LotR Book IV, ch.9&10: Shelob's Lair and The Choices of Master Samwise

[azalea]

Main events of chapters 9 & 10:

Gollum leads Sam and Frodo into a tunnel, then leaves them. Sam and Frodo are then confronted by an unknown creature, which turns out to be Shelob, an evil being in spider form. We are given her history, as well information on Sauron’s dealings with her. She has lived in the tunnel for time untold, and no being had ever escaped from her webs. We are also given the details of Gollum’s plan to use Shelob to regain the Ring.

In chapter 10, Shelob has bound Frodo and is attempting to carry him off. Sting is beside him. Sam attacks Shelob using Sting in an act of seemingly futile bravery. After a battle with her, he is victorious with the help of Sting, the Phial of Galadriel, and Shelob herself. Thinking Frodo is dead, Sam struggles with what to do next, then resolves to try to take the Ring to Mt. Doom himself, and complete the task appointed to Frodo. Orcs arrive; Sam puts on the Ring to hide himself, and overhears two orc captains talking. In doing so, he discovers that Frodo is alive. The orcs take Frodo prisoner, locking him in the tower. Sam is shut out.

Observations and points for discussion:
General:
Shelob is a great device Tolkien uses to have Sam get the Ring. Not only do we have a really cool battle with an evil creature, but of course her venom would mask signs of life in Frodo so that Sam thinks he’s dead. It is a great way to bring us from the tunnel to the next suspenseful scene at the tower.

Language:

I surmise that the word Ungol refers to Ungoliant (Shelob’s ancestor), with ungol meaning spider? Then torech would mean Lair, so that Torech Ungol means spider’s lair, hence Shelob’s (spider’s) Lair? Then Cirith Ungol means Spider’s Cleft, referring to the narrow pass through the mountains that goes by the tower. You Elvish-speaking folks can back me up on this (or correct me!).

Sam can understand the Black Speech when wearing the Ring = Tolkien’s affinity for languages + makes the story more realistic (of course orcs wouldn’t be speaking Westron in Mordor) + it helps the reader to see the Ring’s power grow in relation to its proximity to Sauron. Although the fact that he can understand them due to the Ring is just a device to neatly allow Sam and the reader to “hear” what the orcs are saying, it works because it does fit nicely within the given framework of the story – he is already wearing the ring to hide from the orcs, and we know the ring has many powers.
I forgot that orcs said Hola! :) Also, I like the word Lugburz. :D

Descriptions:

The geography of the tunnel and path is amazing, and I’m sure Tolkien had a map of it at least in his mind, knowing at what point it is blocked in relation to the other parts of the tunnel, etc.

We are described the dark black sky outside, the thick air in the tunnel, the mental effects of being in it, the dulling of the senses, and the foul smell (was it dung? Vomit? Decaying bodies? A mix of all three? What do you think?). These descriptions help the reader to “be there” and to feel the growing evil as the hobbits get nearer to the end of their road.

Great descriptions of both Sam’s and Gollum’s fighting styles as they tussle.

There is an interesting comparison of Shelob to dragons, that her hide isn’t soft in spots as theirs is.

Compare the hobbits’ mental states at the beginning of this chapter versus after they have entered Mordor. To me, it feels very different before they go in: although apprehensive, they still retain some of their “pep;” afterwards, the mood changes to extreme weariness and they are just short of despair. To me, it is an intentional difference written by Tolkien to give the reader a sense of how simply being in Mordor is crippling. It isn’t just the barren land and darkness; it is Sauron’s presence that affects the very air of the land, and also affects the very spirit of those within it. This sense in turn helps the reader to “see” the Ring’s reactions as it nears its maker. It also serves to differentiate between being outside of Mordor (forboding), and then actually entering the land (oppressive). The reader can actually imagine how it would feel.

Tolkien describes the window in this tower as being a “red eye.” Could the Eye of Sauron simply have meant his “window on the world?” Meaning both the red glow from the physical window in Barad-dur coupled with the fact that he had a palantir (seeing-stone) and also special powers (that allowed him to communicate with the Nazgul, etc.)?

References:

A reference to Tom Bombadil is dropped in, when Sam says he wishes Tom were there. We are apparently meant to compare the feeling of being in the tunnel with that of being in the Barrow Downs, or that it is the closest thing that Sam has to compare it to. Then he has a vision of Galadriel and reminds Frodo of the star-glass. Do you think this is coincidence, or was Sam’s thought of Tom the conduit for the seemingly telepathic help that comes – the remembrance of the item that is then instrumental in helping to get away from Shelob?

When Shelob’s history is given, we have a connection to both The Silm and The Hobbit (Ungoliant > Shelob > the great spiders of Mirkwood).

We have references to elf song – Sam imagines one about this part of their adventure and Frodo advancing on Shelob with his weapons, and again later on in ch.10. I think it’s a way to tie the history of Middle Earth and the Ring to that moment, that Frodo using the light of one of them is a part of the bigger story of the Silmarils. It’s also another look at Sam’s notions of these events being within the greater timeline (and his acknowledgement that what they are doing is as important as any task done in the songs he’s heard).

[azalea]

Favorite moments:

One touching moment for me was when the hobbits are traveling through the tunnel, and Sam finally is moved to clasp Frodo’s hand. I think that’s a beautiful tidbit, demonstrating not only the bond between the two, but is a natural reaction of all of us who are in a scary situation. Without sight, we can rely on touch to help us maintain a connection to others, and in making that connection, we feel safer.

There is also the suspense Tolkien builds as they walk through, unsure of where to go, with a hissing surrounding them.

Very cool part when they run into the “wall” that turns out to be webbing! At they don’t know it’s a spider. It is interesting that the elvish blade can cut it whereas the man made blade cannot. Why, do you think? Is it the material used, or something else?

Battling Shelob:

This is my favorite scene: Sam under Shelob sticking Sting straight up in the air. Here is a scene where Tolkien shows how evil will do itself in. It isn’t Sam who deals the crippling blow, but Shelob who impales herself on the sword held aloft. This reminds me of Gollum later on, and also Sauron AND Saruman. By their own evil actions they bring about their downfalls, rather than those on the side of good dealing the death-blow. Tolkien takes pains to avoid the hobbits being the ones to actively kill the baddies. Through this I see Tolkien as a man whose philosophy was the use of violence only as a means of self-defense, that another’s life should be spared if at all possible. Then again, it could just be his characterization of the hobbits, and his attempt to keep it consistant. What do you think?

Also, this incident serves to show that Tolkien’s villains aren’t easily vanquished; again and again in the story something else must assist in the task (such as the case of the Witch-king later on). Again, is this perhaps to add depth to the story, or to keep his characters consistant (how could a hobbit defeat Shelob when other stronger beings could not)? She is described as impaling herself with “strength greater than any warrior’s hand.”

When she impales herself, it describes her “beloved flesh.” This relates to the earlier descriptions of her flesh as “evil layers.” How do you think her flesh relates to her consumption, i.e., the more life she consumes, the more layers of flesh she gets. This then relates to the earlier passage about her wish to consume life until she grows so big the mountain could no longer hide her. Give your thoughts/ theories about this.

The Phial of Galadriel:
When Frodo uses the star-glass, we are treated to a literal battle between light (from the star of Earendil) and darkness. We have a nice tie-in here to The Silmarillion. I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the Elvish spoken through Frodo here (and Sam later). Was it the star? Galadriel? Any theories on how/ why this happened, and its effects on Shelob?

Sam also speaks elvish, or something speaks through him, when he uses the phial. Is it a spell, or channeling? It is as if Shelob is having an encounter with an elf instead of a hobbit. Why did Tolkien do this?

Then it describes that Sam’s spirit sets the liquid’s “potency in motion.” How is this possible/ what do you think about this quote (figurative or literal)?

How is Sam’s confrontation with Shelob different than Frodo’s?
Does the fact that she is wounded make the difference? “The beams of it entered into her wounded head” when seen in light of the earlier description of her “impenetrable flesh” and her layers of flesh. Do the layers protect the true evil within the spider body, and when it is penetrated the evil can then be affected by the light? We later read that she “healed herself from within.”

Interesting passages:

Shelob and Gollum: “…her lust was not his lust. Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who only desired death for all others, mind and body, and for herself a glut of life, alone, swollen till the mountains could no longer hold her up and the darkness could not contain her.” Tolkien said that the book was about death – how does this passage relate to that theme? I think that both Death (Shelob’s lust) and the Ring (Gollum’s lust) are about having power over others, and the power to killing is one way to having power over another. In killing, you are demonstrating that you have the ultimate power over that person – the power to end their life. This put me in mind of what I have read and seen about serial killers, and that they feel a sense of power and of ownership of that person by killing them; “collecting” as Shelob is said to collect living beings, feeding as much on their life as on their flesh. Also interesting here is the removal of Shelob from the world, much as Tom is, outside of the realm of rings and towers.
I found this to be a quite interesting passage, and would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on it. What impressions do you get upon reading it?

Sam’s choices: He desires vengeance on Gollum, but says that it isn’t part of the task and should not be attempted, a nice lesson for us, and another telling bit about Tolkien’s philosophy of using violence only for self-defense or as a way of keeping hobbit characteristics consistent.
Sam then contemplates suicide, so that he may follow Frodo (and be released from his own despair and responsibility for seeing the task completed). He then reasons that that would be “to do nothing,” and that the task still needed to be done.

Cool quote: “’I wish I wasn’t the last,’ he groaned. ‘I wish old Gandalf was here, or somebody. Why am I left all alone to make up my mind? I’m sure to go wrong. And it’s not for me to go taking the Ring, putting myself forward.’
‘But you haven’t put yourself forward; you’ve been put forward. And as for not being the right and proper person, why, Mr. Frodo wasn’t, as you might say, nor Mr. Bilbo. They didn’t choose themselves.’”

His choice is to stay as is, take the Ring back, or to attempt the task. He later feels like he made the wrong choice in going on, but did he? Really, if he hadn’t taken it, it WOULD have been found, so was there the hand of Fate reaching into his heart, guiding him first to take it, and then to be moved to go back? Or was it simply a result of his nature, and a happy coincidence that he made each choice? A little of both? Anyway, it seems that he was a good choice Gandalf made in allowing him to come along in the first place! Just think if he hadn’t been “dropping eaves!” :)

Before he leaves, he says he’ll come back for Frodo’s body after he completes the task. We see that this decision is difficult and it is hard for him to actually proceed. It made me wonder what might have happened if Frodo had actually been killed. Could Sam have succeeded? How might the Ring’s destruction have happened differently (if at all!)?

The orcs: “It’s going well, they say.” “They would.” This whole conversation sounds as if Tolkien might have heard it during his own war days.
Here the mental seed is planted of Sam being an elf warrior. What do they mean, do you think, when the one refers to leaving Frodo lying there as a “regular elvish trick?” Meaning, that they would think that he was the only one, or that they wouldn’t know there was an elvish warrior, or what?
And eeeeeewwww, it’s disturbing when he talks about how they didn’t let that orc down from the webs, even though he was wide awake. Good orc characterization. :O
The one orc says of Frodo “He’s precious,” meaning to Sauron. Heh, heh.

[Forbidden movie references: I’m breaking my own rule, but I wanted to mention one way that I thought PJ was successful in bringing this scene to the screen: he dramatized Shelob’s attack on Frodo, whereas Tolkien only briefly describes it after the fact and instead chooses to focus on the fight between Sam and Gollum. I feel that showing the attack was effective in the movie. Another movie change that I think worked for the film medium – not showing Sam take the Ring]

Now about the ending sentence of this chapter, which closes out The Two Towers: Can you imagine having to wait a YEAR to read what happens, as they did when it was being published? Compare it to those of us waiting for Year 7 of Harry Potter, I guess!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Great intro azalea. This is one of my favourite chapters aswell.
I love the fact that Sam's love for his master out did all fear that he may have been feeling. It show's that love does indeed make you stronger.

Cool quote: “’I wish I wasn’t the last,’ he groaned. ‘I wish old Gandalf was here, or somebody. Why am I left all alone to make up my mind? I’m sure to go wrong. And it’s not for me to go taking the Ring, putting myself forward.’
‘But you haven’t put yourself forward; you’ve been put forward. And as for not being the right and proper person, why, Mr. Frodo wasn’t, as you might say, nor Mr. Bilbo. They didn’t choose themselves.’”
This passage is one of my favourite in the trilogy. It's very real, something I could imagine myself saying in that situation. The argument between the noble thing to do and the normal.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Azalea you made a very good job and I have little to add.
I think that the comparison of the Hobbits to the Elves (espectially the elven warriors that I associate with the elves that have been in Valinor) shows how much the part of the journey that the Hobbits have already done enobles them already (like first born)

Tolkien only briefly describes [Shelob's attck] after the fact I had never noticed that, but now that you make me notice it it might mean something: perhaps the actual actions of this evil creature are unimportant if not for the consequences that they have on the path of the good guys?


This chapter is also where we get the following quote that shows the special attachment that Sam has for Frodo
No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts, where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth, alone, will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate.

[azalea]

Thanks, guys!
You made some good points, wizard, and I agree with them.
[BTW, I noticed some typos in my intro -- sorry about that, and I'll try to go back and edit when I have time!]

[The Gaffer]

Most excellent intro, azalea. Well done.

’I wish I wasn’t the last,’ he groaned. ‘I wish old Gandalf was here, or somebody. Why am I left all alone to make up my mind? I’m sure to go wrong. And it’s not for me to go taking the Ring, putting myself forward.’
‘But you haven’t put yourself forward; you’ve been put forward. And as for not being the right and proper person, why, Mr. Frodo wasn’t, as you might say, nor Mr. Bilbo. They didn’t choose themselves.

I agree with you and TD: this is a key quote.

LOTR is, IMO, Sam's story, and this passage shows why. His primary characteristics: humility and determination, are evident.

It is his innate characteristics that determine the right choice. Anything else would have resulted in the Quest failing. Fate, in Tolkien's world, is not a deterministic inevitability, but a destiny that arises from people fulfilling their potential.

The same theme is borne out by the phial, which responds directly to the qualities of the wielder. The mechanism is irrelevant, though it is clearly, IMO, intended to be a spiritual link.

Two things leading on from this: the "unknown" Elvish words also denote a spiritual passion, and a connection to the broader struggle between good and evil. I would guess this comes as part of Frodo's elvish air, though I guess that we could view that, having previously used the Ring, he has a "foot on the 'other side'" and therefore connects to the elvish spiritual world.

(I love how Shelob had heard them before and heeded them not! It implies both that the words have power in themselves and that Shelob has more.)

The second thing is to do with your comment on the film. This was a good example to me of how films change my conception of books. Re-reading this chapter, I had forgotten that Frodo stopped running and turned to face Shelob. His courage, reflected in the blaze of the phial, drives Shelob away. That is a totally different kettle of fish to the well rendered but pretty bog standard chase sequence we got in ROTK the film.

Lots more to discuss here. Well done once again and I hope we attract a few more mooters with their views.

[Rían]

Then it describes that Sam’s spirit sets the liquid’s “potency in motion.” How is this possible/ what do you think about this quote (figurative or literal)? Reminds me of that bit in the Sil when Fëanor dies: "Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke..."

[Rían]

Shelob is a great device Tolkien uses to have Sam get the Ring.
I've never understood why Tolkien even wanted Sam to have the ring :confused: (besides an interesting story line and a fight, etc.) What do you guys think? It seemed to me that this was an important point for JRRT, but I can't think why...

[The Gaffer]

IMO it was for Sam, as he represents ordinary people, to show his mettle.

With Frodo, and everyone else gone, Sam had to make choices which affected everyone's future. It mirrors what happens at the end of the book: it is Sam who is left behind (to overpopulate the Shire with the fruit of his loins) when all the fancy folks had sailed off into the West.

One of the reasons why I've come to regard it as Sam's story.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with the Gaffer. He was the ordinary man. Frodo was adopted by Bilbo, and was reasonably wise in elven-lore. Sam knew none of this, and it was his belief for the right thing that got him through it.

[CrazySquirrel]

I may be weird, but I love the orc-talk in this chapter. Gorbag and Shagrat. If one wants to learn what is really happenning in Mordor, one has only to overhear the orc-talk.

[Rían]

hmmm, that could be it, Gaffer and TD - do you think there's any other reason? I always thought it was kind of contrived. Maybe that's just it - looking at how an "ordinary" guy would deal with this kind of thing...

[azalea]

Great points, Gaffer.

Rian, I agree with the others' assessment of why Sam got the Ring, BUT ALSO while reading it I got the feeling that this may have been one of those passages to which JRRT was led, rather than him having planned it that way all along. It seems that he knew he wanted Shelob in there, and then he (Tolkien) found himself with Frodo incapacitated, and what would naturally happen next? It just seems like that may have been his train of thought as he planned out the sequence, and of course it works for the reasons the others stated.

I mean, it could have been Sam that was the one stung, but that wouldn't have been good at all. So it had to be that Sam got the Ring, but certainly Frodo couldn't have died, so we have Sam bearing it for a while, doing a nice demo of how the Ring corrupts even those with the best intentions (the garden-world sequence, but that's later!), and rescuing Frodo, which may not have been possible (or realistic) if he hadn't been invisible.

It also may have been in part because Tolkien wanted him to have been a Ring-bearer, because, let's face it, we all love Sam and it's really cool that he got to go across the sea eventually, right?

Anyway, good question!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It could be to show Sam's strength. Other than Bilbo, he is only one to have given the Ring up freely, and Bilbo had Gandalf to help him. Sam didn't, he only did it because it was the right thing to do. I also agree with azalea. He crossed the Sea because he was a Ringbearer. Maybe Tolkien really wanted him to follow his Master cross the sea.

[The Gaffer]

I may be weird, but I love the orc-talk in this chapter. Gorbag and Shagrat. If one wants to learn what is really happenning in Mordor, one has only to overhear the orc-talk.
No you're not weird (or else we both are).

I like how they are scheming to "set up on their own" somewhere.

What about:

Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side
What are we to make of this?

[CrazySquirrel]

No you're not weird (or else we both are).
I like how they are scheming to "set up on their own" somewhere.
What about:
Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side

What are we to make of this?
Thank you, Gaffer.
Isn't it interesting that Orcs seem to like Sauron ("He knows a good orc when he sees one" said Grishnakh proudly) but dislike and fear the nazgul? And the Nine obviously kept Morgul orcs in line, so Ithilien was not despoiled. I bet, the lush Morgul Vale flowers were never tramped! Compare it with the desolation near the Morannon.

[Gordis]

I bet, the lush Morgul Vale flowers were never tramped!
Sure, I would skin the body off any orc who threads on my flowers! :p

[Rían]

Good points re Sam. I, too, like that he gets to go over the sea. And you're right - the only other one to give it up, Bilbo, had some help from Gandalf (altho Bilbo had it for MANY years!). Yay Sam!

[Rían]

Isn't it interesting that Orcs seem to like Sauron ("He knows a good orc when he sees one" said Grishnakh proudly) but dislike and fear the nazgul? That is strange! I've never thought of that before. In fact, I can't even remember that line! I'll have to check out that theme in my next re-read.

[Butterbeer]

mind you, how often would the orcs actually be face to face with sauron? especially those guarding the pass? They may be promoted ("knows a good orc..." via intelligence and his eye... but the order would come down through Barad-dur i guess. Whereas they will have had actual contact with the Nazgul and been in dire fear when in their presence... certainly the Morgul boys.

I too enjoyed the orc conversation: it brought the world to a fuller life.

Loved it when they think Sam is a mighty tark or Elf Lord: a hidden presence yet a power felt like a looming shadow on their mind...


I agree Azalea that tolkien writes an intensly evocative and sensory description of the stairs and the tunnel.

We see both the real beginnings of the bludgeoning power of the ring as it draws nearer it's master and the fire ... how it can see and hear and know of the orcish thoughts and begins to grow in it's powers.


I don't find it contrived Rian: firstly it's a great story, for a while we assume frodo is dead ... and we are suddenly cast ourselves into the first person stark choices of master Samwise...

it also through sam's fresh perspective gives both us (and Sam) a much deeper, richer, objective and well developed idea of how the ring is changing, getting heavier, becoming more active, more open to the EYE .... it helps us understand what Frodo will go through on his journey through Mordor ... both physically but more importantly mentally and spiritually.


Azalea:
The Phial of Galadriel:
When Frodo uses the star-glass, we are treated to a literal battle between light (from the star of Earendil) and darkness. We have a nice tie-in here to The Silmarillion. I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the Elvish spoken through Frodo here (and Sam later). Was it the star? Galadriel? Any theories on how/ why this happened, and its effects on Shelob?

Firstly yes veritably a battle between light and dark: "may it be a help to you in dark places" .... galadriel foresight in the mirror? ... OH! Where's OLMER? :D

Ouitside forces whether from within the Stone through the captured light from the Silmarils or from the bended thought of Galadriel or even beyond ... i think played a part .. maybe only when the will and beleif were poured into the stone by the bearer did this happen ... maybe?

In Sam's case i think the elvish probably was a suggestion from outside the lair or tunnel... or an inspiration.

Course' old Shelob whilst hating the Light intensly... it hurt! and not just for physical reasons .... didn't care a whit about the elvish names .... what matter they to her, in her dark lair? ... and to her singular world and cares?


very well written summary Azalea.



i wonder just how long Gollum (had his plan been succesful) would have had to have waited to get the ring back? :eek:

[Earniel]

I'm late, I know, but catching up. Great into, Azalea. :)

There is an interesting comparison of Shelob to dragons, that her hide isn’t soft in spots as theirs is.
Shelob as monster is quite interesting. The comparison to dragons gives the idea that she is indeed a quite powerful monster and one to be feared as well, without actually saying it is so. I also loved the bits how it was described that she was indignant for being actually beaten in her own lair by something so puny and harmless looking. Her lust for vengeance, her pride, it makes her more human than animal, which makes her even a more interesting literairy enemy.

To me, it is an intentional difference written by Tolkien to give the reader a sense of how simply being in Mordor is crippling. It isn’t just the barren land and darkness; it is Sauron’s presence that affects the very air of the land, and also affects the very spirit of those within it. This sense in turn helps the reader to “see” the Ring’s reactions as it nears its maker.
Interesting observation. Tolkien had so much ingenius ways of describing things. He didn't just say "Mordor is a bloody aweful place." He made you realise it on your own by all these little tidbits.

I think it’s a way to tie the history of Middle Earth and the Ring to that moment, that Frodo using the light of one of them is a part of the bigger story of the Silmarils.
I agree. It's one of those things that you only pick up after you read the rest of the books but it gives LoTR a bigger scope: it isn't just one story with an end and a beginning, it is a part of an ongoing history of a world that actually breathes life and that could have been ours.

It is interesting that the elvish blade can cut it whereas the man made blade cannot. Why, do you think? Is it the material used, or something else?
Maybe the Elven smiths remembered Ungoliath's part in destroying the Light of the Two Trees in Valinor and decided to take the danger of her and her brood in account when making weapons. There were also several places in pre-flood Beleriand, if I'm not mistaken, where her eight-legged brood were a bloody nuissance. I suppose the Elves just ran into them more to have more reason to make their blades spider-proof. In Númenor the spiders wouldn't have existed, and no humans live in Mirkwood, so humans apparently didn't need extra protection against spiders or spiderwebs.

I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the Elvish spoken through Frodo here (and Sam later). Was it the star? Galadriel? Any theories on how/ why this happened, and its effects on Shelob?

Sam also speaks elvish, or something speaks through him, when he uses the phial. Is it a spell, or channeling? It is as if Shelob is having an encounter with an elf instead of a hobbit. Why did Tolkien do this?
I frankly have no idea. I suppose the Elven feel of the Phial and its light must have woken some old memory from tales about the Elves that Sam and Frodo heard when they were young. Bilbo must have told dozens, and especially Sam adored them. Words have power and maybe the Hobbits unconciously knew what protection the words could give against the creatures of darkness? I don't know, I'm just guessing.

Now about the ending sentence of this chapter, which closes out The Two Towers: Can you imagine having to wait a YEAR to read what happens, as they did when it was being published? Compare it to those of us waiting for Year 7 of Harry Potter, I guess!
Hah, you so read my mind here. :p This is the very reason why I don't read books from trilogies and series until they are well and truely finished and published.

I've never understood why Tolkien even wanted Sam to have the ring :confused: (besides an interesting story line and a fight, etc.) What do you guys think? It seemed to me that this was an important point for JRRT, but I can't think why...
I think it was to show some more insights in the influence of the Ring and what temptations it offered. Sam's visions of orcs creating gardens clearly shows how good the Ring is at reading people's personailty and offering them tailor-made temptations. Only in Sam's case is this described fully, if I'm not mistaken. I suppose Tolkien also wanted to show that the Ring tempted everyone, even those who desired no power or realms, but also that its temptation could be resisted when one possessed the right 'heroic' qualities, like compassion, courage and humility.

Isn't it interesting that Orcs seem to like Sauron ("He knows a good orc when he sees one" said Grishnakh proudly) but dislike and fear the nazgul?
Interesting indeed. I suppose it is partially because the nazgul's main characteristic is inspiring fear and they dish it undiscriminately. But recalling his Annatar-period, Sauron could possibly still be charming if he wanted to, even if his appearance wasn't anymore (but then I doubt his looks would have mattered to the orcs...).