LoTR Discussion project; Book IV Chapters 3 and 4

[BeardofPants]

Chapter III: The Black Gate is Closed

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/BeardofPants/Mordor.jpg
Mordor, and adjacent lands, courtesy of Karen Fondstad's, "The Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth".

The chapter opens with their trek to Mordor finally over, as the black of night turned slowly into day. The desert and the marshes had been left behind. To the west of Mordor rose Ephel Duath, and to the north lay Ered Lithui, both barren, and gloomy. The two swung north towards each other, ending in the embrace of Cirith Gorgor - the haunted pass, and entrance into Mordor. High cliffs guarded this entrance, along with the Teeth of Mordor, two towers built in the distant past by the Men of Gondor, after the fall of Sauron, "... they were built by the Men of Gondor in their pride and power, after the overthrow of Sauron and his flight, lest he should seek to return to his old realm. But the strength of Gondor failed, and men slept, and for long years the towers stood empty. Then Sauron returned. Now the watch-towers, which had fallen into decay, were repaired, and filled with arms, and garrisoned with ceaseless vigilance. ... each window was full of sleepless eyes." The entrance of the pass was barred with a rampart of stone, within which was a single gate of iron, "... and upon its battlement sentinels paced unceasingly." With day-break came the fallow sun, and a cry of trumpets, sounding from the distant reaches of Mordor, signaling the changing of the guard from night to day.

An interesting on-going theme in Lord of the Rings is that Sauron very seldom seems to build, or create new buildings, but rather, seems to corrupt and defile buildings of his enemies. Do you think this is related to what Tolkien said about the Enemy not being able to create life, only pervert?

A conversation followed with Sam longing for the comforts of home, and Frodo determined to enter into Mordor through this pass. Gone was the cowering and fear; Frodo now stood resolute and firm in his decision. However, Gollum proposed another way into Mordor, a secret way. Darker, and more difficult to find, and Sam's hope to ride the party of Gollum would come to no avail... at least, not yet. Frodo accepted Gollum's help, but reminded him that he was in danger... not from the danger that they all shared, but the danger made from swearing on Precious - that already the Ring was twisting him. Interestingly, in a seemingly foreshadowing manner, Frodo talked about how if in the end, Gollum decided to betray his promise to the Ring, Frodo could put on the ring and:

...command you... even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command.

Do you think this was foreshadowing of Smeagol's Doom? Was his Death tied to his promises to the Ring in such a literal fashion?

This speech surprised both Sam and Smeagol - it would appear that both had assumed that Frodo's kindness bestowed a certain measure of blindness, and for a while after that, the only words to come out of Gollum's mouth was, "nice master". However, out of his hysterical ramblings, Frodo was able to ascertain that there was a more hidden way into Mordor, if a traveller was to follow the road south, that followed the western wall of Mordor. Eventually, the traveller would come to a junction, with the southern route leading ever onwards to the South, and the western road leading to Osgiliath. Gollum went on to tell of the left path that led to the old fortress, and of the stories that he used to hear when he was a hobbit child, sitting by the banks of the Great River, in the willow-lands.

The Great River is mentioned, otherwise known as the Anduin River. What land do you think he is referring to by "willow-lands"? Is it safe to assume from this description that Gollum comes from Stoor stock? (Since the Stoors were the last to cross the Misty Mountains into Eriador).

Gollum then talked about the tales that came out of the South:
...about the tall Men with the shining eyes, and their houses like hills of stone, and the silver crown of their King and his White Tree : wonderful tales. They built very tall towers, and one they raised was silver-white, and in it there was a stone like the Moon, and round it were great white walls. O yes, there were many tales about the Tower of the Moon.

"... a stone like the Moon." Presumably the ithil-stone, one of the Palantiri. This was likely captured by Sauron in the Third Age by his Nazgul lieutenants, and used to capture the minds of Denethor and Saruman. Do you think this stone survived the fall of Barad-dur? Does the fall of the ithil tower directly mirror that of the fall of Isildur, the builder of the Tower?

Gollum details how the tall tower has been conquered long ago by the Enemy, and is, "not nice now, not beautiful", a terrible place - beyond the tower lies the old road which goes ever on upwards until it reaches the dark pass at the top, then it crawls down into Gorgoroth. He also tells the Hobbits about the Silent Watchers : that the the road into Mordor is watched. However, the power of Sauron is not so great that He can constantly watch all routes into Mordor, and Gollum is careful to explain that for the present, Sauron's Eye is turned to the Greater Danger in the North, that their only hope is to trust that Sauron is not being as vigilant in the South, where He perceives the conquered realms as more impervious to enemy advance. Gollum also tells of: ... a little path leading up into the mountains; and then a stair, a narrow, stair, O yes, very long and narrow. And then more stairs. And then... a tunnel, a dark tunnel; and at last a little cleft, and a path high above the main pass.

Frodo is, however, inordinately dubious, and ponders that perhaps Gollum didn't so much escape from Mordor using this route, but was allowed to escape. It is also interesting that when Sam asks Gollum if the way is guarded, he fancies that he sees a green gleam in Gollum's eye, and whilst Gollum muttered under his breath, he did not reply to Sam's question directly.

Was it Gollum's promise to the Ring that prevented him from answering this question directly, or something else? It is interesting to note that even when Frodo manages to draw him out about the way being guarded, there is always something that apparently stops Gollum from being truthful - later on in this passage, he is presumably in a sulk because of being accused of being a liar, and manages to further dodge any questions of the pass being guarded.

cont...

[BeardofPants]

Gollum, however, is adamant that he escaped, using the very rare pronoun of "I" : "I did escape, all by my poor self.", by which Frodo noted that he tended to use when he was being sincere or truthful. However, whilst Frodo thought that Gollum might have been truthful about his 'escape' from Mordor, he did not write-off the cunning of the Enemy, allowing that the Enemy might have had a hand in Gollum's departure from Mordor - "And in any case Gollum was plainly keeping a good deal back." And he would not tell them the name of the pass. The Narrator then sneaks into the story and names the pass Cirith Ungol, which translates to 'the Pass of the Spider' (from Ungoliant), renamed during the Third Age from Cirith Duath, the Pass of Shadow. And unfortunately, neither Aragorn nor Gandalf were on hand to tell them the name of the pass, and warn Frodo and Sam of its significance.

How do you think the story would have diverge if perhaps Aragorn or Gandalf had been there to warn Frodo of Gollum's deception? Or if either Frodo or Sam had been better students of Mordor's Geography?

Whilst Frodo was wrangling with Gollum over whether the pass was guarded, Gandalf stood amidst the Ruin of Isengard, and his thoughts went towards Sam and Frodo, laden with hope and pity. And again, Frodo appeared to pick up on Gandalf's thoughts, as on Amon Hen - even though as far as Frodo knew, Gandalf was dead, from his fall in the Misty Mountains - sitting on the ground for a very long time, trying to recall all the words of counsel that Gandalf had ever given to him. Frodo tries to remember if Gandalf had ever ventured into Mordor, and wonders: ...here he was a little halfling from the Shire, a simple hobbit of the quiet countryside, expected to find a way where the great ones could not go, or dared not go.

The story mentions that, "...How they should enter it at the last Gandalf had not said. Perhaps he could not say." Do you think that Gandalf COULD have counseled them on how to enter Mordor?

As the day drew on, a deep silence drew upon the little grey hollow where they lay, so near to the borders of Mordor. This was not an easy choice for Frodo, to be made in a matter of seconds. The day dragged onwards, and the Sky was empty for a long while; and then Sam's sharp eyes saw great black shapes wheeling about in the sky - Black Riders were on the move again, and the skies were being patrolled. The feeling of dread passed, but the silence was broken, and the peril had clearly returned. And then the silence was further broken by singing and hoarse shouting, the sounds moving ever closer to their little dell. Voices, and the metallic ring of weapons could be heard, and it appeared the flight would be impossible. Gollum moved out to the lip of the hollow to scout, and reported back that Men were marching into Mordor: ...Dark faces. We have not seen Men like these before, no, Smeagol has not. They are fierce. They have black eyes, and long black hair, and gold rings in their ears; yes, lots of beautiful gold. And some have red paint on their spears; and they have round shields, yellow and black with big spikes. Not nice; very cruel wicked Men they look. Almost as bad as Orcs and much bigger. Smeagol thinks they have come out of the South beyond the Great River's end : they came up that road.

It HAD to be brought up, I'm sorry... Do you think that there is any basis for Tolkien being a racist? Or that his thoughts were swayed by the typical Modernist mind-sets of the time?

When Gollum had finished reporting his findings to the Hobbits, Sam asked if Gollum had seen any oliphaunts, reciting the rhyme that he had learned back in the Shire:

Grey as a mouse,
Big as a house,
Nose like snake,
I make the earth shake,
As I tramp through the grass;
Trees crack as I pass.
With horns in my mouth
I walk in the South,
Flapping big ears.
Beyond count of years
I stump round and round,
Never lie on the ground,
Not even to die.
Oliphaunt am I,
Biggest of all,
Huge, old ad tall.
If ever you'd met me
You wouldn't forget me.
If you never do,
You won't think I'm true;
But old Oliphaunt am I,
And I never lie.

Sam's rendition of his poetry reading had made Frodo laugh even amidst all of the peril, and the laughter had finally pushed him to make a choice. For good or evil, the third path would be their route into Mordor.

Do you think that Frodo had any other choice?

[BeardofPants]

Chapter IV: Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

The last few hours of daylight were spent resting. It had taken most of the day for Frodo to reach a decision about their next part of the journey. A quick meal was swallowed down, with Gollum only accepting water. Gollum talked about the good water that ran down in streams to the Great River, and about how hungry he was for food.

Is Gollum talking about Henneth Annûn?

They finally set out at Dusk, carefully creeping over the western-most rim of the dell. The moon was now three nights from full, but it did not climb up over the towering mountains until nearly midnight, so the early night was very dark. They perceived that only a single red light burned from the Towers of the Teeth, but the red eye seemed to follow them as they fled. The party stayed well off the road, keeping it to their left, but well in sight. They only rested briefly once as the night faded, but the eye didn't leave them until they turned past the dark northern shoulder of the lower mountains, and were heading southwards. It was here that they made their second rest, with hearts strangely lightened, now that the eye had dwindled, but it was not a long rest; they were not going fast enough for Gollum. They walked on until dawn had arisen in the sky : they had walked almost eight leagues and could go no further, even if they dared.

Eight leagues is equal to 24.0000482 miles (or 38.6243336 kilometres). Do you think it is feasible to cover this distance in approximately 12 hours (from Dusk to Dawn)? Given their condition? (Assuming that the eight leagues is measured from the dell to their third and final stop for the night - it is mentioned that Gollum estimated that it was thirty leagues to the cross-road, and that he hoped to make the journey in four journeys.)

As the light grew, the party noticed the gradual landscape change. To their left, the Mountains still rose ominously, but on their right the land was already looking less barren. The southward road now bore away from the Mountains, and beyond, the slopes bore Trees. Heath, shrubs, and knots of pine-trees were scattered, and the air was fragrant and fresh, reminding the Hobbits of the uplands of Northfarthing far away to the West. They passed the day laying deep in the heather, with Frodo slipping in and out of a peaceful sleep. Sam, however, was too hungry to sleep, and he began to long for something, "hot out of the pot."

They started out again as soon as the dusk - their second night out from the Gate of Mordor - had settled. After a little while, Gollum led them onto the Southern Road, and the journey passed more quickly, albeit more dangerously. The night was spent carefully listening for walkers, and horses either coming from behind, or ahead, but the night passed, and there was no sound to be heard of walker or rider. The road had been made a long time ago, and whilst the road in close proximity to the Morannon was newly repaired, to the south, the wild was slowly encroaching upon it. Soon all signs of the stonework of the Men of Gondor disappeared, with moss growing over the paving stones, and only a few broken pillars peering out of the bushes. The road slowly turned into a little-used country cart-road, arrowing south.

In this way they finally passed into the northern-most region of Ithilien, a country of climbing woods and streams. The air became more fragrant as they marched south, and from Gollum's muttering, Frodo and Sam discerned that he was unhappy with the change in climate. The night was clear, and the moon was round (interesting, when you consider that the moon from the day before was three-days from full-moon). As day-break came upon them, they halted once again. They had passed through a long stretch of road that cleaved through a stony ridge, and now clambered up on the western bank of ridge, to look abroad. The mountains were now a lot further away to the east, and to the west, were small woods of resinous trees, fir and cedar and cypress, and of course, others that were not known in the Shire. There were wide glades, and sweet-smelling herbs and shrubs. It was Spring, and it was the first time since they'd come out of Rivendell, that the Hobbits had felt the change of climate. This was a sheltered region - the East was sheltered by the Ephel Duath, and the North was sheltered by the Emyn Muil - so Ithilien was open to the southern airs, and the moist sea winds from the south. Flowers abounded, and herbs that were beyond even Sam's ken.

The travellers left the road, and went downhill to the west. Sweet odours rose about them, which the hobbits inhaled, and enjoyed, whilst Gollum retched and coughed.

Why do you suppose Gollum finds the smells of Ithilien to be so distressing?

Following a stream, they eventually found themselves near a small clear lake in a shallow dell - the broken remains of an ancient stone basin. Water lilies floated upon the surface of the lake. It was here that the Hobbits refreshed themselves, and washed away their cares. However, despite the seeming lovely respite, they sought a hiding place in a deep brown bed of last year's fern; this was a land that was now the territory of the Dark Lord, and everywhere the hobbits looked, they could see scars wrought on the land, both old and new. Piles of charred bones, felled trees marked with the fell Runes of Sauron, pits of refuse and waste.

What modern locale do you think Ithilien is comparable to? (water lilies on the lake, "English" trees, fern, hot southern winds.)

The thought of food had been dominating Sam's thoughts, and now that the despair of the Black Gate was behind them, Sam wanted to pay some thought to their food supply for the rest of their journey. By his own reckoning, he estimated that six days or more had passed since he'd last calculated that there were only perhaps another three weeks supply of lembas left. Sam's ever-present optimism pondered that, "... we might be wanting to get back. We might!", and so he enlisted the help of Gollum to secure food for "a hungry hobbit". Whilst Gollum hunted, and Frodo napped, Sam watched his master, noting that: ...at times a light seemed to be shining faintly within; but now the light was even clearer and stronger. Frodo's face was peaceful, the marks of fear and care had left it; but it looked old, old and beautiful, as if the chiselling of the shaping years was now revealed in many fine lines that had before been hidden, though the identity of the face was not changed.
Sam again declares his love for his Master, and even Gollum appears to be affected by the light that shone within Frodo, "... Gollum returned quietly and peered over Sam's shoulder. Looking at Frodo, he shut his eyes and crawled away without a sound."

The notion of Platonic Love has been brought up before - do you think that a relationship such as that of Sam's and Frodo's is replicated in 'Modern Life', or is it purely a work of fiction from a bygone era? Are there other works of fiction that display comparable relationships? Do you think they do it as well as Tolkien in LOTR? How about other Tolkien works?
Do you think that Gollum was going to lead the Hobbits into Shelob's Lair at this stage?

cont...

[BeardofPants]

Sam, the ever hopeful optimist, still had all his cooking gear in his pack, and now set about to cook the rabbits that Gollum had returned with. Again, he sent Gollum on another task to fetch water to cook them in, not trusting to leave Frodo alone. He gathered materials to set up a fire, scouting for dried fern, and twigs, and broken wood. However, once Gollum saw what Sam was up to, he was both frightened and angry, "Fire, fire! It's dangerous, yes it is. It burns, it kills. And it will bring enemies, yes it will." Sam told Gollum that he did not think that this would be a concern, since he had been careful to not make a smokey fire, and attempted to send Gollum out for a third time to find herbs. But Gollum was not pleased by this stage, and stubbornly resisted all of Sam's threats to bath his head in boiling water: ...He's frightened, and he's very tired, and this hobbit's not nice, not nice at all. Smeagol won't grub for roots and carrotses and -taters. What's taters, precious, eh, what's taters?

In the end, Sam had to find the herbs himself, luckily not having to scour too far from his Master, who was still sleeping. Sam tended the stew while the daylight grew, and the dew evaporated off the trees. After stewing the rabbits for an hour or so (Sam estimated it to be around eight-thirty in the morning by the shire clocks), and tasting the broth, he deemed it ready. He lifted the pans, and wakened his Master from his peaceful sleep.

Are the "shire clocks" out of place for the time-period?

Frodo and Sam ate the stew directly from the pots, and attempted to share it with Gollum, but he was long gone. After the meal, Sam washed the dishes in the stream nearby, and noticed with alarm that he had neglected to put the fire out, which was now smoking, and clearly visible. Sam hared back to camp and stamped out the fire; he also heard suspicious sounding bird calls, and hurried back to Frodo, sharing his alarm with his Master. There was no longer any doubt of there being other people present, as voices were now heard, speaking low and furtively. Seemingly at once, four men appeared out of the brushes from different directions, and both Frodo and Sam were forced to confront them since flight no longer seemed possible. They both pulled their swords, and waited. The men were dressed in green and brown, as if to blend in with the forests of Ithilien, and they were armed with spears, bows, and swords. The men reminded Frodo of Boromir, since they had similar speech, and bearing.

If Frodo and Sam were astonished at their captors, their captors were equally astonished, and dubious about what exactly the Hobbits were - speculating, and arguing that they might have been orcs or elves. Sam tired of this, and interjected: ... Meaning we're not [elves], I take you. Thank you kindly. And when you've finished discussing us, perhaps you'll say who you are, and why you can't let two tired travellers rest.
The tall green man introduced himself as Faramir, Captain of Gondor, requesting that they state their errand in the lands of Ithilien, and where the third "skulking" member of their party had gone. Frodo made their introductions, and explained that they were Hobbits from the far north and west; he detailed that they had come out of Rivendell with seven companions, including Boromir. Faramir, already suspicious, sought explanations as to their allegiance with Boromir. Frodo asked Faramir if the riddling words that Boromir brought to Rivendell were known to him:

Seek for the Sword that was Broken
In Imladris it dwells.

and briefly explained that the sword referred to was the one bore by Aragorn, one of the seven companions, and that they, the Hobbits, were the Halflings the riddle spoke about. Faramir was intrigued, and wanted to know more, however, business bore him away, so he left two men to guard the hobbits, and bade them farewell. The two men that guarded them were Dunedain of the South, men from the line of the Lords of Westernesse. They introduced themselves as Mablung and Damrod, soldiers of Gondor, and Rangers of Ithilien. They explained that they were about ten leagues to the east-shore of the Anduin and that they did not normally venture so far out, but they were on an errand to engage with the Men of Harad, "Curse them!" The road may pass, but they shall not! Not while Faramir is Captain. He leads now in all perilous ventures. But his life is charmed, or fate spares him for some other end.

To what extent do you think that Fate is sparing Faramir (foreshadowing of some sort)?

Their talk died down, and Sam espied many Men stealing up the slopes, always keeping to the shade of the grove. As he and Frodo dozed off, Sam wondered where Gollum was. He was startled out of sleep by the sound of horns blowing. It was now high noon, and their guards stood tense and alert. More horns were sounded, and the unmistakable sound of fighting broke near their camping place. The noise came closer and closer, and Sam, eager to see what was going on, went to join the guards. He saw the swarthier men in red running down the slope, with the men in green after them. One man came crashing through the trees nearly on top of them, felled by a green arrow. Sam wondered: ... what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace...

Not really a question, but it is interesting to note that Tolkien's world was not all shades of Black and White, Good and Bad, etc. I think this is also a really good example of Sam's good ol' Hobbit sense, that he can wonder about this kind of stuff. It's for reasons like this, that I REALLY like Sam's character.

All these thoughts were driven from Sam's mind by a new wonder: - Big as a house, much bigger than a house, it looked to him, a grey-clad moving hill.
The Mumak, Tolkien noted, were a beast of "vast bulk", the like of which, "does not walk now in Middle-earth; his kin that live still in latter days are but memories of his girth and majesty." The Oliphaunt came crashing past them, mere breadths away: ... blundering in blind wrath through pool and thicket. Arrows skipped and snapped harmlessly about the triple hide of his flanks. Men of both sides fled before him, but many he overtook and crushed to the ground. Soon he was lost to view, still trumpeting and stamping far away. What became of him Sam never heard : whether he escaped to roam the wild for a time, until he perished far from his home or was trapped in some deep pit; or whether he ranged on until he plunged in the Great River and was swallowed up.

"An Oliphaunt it was! So there are Oliphaunts, and I have seen one. What a life! But no one at home will ever believe me. Well, if that's over, I'll have a bit of sleep." ~ What do you suppose happened to the Oliphaunt?

The chapter closes with Mablung telling Sam that when the Captain returns, they will depart swiftly, as the enemy will be pursuing them after that day's feat. Sam responded that they could go quietly if they must, but: ...No need to disturb my sleep. I was walking all night.

[The Gaffer]

Very nice job, m'lady. You set a high standard.

As per, only time for a quickie the noo:


Do you think this was foreshadowing of Smeagol's Doom? Was his Death tied to his promises to the Ring in such a literal fashion?

In short, yes. It is acted out in more detail on Mount Doom.

These chapters see a transition in Frodo, which you've picked up on. He accepts his fate and takes charge of the Quest.

We have previously seen his "openness" to some sort of prophesy (e.g. the dream in Bombadil's house). It is as if he understands them better now and has risen to the responsibility of destroying the Ring.

[BeardofPants]

Thanks Gaffar, hope to see some more people jump in soon, and not be put off by the length!

Yes, Frodo seems to be less reliant on the others of the party, and has picked up the leadership role... although Sam is starting to take a great deal of the burden already.

[Gordis]

I am much impressed by your summary, Beard of Pants! Probably it is the best summary in the whole project. Congratulations!

And thank you for including the maps.

An interesting on-going theme in Lord of the Rings is that Sauron very seldom seems to build, or create new buildings, but rather, seems to corrupt and defile buildings of his enemies. Do you think this is related to what Tolkien said about the Enemy not being able to create life, only pervert?

I don’t think so. Morgoth built Tangorodrim and Angband. Sauron built Barad Dur in the Second age. Sure, Sauron used Dol Guldur built by elves, but at the time he came there (1100?) he had no physical shape and very few (if any) followers. Later he rebuilt Barad Dur (his own creation initially) and built the Morannon Gate between the old towers of the Teeth. Yes, he used the Teeth Towers, Cirith Ungol fortress, Minas Ithil and Durthang. But they were already there, right at the best strategic spots. Why should he demolish them and build new fortresses?

Do you think this was foreshadowing of Smeagol's Doom? Was his Death tied to his promises to the Ring in such a literal fashion?

Yes, I think so. It has been discussed in 2 threads before.

The Great River is mentioned, otherwise known as the Anduin River. What land do you think he is referring to by "willow-lands"? Is it safe to assume from this description that Gollum comes from Stoor stock? (Since the Stoors were the last to cross the Misty Mountains into Eriador).

Yes, he was from Stoors and lived by the Gladden fields, on the West bank of Anduin. It is in UT, the “Hunt for the Ring�.

"... a stone like the Moon." Presumably the ithil-stone, one of the Palantiri. This was likely captured by Sauron in the Third Age by his Nazgul lieutenants, and used to capture the minds of Denethor and Saruman. Do you think this stone survived the fall of Barad-dur?

It was captured in TA 2002 by nazgul, and I believe it was kept in Minas Morgul for a thousand years. Then, when in 2951 Sauron returned to Mordor and declared himself openly, he presumably took the Stone to Barad Dur. Since then, all the troubles with the other stones begun. Saruman and Denethor became corrupted. I don’t think the stone survived the fall of Barad-Dur. Or else, it became buried under the debris.

Does the fall of the ithil tower directly mirror that of the fall of Isildur, the builder of the Tower?
I think the parallel is not very clear. Minas Ithil was taken twice. First in the Second Age, it was the first move of Sauron against the young Gondor. The war of Last Alliance followed and presumably (though it is mentioned nowhere) Minas Ithil was recaptured and returned to Gondor. Them, in the Third age (2002) Minas Ithil was taken by the nazgul after two-years siege. It seems nobody and nothing escaped from the city this time, as even the Palantir was taken.
So the first capture of M. Ithil happened before Isildur took the Ring, the second one happened 2000 years later. To late, IMHO, for a parallel.

It is interesting to note that even when Frodo manages to draw him out about the way being guarded, there is always something that apparently stops Gollum from being truthful - later on in this passage, he is presumably in a sulk because of being accused of being a liar, and manages to further dodge any questions of the pass being guarded.

Well, Gollum was not going to tell Frodo about Shelob, was he? He didn’t even want to tell him the name of the pass as anyone knowing Elvish would ponder on the meaning of “Ungol�

How do you think the story would have diverge if perhaps Aragorn or Gandalf had been there to warn Frodo of Gollum's deception? Or if either Frodo or Sam had been better students of Mordor's Geography?

Nothing would have changed, IMO. After all, Faramir DID tell Frodo the name of the pass later on, and it didn’t stop him.

The story mentions that, "...How they should enter it at the last Gandalf had not said. Perhaps he could not say." Do you think that Gandalf COULD have counseled them on how to enter Mordor?

Gandalf’s ORIGINAL plan is a very interesting question. I am afraid he didn’t know himself how to enter. I suppose he counted on Gollum all along for that.

It HAD to be brought up, I'm sorry... Do you think that there is any basis for Tolkien being a racist? Or that his thoughts were swayed by the typical Modernist mind-sets of the time?

Describing men from the south as swarthy and black-haired in not racism. It is stating the biological fact. And “Not nice; very cruel wicked Men they look.� is just a way a little hobbit sees enemy soldiers. Later Tolkien describes Easterling and Southron valour when facing the defeat at Pelennor.

Do you think that Frodo had any other choice?
No, he didn’t.

Is Gollum talking about Henneth Annûn?
No, there were a lot of streams in Ithilien, I believe

38,6 km in 12 hours? Possible I think, but hard.

Why do you suppose Gollum finds the smells of Ithilien to be so distressing?

The poor guy has nearly become a wraith…his senses changed. Perhaps he started to appreciate the smell of Morgul Vale flowers already… ;)

Do you think that Gollum was going to lead the Hobbits into Shelob's Lair at this stage?
Yes, ever since he spoke of the “other way�

To what extent do you think that Fate is sparing Faramir (foreshadowing of some sort)?
I think it is just soldier’s common belief. He was lucky so far, that’s all.

[Fat middle]

A superb job BoP! :)

I'm answering now just to your first suggested question. I hope to have more time tomorrow.
An interesting on-going theme in Lord of the Rings is that Sauron very seldom seems to build, or create new buildings, but rather, seems to corrupt and defile buildings of his enemies. Do you think this is related to what Tolkien said about the Enemy not being able to create life, only pervert?
I think that Sauron may have learned something from Morgoth's downfall. Morgoth put a lot of his powers into his buildings as they frequently required changing the earth surface. Those enormeous works were finally undermining his powers so he could be defeated in the end.

Perhaps Sauron, decided to concentrate more in the domination of persons (orcs, men...) and less in the alteration of nature and its materials in order to preserve his powers.

The Ring itself seems to have a very strong effect on peoples' minds, but we do not know much about its power to help in building: altering the features of different materials, etc.

[CrazySquirrel]

Great summary. BP! I wish I had time now...
The Ring itself seems to have a very strong effect on peoples' minds, but we do not know much about its power to help in building: altering the features of different materials, etc.
Sau used the Ring to make foundations of Barad Dur, Last Alliance was unable to demolish them. And because of ring-made foundations the tower was destroyed with the Ring.
So the Ring has virtue for building fortresses.

[The Gaffer]

How do you think the story would have diverge if perhaps Aragorn or Gandalf had been there to warn Frodo of Gollum's deception? Or if either Frodo or Sam had been better students of Mordor's Geography?

Nothing would have changed, IMO. After all, Faramir DID tell Frodo the name of the pass later on, and it didn’t stop him.

The story mentions that, "...How they should enter it at the last Gandalf had not said. Perhaps he could not say." Do you think that Gandalf COULD have counseled them on how to enter Mordor?

Gandalf’s ORIGINAL plan is a very interesting question. I am afraid he didn’t know himself how to enter. I suppose he counted on Gollum all along for that.

Do you think that Frodo had any other choice?
No, he didn’t.

I guess these three points are related.

I often wondered why they didn't just hike off into the mountains, but I guess we have to assume that they must be genuinely impassable.

In which case, Aragorn and Gandalf may not have had anything better to offer. Gandalf had never been in Mordor, only in Dol Guldur, and did not have a clear plan of how to enter it. One would suppose that Aragorn's ideas were around concealment (he was minded to take Gimli and himself with Frodo through the Emyn Muil) but he would have no better idea of a path.

But the really interesting thing about this interaction is how they are forced to trust Gollum. It is Gollum's betrayal that seals his fate on Mount Doom.

We can see in this chapter Frodo's "maturing" into someone who is, for want of a better word, a mouthpiece of fate, able to read the implications of promises and deeds.

I think Gandalf (and Galadriel, Elrond, etc) also had a strong sense that fate was on their side, and that would be why they felt able to trust their fate to Frodo.

[The Gaffer]

It HAD to be brought up, I'm sorry... Do you think that there is any basis for Tolkien being a racist? Or that his thoughts were swayed by the typical Modernist mind-sets of the time?

Describing men from the south as swarthy and black-haired in not racism. It is stating the biological fact. And “Not nice; very cruel wicked Men they look.� is just a way a little hobbit sees enemy soldiers. Later Tolkien describes Easterling and Southron valour when facing the defeat at Pelennor.

I tend to agree. It is very much written from the perspective of an ordinary hobbit-in-the-dirt-track.

Having said that, it is there for those to read those messages who want to, and I think an argument could be made.

I have more of a problem with how evil people are generally described as dark or slanty-eyed. However, I don't think the Haradrim are portrayed as being evil, just enemy soldiers.

[brownjenkins]

A+ BoP :D

The story mentions that, "...How they should enter it at the last Gandalf had not said. Perhaps he could not say." Do you think that Gandalf COULD have counseled them on how to enter Mordor?

use the eagles, of course :p

i'd have to agree with some others here that there was a good deal of "fate" that gandalf was relying upon... you really notice that along the whole journey, even as far back as leaving the shire... gandalf seems to prefer to play the catalyst role, pushing others to make their own decisions as opposed to making decisions for them... even if he was there, he probably would have left the decision in frodo's hands

i don't think he knew what was going to happen (as evidenced by some of his later reactions when he learns of frodo and sam's travels) ... but he realized the importance of letting each and every member of the fellowship make their own decisions, whether for good or ill

[BeardofPants]

I am much impressed by your summary, Beard of Pants! Probably it is the best summary in the whole project. Congratulations!

Thanks, but I think there have been lots of really good contributions to this project. :)


Yes, I think so. It has been discussed in 2 threads before.
Wait, is this where I look amused, and then sarcastically explain that I've been around since 2002, and have seen the threads? :evil: I don't think it really matters if it has or not - it can raise some very interesting discussion points that I feel are relevant to this thread.


Yes, he was from Stoors and lived by the Gladden fields, on the West bank of Anduin. It is in UT, the “Hunt for the Ring�.

Well, all that's really definitive is that Gandalf states that Gollum is likely descended from the stoor stock. That's not necessarily the same as being from the stoors.

Nothing would have changed, IMO. After all, Faramir DID tell Frodo the name of the pass later on, and it didn’t stop him.

So, you don't think the attitude of Frodo had changed much during that time, that he may have considered a different option before tramping all the way down there?

Gandalf’s ORIGINAL plan is a very interesting question. I am afraid he didn’t know himself how to enter. I suppose he counted on Gollum all along for that.

That's an interesting hypothesis... it's too bad really that we can never know for sure what Gandalf's intentions were. :(

Describing men from the south as swarthy and black-haired in not racism. It is stating the biological fact. And “Not nice; very cruel wicked Men they look.� is just a way a little hobbit sees enemy soldiers. Later Tolkien describes Easterling and Southron valour when facing the defeat at Pelennor.
Wait, are you trying to say that it's a biological fact that south = swarthy? Pretty poor choice of words, IMO. Although, I do in fact agree with you. I certainly don't think Tolkien was racist. I do however, think he was a product of his times, for whatever that's worth.

The poor guy has nearly become a wraith…his senses changed. Perhaps he started to appreciate the smell of Morgul Vale flowers already… ;)

*lol* Perhaps. :D

Yes, ever since he spoke of the “other way�
So you think his plan was fixed - that he never had second thoughts?

I think it is just soldier’s common belief. He was lucky so far, that’s all.
I will disagree. :) I think he had a predetermined "fate".

[Gordis]

Wait, is this where I look amused, and then sarcastically explain that I've been around since 2002, and have seen the threads? :evil: I don't think it really matters if it has or not - it can raise some very interesting discussion points that I feel are relevant to this thread.
No need to be sarcastic, BeardofPants. :) You have not participated in these threads, so, for all I know, you might well be unaware of them. ;) But, in fact, I mentioned them only to avoid repeating my arguments yet again and make it short. I was in a hurry, that's all.

Well, all that's really definitive is that Gandalf states that Gollum is likely descended from the stoor stock. That's not necessarily the same as being from the stoors.
But in the Unfinished Tales "The Hunt for the Ring" his Stoor origin is stated explicitly:
" They were told also by Khamûl that no dwelling of Halflings could be discovered in the Vales of Anduin, and that the villages of the Stoors by the Gladden had long been deserted." And also: "The account of the vain journey of the Nazgûl up the Vales of Anduin is much the same in version B as in that printed in full above (A), but with the difference that in B the Stoor settlements were not entirely deserted at that time; and such of the Stoors as dwelt there were slain or driven away by the Nazgûl" And again: "In a letter written in 1959 my father said: "Between 2463 [Déagol the Stoor found the One Ring, according to the Tale of Years] and the beginning of Gandalf's special enquiries concerning the Ring (nearly 500 years later) they [the Stoors] appear indeed to have died out altogether (except of course for Sméagol); or to have fled from the shadow of Dol Guldur."

So, you don't think the attitude of Frodo had changed much during that time, that he may have considered a different option before tramping all the way down there?
IMHO, at first he thought that Morannon was the only entry, and was going to try it. Then he learned of another entrance and was determined to go there, regardless of Faramir's warnings. He knew of no other option.

Wait, are you trying to say that it's a biological fact that south = swarthy? Pretty poor choice of words, IMO.
:rolleyes: Yes, I am trying to say exactly that. Native people of the South (in the Northern hemisphere) and of the North (in the Southern hemisphere) are either swarthy or black-skinned. That is a natural adaptation permitting skin to adjust to the constant exposure to the Sun. There is nothing racist about the fact! Of course, warriors from South Harad and Khand were swarthy.
Tolkien never implied that swarthy=bad. Hobbits were rather brown-skinned (not in the movie, of course). Neither had he implied that all the white-skinned people were "good". Black Numenoreans in Sauron's service (like the Mouth) were for the most part from the house of Hador, i.e. golden-haired, blue eyed and fair-skinned. As far as I remember, Easterlings from Rhun were rather fair-skinned as well.
So you think [Gollum's] plan was fixed - that he never had second thoughts? . Perhaps he had, when Smeagorl prevailed over Gollum, but what does that change?
I will disagree. :) I think [Faramir] had a predetermined "fate".
May be, may be… But what do you think the Fate spared him for? To refuse the Ring or to comfort Eowyn in distress? :rolleyes:

[BeardofPants]

No need to be sarcastic, BeardofPants. :)

Don't worry, I wasn't. You'll know when I'm bein' sarcastic. ;)

But in the Unfinished Tales "The Hunt for the Ring" his Stoor origin is stated explicitly...

I am well aware of what it states in the UT (and HoME) for that matter. :) However, whether or not UT can be considered canon is another matter. As far as the LOTR discussion goes, smeagol (and deagol) are proto-hobbits, rather than directly of stoor stock.

Yes, I am trying to say exactly that.
thank you for clarifying that point. I will certainly agree with you that equatorial regions tend to select for the 'swarthier' skin. I had thought you were implying that this was an overall tendency for southern located countries, and since I'm from NZ, and as white as they come, I was a bit perplexed! And in any case, I'm not going to argue anthropology with you, I have been there, done that (degree in anthropology). ;)

May be, may be… But what do you think the Fate spared him for? To refuse the Ring or to comfort Eowyn in distress? :rolleyes:

You don't think his was a greater role than to refuse the ring, and "comfort" Eowyn?

[brownjenkins]

i think faramir's "fate" was redemption for his father, and for the people of gondor as a whole... he represents the noble side of the line of isildur that endured throughout all the troubled times... aragorn certainly plays a larger role in the return of the kingdom, but faramir's character is a representation that some of that nobility still survived among the men of arnor

[Gordis]

I am well aware of what it states in the UT (and HoME) for that matter. :) However, whether or not UT can be considered canon is another matter. As far as the LOTR discussion goes, smeagol (and deagol) are proto-hobbits, rather than directly of stoor stock. ... I'm not going to argue anthropology with you, I have been there, done that (degree in anthropology). ;)
So you have read UT and HOME but you don't believe these sources. Interesting.

However, you must agree that the "Tale of Years" is an integral part of the LOTR. Here is the quote:
1050 The Periannath are first mentioned in records, with the coming of the Harfoots to Eriador.
c. 1150 The Fallohides enter Eriador. The Stoors come over the Redhorn Pass and move to the Angle, or to Dunland.
1601 Many Periannath migrate from Bree, and are granted land beyond Baranduin by Argeleb II.
1630 They are joined by Stoors coming up from Dunland.
2463 About this time Déagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Sméagol.
And here is a quote from LOTR Prologue:
" Before the crossing of the mountains the Hobbits had already become divided into three somewhat different breeds: Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides."
You see, oh learned anthropologist :p , that even by T.A. 1050, 1400 years before Smeagol, the three hobbit races were already distinct.
Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides have acquired apomorphic features.
A plesiomorphic proto-hobbit had existed MUCH earlier: "The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten"(LOTR).
As for Smeagol, he was a Stoor! :evil:

[BeardofPants]

You are of course deliberately trying to misinterpret me. I never stated that I disbelieved UT & HoME, but rather, that there are of course aspects of it that are problematic, and therefore can not be considered canon.

I am not going to go around the fence with you any more in any case, because I have better things to do than argue with a smug lil' shite. Instead, I will refer you to this lil' thread (http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=3813&highlight=Gollum+stoor) (which shows that it is not just me that subscribes to the proto-hobbit theory), and remind you that we all have our theories, and this happens to be mine. There is no need to be so goddamned rude about it.

[Gordis]

I am not going to go around the fence with you any more in any case, because I have better things to do than argue with a smug lil' shite. Instead, I will refer you to this lil' thread (http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=3813&highlight=Gollum+stoor) (which shows that it is not just me that subscribes to the proto-hobbit theory), and remind you that we all have our theories, and this happens to be mine. There is no need to be so goddamned rude about it.
Yes, there is no way we can continue the discussion. Your proto-hobbit theory is absolutely groundless, you are unable to support it even with a single fact. The silly thread you referred to has nothing to do with it anyway.

You are definitely the rudest person I have encountered at this Moot.
Farewell, BeardofPants

[brownjenkins]

You are definitely the rudest person I have encountered at this Moot.
Farewell, BeardofPants

you obviously haven't been here very long :p

don't be so hasty gordis http://home.comcast.net/~rijak/tsk.gif

tolkien's idea's were always developing, both before and after the publication of lotr... so there is actually no "canon" at all, which is why there can be so many different theories which are just as valid even if they do not agree with one another

and why tolkien is so interesting to discuss :D

[olsonm]

Was it Gollum's promise to the Ring that prevented him from answering this question directly, or something else? It is interesting to note that even when Frodo manages to draw him out about the way being guarded, there is always something that apparently stops Gollum from being truthful - later on in this passage, he is presumably in a sulk because of being accused of being a liar, and manages to further dodge any questions of the pass being guarded.I would conjecture that Gollum's promise to Shelob was also playing a part in preventing him from opening up to Frodo. "...and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret. And he had promised to bring her food....And Gollum brought it to her." Creepy. Very entertaining summary BoP. :cool:

[Earniel]

*Catching up through older chapters* Nice and extensive intro, BoP, even if I'm a little late in mentioning it. :p

An interesting on-going theme in Lord of the Rings is that Sauron very seldom seems to build, or create new buildings, but rather, seems to corrupt and defile buildings of his enemies. Do you think this is related to what Tolkien said about the Enemy not being able to create life, only pervert?
I think opportunity is a bigger factor in it than his ability or create life or not. When Morgoth built Angband and the Thangorodrim there weren't any other fortresses yet that he could have invaded and taken over. But when Sauron found his country was nicely surrounded by very convenient structures and fortresses that either stood empty, or could be taken over relatively easily, it would have made sense that he filled them with his own servants.

Not only did he not have to face the logistic problem of actually having to build things but he could sneak into the abandoned structures quite easily and turn them on his enemies. Building whole new structures on the mountains encircling Mordor would have drawn more attention, or more easily, than simply and silently taking over existing structures, IMO. And it doesn't take quite so long either. I take it that it would have been very agonizing for the people of Gondor to see Sauron not only take over their built fortresses and towers but also turn them into weapons against them. I suppose that alone was enough reason for Sauron to do so.

Do you think this stone survived the fall of Barad-dur?
I think it is possible. The PalantÃ*ri were rather sturdy made, if one remembers the one in Orthanc splintering the step where it landed and that it was itself undamaged. So I think it is possible the stone survived the actual collapse of the tower, but it is difficult to say how it would react to fire.

How do you think the story would have diverge if perhaps Aragorn or Gandalf had been there to warn Frodo of Gollum's deception? Or if either Frodo or Sam had been better students of Mordor's Geography?
This is of course pure speculation but I reckon, that if Gandalf and Aragorn were with Frodo and Sam at that moment, they wouldn't have tried to take another road. Cirith Ungol was still the best option they had to get into Mordor unnoticed. I do not know whether Gandalf and Aragorn were aware of Shelob lurking in the tunnel but I think they would have chosen Cirith Ungol regardless. What would have been different, is possibly the fight with Shelob and the way the orcs captured the unconcious Frodo. I don't think that would have happened if the Hobbits had been accompanied.

Why do you suppose Gollum finds the smells of Ithilien to be so distressing?
I suppose he has been hiding too long under his Mountain to be able to appreciate the odours of the world above ground.

[i]What modern locale do you think Ithilien is comparable to? (water lilies on the lake, "English" trees, fern, hot southern winds.)
I never thought Ithilien was meant to resemble a certain country side of England. I always had the idea that it had the feel of a garden, a wonderful old fashioned garden, the kind you'd love to have had when you were a kid to play around in. Or the garden your neighbours had but where you always wanted to sneak in because it was so beautiful. The sort of large garden with a wall around and a pond with lillies and where you could spy on the frogs, with trees to climb in and such. A garden that has been neglected for a while, but that reminds you of those wonderful childhood memories. And we all know that often childhood memories represent something better and more glorious than it actually was. The stone bassins, the mentions of Ithilien being the garden of Gondor, strengthen my idea of that. I don't know whether I can get the image across sufficiently but I reckon I'm probably the only one who thinks like that. :p

The notion of Platonic Love has been brought up before - do you think that a relationship such as that of Sam's and Frodo's is replicated in 'Modern Life', or is it purely a work of fiction from a bygone era?
This might probably be only me too, but I thought at first such a relationship was indeed something you'd only come across in older works of fiction. But when I saw the new Doctor Who series I was kind of struck by simularities in the Doctor's and Rose's relationship and that of Sam and Frodo.