LotR book V, ch.1: Minas Tirith

[Artanis]

Brief summary
This chapter covers the day in which Pippin and Gandalf arrives at MinasTirith.

In Minas Tirith Gandalf and Pippin are heading straight to the hall of Denethor, but not before Gandalf has warned Pippin about the power and shrewdness of the Steward. We get the first warning that Aragorn perhaps will not be welcomed by Denethor if he is to come to Minas Tirith. Pippin offers his service to Denethor and swears loyalty to him, remembering Boromir who died to defend him and Merry. Then Denethor begins an interrogation of Pippin about his journey with the company and Boromir's death. At last Pippin is released, but Gandalf has worked himself up and there follows a quarrel and a mental battle between him and Denethor.

Pippin is left by himself as Gandalf goes to meet the captains of Gondor, but he soon finds new friends in Beregond, one of the Guards of the Tower, and his 10-year old son Bergil. From them he learns much about the ways and customs of the city, and of its old history as well as the events from the recent days. But he also has much to tell, and his stories from his journey together with his humbleness and courtesy soon make the Men respect him, in spite of his childish appearance.

In the evening Bergil and Pippin watches the armed forces from the outskirts of Gondor march into the city. They are bold, strong men, but too few. We get the first glimpse of Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth. At last Gandalf returns, and the chapter ends gloomily with his prediction of the dawnless day, echoing Pippin's earlier comment:
‘So ends a fair day in wrath!’
A pawn's view
“Pippin looked out”.... with these initial words the perspective of the narrative is set. Everything that happens during the day spanned by this chapter is seen through the eyes of the young Hobbit. A nice little turn that allows us to know the ordinary people in the city of Minas Tirith, primarily represented by Beregond and his son Bergil, instead of following Gandalf in his meeting with the captains and other people of high rank. Pippin is as ignorant as we, the readers, are, and when he gets to learn about the ways and customs of the city, we learn with him. We see everything for the first time and we are filled with curiosity. We see the dead, white tree in the courtyard of the citadel, and we wonder with Pippin about the significance of the tree.

Following Pip around is also a good way to provide the chapter with some lightness, to balance the dark and heavy atmosphere in Denethor's hall and the approaching war from the East. Pippin has grown much mentally since he set out from the Shire, but he has not come of age yet and has not lost all of his childish attitude.

The Steward and the steward
The clash of Denethor and Gandalf provides for the drama in this chapter. Denethor is prideful but also poweful, and not many people in Middle Earth would challenge Gandalf as he does. Is he aware of what Gandalf's origin?

It is interesting to read Pippin's observations of the two men as they are having their little mental fight:Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled.So again we see that there is more to a person than what leaps to the eye!

While Denethor seems to care only about the realm of Gondor and especially the city of Minas Tirith, Gandalf is primarily concerned about the whole of Middle Earth, aiming to preserve at least some worthy things, and the defence of Minas Tirith is just a way to carry out this task.

Is Denethor really capable of reading other people's mind?
He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off.
And the Lord Denethor is unlike other men: he sees far. Some say that as he sits alone in his high chamber in the Tower at night, and bends his thought this way and that, he can read somewhat of the future; and that he will at times search even the mind of the Enemy, wrestling with him.These words about Denethor makes me wonder what this 'long sight' is. Was it an innate ability due to his Númenorean ancestry, only increased in power by the technology from Númenor? I think Tolkien gives us strong hints here.

Another question is, did Gandalf know or suspect that Denethor had made contact with Sauron?


The Steward and the King
Not referring to Denethor and Aragorn, but Denethor and Theoden. :)
Denethor did not make a good first impression on this reader, and I think he was not intended to. He comes across as both rude and cunning, especially in his treatment of Pippin, and his grief over Boromir is not sufficient to excuse him. :mad:Théoden is a kindly old man. Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power, though he is not called a king.
The contrast between Theoden and Denethor is indeed striking. They are both rulers of a kingdom, and they have both lost a son. And there ends the likeness, as far as I can see. The difference will become even clearer further on in the story, when Merry is entering the service of Theoden. There is also an interesting contrast between Denethor's stony hall and the seat of Theoden, the golden hall of Edoras.

[Artanis]

Memory of past ages
This is perhaps what makes this chapter bear a feeling of sadness – the hints of the greatness of Gondor and its main city Osgiliath in former times, and the references to Númenor and the ancestors of Denethor and Aragorn. But now it is clear that decay is dominant. Their Númenorean blood are mingled with that of lesser men, and the people are basing their pride upon memories and tales of the ages past. Only half of the houses are inhabitated, and children seems to be too few to keep up the population. Most people have none or very little knowledge of things that goes on outside their borders. The Gondorians display almost an Elvish behaviour here. Why do they not have children? What is it with these people that makes them seemingly unable to look forward, to shape the future, to explore the world?

Preparing for war
The people of Gondor are used to a life in the relative proximity of Mordor – I think we may assume that having the Enemy so close is why warriors are held in so high esteem there. We may also consider what this constant threat and reminding of the Shadow does to their mindset. Beregond says: Yet, Master Peregrin, we have this honour: ever we bear the brunt of the chief hatred of the Dark Lord, for that hatred comes down out of the depths of time and over the deeps of the Sea.
These are indeed hard times, and the people remaining in the city now counts mostly men in arms, preparing for war. The old, the women and the children have fled into the mountains. But a few of the children have stayed behind, like Bergil, and I wonder why it is so, and how their parents could allow it.

If Beregond is representative for the men, as we might think he is, their mood is swinging between high hope and the shadow of Doom.
‘Nay, though all things must come utterly to an end in time, Gondor shall not perish yet. Not though the walls be taken by a reckless foe that will build a hill of carrion before them. There are still other fastnesses, and secret ways of escape into the mountains. Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green.’With these words this Gondorian shines out to me. :) Consider the contrast to Denethor, who in his pride seem to think that the existence of Minas Tirith is all that matters in this world.

Favourites
At the beginning of the chapter Pippin is reminded of the palantir and his experience with the Dark Lord, and he shudders while
[...] the noise of the wind became filled with menacing voices.
This is typical Tolkien and a clever way to describe Pippin's mood. The mere thought of the palantir incident makes even the forces of nature seem threatening to him.

[...] three riders swept up and passed like flying ghosts in the moon and vanished into the West.
This is also so typical Tolkien – he's hinting about events going on, but does not give any clear answers. Who were these three riders? Those who have read the following chapters may at least make a guess. :)

Another favourite is the description of Minas Tirith - the city in the morning as seen by Pip for the first time. It's marvellous. :)

And at last, Pippin's speech to the guards at the outer wall: ‘Man!’ cried Pippin, now thoroughly roused. ‘Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a man, save perhaps now and again by necessity. Do not let Gandalf deceive you!’This, I think, is Pippin in a nutshell. What great. :)

[Artanis]

I know my intro has not covered all aspects of this chapter - if so it would have been at least twice as long. :D Feel free to talk about other issues than those I've put forward.

This has not been one of my favourite chapters, but working with it for this project I have discovered things that I had not catched before. I guess Tolkien always has something in store for you, no matter how many times you read his books. :)

[The Gaffer]

Nice job, Artanis. Let's hope we can inject some life into the discussion.

Is Denethor really capable of reading other people's mind?

These words about Denethor makes me wonder what this 'long sight' is. Was it an innate ability due to his Númenorean ancestry, only increased in power by the technology from Númenor? I think Tolkien gives us strong hints here.
I guess we get the literal answer in later chapters, though Gandalf's comments are interesting. Sauron was unable to ensnare Denethor in the same way he turned Saruman into a traitor. This would suggest that Denethor does have innate powers which at least enabled him to use the palantir without being utterly overthrown.

Later on, we learn that he knows more of Gandalf's plans than he might have been expected to find out through the use of the palantir.

So, I would say a bit of both. It puts Faramir's triumph over the temptation of the Ring into a different light.

[Artanis]

Thank you Gaffer. :)
Sauron was unable to ensnare Denethor in the same way he turned Saruman into a traitor. This would suggest that Denethor does have innate powers which at least enabled him to use the palantir without being utterly overthrown.You're right, I've not looked at it from that angle before. But there is one more thing to consider. Later on we will learn that there are one other that is able to communicate with Sauron through the palantir, and with success too. That person is Aragorn, and he does so with authority because his inheritance makes him "the lawful master of the stone", in his own words. I wonder if that lawful right is increasing his ability to wrench the stone under his will. If that is so, then you may say that Denethor also had some right to use the stone and had some aid by this, a right that neither Saruman nor Gandalf may claim.

[Butterbeer]

ArtanisLater on we will learn that there are one other that is able to communicate with Sauron through the palantir, and with success too. That person is Aragorn

yes, indeed Artanis! Coming soon...
*drum roll*
'the passing of the grey company' ...

where, i beleive there is just the slightest possibility of discussing this! ;)

thanks for doing such a good job on 'Minas tirith', i particularly like your views on Pippin! :)

I think it is suggested that despite the lessening of the Numenorean blood over many thousands (or many hundreds?) of years in the South ... Denethor has by some genetic or (tolkien blodd line / fate if you prefer) chance inherited ( and no doubt at all in my mind - worked hard to hone and sharpen) some of the far-seeing perception of the Numenoreans and those of high lineage and thus of the Elves. I think it clear it is suggested this is rarer and rarer in Gondor as it declines, but i also suggest that Denenthor was unusually perceptive even for some of the High Kings of old ...


Denethor was not descended in unbroken lineage from Elendil and was not master of the stone. Therefore he was not the rightful owner of the stone as was Aragorn. However his mind would be more adapted and finer tuned to its uses.

I think sauruman had been using the orthanc stone for MUCH longer then denethor (probably long time before he was even born) and had more time to be corrupted: though even saruman was not totally enthralled.

For Denethor: he also had the motive combined with pride (indeed the fulcrum of how Sauron would attempt to twist him via the palantir) but he also had as his motive his Duty and the protection of his people and the will to fight Sauron.

Denethor was a great leader and steward until his mind was finally corrupted by pride and despair (mainly by sauron via the palantir: i suspect even Sauron secretly respected him in terms of his sight, will and perception)

...although Denethor had always been a proud man from all accounts (here we see a parable from JRRT: pride and cunning: denethor and sauruman ... pride and cunning equals folly and corruption, lest tempered by goodness)

As gandalf or the elves can bend their thought or their sight outwards so can the kin of Numenor, to varying degrees, we have seen this many times ...

Nay denethor could not master the stone, only its true rightful owner had the chance (if he had the power or force of will) to do so.

BTW: for a light-hearted and fun alternate take on this chapter: see the lyrd of the rings in rpg: by a fateful chance tolkien would be proud of we are doing the alternate version of this chapter even now

*ghostly clear voice fades out back into the west* :D

best for now ... lots more to discuss in this chapter though, well done,

best BB :)

[Artanis]

Insightful post there BB!
yes, indeed Artanis! Coming soon...
*drum roll*
'the passing of the grey company' ...;)And that folks, was todays advertisement! :D where, i beleive there is just the slightest possibility of discussing this! Sure BB! :) The Minas Tirith chapter is harder to discuss without dragging in future events, because there are so many incidents in this chapter that points forward. It is naturally so because it is the first chapter in the third volume of LotR. But we'll try not to rush ahead. :)
thanks for doing such a good job on 'Minas tirith', i particularly like your views on Pippin! :) Thanks! One of the admirable things about Pip is that he has the ability to get on well with all kind of people. He is not daunted by Denethor, but speaks up to him in a courteous manner and gains, if not the Steward's respect, then at least his accept. He easily makes friends with Beregond and is having serious conversations with him, as well as having fun with his son Bergil.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You're right, I've not looked at it from that angle before. But there is one more thing to consider. Later on we will learn that there are one other that is able to communicate with Sauron through the palantir, and with success too. That person is Aragorn, and he does so with authority because his inheritance makes him "the lawful master of the stone", in his own words. I wonder if that lawful right is increasing his ability to wrench the stone under his will. If that is so, then you may say that Denethor also had some right to use the stone and had some aid by this, a right that neither Saruman nor Gandalf may claim.
Yet IMO Denethor served Sauron's services almost as well as Sauron could have wished. He didn't want someone to come rushing out to Mordor or chasing the Ringbearer. He needed someone to stay at Minas Tirith and preach about the inpending doom of the city and all of ME.

[The Gaffer]

I don't agree with that assessment. Denethor had foreseen the attack and called for reinforcements from throughout Gondor as well as from Rohan. The city was well prepared.

He only lost his marbles at the very end during the siege, when he was shown the black fleet sailing up the river and it seemed hopeless that Rohan would be able to make any difference.

[Butterbeer]

While Denethor seems to care only about the realm of Gondor and especially the city of Minas Tirith, Gandalf is primarily concerned about the whole of Middle Earth, aiming to preserve at least some worthy things, and the defence of Minas Tirith is just a way to carry out this task.


i have always wondered about this ...

(though i don't doubt Gandalf did care technically about all middle earth)

but did not gandalf appear to care mainly about the western part of middle earth .... were there not other istari out there in the east?


Another question is, did Gandalf know or suspect that Denethor had made contact with Sauron?

interesting question this.

Certainly suspect ... he knew that denethor had longsight and must have wondered about a palantir ... especially as Minas tirith abounded with rumours of Denethor going up to a high room at night and seeing lights and whispers that the lord fought mental duels with him ...

[Serenoli]

[...] three riders swept up and passed like flying ghosts in the moon and vanished into the West.


This is also so typical Tolkien – he's hinting about events going on, but does not give any clear answers. Who were these three riders? Those who have read the following chapters may at least make a guess.

I've thought and I've thought, and I still can't figure out who those three riders could be! Not Aragorn on his way to The Paths Of The Dead, because all the Rangers followed after. Perhaps.. the guy who brought the Red Feather from Gondor? But I always thought he came alone... If you have any idea who they are, do tell me..

[Artanis]

but did not gandalf appear to care mainly about the western part of middle earth .... were there not other istari out there in the east?Gandalf's task was to assist the people of Middle-Earth with keeping Sauron in check. So I think it makes sense for him to stay in the western parts, where Sauron abode.

[Artanis]

I've thought and I've thought, and I still can't figure out who those three riders could be! Not Aragorn on his way to The Paths Of The Dead, because all the Rangers followed after. Perhaps.. the guy who brought the Red Feather from Gondor? But I always thought he came alone... If you have any idea who they are, do tell me..I think it was the guys carrying the red arrow. There were at least two of them, as following chapters will reveal. It makes sense to send more than one man with a message of such vital importance, and Denethor was not stupid, whatever one may say about him.

[Earniel]

*still catching up*

Pippin is left by himself as Gandalf goes to meet the captains of Gondor, but he soon finds new friends in Beregond, one of the Guards of the Tower, and his 10-year old son Bergil. From them he learns much about the ways and customs of the city, and of its old history as well as the events from the recent days.
I always liked the part where Pippin meets Bergil. Bergil is portrayed so nicely, from the moment where he threatens to put Pippin on his head to the moment where he and Pippin walk back into the city after seeing the armies arrive. To me it gave the idea that, while Gondor is past its Golden age and in decline, there is still some hope for the future.

While Denethor seems to care only about the realm of Gondor and especially the city of Minas Tirith, Gandalf is primarily concerned about the whole of Middle Earth, aiming to preserve at least some worthy things, and the defence of Minas Tirith is just a way to carry out this task.
It is quite obvious that Denethor sees his task only as protecting Gondor, and possibly Rohan too, since they are Gondor's allies. He seems to have little confidence in the capabilities of the other peoples of Middle-earth in defending themselves from Sauron.

Although he is not wrong in the assumption that it will be at Minas Tirith where the heaviest and the first blow will fall, I think his pride robbed him of more potential allies along the road.

Denethor wasn't one of my favourite characters but I think he was Tolkien's way of showing that not all good guys, all 'high', wise and strong men have to be likeable. It gives another shade of grey between the sides of good and evil, I think. I also thought it provided it a nice parallell between Boromir and his father. Both were impressive, noble men, but both are not immediately likeable either.

These are indeed hard times, and the people remaining in the city now counts mostly men in arms, preparing for war. The old, the women and the children have fled into the mountains. But a few of the children have stayed behind, like Bergil, and I wonder why it is so, and how their parents could allow it.
I suppose that even though most of the populace was sent into safety, the city simply needed people besides soldiers and warriors to operate. The healers, the cooks and such would probably have need of helping hands and people who they could send around for certain errands. They couldn't use the warriors for those tasks as they probably had more pressing things to take care of.

I'm thinking also that with certain boys, they would have refused to go and hide 'with the girls'. I gather some fathers thought it easier to allow their sons to remain behind rather than have their sons sneak out and hide until the carts and wagons with refugees have departed.

[more later]

[CrazySquirrel]

It is quite obvious that Denethor sees his task only as protecting Gondor, and possibly Rohan too, since they are Gondor's allies. He seems to have little confidence in the capabilities of the other peoples of Middle-earth in defending themselves from Sauron.

Although he is not wrong in the assumption that it will be at Minas Tirith where the heaviest and the first blow will fall, I think his pride robbed him of more potential allies along the road.

Well it IS Denethor's task to protect Gondor and Rohan, his allies. It is NOT his task to protect Lorien or Imladris or the Shire, though he does it indirectly, drawing most of Mordor's force to himself.

I disagree that "his pride robbed him of more potential allies along the road."

What allies? Denethor has sent his ELDEST son, the Captain of the White Tower, whose presence was crucial in the time of war, to Imladris to SEEK HELP. Do you really believe that he sought only the clarification of the dream? No! In that case he would have sent a messenger and a letter. Would Boromir refuse if a REAL MILITARY HELP from Imladris, or Lorien, or the Dunedain, or the Lonely Mountain were offered?? Of course he would have gladly accepted!
Only Denethor was wise and learned, he knew the Elves will give no help. Perhaps only some magic help? But Denethor is eager even for that.

Boromir says himself "But still we fight on, holding all the west shores of Anduin; and those who shelter behind us give us praise, if ever they hear our name: much praise but little help. Only from Rohan now will any men ride to us when we call.
`In this evil hour I have come on an errand over many dangerous leagues to Elrond: a hundred and ten days I have journeyed all alone. But I do not seek allies in war. The might of Elrond is in wisdom not in weapons, it is said."

But when Aragorn asks him "Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?' Boromir is confounded, as that was NOT what he sought.
`I was not sent to beg any boon, but to seek only the meaning of a riddle,' answered Boromir proudly. ...'For though I do not ask for aid, we need it. It would comfort us to know that others fought also with all the means that they have.'

Denethor was desperate for any help and any alliance. But none was offered.

[Earniel]

Well it IS Denethor's task to protect Gondor and Rohan, his allies. It is NOT his task to protect Lorien or Imladris or the Shire, though he does it indirectly, drawing most of Mordor's force to himself.
Um... I never said that was his task? :confused: Wouldn't have expected him to either. The Shire was virtually unknown territory and Lothlorien had taken on more the proportion of a myth than reality.

But yes, in my opinion Boromir indeed came to Imladris for council and advise, not for troops or weapons, as the quote you gave seem to indicate as well. In hind sight it might be considered somewhat of a risk to send Boromir, the Captain of the White Tower half across the continent for the answer on a riddle but perhaps that shows how much importance the people of Gondor gave to this sort of vision and prophecy. Maybe how much of their hope they had invested in these words.

I suppose it would stand to reason that in these dark times military aid was sought. But since it is far from clear from the text that Boromir came to ask that of the Elves (my memory can fool me, so please, feel free to correct me with quotes on this), I'm going to assume it didn't happen. I personally dislike making big assumptions about things that are not mentioned. I like my stories simple and straigh forward. :p What's it called? Face-value?

But I suppose my statement about Denethor's pride costing him allies is perhaps moot already. Regardless of the fact Gondor at this point only had a military ally in Rohan, there wasn't much help to receive from elsewhere anyway. Everyone was at risk of being attacked. Even Denethor's own Gondorean lords sent what men they could spare to Minas Tirith, but no more. If we take the appendices into account where it is mentioned that Lothorien, Erebor and others were also attacked in the same time frame as Minas Tirith, it would istand to reason.