoth ever break any oaths? He was just doing what was in his nature. Men, however, have free will. Let the maggots roast! (Definitely an Old Testament deity this one)

Hang on, I'll hunt out a few examples I have tediously dredged up in previous Discussion postings and you can all agree that I'm totally right and that's the end of that.

[Butterbeer]

why aye, pal!

ah bugger it .. it's still saw-ron, to me.

i always go with 'dun a dan', meself.

[Butterbeer]

..er... yeah .. back to topic (i'm the worst for that y'know ... any excuse or not ... ahem :o )


Hang on, I'll hunt out a few examples I have tediously dredged up in previous Discussion postings and you can all agree that I'm totally right and that's the end of that.

yeah, that's usually how it works ... :p

but i admire your confidence ;) ...

[The Gaffer]

Foo's yer doos?

EDIT: here's the only example I have time to root out for now (but it's a good ane; prophetic words about "haunting" you cannot deny):

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?p=474113#post474113

[Butterbeer]

King Edwards, of course! But keep the skins on...


...


and you can all agree that I'm totally right and that's the end of that.

well. you knows your 'taters ;) ... boy, it DOES work like that! :D

hauntingly spooky, best BB :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that the number of the nazgul was decisive in choosing the number of the Walkers. Nine is the number of Perfection in numerology. It was the right size of the group, not too few, but not too many. Accidentally it was also the number of the Nazgul, and Elrond commented on it. 15 or 16 is already a big group, bound to be detected. No, I don't think that Elrond would have sent more than 9.
I disagree. Elrond said at the council that he would send Nine walkers, [b]to match the Nine Riders of the Dark Lord[/b.] But agree that Elrond would have been hesitant to send 15 or 16 as the key to succeding was getting as far as possible without being detected.
Anyway, even had he sent 12, I bet neither Glorfindel or Erestor would be in the group. They were SO needed at home :D and were shiny and easy to spot for the nazgul. And ANY ranger would be as susceptible as Boromir to the Lure of the Ring. So...More hobbits? But where could one get more? Perhaps some Dwarves and lower ranking Elves would be added.
I agree that a Ranger would be as susceptible to the Lure of the Ring as Boromir, yet I still think at least one more would have been chosen. I also think that Gildor could have been chosen, along with one more dwarf.

Alt+649 works only with American keyboards, and I get §$]!
Try Alt+137

[Gordis]

I agree that a Ranger would be as susceptible to the Lure of the Ring as Boromir, yet I still think at least one more would have been chosen. I also think that Gildor could have been chosen, along with one more dwarf.
Try Alt+137
Gildor was still somewhere between the Brandywine and the Havens. I dimly remember he stayed there all through the war, singing and wandering. :D
No, I think that Nine was just the Max group size. Even sauron didn't want more nazgul! :p
Unless, as Olmer suggested, the Fellowship could pick more hobbits to have them to spare. One gets killed, but the Quest continues. With 8-9 hobbits the Ring could go very far!

Alt+137 - "©£|" Here what it does on an old Mac!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gildor couldn't have been near the Brandywine, as it is him who bought the news to Rivendell about Frodo's plight with the Ring.

[Gordis]

Gildor couldn't have been near the Brandywine, as it is him who bought the news to Rivendell about Frodo's plight with the Ring.
No, it was one of his elves - a messenger. Gildor was not at the Counsil of Elrond. Actually the hobits left him in the Shire on their way to Buckland and found him three years later at the same spot, right when they were riding to the Havens. He was together with Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel.

He said to the hobbits:
I am Gildor,’ answered their leader, the Elf who had first hailed him. ‘Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea.’ It is exactly what he was doing all through the War of the Ring. "Tarrying a while" in the peaceful Shire. :D

[Butterbeer]

well, maybe he had a marrow allotment?

serious business growing marrows y'know!

(and you should know if anyone does!!)

[Serenoli]

You know... I never really understood the marrow joke. Is this the same marrow we have in our bones?

And about the Eru business... I never really thought of it like that, but I agree with Gordis and the Gaffer. Eru was unfair, really... there was definitely a Ban, but he never told tham Numenor would sink under the sea if they broke it! And the promise not to break the Ban was extracted from their distant ancestors... the ones who broke the Ban never really gave any promises, so the whole point about oath-breaking is invalid.

[Butterbeer]

it's a vegetable, tis a northern english obsession with some people: twas speculated sometime ago that the Witch King of Angmar may have had a keen interest in horticulture up t'north, like , esp growing the largest marrows ....

well i am not sure i agree serenoli they knew the edict and that it wasn't a temporary ban ... it wasn't so much a promise made by the Numenoreans, but a law laid down on condition of granting the island of Elenna to them ...

not to sail out of sight westwards of the island or to tread into the utmost west ... the line of elros chose mortality ... thus they could not tread there...

what would happen if they did get there though? would they be immortal? - is there no death there, even for mortals?

[Valandil]

OK let's keep it to these chapters.

If you want to discuss Numenor and/or Angmar - you can find the right thread elsewhere, or start one. :)

[Butterbeer]

thus the opening salvo of the war begins -

"Well for myself" said Aragorn... "it is dark before me. ... an hour long prepared approaches"

this quote has always made me wonder ... what do we take it to mean?

there are a couple of things i'd like to look at: firstly, we know that the heirs of Elendil and isildur had the foresight of their lineage and could bend their minds and see things far off (mainly, i contend with the palantir - and this is before arargorn attemps it) - but to me this quote implies heavily that arargorn to some degree can see the road ahead - yet he forsees it is dark ... or do we take it to mean blocked? .. if just 'dark' in some ways this is a pretty fair guess - but i have never took it in that light myself.

also Aragorn's sight in this respect had been pretty well hidden from the readers to this point, anyway, what do you think?

The other thing here, for me, is the

"... an hour long prepared approaches"

what are we to take this to mean in context of arargorn himself saying it?

Surely he cannot know that the doom of middle earth is pre-judged - and indeed that is another whole question in itself, entirely (which i suggest we do not follow here, sadly)

does he refer to the words of the seer?

(again, remember this is before the Dunedain and Elrond's sons bring the words from Elrond bidding him remember the words of the seer, Malbeth

if so .. how do we take "an hour long prepared approaches" to mean?

prepared by whom?

[Serenoli]

I haven't read this for many days, and can't remember exactly where he said this... but, when he talks about 'an hour long prepared approaches', he may be referring to the fact that he'll have to go back to Gondor and claim his kingship... maybe that hour?

[Butterbeer]

yes, maybe ... though it occurs to me he may be referring here in this chapter, to the doom of Arwen ... and Elrond's words that he would only allow a marriage and all it curtailed for Arwen, if Arargorn fullfilled his destiny somehow and became High King of Gondor and Arnor.

In terms of long prepared ..we have of course Arwen long preparing his standard, the tree, the seven stars and the crown ... also he has forsook taking either a wife or a lover, waiting for Arwen ...so there is that aspect too ..

though i still think it an odd thing to say or imply ...esp as it is before they ride off and are overtook by the Dunedain riding hard from the North, seeking him and bringing the words of Elrond,, to remember the words of the Seer.

BTW Serenoli, thanks for your kind words, thoughts and support - much appreciated. :) :)

very best, BB :)

[Butterbeer]

5) this deepening gloom, this cloud that made the very air seem brown and stale ... what in your opinion was this and how did sauron create and control it?

from the Muster of Rohan ... this question has not been attempted yet ... i'd be interested to know what you all think on this one...

[Gordis]

I would say volcanic ash and fumes from Orodruin, carried on the East Wind.
Sauron can control weather to some extent, surely.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with Gordis. It was even suggested that he had a hand in the Caradhras storm.

[Butterbeer]

yes, TD and Gordis i don't doubt sorcery was involved in attempting to control the weather or winds ... although i always thought caradhras was unclear ... i had always thought of it as some sorcery, but i suspect as Gor says it was probably partly man (or orc etc) made ... but these clouds were so thick to almost make it completely dark and stretched from over Gondor right up to Rohan - and who knows how far beyond?

It would take vast incredible amounts of ash and fires and what not to do that.

the line later in the book " the darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his master had set for it.."

implies to me something other than just a man made massive pall of smoke and fumes ... though it is the best explanation so far ...

i think tolkien was implying a sorcery as much as anything else ... certainly a mix of sorecery and some man made elements, as gor suggests?

it is appromixametly 360 miles as a crow flies from Orodruin to edoras (on an accurate calculation from the map and scale in my book (a red, hard-bound, Allen and Unwin, 1966) - i guess in style of the red book of westmarch?

and that is in a straight line: these clouds or whatever must have covered a HUGE square area...

btw: was another will fighting Sauron or was it fate that these clouds - or the wind changed not at the time set by sauron?

(to be fair we should probably move discussion of that bit to 'the battle of the pelennor Fields' when it is posted up ...)

How much do we think this darkness is to make men despair .. to lower moral and engender fear? or how much was it to make trolls and orcs happier and better able to fight day and night?

best, BB

[The Gaffer]

In this particular case it probably is Sauron, or else just a big metaphor.

I don't think all of these things can be attributed directly to Sauron, though, who was himself but a servant of Morgoth. LOTR is replete with references to how evil things "begin to stir" at times as if responding to some call. In Unfinished Tales (or is it the Silmarillion?), Morgoth says as much to Hurin: that his thought is bound into the fabric of the world from the very start, and so reaches into everything.

[Earniel]

Aragorn's kin ride to his aid, seeking him from afar in Rohan, with Elrohir and ellodan Elrond's sons. What summons did they heed?
I'm guessing Galadriel's. She has that very nifty forseeing mirror, and a speed-dial line to Elrond over their Rings if I'm not mistaken.

How sure is Aragorn that the dead will honour their oath? (the oath they swore to Isildur to fight sauron) Pretty sure, it seems. The power of oaths has been well discussed and seems something best not to meddle with in Middle-earth. And Elrond seems to endorse the choice, Elrond being someone whose advice is IMO very dependable.

I wonder if Aragorn, while confronting Sauron, actually tried to make the Dark Lord believe he has got the Ring?

"We are the rightful owners of this Palantir, yesss, only we, my Preciousss... And you have no right to use the Ithil-Stone, you fishy-fiery-Eye" :D
I wonder too, although I doubt that Sauron would even have needed prompting to believe that Aragorn did possess the Ring. It seems foolish of Aragorn to attempt to reveal himself so soon otherwise, he was still in Rohan and while Rohan's forces were amassing, they would not follow Aragorn but their own king. And neither was Aragorn already seated firmly on the throne in Gondor. So it would seem foolish of Aragorn to reveal himself to Sauron if he didn't have something powerful to fall back on, like the Ring. I reckon Sauron couldn't imagine anyone not wanting to use the Ring.

We are told much in terms of the Rohirrim how they and their culture is like the contryside fair, green and rolling in part and beautiful with a foundation of strength, cold and hard like the mountains and mist wreathed dales. Of their songs and northern culture, we see the effect on the Rohirrim's language, culture and ways of life.
I always thought the idea of Dunharrow, hidden valleys in the mountains where people could flee to and live and hide in while war raged on their lands, was very cool. Yet it amazes me that they would chose a hide-out so closely to the Path of the Death which they clearly fear very much. You'd think they'd pick another, more safer spot to hide.

After reading the discription of Dunharrow, I started thinking of how gletsjer movements could have formed the valley. I'm such a geek. :o


"This request only did Aragorn make to me, .... that you should be armed for battle ... for my heart tells me that you will need such gear ere the end" ...

Did Aragorn forsee this? More importantly perhaps did he therefore also forsee that Eowyn would ride to battle regardless?
I don't think Aragorn forsaw it, but I reckon he suspected they might try anyhow. But leaving them behind was in his eyes the best and safest place for them.

And even if Merry would not ride with the Rohirrim into battle, it could still be that the battle would come to Rohan, if Minas Tirith fell. That way Merry would still better be prepared for battle. Clearly Rohan itself isn't out of the woods yet, as they hear tales of war and assailants when the Rohirrim finally depart.

It could well have been that Dunharrow did see battle when their cavalry was gone to Gondor, we're just not told because no important character was left there.

I wonder how the people of Rohan reacted after finding Éowyn gone. Would they have suspected she had snuck off? Or would they have suspected foul play? In any case I bet there would have been much unrest.

What on earth did Baldor son of Brego think he was doing daring the paths of the dead, and what was behind the door, the door is locked? ... a middle earth version of our own mooter Anduril? ;)
Nice one! :D Too bad that game floundered without its captain... But back on topic, I always wondered what he was doing there, at that locked door and what had been behind it. The treasury of the dead? And of what did he die and why did he make no attempt to turn around, instead dying on the threshold, after having beaten with sword on the door? Curious indeed.

How did Eowyn get from saying a tearful goodbye to Theoden to standing in the line as a young armed man with a horse and gear etc and a face 'in search of death'?
Being very good at speed-dressing? ;)

I also noticed that Éowyn apparantly expected Merry to guess who she was. But Merry seemingly only recognized her when she lost her helm on the battle-field. Clearly he was not paying much attention, I gather.

I think Eowyn is quite representative of women in the postwar world. She has seen her male kin fight bravely while she was left at home to "take care of things". She wants a part of the glory; so for a while she nurtures dreams about winning glory in war (which she eventually does) but at the end, realises that her true "glory" would be to regain her "femininity" (sp?) and marry Faramir. (Just as the role of postwar women was to go out and work while the men fought, not to go and fight themselves) At least that's how I see it.
Interesting comparison. I always likened Éowyn to the female warriors from old myths with which Tolkien must have been familiar, but I never saw a possible connection with the post-war era.

Also why was Gimli cruelly left at the back almost crawling on all fours at the end, with even the sons of elrond in front of him? Might not someone have gone and helped him, picked him up and supported him? Legolas? Take his hand, talk to him? Walk behind to ward off the shades of men that were terrorising the dwarf?
I got the impression that this was something that each of the company had to face on their own. I guess I likened the passing of the Path of the Death to something you continually have to concentrate on to keep going, where you can't so much as look back to see how the others are doing, because the moment you look back you'll lose your nerve, and might go running off in desperation, straight into the dead and possibly go stone cold crazy on the spot.

Isildur was too interested in magic for his own good. All his life he dealt with magical objects. While in Numenor, he meddled with the White Tree, then he brought a black STONE to Erech, all the way from the drowning Numenor! What the hell did he need it for, if not for magic?
Interesting idea that the Stone of Erech was necessary for Isildur to curse the mountain-people. I never saw that connection before.

[Serenoli]

After reading the discription of Dunharrow, I started thinking of how gletsjer movements could have formed the valley.

Maybe I'm a geek, too, but what ARE gletsjer movements?



I wonder if Aragorn, while confronting Sauron, actually tried to make the Dark Lord believe he has got the Ring?

"We are the rightful owners of this Palantir, yesss, only we, my Preciousss... And you have no right to use the Ithil-Stone, you fishy-fiery-Eye"

I suppose he wouldn't really have to convince Sauron, as Earniel says. I mean, Sauron was expecting everyday someone from the enemy who would challenge him, ever since he realised they had his Precious. And who better than Aragorn, son of the tark who stole it from him in the first place??

But, I still wonder what their conversation was like. Did Sauron ask questions, did he cajole or use threats? And what DID Aragorn say? And why didn't Tolkien write that scene, it must have been very exciting, yet he leaves only hints... do you think he found it too hard to decide exactly how it should go... or was it because actually seeing the Dark Lord worsted in verbal combat would dispel the air of mystery and fear that surrounds him in the rest of the book?

[Earniel]

Maybe I'm a geek, too, but what ARE gletsjer movements?
Sorry, glacier movements. Got stuck on the Dutch word gletsjer, for some reason I thought the word existed in English as well. Sort of embarrassing considering my geology handbook in school was actually in English... :o

[CrazySquirrel]

But, I still wonder what their conversation was like. Did Sauron ask questions, did he cajole or use threats? And what DID Aragorn say? And why didn't Tolkien write that scene, it must have been very exciting, yet he leaves only hints... do you think he found it too hard to decide exactly how it should go... or was it because actually seeing the Dark Lord worsted in verbal combat would dispel the air of mystery and fear that surrounds him in the rest of the book?

I think that is the case, Serenoli. I think any conversation rendered in actual words would spoil the image of mysterious power and terror that is associated with the Dark Lord.

[Valandil]

... But back on topic, I always wondered what he was doing there, at that locked door and what had been behind it. The treasury of the dead? And of what did he die and why did he make no attempt to turn around, instead dying on the threshold, after having beaten with sword on the door? Curious indeed.


I suspect that the unfortunate adventurer became disoriented - most likely by trickery of the dead. I think he thought he was trying to get out, that his only escape lay through that door - when ironically the way out was to turn around and head the other way - unimpeded. Just the sort of joke I think the Dead Men of Dunharrow would like to play on a trespasser.

[Butterbeer]

5) Oddities and Questions

... coming soon

so... rather like a wine that likes to age ... blow off de cobwebs ... and here come the oddities and thoughts and questions on this chapter ...

Why grey? (as in grey company)

Is this a metaphor for the twilight on many levels between the living an dead, and the living that may yet be on the road to either living or dead, or worse? Is it the uncertainty of their path or merely that either Black or white were already used and anyway had no descriptive emotion?

What resonance does JRR aim to put into 'the passing of' the grey company?

Personally i always thought there was more in the naming of the Chapter than mere musings...


This whole chapter is pivotally based on the History of the Numenorean and their Arnorien and Gondorean heirs (rightful or not) ..

Is it possible we could have this chapter without the Black stone of Erech?

And what do we read into the this tone and or the powers of the Line of Elendil to curse a whole prople years beyond count?

Is indeed this curse of all the people, 'the oath-breakers' any better or worse than the wholesale destruction of babies, children and women of Numenor?

[The Gaffer]

5) Oddities and Questions



so... rather like a wine that likes to age ... or a ripe stilton, blue-veined as your granny's waps, redolent of jakey's sock. But not nearly as cheesy.


Is it possible we could have this chapter without the Black stone of Erech?

And what do we read into the this tone and or the powers of the Line of Elendil to curse a whole prople years beyond count?

Is indeed this curse of all the people, 'the oath-breakers' any better or worse than the wholesale destruction of babies, children and women of Numenor?
Much worse. At least the properly dead get to wake up for the great chorus at the end of time. The improperly dead have to hang around for centuries with nowt but the occasional pissed Rohirrim for company.

Again, the power of oaths in M-E. Elrond was right to warn against hasty oath-making. It will get you. But also, of course, a lovely plot device to tie in with the ancient history and the ultimate defeat of Sauron.

It is hard to see how this chapter could exist without Aragorn knowing of the curse and the rallying point of Erech. He would only have taken the Paths if he'd seen the Black Fleet in the Stone and been reminded of the words of the Seer.

[Butterbeer]

I agree. The whole chapter would be impossible without the curse.

What power had the Kings to create such a curse? Gordis and Crazy Squirrel debated i think somewhere about the sorcerous side to the line of Numenor ... but is it more as the Gaffer hints above, that we see in this chapter, JRR's creating a mythology for the middle earth where indeed no oath should be taken lightly and that thus the power of an oath has a power in itself - is it thus that as they broke their oath not to aid Elendil / Isuldur, thus this was the power or invocation that allowed the Heirs of Numenor to curse a whole people?

What of the oath they also broke to Sauron? For they, affraid of the wrath of Elendil / Ilsudir broke that too, being too affraid to aid him! Was this also a factor in the power of the curse laid on them?


.........................................


any thoughts on the symbolism on the coming of Arargorn in the dark and grey out of the north being labelled 'the King of the dead'?

'the king of the dead is coming ...' ... do you think, perhaps this brought a wry smile to Tolkien's lips and a twinkle to his eye?