Moria naming error?

[Rían]

I was reading thru some Tolkien websites and came across an intriguing question pointing out a possible slip on JRRT's part (it's so tempting to try and find them!) -

If the Elves of Hollin were friendly with Durin's folk in Khazad-dum, and the name Moria (black chasm/pit) wasn't given until many years later, why does it say "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria" on the doors?

[mithrand1r]

I was reading thru some Tolkien websites and came across an intriguing question pointing out a possible slip on JRRT's part (it's so tempting to try and find them!) -

If the Elves of Hollin were friendly with Durin's folk in Khazad-dum, and the name Moria (black chasm/pit) wasn't given until many years later, why does it say "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria" on the doors?

The Elves of Holin were (among other things) practical jokers. Moria was an inside joke which was misunderstood by the Dwarfs and lead to a series of misunderstandings between elfs and dwarfs. ;)

(I really do not have a better reason than that.)

[trolls' bane]

Sounds good enough for me. :D

[Valandil]

Probably just a bit of liberality with the translation... those gathered knew the place as 'Moria', so Gandalf translated it as Moria?? :confused:

(or do the letters on the picture spell out 'Moria' in Elvish... probably do, don't they?) :p

[Rían]

that's what I thought at first, but then remembered the letters on the picture spell Moria in Elvish! (I had translated JRRT's picture myself before and remembered)

[Artanis]

Does it say anywhere that the name Moria was given many years later than the death of Celebrimbor? :confused:

The Elves of Hollin were friends with the Dwarves, but that didn't stop them of making their own names of the mountains, and presumably not of Khazad-Dum either. Though the name was given without love, I don't think it was given with malice. To the Elves, the Dwarrowdelf was a Black Chasm.

[brownjenkins]

i don't have the books on hand... but i thought that in the appendix (durin's folk or tale of years) it mentioned the name "moria" first being used after the balrog chased the dwarves out

[Spock]

Khazad-dum was called the Dwarrowdelf in Westron and Hadhodrond in Sindarin, although the more usual Elvish name, especially after the freeing of the Balrog, was Moria. From the latter name came the Westron Black Pit, Black Chasm, and Mines of Moria......Tolkein's world from A-Z

[Artanis]

i don't have the books on hand... but i thought that in the appendix (durin's folk or tale of years) it mentioned the name "moria" first being used after the balrog chased the dwarves outThat's what I thought too, but I've searched and found nothing but this, where it doesn't say when the Elves started using the name:It is to mark this that I have ventured to use the form dwarves, and so remove them a little, perhaps, from the sillier tales of these latter days. Dwarrows would have been better; but I have used that form only in the name Dwarrowdelf, to represent the name of Moria in the Common Speech: Phurunargian. For that meant 'Dwarf-delving' and yet was already word of antique form. But Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar, though they might at need, in their bitter wars with the Dark Power and his servants, contrive fortresses underground, were not dwellers in such places of choice. They were lovers of the green earth and the lights of heaven; and Moria in their tongue means the Black Chasm. But the Dwarves themselves, and this name at least was never kept secret, called it Khazad-dûm, the Mansion of the Khazad; for such is their own name for their own race, and has been so, since Aulë gave it to them at their making in the deeps of time.

Spock, is your source Robert Foster's book? Does he give any references?

[Rían]

From HoME 11, WOTJ ...

(oh, all RIGHT - History of Middle Earth Vol. 11 - The War of the Jewels) ...

Greatest of all the mansions of the Naugrim was Khazaddum, that was after called in the days of its darkness Moria ...

(that was by JRRT, not CT)

So it seems like it wasn't called Moria until after the Roggie got loose ...

The corresponding passage in the Sil seems to be chpt 10, "Of the Sindar" - Greatest of all the mansions of the Dwarves was Khazaddum, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish tongue, that was afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria...

and again in the Sil, in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" - Eregion was nigh tothe great mansions of the Dwarves that were named Khazad-dum, but by the Elves Hadhodrond, and afterwards Moria.

[Artanis]

Thanks for the reference RÃ*an! :)
The mystery remains yet unsolved then.

[Rían]

You're welcome - book indexes are sure nice!!! As long as I have a faint memory of reading something somewhere, I can usually find it with the help of the indexes :)

It sure seems like there might have been a mistake, don't you think? Esp. since it gives the previous Elven name (Hadhodrond). Seems odd, though - it's hard to believe that with how careful Tolkien was, that this was a mistake. But I've missed it all these years, too!

In the Sil appendix, it says that "hadhod" was a rendering of Khazad into Sindarin sounds, and "rond" is a vaulted or arched roof, or a large hall with a roof like that (cf. Aglarond).

Khazad - the name of the Dwarves in their own language.

[Artanis]

Perhaps Tolkien changed his mind on when the name was used, as he changed his mind in many other things regarding Middle Earth. But I think it is unlikely, he said many times that he felt himself bound by the published material in LotR. So it's probably a slip. Even the professor is human. :D :)

[Spock]

Spock, is your source Robert Foster's book? Does he give any references?

Yes it is but he only references the books in the trilogy.

[Rían]

Perhaps Tolkien changed his mind on when the name was used, as he changed his mind in many other things regarding Middle Earth. But I think it is unlikely, he said many times that he felt himself bound by the published material in LotR. So it's probably a slip. Even the professor is human. :D :)Part of why I like him :)

[Spock]

....what about us half humans? :(

[trolls' bane]

You're welcome - book indexes are sure nice!!! As long as I have a faint memory of reading something somewhere, I can usually find it with the help of the indexes :)
Oh, and I was thinking you all had some program I didn't know about, like those bible programs where you can look up scriptures by typing in a keyword.

[Rían]

....what about us half humans? :(
I like you, too! :)

(hey, I"m half-elven! :D )


That would sure be nice, trolls' bane - I hear rumors of LOTR being in a word document *innocent look* but I don't think HoME books are, or the Sil.

[trolls' bane]

I'd buy it right away! Then I don't have to buy individual books. Just print em out! :D

[Beregond]

how did you get it into a word document? or did you spend along time writing it out?

[Galin]

I think a possible approach might be: Frodo said he could not read the writing, but he remembered what Gandalf said (Moria), and Gandalf said Moria because that was the more familiar name.

This might serve as an explanation, as the name Moria need not be written on the actual door.

[Coffeehouse]

i don't have the books on hand... but i thought that in the appendix (durin's folk or tale of years) it mentioned the name "moria" first being used after the balrog chased the dwarves out

Well in Appendix B, in my Norwegian-translated version, it says for the 2nd Age (I presume the translator has taken no liberties):

ca. 40 'Mange dverger forlater sine gamle byer i Ered Luin og drar til Moria, og det blir et folkerikt sted.'

[Galin]

In Appendix F it was said the name Moria was given without love, noting that the Eldar were not dwellers in underground fortresses by choice.

That still seems to make the 'choice' of Moria a bit odd for the doors I think, though again the name might not have actually appeared on the doors themselves.

[Attalus]

In Appendix F it was said the name Moria was given without love, noting that the Eldar were not dwellers in underground fortresses by choice.

That still seems to make the 'choice' of Moria a bit odd for the doors I think, though again the name might not have actually appeared on the doors themselves.That would be my guess, as the letters were written by Celebrimbror, though carved by Narvi. The Dwarves may not, at that time, have regarded "The Black Pit" as an insult. Certainly "Moria, Moria, wonder of the Western world. Too deep we delved there and wakened the nameless fear," doesn't sound anything but elegiac. Gimli regards calling The Glittering Caves of Aglarond as being demeaned by just being dismissed as "Caves," but nowhere does he seem resentful of the name Moria.

[Coffeehouse]

I can easily see Narvi inscribing the name Moria on the door (and Gandalf did describe what he saw, first citing the name and then some undertext, which I can't remember what said..).

It is kind of in the nature of the Elves to regard a place like Moria as a Black Pit, and yeah, I agree that at the time this may not have been seen as an insult. After all, they (the Dwarves) probably were filled with joy that such a magical and beautifully inscripted door could grace the Western side, so if the Elves felt that Moria was a fitting name, why not?:rolleyes:

[Jon S.]

Y'all are making a common mistake. You're translating Moria using one of the more common Middle Earth languages. In fact, certain Elves spoke Hebrew where Moria means, "My teacher is Illuvatar [God]."

[Noble Elf Lord]

Y'all are making a common mistake. You're translating Moria using one of the more common Middle Earth languages. In fact, certain Elves spoke Hebrew where Moria means, "My teacher is Illuvatar [God]." :confused:

[Galin]

I can easily see Narvi inscribing the name Moria on the door (and Gandalf did describe what he saw, first citing the name and then some undertext, which I can't remember what said..).

But he might have only said Moria (instead of Hadhodrond), because Moria was well known to those he was speaking to.

[Coffeehouse]

True.. perhaps.. :p

Frodo is the author of the latter part of the Red Book of Westmarch, and while it's possible that he 1) translated what Gandalf really said and wrote Moria instead for the readers, or 2) wrote down what Gandalf actually said, but which Gandalf 'translated' as he read the door's inscription, it also leaves open the possibility of 3) that Gandalf read out what was actually on the door.

In any case, the drawing in the Fellowship of the Ring does read 'Moria' does it not?

[Galin]

(...) In any case, the drawing in the Fellowship of the Ring does read 'Moria' does it not?

Yes it does, but it also reads 'Durin' and 'Narvi' -- these are not only not Sindarin, but moreover they would arguably be translations in any case, thus names that should not appear in writing on the actual doors. When referring to Balin's tomb Tolkien noted...

'The actual representation of the inscription has however landed in some absurdities (...) but the names Balin and Fundin are in such a context absurd.' But Tolkien noted this was basically: 'effective in its place: giving an idea of the style of the runes when incised with more care for a solemn purpose, and providing a glimpse of a strange tongue' JRRT, Of Dwarves And men

I think the illustration of the doors is also effective in its place, showing the Elvish script and design, but it need not be a representation of the actual doors in every detail, even with respect to what is written in the illustration.

[Jon S.]

:confused:
Here you go: "sense of humor." :)

[Varnafindë]

The illustration in the book could not be a photo of the door, as photography had not been invented. It may be Frodo's drawing, and as there was not time for him to do a sketch in such detail as to copy every sign written on the door, he must have made the drawing from memory after he came back.

He would then just have written the text as he "knew" it to be - not realising that he was drawing Gandalf's translation rather than the actual words on the door.

[Earniel]

That is a very clever point, Varna, I never thought about it. It certainly makes sense.

[Coffeehouse]

The illustration in the book could not be a photo of the door, as photography had not been invented. It may be Frodo's drawing, and as there was not time for him to do a sketch in such detail as to copy every sign written on the door, he must have made the drawing from memory after he came back.

He would then just have written the text as he "knew" it to be - not realising that he was drawing Gandalf's translation rather than the actual words on the door.

Unless Frodo has photographic memory... which would make the drawing in the book a true depiction:)

[Willow Oran]

He could also have copied the image from an older document in Imladris.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Here you go: "sense of humor." :)

'Righty. :D

What can I say... Varna is damn smart. :)

And Willow Oran, nice to see you again! :D Moothug!

[Earniel]

He could also have copied the image from an older document in Imladris.
Interesting suggestion too. The original population of Imladris came straight out of Eregion. If there are any Elves able to reproduce the carvings on the door, then it would be these Elves. Frodo did spend some time in Rivendell before going back to the Shire, he would have had a good opportunity right there.

[Varnafindë]

I expect that those Elves also would be drawing the picture from memory, but they at least would remember exactly what was the wording on the doors.

In which case, we're back to square one :eek:

But thank you for your compliments on my smartness :D

[Galin]

And I think a modern translator is involved, explaining 'Durin' and 'Narvi' in the illustration. No Elves, nor Frodo, should have rendered these translations on anything from the general time period.

An ancient document that had 'Samwise' written on it, for example, should really have Banazîr, and it is the modern translator who has rendered Samwise. Unless JRRT is prepared to alter the notion concerning these names, but he does not seem to with respect to 'Balin' and 'Fundin' anyway.

[Attalus]

I don't think that we should regard Frodo as the narrator of any of the LotR, as the prologue obviously casts an omniscent narrator who has studied the Red Book thoroughly in order to tell its story to modern men. That narrator obviously had access to many other documents, viz. the Silmarillion.

[Varnafindë]

I don't think that we should regard Frodo as the narrator of any of the LotR, as the prologue obviously casts an omniscent narrator who has studied the Red Book thoroughly in order to tell its story to modern men. That narrator obviously had access to many other documents, viz. the Silmarillion.

So that Frodo was only the narrator of large parts of the Red Book, and LotR is more of a derivative work?

[Coffeehouse]

The narrator of LOTR is...... tada! Tolkien.

[Varnafindë]

The narrator of LOTR is...... tada! Tolkien.

No, he's the translator into English. ;)

[Willow Oran]

Except for the pov shifts where he breaks that illusion, presumably on purpose.:p

We're hardly the first fans to discuss this and one story internal theory I've come across is that the name Moria was in such persistent usage among the elves of Eregion (especially those of the Sindar) that the name stuck despite dwarvish preferences and was the only one that would make the enchantment on the gates work.
Purely speculative, of course, but much more amusing.;)

[Jon S.]

I strongly agree with the POV that the Hobbits are writing the history in LOTR with Tolkien doing the translating. It's why, in the movie section, I'm usually more open to the personality changes than most. The Hobbits worshipped, for example, Aragorn and Faramir. They had every incentive, in the Red Book, to present them as "larger than life." Well, so be it.

It is an interesting angle from which to consider the Moria name issue, though.

[Coffeehouse]

No, he's the translator into English. ;)

Can you provide evidence for this?:)

[Varnafindë]

Can you provide evidence for this?:)

Only textual evidence, if you are prepared to take Tolkien's own word for it ;)

In presenting the matter of the Red Book, as a history for people of today to read, the whole of the linguistic setting has been translated as far as possible into terms of our own times. Only the languages alien to the Common Speech have been left in their original form; but these appear mainly in the names of persons and places.

The Common Speech, as the language of the Hobbits and their narratives, has inevitably been turned into modern English.

From Translations, the last part of the Appendices

He then goes on to tell in the first person some considerations he has made in his translations.

As I said, we've only got his word for it :D

[Coffeehouse]

His word is holy:p so that's good enough for me.

[Galin]

Also The Lord of the Rings title page reads (written in runes): 'The Lord of the Rings translated from the Red Book'.

And the Tengwar on the bottom reads: 'of Westmarch by Jhon Ronald Reuel Tolkien. Herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and the Return of the King as seen by the hobbits.'

[Coffeehouse]

Yeah, but f.ex. when the Uruk Hai and the Orcs speak when they've captured Merry and Pippin the two hobbits don't understand the language do they (Or did these foul creatures speak (unlikely) in Westron? ), and that would suggest that definitely the narrator possesses more info than the hobbits do.. I'm sure there are numerous examples of this in the books.

*Sees that Galin is the only other Mooter online and waits eagerly for her (Guesses her..)/his solitary answer in the midst of Entmoot-loneliness:D*

[Galin]

Well, as seen by the Hobbits is true enough in any case, generally speaking.

Regarding the detail you raised on the language anyway, to Pippin's surpise he found that much of the Orc-talk was intelligible, as the Orcs resorted to 'ordinary language' to better communicate with each other it seems. And at one point an Orc says something in his abominable tongue, and then spoke to Pippin in the Common Speech, for example.

Edit: he said ;)

[Coffeehouse]

Yeah I had a sneaking feeling that they spoke intelligbly to the hobbits..

[Attalus]

From another Forum:

:
Originally Posted by Coconut Ent

The story is told purely from a single point of view in FOTR: Frodo's (although there was a brief bit from Fatty Bolger's POV). So while Frodo is still zonked out after surgery, we don't know what Aragorn has been up to, or how Arwen was finalizing the design of the Standard. Aragorn knew of the Standard, recognizing it when Halbarad brought it to Rohan, so Arwen and he must have discussed it in Rivendell at some point. But we don't get to see it because Frodo didn't.

After the Fellowship is split, we get the narratives from different POV of various members. The story in FOTR and TTT is worm's eye view from the members, with no info-dump of the larger canvas, not even during the battles at Helm's Deep. We don't get anything of the Battle of the Fords of Isen at all because none of the Fellowship was there. (It didn't even make it into the Appendix!)

Only in ROTK during the great battles (Siege of Gondor, Pelennor, Dagorlad) do we get a "helicopter view" of what was happening overall.

This is the exact reason I get so irritated when people insist that the LotR's narrator is Frodo.

[Alcuin]

Most of the story is told from the point of view of the various hobbits: Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, and Fatty Bolger. The adventures of the Three Hunters from the Emyn Muil to the entrance to the Paths of the Dead is told as if from Gimli’s perspective, or at least as if from his recollection. Only once, I think, are we given a view into Aragorn’s thinking, when he’s chasing after Sam when Frodo disappeared at Parth Galen; but never into the mind of any other character that I can recall.

Everything else, as far as I can recall, is told as if from the point of view of one of the (hobbit) observers: the expressions on Boromir’s face at the Council of Elrond, for instance; the actions of Legolas; and so forth.

The end product reads as if it were constructed by the hobbits from their writings, notes, and recollections, with additional information gained from Gimli, along with emendations and explanations from the Gondorian scribes who copied the books for them.