Nazgul horses [Archive]

Gordis

05-11-2005, 04:56 PM

Hi, all!
I have made a curious observation. I hope it was not discussed before.

After the nazgul were drowned at the Bruinen Ford only the bodies of 8 horses were found:
Three of the black horses had been found at once drowned in the flooded Ford. On the rocks of the rapids below it searchers discovered the bodies of five more, and also a long black cloak, slashed and tattered. Of the Black Riders no other trace was to be seen, and nowhere was their presence to be felt. It seemed that they had vanished from the North.
'Eight out of the Nine are accounted for at least,' said Gandalf. 'It is rash to be too sure, yet I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless.
So, as you can see, one horse may have remained alive.

Isn't it curious that later only one of the nazgul (the Witch-King) was seen to ride a horse at the siege of Minas Tirith? The rest were constantly on Fell Beasts.

I believe that horse was the same animal that survived the Flood.

So it looks like:
1. One of the Black Riders (most likely the WK) was able to get out of the river without "loosing his shape" (whatever that means) and save a horse and ride to Mordor ahead of the others. Later he probably collected the rest of his Riders on the Fell Beast (remember the shape that flew over the Fellowship near Caradhras)
2. The nazgul had only one trained horse each
3. The training took a long time, not just a single spell, but probably a lot of petting and carrot-feeding

What do you think on it?

me9996

05-11-2005, 06:28 PM

Hi, all!
I have made a curious observation. I hope it was not discussed before.

After the nazgul were drowned at the Bruinen Ford only the bodies of 8 horses were found:

So, as you can see, one horse may have remained alive.

Isn't it curious that later only one of the nazgul (the Witch-King) was seen to ride a horse at the siege of Minas Tirith? The rest were constantly on Fell Beasts.

I believe that horse was the same animal that survived the Flood.

So it looks like:
1. One of the Black Riders (most likely the WK) was able to get out of the river without "loosing his shape" (whatever that means) and save a horse and ride to Mordor ahead of the others. Later he probably collected the rest of his Riders on the Fell Beast (remember the shape that flew over the Fellowship near Caradhras)
2. The nazgul had only one trained horse each
3. The training took a long time, not just a single spell, but probably a lot of petting and carrot-feeding

What do you think on it?
Don't think so, Tolken was a very good wrighter...

Nurvingiel

05-11-2005, 08:21 PM

Olmer

05-11-2005, 10:23 PM

I don't see why they wouldn't just train more than one horse per Nazgul at the same time Gordis. (Or at least, in orverlapping timelines.) This could also have coincided with a fell beast development program.
Considering that the riders were emitting such fear "so that horse and man gave way and fled "(FOTR), I wouldn't say that it will be an easy task to train the horse. Probably this horses has been picked out of thousands of others who were so scared of Nazgul, that became untrainable.
They, probably had more success with Fell beasts.

Great observation, gordis!

Last Child of Ungoliant

05-12-2005, 03:36 AM

i agree with olmer here, it is quite obvious, to me, that the training of the black horses would be a long process, seeing as how the nazgul inspire terror in all living things, including the orcs and trolls - on the other hand, the fell beasts were nurtured by sauron, or the nazgul, fed with fell meats

The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil. And the Dark Lord took it, and nursed it with fell meats, until it grew beyond the measure of all things that fly; and he gave it to his servant to be his steed.

but of course, this begs the question, What were the fell beasts?

Nurvingiel

05-12-2005, 06:12 AM

Considering that the riders were emitting such fear "so that horse and man gave way and fled "(FOTR), I wouldn't say that it will be an easy task to train the horse. Probably this horses has been picked out of thousands of others who were so scared of Nazgul, that became untrainable.
They, probably had more success with Fell beasts.

Great observation, gordis!
That's a good point, but I still think they could find more than nine. I agree that it would take a long time though.

Gordis

05-12-2005, 11:36 AM

Don't think so, Tolken was a very good wrighter...
An ordinary "wrighter" would have made the Elves find all the Nine horses. But Tolkien was a genius. There are always things unanswered, something you can muse about…
Considering that the riders were emitting such fear "so that horse and man gave way and fled "(FOTR), I wouldn't say that it will be an easy task to train the horse. Probably this horses has been picked out of thousands of others who were so scared of Nazgul, that became untrainable.
They, probably had more success with Fell beasts.
Great observation, gordis!
Thanks, Olmer.
Yes I agree. The nazgul horses must have been quite unique. And not only were some horses "picked out of thousands of others who were too scared of Nazgul", but also perhaps these selected ones had to be interbred to get foals to be trained by nazgul from a very young age. Bottlefed by nazgul, perhaps :D . (Gandalf says that they were "BORN and BRED in the service of Mordor").
Nazgul could "look through the eyes of their horses" ho help their poor eyesight, that means they had to establish a pretty strong mental connection with the horse.

Moreover, they were OUTSTANDING horses, not the sorry maltreated creatures of PJ's movie. Gandalf praising Shadowfax says: "The horses of the Nine cannot vie with him" However, you can see from the example below that they come very close behind:
Tale of Years
Nazgul: Fords of Isen - 18.09; Sarn Ford - evening 22.09
Gandald on Shadowfax: Fords of Isen - 24.09; Sarn Ford - 28.09

So it took the same time (4 days) for Shadowfax and the nazgul horses to cover the same distance! And Gandalf said he has ridden in a great hurry!

So, possibly the nazgul horses were all of Mearas blood, therefore very rare to come by. It seems that Shadowfax had no fear of the nazgul, so perhaps his kin was also eligible for this character.

I believe that given all those difficulties with horses, each nazgul started training a new horse when the previous was growing old. That was sensible in times of peace. And, remember, Sauron was not planning to start the war that soon, until in 3017 he learned about the Ring from Gollum. So in two years there was no time for the nazgul to train extra horses. And even much less time after their own were drowned.

strider8

05-12-2005, 11:49 AM

Telcontar_Dunedain

05-12-2005, 12:50 PM

Gordis

05-12-2005, 01:03 PM

Well according to UT it took the Nazgûl a long time to reach Dol Guldur from Mordor horseless. This could mean that it was the WK above the The Company on Caradhras, but this would mean that he did not remain on horseback for the entire Search and War of the Ring.
I never said that the Witch-King had no Fell Beast of his own! I meant only that the 9 nazgul were left with only one horse for the War of the Ring.

The Wizard from Milan

05-12-2005, 01:36 PM

Good catch!
It certainly is a possibility that I had overlooked; I don't think we will ever know for sure.

Last Child of Ungoliant

05-12-2005, 02:35 PM

That would make quite an interesting thread LCoU.

P.S.Can i call you LCoU for short, if not i apologise greatly
certainly

Pytt

05-13-2005, 04:04 PM

Forkbeard

05-13-2005, 04:34 PM

Gordis

05-13-2005, 04:52 PM

And since WK( let's assume he was the one with a horse) should leed the battle, maybe it was more usefull with him on the ground, having more controll of his forces against Minas Tirith. So they had more horses, but didn't use them. Make sense?
Of course it is possible, but not likely IMHO. They could breed more than nine but training a horse must have been a long process, taking lots of nazgul time. And you are right, when a nazgul leads troops in a battle he is more efficient on the ground, not flying overhead and screaming. The other 8 nazgul were pretty useless as leaders during the Pelennor and the Morannon battles, IMO. So probably they didn't have horses available.

Forkbeard

05-13-2005, 04:55 PM

Agree that the horses needed along training. And as Gordis saying, about the time compared to Shadowfax, they were most ceartainly Mearas. Which is rare. But I would assume they had the chance to breed more than 9 of these horses.

Maybe they had more, but by something Sauron found it more usefull to let them use Fell beasts. Getting the hobbits from Sarumann, searching for Frodo etc. And since WK( let's assume he was the one with a horse) should leed the battle, maybe it was more usefull with him on the ground, having more controll of his forces against Minas Tirith. So they had more horses, but didn't use them. Make sense?

1) While only 8 horses were found, it is a leap in logic to assume that one is alive. It is possible, but not a foredrawn conclusion
2) It would also be unwise, even in peacetime, to only breed a single horse for your generals. A spare is always needed. And while Sauron wasn't planning to start the war so soon, he was planning to go to war, so he probably had more than one horse per Nazgul.
3) There is a rather strange thing here. The WK is on horseback at dawn at the gates of Minas Tirith. Only a short while later, moments after dawn he is on his flying beast being faced down by Eowyn. Recall the scene: at the first crack of Dawn the Rohirrim charge, Theoden far out in front. In the growing light the Easterling king spies him and he and Theoden clash before dawn is fully in the sky. Theoden wins, the new born sun reflecting from his golden shield, to be blotted out by the approach from above of the WK on his winged beasty.

Now we can certainly posit that the WK kept his "fell beast" close at hand so that riding from the gate, he could switches steeds quickly. But is that likely--that a beast that could be killed would just be marched right up to within sight and shot of the walls? Possible, but just doesn't ring true to me. I think this is a spot Tolkien didn't think out well. Not that I care...

FB

Pytt

05-13-2005, 05:05 PM

1) While only 8 horses were found, it is a leap in logic to assume that one is alive. It is possible, but not a foredrawn conclusion
2) It would also be unwise, even in peacetime, to only breed a single horse for your generals. A spare is always needed. And while Sauron wasn't planning to start the war so soon, he was planning to go to war, so he probably had more than one horse per Nazgul.
3) There is a rather strange thing here. The WK is on horseback at dawn at the gates of Minas Tirith. Only a short while later, moments after dawn he is on his flying beast being faced down by Eowyn. Recall the scene: at the first crack of Dawn the Rohirrim charge, Theoden far out in front. In the growing light the Easterling king spies him and he and Theoden clash before dawn is fully in the sky. Theoden wins, the new born sun reflecting from his golden shield, to be blotted out by the approach from above of the WK on his winged beasty.

Now we can certainly posit that the WK kept his "fell beast" close at hand so that riding from the gate, he could switches steeds quickly. But is that likely--that a beast that could be killed would just be marched right up to within sight and shot of the walls? Possible, but just doesn't ring true to me. I think this is a spot Tolkien didn't think out well. Not that I care...

FB

Agree to what you are saying. And I am also of the belief that they had more horses, even if the training (meant that last time) took along time. We are after all talking about the leaders of the Evil fleet.
About the leap assuming one is alive, the whole thread is based on that, so I took it from there.

I think the WK had some way, maybe mentaly, to get in connection with his Fell Beast, so he easily could summon it at his need. If it was keept in Osgiliath for example, the distance is traveled on no time, and he have time to leave, and shortly after taking down Theoden.

oh, come on, care a bit for this interessting discussion ;)

Gordis

05-13-2005, 05:19 PM

1) While only 8 horses were found, it is a leap in logic to assume that one is alive. It is possible, but not a foredrawn conclusion
2) It would also be unwise, even in peacetime, to only breed a single horse for your generals. A spare is always needed. And while Sauron wasn't planning to start the war so soon, he was planning to go to war, so he probably had more than one horse per Nazgul.
3) There is a rather strange thing here. The WK is on horseback at dawn at the gates of Minas Tirith. Only a short while later, moments after dawn he is on his flying beast being faced down by Eowyn. Recall the scene: at the first crack of Dawn the Rohirrim charge, Theoden far out in front. In the growing light the Easterling king spies him and he and Theoden clash before dawn is fully in the sky. Theoden wins, the new born sun reflecting from his golden shield, to be blotted out by the approach from above of the WK on his winged beasty.
Now we can certainly posit that the WK kept his "fell beast" close at hand so that riding from the gate, he could switches steeds quickly. But is that likely--that a beast that could be killed would just be marched right up to within sight and shot of the walls? Possible, but just doesn't ring true to me. I think this is a spot Tolkien didn't think out well. Not that I care...FB
1. I said one horse may have remained alive…
and it was curious that only one nazgul horse was seen later in the War of the Ring battles
It may or may not be a coincidence.

2 We do not know if Sauron was planning to start the war anytime soon before 3017, when he learned about the Ring. Soon yes, but may be in 50 years. Time goes slow for those eternal guys…

Then before 3017 nazgul sat quietly in Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur. Sauron started to use them as messengers and commando force only for matters connected with the Ring. Remember Gandalf's surprize when he learned that the nazgul rode forth? And the risk to loose a horse when in Mordor itself was minimal. I bet the animals were pretty well cared for.

3. I agree with Pytt there. I imagine that the Witch-King could "whistle" for his Fell-Beast or call it by a nazgul screech or by a mental order. The beast could fly to him then and there, there was no need to have it marched to the front lines. So shifting mounts and flying to Theoden was a matter of minutes.
Best,
Gordis

Forkbeard

05-13-2005, 05:26 PM

Of course it is possible, but not likely IMHO. They could breed more than nine but training a horse must have been a long process, taking lots of nazgul time. And you are right, when a nazgul leads troops in a battle he is more efficient on the ground, not flying overhead and screaming. The other 8 nazgul were pretty useless as leaders during the Pelennor and the Morannon battles, IMO. So probably they didn't have horses available.

Oh, quite disagree. First, the number of horses available for training depends greatly on the number of mares one has and how randy the stallion(s). A small heard of 20 would be more than sufficient in the natural world to supply 9 Nazgul with 2 horses each all but simultaneously. And who says that the Nazgul themselves trained them? Visited often, sure, so that the beast wouldn't fear them, but there's no need to have the Nazgul do the actual training. I'm sure Sauron had more than 20 horses.

Second, as we've learned so well in the modern period, the ability to see the battle from above is so much better than being on the ground. The WK opted to be on the ground in order to shatter the gates and be the first one through, but he could communicate with the others ranging over the battlefield.

Third, unless I missed something we aren't told that all 8 are there. That there are more than one, yes, but once battle is enjoined other Nazgul may in fact be elsewhere--one in command of the forces attacking Lothlorien from Dol Guldur.

Fourth, psychological warfare. That was the Nazgul's chief responsibility and they did it well. If the defenders lose the will to fight, and they did, then the battle is already won.

FB

Forkbeard

05-13-2005, 05:32 PM

Agree to what you are saying. And I am also of the belief that they had more horses, even if the training (meant that last time) took along time. We are after all talking about the leaders of the Evil fleet.
About the leap assuming one is alive, the whole thread is based on that, so I took it from there.

I think the WK had some way, maybe mentaly, to get in connection with his Fell Beast, so he easily could summon it at his need. If it was keept in Osgiliath for example, the distance is traveled on no time, and he have time to leave, and shortly after taking down Theoden.

Perhaps, but we aren't really told, are we?

oh, come on, care a bit for this interessting discussion ;)
Oh, I only meant that for the purposes of reading the story and enjoying it, I don't think I want to know about things like those I mentioned.

Butterbeer

05-13-2005, 05:47 PM

PYTT: they were most certainly Mearas

well excuse me bud but i totally disagree: how many mearas WERE THERE???
were they ten a penny?

Steal a (rare anyway) black one from Rohan and get one free???

NO!
IMHO the Mearas were (please correct me if there is evidence to the contrary anywhere) the Mearas were both rare and even rarer in these days, and the black horses AS raided and stolen rather than given in any tribute were rarer still.

Shadowfax was the last of his kind the Rohirrim think and say. He was Chieftan: were then EVERY rare Blackhorse carted off to Sauron and Mordor ALL Lesser Mearas?

Gordis:
My general (initial to be sure) take is that they did take a lot of training and selection for sure: but THEY would SURELY have back-ups: IF ;) it was SO hard and SO MASSIVELY AGAINST THE ODDS TO ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO TRAIN ANY HORSE TO BE RIDDEN BY A RIDER

* presses caps lock*

then they would just NOT consider riders on horseback at all.

Therefore the facT that they DID suggests that WHILST NOT any easy exercise it wasn't totally impossible at all.

I am open to your original idea: but to be fair would need therefore some serious convincing!

PS PYTT: didn't mean to be rude or anything with above post! :) just the way it rolled off the typer!
best
BB

Forkbeard

05-13-2005, 05:52 PM

1. I said one horse may have remained alive…
and it was curious that only one nazgul horse was seen later in the War of the Ring battles
It may or may not be a coincidence.
True, but you also stated your belief, and underlined it, that the missing horse survived, and that it was the same beast the WK rode before the Gates of Minas Tirith. You then further stated in part: So it looks like:
1. One of the Black Riders (most likely the WK) was able to get out of the river without "loosing his shape" (whatever that means) and save a horse and ride to Mordor ahead of the others. Later he probably collected the rest of his Riders on the Fell Beast (remember the shape that flew over the Fellowship near Caradhras)
2. The nazgul had only one trained horse each

So you see how one could see that statements like "may have remained alive" etc are not quite the strongest and loudest statements in your original post.

2 We do not know if Sauron was planning to start the war anytime soon before 3017, when he learned about the Ring. Soon yes, but may be in 50 years. Time goes slow for those eternal guys…

True, we don't know when he was going to start, but we do know he was planning it since 2951, and that his arm began to get noticeably stronger after 3000. He sent 3 of the Nazgul to Dol Guldur in 2951, surely he's bright enough to figure out that horses can be killed and do die and that his chief servants may need more than one? And he certainly had enough to figure it out...60 years! That is several lifetimes of horses.

Further, if there were more than one fell beast (and how long did it take for them to be raised to adulthood and trained) per Nazgul (remember that at least one has been felled by Legolas, yet nine are in the air), surely he's thought enough ahead to provide multiple horses?

Then before 3017 nazgul sat quietly in Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur. Sauron started to use them as messengers and commando force only for matters connected with the Ring. Remember Gandalf's surprize when he learned that the nazgul rode forth?

So? Since he's been preparing for war for over 50 years, do you really seriously think that he has only 1 horse per Naz, when even the orcs are better equipped? I doubt it. Plenty of time to have plenty of horses for Nazgul bred, trained, and to have had foals bred and trained and for these foals to grow up and be bred and have foals.....and so on. By the time you get through a few generations of horses, you have a large herd, and they of course are going to be accustomed to their masters.

I don't know that Gandalf was surprised so much as this was the signal that Sauron felt strong enough to do something, and of course since they were riding north, Gandalf had Frodo and the Ring to worry about. He did after all already know that Gollum had been in Mordor and been there sometime and that Sauron may have learned of the Ring--so he was more concerned and afraid and in haste than surprised.

3. I agree with Pytt there. I imagine that the Witch-King could "whistle" for his Fell-Beast or call it by a nazgul screech or by a mental order. The beast could fly to him then and there, there was no need to have it marched to the front lines. So shifting mounts and flying to Theoden was a matter of minutes.

Assumption though. Possible, but utterly, completely assumption.

Telcontar_Dunedain

05-14-2005, 02:46 AM

Pytt

05-14-2005, 06:41 AM

well excuse me bud but i totally disagree: how many mearas WERE THERE???
were they ten a penny?

Steal a (rare anyway) black one from Rohan and get one free???

NO!
IMHO the Mearas were (please correct me if there is evidence to the contrary anywhere) the Mearas were both rare and even rarer in these days, and the black horses AS raided and stolen rather than given in any tribute were rarer still.

Shadowfax was the last of his kind the Rohirrim think and say. He was Chieftan: were then EVERY rare Blackhorse carted off to Sauron and Mordor ALL Lesser Mearas?

The Mearas were extremley rare, but I build the assumpation that the horses the nazgul used were Mearas on what Gordis had found out about haste vs Shadowfax.
It couldn't be alot of Mearas left, but we know Sauron got horses stealed from Rohan, and I don't think it is uncapable for his forces to get Mearas too. If they first got more than one Mearas, couldn't they mate them, and so get more Mearas? I would believe that was possible. And about the black horses, if they first got their hands on a white mearas, they could somehow change the color to black. Only something I think, off course.

But the strongest prove as I see it, is their speed as Gordis have showed.

PS PYTT: didn't mean to be rude or anything with above post! :) just the way it rolled off the typer!
best
BB

No problem :)

Forkbeard

05-14-2005, 12:25 PM

FB, you said that the Nazgûl did not have to train them, just visit everynow and again. I disagree.

If you were taken hostage, and your captors did not have guns, you would be scared stiff, when a guy visits with a gun, as you would be everytime he isits. If however he was you captor, then after a while you would grow use to there being a man with a gun, and you wouldn't be as scared, you'd just be cautious. IMO it's that same with the Nazgûl. If they just visited, the horses would be scared stiff every time they came. If the Nazgûl trained them, they'd get use to the Nazgûl.

But we aren't speaking of "captives" except for the first generation of stolen or tribute horses. We are specifically told by Tolkien that the steeds the Nazgul ride have been specially BRED for the purpose--i. e. these are not captive horses that have had to be trained, but were BORN with Sauron and the Nazgul nearby if not present and whom they've seen since birth.

Take modern horse training. The jockey, the actual rider of the horse, doesn't train the horse, or feed it, or do daily exercise. He stops by from time to time to ride and horse and rider come to know and be accustomed to one another. But there are others who do the training, grooming, feeding, exercise etc. Same here. The Nazgul probably have to be present more often than the modern jockey because of the fear that they would inculcate, but that doesn't mean that they have to take the time to do the actual training and care and feeding of the animals.

And of course we're all talking about this without reference to Sauron's power and knowledge--spells and herbs and such things.

FB

Telcontar_Dunedain

05-15-2005, 06:07 AM

Born and Bred are two different things. If they were only bred by Sauron, that does not mean tehy were born with him. Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgûl. Nazgûl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys. ;)

IIRC it never says when the horses were stolen, but it can't be that long before the hunt for the Ring, as before then the Nazgûl were not clad in robes, so the only trace of them passing would be a feeling of terror.

Gordis

05-15-2005, 03:00 PM

Perhaps, but we aren't really told, are we?
Oh, I only meant that for the purposes of reading the story and enjoying it, I don't think I want to know about things like those I mentioned.
There is a lot of things we aren't really told of. So have we no right to discuss them? If we only ask questions that can be answered with a Tolkien's quote, than what is the need for discussion? One has only to sit down and reread Tolkien's works. And the discussion will be reduced to threads like "my favorite place, person, quote, etc"
Please, believe me, I mean no offence. Really I don't. You may not want to know about such things. You have the right to feel the way you do. As for me, I am most interested in questions unanswered. And IMHO some of the questions may still be answered logically even if Tolkien had no time or interest to clarify them. Yes, it is conjecture. But: why not? :)
IMHO the Mearas were (please correct me if there is evidence to the contrary anywhere) the Mearas were both rare and even rarer in these days, and the black horses AS raided and stolen rather than given in any tribute were rarer still.
IIRC it never says when the horses were stolen, but it can't be that long before the hunt for the Ring, as before then the Nazgûl were not clad in robes, so the only trace of them passing would be a feeling of terror.
About horse theft.
I don't think that the nazgul stole any horses themselves. :) Most probably they send men or orcs for that.

I think we must distinguish a massive theft of black horses reported before the War of the Ring from the theft of a few black Mearas. I think that most of the horses stolen from Rohan were ordinary horses: they were not meant for the nazgul, but just for men in Sauron's army. Black horses were fashionable in Mordor. :)

Butterbeer is right that Mearas were very rare, only Rohan king's line had the right to ride them. But still the horses the nazgul rode in 3018 must have been Mearas, their speed proves that.

I suppose that the nazgul were lucky if they could obtain a single black mearas once in a while. Perhaps they kept a small interbreeding herd of a few mearas, and added new horses to it over the years when they could. I suppose the herd was kept neither in Morgul Vale, nor in Gorgoroth, perhaps somewhere near Nurn. Than careful breeding could provide the numbers required.

Now the question of timing.
It is possible that the first black Mearas were stolen from Rohan long before Sauron's return to Mordor (2951). The nazgul lived in Minas Morgul since 2002 and they needed horses to ride.

I believe that each nazgul had a succession of horses during his long life, in the Second and in the Third age alike. At least it is reported that the Witch-King rode a black horse in the battle of Fornost in TA 1975. Were those previous horses mearas as well? We do not know. Possibly yes, if all the Mearas, like Shadowfax, were characterized not only by speed, but by great endurance to nazgul presence. Perhaps ordinary horses could not be trained at all. Black mearas could be obtained (bought or stolen) from Rhovanion even before Eorl met Felarof. Perhaps the Witch-King had a few in Angmar.

After all, Mearas were in ME during the Second and the Third age. "Men said that Oromë must have brought their sire from West over Sea"(LOTR appendices)

Forkbeard

05-16-2005, 12:26 AM

Born and Bred are two different things.

Hey TD,

I think you are grasping at straws here. To be born is to be birthed. To breed is to produce offspring, to beget, usually on purpose and under controlled conditions. Different, but not by much.

If they were only bred by Sauron, that does not mean tehy were born with him.

a) do you think that these horses and other beasts for Sauron's armies and minions were born and raised and trained in other places besides Mordor? If in Mordor, Sauron's presence is always felt as we see with Sam in Mordor, more so with Frodo, but Frodo carries the Ring. If somewhere else, where, and how would it have been kept secret, and how would the Nazgul have trained them?
b) how do you see "born and bred" as being different so that being bred specifically to bear the Nazgul could exclude being born in Sauron's herds in Mordor?

Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgûl. Nazgûl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys. ;)

But doesn't this destroy your point about the Nazgul training the steeds as well? After all, if their presence was in the spiritual world so that they can not be compared to jockeys, then they can not very well be training horses either.

IIRC it never says when the horses were stolen,

I was just trying to cover all possibilities. Besides the Rohirrim deny giving Sauron horses as tribute or anything else, but that rumor had to start somewhere--perhaps Sauron simply stole them, perhaps Wormtongue arranged it secretly, perhaps....

but it can't be that long before the hunt for the Ring, as before then the Nazgûl were not clad in robes, so the only trace of them passing would be a feeling of terror.

So, the 3 Nazgul in Dol Guldur from 2951 onwards had no way of interacting with the troops under their command, and so were neither robed nor rode horses? Yes, they kept themselves hidden from the Wise and their spies, and were not revealed until 3017, but surely they intereacted with Sauron's troops before that point.

Olmer

05-16-2005, 12:33 AM

There is a lot of things we aren't really told of.
And IMHO some of the questions may still be answered logically even if Tolkien had no time or interest to clarify them.
You are so right!
Also, we should bear in mind that even if it very well might be not what Tolkien meant to tell and the another dimension in his book turned out quite independedly, we can't sign-off the fact that, as genius as he was, he might weave it in the story's canvas just for the heck of it.
As he was writing to his son Christopher, it is not the story, which mostly exites a reader, but an untold glimpses of another stories behind it, which fuels your imagination. He wanted his story to be an inspiration for many people’s imagination, and, as we can see now, he greatly succeeded in it.

Perhaps they kept a small interbreeding herd of a few mearas, and added new horses to it over the years when they could.

Some species cann't breed in captivity, and when we were talking about Mearas, such free-willed and noble horses, we know that they would hardly endure to be in confined space. So, I think that Nazgul Mearas was really one of the kind. Probable are being captured while colts and slowly trained to tolerate the Ringwraith.

Forkbeard

05-16-2005, 01:17 AM

There is a lot of things we aren't really told of. So have we no right to discuss them?

Nice speech. I mean that, much of what you said I agree with, else I wouldn't be here.

HOWEVER, I invite you to go back and look at the context in which I made the comment. Pytt suggested that the WK had a psychic connection with his flying beast so that the beast could be called to the battlefield from some distance away and still be there in moments. If you have some logical or other sorts of proof to offer such a reading, by all means present it. If you haven't, well, nice speech, but I must say, kind of unnecessary, since all of us here discussing this topic are more or less speculating and discussing things beyond what Tolkien actually wrote.

Please, believe me, I mean no offence. Really I don't. You may not want to know about such things. You have the right to feel the way you do.

Ok, fair enough, though difficult not to take offence. In any case, I will point once again to the context in which the statement was made, it was a fairly specific context, and lets go from there. Its one thing to discuss things beyond what Tolkien wrote, it is another to rewrite what Tolkien wrote.

About horse theft.
I don't think that the nazgul stole any horses themselves. :) Most probably they send men or orcs for that.

No disagreement there. What general or chief steals his own horse?

I think we must distinguish a massive theft of black horses reported before the War of the Ring from the theft of a few black Mearas. I think that most of the horses stolen from Rohan were ordinary horses: they were not meant for the nazgul, but just for men in Sauron's army. Black horses were fashionable in Mordor. :)

WHo else do we see on black horses, other than the Mouth? No matter though, what is of interest is a long term breeding of horses. If Sauron declared himself in Mordor in 2951, one can bet that he had already been planning to rise again and destroy Gondor and conquer the rest of Middle Earth. While he struck early because of the Ring, one can see that he had been planning long and in detail: a difficult and time consuming thing to throw a HUGE army against Gondor, have another at Dol Guldur to assault Lothlorien, another on the road to prevent the Rohirrim from getting through, to throw yet more troops into an assault on Rohan while the Rohirrim were helping the Gondorans, to have another attack Thranduil's realm, and another Dain and Brand. And still have a huge force gathered at the Black Gate to face the Captains of the West. That takes mucho planning, and it is doubtful that all of a sudden in 3017 Sauron thought, "Hey, why not put the Nazgul into service? That's the ticket! They'll need horses, mind you...." No, I think Sauron had backup steeds for the Nazgul long before he revealed the Nine in 3017.

Butterbeer is right that Mearas were very rare, only Rohan king's line had the right to ride them. But still the horses the nazgul rode in 3018 must have been Mearas, their speed proves that.

We're still assuming that they horses the Nine rode were Mearas, that they were captured shortly before the War and not long before, perhaps even descendants of mearas captured in the Second Age.

The issue of speed suggests mearas. But the question of speed could also be a simple blunder by Tolkien, or it could be explained by sorcery. I do wonder if Tolkien thought of this: one factor not pointed out yet (I don't think) is that the nine can keep up with Glorfindel's horse in Book I, barely, but they do keep up.

I suppose that the nazgul were lucky if they could obtain a single black mearas once in a while. Perhaps they kept a small interbreeding herd of a few mearas, and added new horses to it over the years when they could. I suppose the herd was kept neither in Morgul Vale, nor in Gorgoroth, perhaps somewhere near Nurn. Than careful breeding could provide the numbers required.
Exactly, and would be far enough away from prying spies too.

Now the question of timing.
It is possible that the first black Mearas were stolen from Rohan long before Sauron's return to Mordor (2951). The nazgul lived in Minas Morgul since 2002 and they needed horses to ride.

I believe that each nazgul had a succession of horses during his long life, in the Second and in the Third age alike. At least it is reported that the Witch-King rode a black horse in the battle of Fornost in TA 1975. Were those previous horses mearas as well? We do not know. Possibly yes, if all the Mearas, like Shadowfax, were characterized not only by speed, but by great endurance to nazgul presence. Perhaps ordinary horses could not be trained at all. Black mearas could be obtained (bought or stolen) from Rhovanion even before Eorl met Felarof. Perhaps the Witch-King had a few in Angmar.

This is a very real possibility, that Sauron, even perhaps Morgoth, had captured some of the Mearas and perverted them to his purposes and to carry his servants. It is entirely possible that we are talking about a long term, age long program of Sauron's to provide horses for his troops, particularly his generals.

Forkbeard

05-16-2005, 01:18 AM

Forkbeard

05-16-2005, 01:20 AM

Et tu Olmer??!!??!!

You are so right
Also, we should bear in mind that even if it very well might be not what Tolkien meant to tell and the another dimension in his book turned out quite independedly, we can't sign-off the fact that, as genius as he was, he might weave it in the story's canvas just for the heck of it.
As he was writing to his son Christopher, it is not the story, which mostly exites a reader, but an untold glimpses of another stories behind it, which fuels your imagination. He wanted his story to be an inspiration for many people’s imagination, and, as we can see now, he greatly succeeded in it.

Some species cann't breed in captivity, and when we were talking about Mearas, such free-willed and noble horses, we know that they would hardly endure to be in confined space. So, I think that Nazgul Mearas was really one of the kind. Probable are being captured while colts and slowly trained to tolerate the Ringwraith.

Gordis

05-16-2005, 11:40 AM

True, we don't know when he was going to start, but we do know he was planning it since 2951, and that his arm began to get noticeably stronger after 3000. He sent 3 of the Nazgul to Dol Guldur in 2951, surely he's bright enough to figure out that horses can be killed and do die and that his chief servants may need more than one? And he certainly had enough to figure it out...60 years! That is several lifetimes of horses.
I agree with you that Sauron WAS interested to provide nazgul with spare horses. Ys he was. The more the better. I only question the POSSIBILITY to get enough mearas to train. Probably nine in single generation were about the maximum he can physically get. Olmer has a very good point that mearas could be difficult to breed in captivity. Landscape could also matter: Mordor is certainly not Rohan or Rhovanion. Nazgul presence could also affect their reproduction rate. Many problems are likely.
…Plenty of time to have plenty of horses for Nazgul bred, trained, and to have had foals bred and trained and for these foals to grow up and be bred and have foals.....and so on. By the time you get through a few generations of horses, you have a large herd, and they of course are going to be accustomed to their masters. If mearas were so easy to breed, how do you explain the fact that they were so rare in Rohan? Surely Rohan kings were also interested in getting as many mearas as possible!

I don't know that Gandalf was surprised so much as this was the signal that Sauron felt strong enough to do something, and of course since they were riding north, Gandalf had Frodo and the Ring to worry about. He did after all already know that Gollum had been in Mordor and been there sometime and that Sauron may have learned of the Ring--so he was more concerned and afraid and in haste than surprised. I think he was not surprised that Sauron made a move, but he was not expecting NAZGUL riding as a commando force to the Shire. At least they were not seen outside Dol Guldur and Mordor for a long time. Gandalf: "It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again."

Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgûl. Nazgûl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys. Good point, IMHO. Jockeys (as a rule) do not inspire supernatural fear in horses :eek: . I think a better analogy would be getting a cat accustomed to dogs. The crucial point would be to train a very young kitten. A grown-up cat will still be afraid of dogs whatever you do. So I believe the nazgul had to train very young colts themselves. I was not joking about bottle-feeding by nazgul :) :eek: . Later, perhaps, for an ordinary warhorse training, they could partly rely on underlings.

Its one thing to discuss things beyond what Tolkien wrote, it is another to rewrite what Tolkien wrote.
Please be fair, Forkbeard, where in all this thread was I rewriting what Tokien wrote?

The issue of speed suggests mearas. But the question of speed could also be a simple blunder by Tolkien, or it could be explained by sorcery. I do wonder if Tolkien thought of this: one factor not pointed out yet (I don't think) is that the nine can keep up with Glorfindel's horse in Book I, barely, but they do keep up.
Now who is trying to rewrite Tolkien? :) No, I have nothing against this argument, but I must respectfully point out that you permit yourself more then I did (in this thread at least).

WHo else do we see on black horses, other than the Mouth?
Please, here is the quote from LOTR describing the host of Minas Morgul And out of the gate an army came. All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light.

This is a very real possibility, that Sauron, even perhaps Morgoth, had captured some of the Mearas and perverted them to his purposes and to carry his servants. Morgoth could hardly predict the appearance of nazgul much less he could solve their problems with horses :D . As for "perversion", unlike Mouth's horse, the nazgul horses look normal. I believe it is more the question of training than perversion.

Butterbeer

05-16-2005, 03:58 PM

well great GIG guys!

Touche!

(... and i mean that!) ... :D

just for starters: to be clear i never personally suggested the Naz raided black horses themselves...

I STILL THINK its VERY UNCLEAR INDEED and EXTREMELY SKETCHY to make ANY assumptions that the black horses were Mearas...

and i'll be prepared to argue that to the hilt unless anyone has any convincing argument other then that the Naz thrashed their horses in pitiless urgency one time when we assume Gandalf on Shadowfax did not?
Gandalf may have rested, stopped at an INN, pulled up for a smoke etc: gone a different ruote, had bad weather, been suffering from diahorrea! : ANY NUMBER OF POSSIBLE CAUSES: i do not rate as historical or in any way realiable evidence what Gordis poses originally in the thread that they were Mearas because they were as fast on the basis that he posted earlier: even so as Gordis himself agrees they were rare: if so easy to breed the Kings of Horses: why then did not the Rohirrim the Horse masters with considerably MUCH more experience, history, culture, affinity, nature, nuture, love, respect, horse-based culture etc etc
have Mearas to the orderof Nine at any given time?

Sorry but it's rubbish: Good horses from good stock even with some Mearas blood stock in their genes, trained and nurtured in certain conditions etc , yes:

Mearas To Go (on tap: NO!)

OK they may beto some degree from, or long bred from percentage of Mearas stock, and Gordis is perfectly ok to posit the issue: but lets get this straight here and now: that is NO WAY EITHER A) proved or B) even begun to be uncontessted CANON

I find it odd how peoples arguments on both or sides are contradicting themselves!

Anyways GUYS: great fencing match! Mucho enjoying it: :)

*sits down peacefully on the side to watch the game unfold and sips his first try of the recommended NURN 2974 (or around there)* :D

(had a lot of other points but have forgotten them for ther mo' so shall sit it out for a while and take a breather and enjoy...)

PS: check out forkbeard's chapter on the LOTR discussion: it's where the Homies are at: so its a great cross thread 'happening' potential alignment thingy! ;)

Forkbeard

05-16-2005, 06:15 PM

I agree with you that Sauron WAS interested to provide nazgul with spare horses. Ys he was. The more the better. I only question the POSSIBILITY to get enough mearas to train. Probably nine in single generation were about the maximum he can physically get.

But you are still assuming that it is mearas we are speaking of. Many factors can explain the same amount of travel time for Gandalf on Shadofax as the Nazgul on their horses.

As for number of horses, mearas or otherwise: say he starts with 5 horses in 2951, 2 stallions, 3 mares. 3 mares produce 3 foals. In 2952, 3 mares are impregnated, 3 more foals. Repeat in 2953. 2954 the mares born in 2951 are ready to breed, and if you can steal or demand any more stallions or mares during this period, well all the better. So say of the 3, 2 were pregnant. That adds another 5 for 2954, and again in 2955. So over a five year period with an original 5 horses, one could breed them to be a herd of over 20. And that's assuming no influx of new horses by theft, by trade, purchase, or tribute.

Olmer has a very good point that mearas could be difficult to breed in captivity. Landscape could also matter: Mordor is certainly not Rohan or Rhovanion. Nazgul presence could also affect their reproduction rate. Many problems are likely.

A) still assuming the presence of mearas. B) what is captivity? There's that lake district Sauron has that looks rather good for horses. Is that captivity?

If mearas were so easy to breed, how do you explain the fact that they were so rare in Rohan?

Who said they were difficult to breed? Their rarity is best explained that the best horse, the mearas, was to carry the king, so they kept the numbers down for the prestige. After all if everyone had a mearas, it would hardly be special enough to carry the royal bum.

Surely Rohan kings were also interested in getting as many mearas as possible!
Whatever gives you that idea?

I think he was not surprised that Sauron made a move, but he was not expecting NAZGUL riding as a commando force to the Shire. At least they were not seen outside Dol Guldur and Mordor for a long time. Gandalf: "It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again."
No dispute that they were not seen outside those areas until 3017, but your original point was that Sauron wasn't prepared for the war and so the Nazgul likely had only horse each. But the fact that they HAD BEEN USED by Sauron since 2951 suggests that Sauron had plenty of time to prepare more than a single mount each for his most trusted servants.

Good point, IMHO. Jockeys (as a rule) do not inspire supernatural fear in horses :eek: . I think a better analogy would be getting a cat accustomed to dogs. The crucial point would be to train a very young kitten. A grown-up cat will still be afraid of dogs whatever you do. So I believe the nazgul had to train very young colts themselves. I was not joking about bottle-feeding by nazgul :) :eek: . Later, perhaps, for an ordinary warhorse training, they could partly rely on underlings.

Not so good a point. If the Nazgul are "spiritual" and can not be compared to jockeys, then they can not very well be compared to trainers either. It seems to me that you either have to allow them to be interacting with the natural world or keep them completely apart from the natural world. Indications are the former, and if the former, then its just as likely that they visited the paddocks frequently than that they did the training themselves.

Please be fair, Forkbeard, where in all this thread was I rewriting what Tokien wrote?
It was meant proverbially, not specifically.

Now who is trying to rewrite Tolkien? :) No, I have nothing against this argument, but I must respectfully point out that you permit yourself more then I did (in this thread at least).

Not really. You draw a single conclusion from the text, I'm saying that given the text as we have it, we have multiple conclusions to draw. We are diametrically opposed.

Please, here is the quote from LOTR describing the host of Minas Morgul
Operative words being CLAD in black, not were black. THe horses, like those who rode them, wore black.

Morgoth could hardly predict the appearance of nazgul much less he could solve their problems with horses :D . As for "perversion", unlike Mouth's horse, the nazgul horses look normal. I believe it is more the question of training than perversion.

So Morgoth had no one whom he needed a horse for? All his servants had other means of conveyance? And they were all cheerful chappies who didn't frighten horses?

As for "perversion", anything put to something other than its normal use is perverted. That's what it means. The fact that these horses bore their masters when all other creatures (normal ones anyway) quailed, then some perversion of nature is at work whether one of magic, or one of training.

Gordis

05-16-2005, 06:33 PM

Hi, Butterbeer!

Just a side note before I start to break your arguments :p . I am no man. I don't mean that I am a wraith, I am not yet that far gone into evilness :D , I am no man in the same way as Eowyn…So please use she, her etc when you refer to me. Gordis BTW has the same ending as Erendis, Artanis etc.

…unless anyone has any convincing argument other then that the Naz thrashed their horses in pitiless urgency one time when we assume Gandalf on Shadowfax did not?
Gandalf may have rested, stopped at an INN, pulled up for a smoke etc: gone a different ruote, had bad weather, been suffering from diahorrea! : ANY NUMBER OF POSSIBLE CAUSES: i do not rate as historical or in any way realiable evidence what Gordis poses originally in the thread that they were Mearas because they were as fast on the basis that he posted earlier:
Nay Butterbeer, Gandalf didn't stop at an Inn for a couple of drinks etc. He was really in a great hurry! Here are the quotes for you:
` "Then I must have a steed on land," I said, "and a steed surpassingly swift, for I have never had such need of haste before."….
Never before had any man mounted him, but I took him and I tamed him, and so speedily he bore me that I reached the Shire when Frodo was on the Barrow-downs, though I set out from Rohan only when he set out from Hobbiton.
'But fear grew in me as I rode. Ever as I came north I heard tidings of the Riders, and though I gained on them day by day, they were ever before me.
The nazgul, on the other hand, were not is such a hurry, they didn't thrash their horses in pitiless urgency, they even questioned people and explored the country on the way, see UT: Now the Lord of the Nazgûl divided his company into four pairs, and they rode separately, but he himself went ahead with the swiftest pair, Thus they passed west out of Rohan, and explored the desolation of Enedwaith, and came at last to Tharbad. Thence they rode through Minhiriath, and even though they were not yet assembled a rumour of dread spread about them, and the creatures of the wild hid themselves, and lonely men fled away. But some fugitives on the road they captured; and to the delight of the Captain two proved to be spies and servants of Saruman.

So IMHO it is a fact that the nazgul horses were outstanding horses, even if they were slower than Shadowfax.
Forkbeard was right to refer to the other race they had: that with Asfaloth: "The Riders behind were falling back: even their great steeds were no match in speed for the white elf-horse of Glorfindel." Of course Asphalot had to carry only a halfling, while the black horses had to carry tall armoured knights. And still they almost kept up.

Were they mearas? I believe it is very likely. Mearas were rare, but not that very rare: "It was upon Felaróf that Eorl rode to the Field of Celebrant; for that horse proved as long lived as Men, and so were his descendants. These were the mearas, who would bear no one but the King of the Mark or his sons, until the time of Shadowfax." You see the Kings of Mark and their sons rode mearas. So IMHO it were possible over the years to obtain some dark ones.

Shadowfax was unique, it is true "I took the best horse in his land, and I have never seen the like of him.'…And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world. The horses of the Nine cannot vie with him; tireless, swift as the flowing wind. Shadowfax they called him"

OK they may beto some degree from, or long bred from percentage of Mearas stock, and Gordis is perfectly ok to posit the issue: but lets get this straight here and now: that is NO WAY EITHER A) proved or B) even begun to be uncontessted CANON
And who said it were CANON? Unless anyone can post a quote calling nazgul horses "mearas" it is not. So feel free to contest it as much as you like!

Now what say you, Butterbeer?
Best,
Gordis

Butterbeer

05-16-2005, 06:35 PM

[QUOTE=Forkbeard]

Operative words being CLAD in black, not were black. THe horses, like those who rode them, wore black.

well i agree with that, that was one of the points i was going to make! It does not say all the horses were black: though we may, i feel, assume he liked black horses where possible

mind you i think it obvious that black was the vogue colour for both Morgoth and Sauron alike and they would be valued as such no matter how great or otherwise they were.

this is what we know from the Rohirrim: they took as many of the black horses as they could (note: the black horses! not Mearas specifically: not all that is black does not glitter: not all that are black is not gold! : not very good perhaps but to the point! :p )

Butterbeer

05-16-2005, 06:56 PM

Miss (or MRS?) Gordis: :p

Quote:Gordis
And who said it were CANON? Unless anyone can post a quote calling nazgul horses "mearas" it is not. So feel free to contest it as much as you like!

BB: I officially declare it Contested!

Now what say you, Butterbeer?
Best,
Gordis[/QUOTE]

well it seems to me even stranger: gandalf rushes off as if the very wings of mordor are on his back on the fastest steed of the age with all urgency and speed being his very essence and the Naz, dilly-dallying here there and everythere on a sight-seeing trip Via tharbad etc CAN STILL DO THE SAME DISTANCE IN A VERY CLOSE TIME????????? as specified as your reasion that they must be mearas in the first instance!

excuse me but something is very obviouslythen wrong here: and therefore it is proof positive we cannot take this as accurate historical evidence that the horses were close to or necessarily on a par with the mearas: i'm not saying they could not have been: just disputing the evidence given that they were!

Best
BB
:D

Gordis

05-17-2005, 08:07 AM

well it seems to me even stranger: gandalf rushes off as if the very wings of mordor are on his back on the fastest steed of the age with all urgency and speed being his very essence and the Naz, dilly-dallying here there and everythere on a sight-seeing trip Via tharbad etc CAN STILL DO THE SAME DISTANCE IN A VERY CLOSE TIME????????? as specified as your reasion that they must be mearas in the first instance!
excuse me but something is very obviouslythen wrong here: and therefore it is proof positive we cannot take this as accurate historical evidence that the horses were close to or necessarily on a par with the mearas: i'm not saying they could not have been: just disputing the evidence given that they were!

Well, the nazgul were on 2 months long sight-seeing trip in the vales of Anduin in summer. In September they were sent to the Shire and were told that speed not secrecy was important. So they did hurry, but perhaps not as much as Gandalf who was far behind. And they made it in good time, perhaps they took half a day more than Gandalf.
I feel you just hate the idea that nz horses may be mearas. :D

Gordis

05-17-2005, 08:19 AM

As for number of horses, mearas or otherwise: say he starts with 5 horses in 2951, 2 stallions, 3 mares. 3 mares produce 3 foals. In 2952, 3 mares are impregnated, 3 more foals. Repeat in 2953. 2954 the mares born in 2951 are ready to breed, and if you can steal or demand any more stallions or mares during this period, well all the better. So say of the 3, 2 were pregnant. That adds another 5 for 2954, and again in 2955. So over a five year period with an original 5 horses, one could breed them to be a herd of over 20. And that's assuming no influx of new horses by theft, by trade, purchase, or tribute.
Wonderful! At this rate we can soon have all Mordorian cavalry on Mearas! Gordis jumps happily and screeches from pure joy :D :D
Unfortunately, if we are speaking about mearas, than we must remember that they had the same lifespan as men (see the quote in my previous post), so the 3 year old mares will be hardly ready to breed. And how about foal mortality in Mordor conditions? And what if the horses after close acquaintance with the nazgul die? Or had only stillborn foals? And so on and so on - conjecture upon conjecture :p :).

B) what is captivity? There's that lake district Sauron has that looks rather good for horses. Is that captivity?
Yes, IMHO it is. I believe Nurnen is not that good for horses: "great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen". So no running free across wide plains or green grass. Another more or less relevant quote: : Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror" (of the Morgul Lord)
Their rarity is best explained that the best horse, the mearas, was to carry the king, so they kept the numbers down for the prestige. After all if everyone had a mearas, it would hardly be special enough to carry the royal bum.
So you say that Rohan kings would not want to have all their Riders on Mearas just because of silly pride? :eek: That seems a poor argument to me.
No dispute that they were not seen outside those areas until 3017, but your original point was that Sauron wasn't prepared for the war and so the Nazgul likely had only horse each. But the fact that they HAD BEEN USED by Sauron since 2951 suggests that Sauron had plenty of time to prepare more than a single mount each for his most trusted servants.
Yes I still believe that Sauron was not fully prepared for the war, he started earlier than he wanted. There are a few quotes to support this.
What had the nazgul been used for? Not as errand-boys for sure. Yes, Khamul+1 or 2 were transferred to Dol Guldur. One of them was a messenger circulating between DG and Mordor. This one may have had a spare steed. The rest remained in Minas Morgul.
And, yes, Sauron had time but probably he lacked the means.
Not so good a point. If the Nazgul are "spiritual" and can not be compared to jockeys, then they can not very well be compared to trainers either. It seems to me that you either have to allow them to be interacting with the natural world or keep them completely apart from the natural world. Indications are the former, and if the former, then its just as likely that they visited the paddocks frequently than that they did the training themselves. I am afraid you have missed my point entirely. I have never questioned the nazgul ability to interact with the physical world. The nazgul cannot be compared to jockeys not because they are "spiritual" and jockeys are "matherial" but because (unlike jockeys) the nazgul inspire supernatural fear to normal living creatures (geese, horses, dogs and men).
You draw a single conclusion from the text, I'm saying that given the text as we have it, we have multiple conclusions to draw. We are diametrically opposed... Diametrically, eh? I am aware of several possible conclusions. Let us look at them. In this case (speed of nazgul horses vs. Shadowfax) you suggest three:
1. the horses are mearas 2.blunder by Tolkien 3. sorcery.
My primary conclusion was "they were outstanding horses, possibly mearas".
I don't like No.2, sorry. I believe that there must be some constant singposts of the story so I never question the entries in the Tale of Years. I think nobody does, even Olmer with his challenging theories :) .
3. Sorcery? Seems unlikely to me. Of course, the Witch-King was a powerful sorcerer, but hardly surpassed Gandalf. Gandalf was a maia and a magician but still he had to use physical means - a swift horse - to get from Rohan to the Shire in a great hurry. Were sorcery helpful, he could have taken any horse and made it run as fast as Shadowfax.
So to me only one conclusion seems likely and I try to defend it.

Operative words being CLAD in black, not were black. THe horses, like those who rode them, wore black.You think they were white horses? :D BTW in the quote it is not said explicitly that the Witch-King's horse was black. But it was, as we know from other sources.
So Morgoth had no one whom he needed a horse for? All his servants had other means of conveyance? And they were all cheerful chappies who didn't frighten horses? . He had no nazgul for sure. Barlogs to my knowledge didn't ride horses :) .Orcs and trolls and dragons hardly did either :) . Sauron in fair form could be as neutral to horses as wizards. So who were those chappies who did frighten horses?
As for "perversion", anything put to something other than its normal use is perverted. That's what it means. The fact that these horses bore their masters when all other creatures (normal ones anyway) quailed, then some perversion of nature is at work whether one of magic, or one of training.
Then you can call lions and tigers working in a circus "perverted".

Butterbeer

05-17-2005, 03:40 PM

Well, the nazgul were on 2 months long sight-seeing trip in the vales of Anduin in summer. In September they were sent to the Shire and were told that speed not secrecy was important. So they did hurry, but perhaps not as much as Gandalf who was far behind. And they made it in good time, perhaps they took half a day more than Gandalf.
I feel you just hate the idea that nz horses may be mearas. :D

nah not at all: :D ( and i mean that)

they could well be Mearas or in part from mearas stock: i just didn't think the point sufficiently proved originally and then subsequently it went un-passed and un-pursued and therefore appeared to be taken as read that they therefore WERE Mearas: i just think the argument as panned out is not sufficiently proved one way or the other yet: to say un-equivocially or for mooters to asume they were seems to me to need pulling up and looking at:

to be frank i don't really care if they were or not: maybe fear drove them on? maybe they were exceptional horses indeed: but my thought is just this: IF gandalf on shadowfax rode to the hilt like the wind back to the North then they must have been, from what we know of shadowfax and his relation to other horses of his age, superb horses indeed.

I personally feel Tolkien just had to try the best he could to get the timelines in some sort of Sync: if shadowfax pushed himself to the limit then they were ALL kings of horses themselves: not merely Mearas but CHIEFTANS of the mearas if they (almost) matched him

now: one maybe, possibly, Two: well... ok just about within reason perhaps...

ALL nine?
well i'm no expert on genetics and stud breeding etc: if it was that easy i'd go into horse-racing

(and then later down the road sell my profitable investments to M glazer! :D )

best
BB
:)

Gordis

05-17-2005, 04:35 PM

Oh, Butterbeer, for once I agree with your POV!

Butterbeer

05-17-2005, 04:49 PM

;)

sssSSHHHHHH!

Hush now .... it'll be the end of debate in our times! :D

.... ;) which bit did you particularly agree with??? :p

Gordis

05-17-2005, 05:27 PM

;) which bit did you particularly agree with??? :pThis bit: " they could well be Mearas or in part from mearas stock: i just didn't think the point sufficiently proved originally and then subsequently it went un-passed and un-pursued and therefore appeared to be taken as read that they therefore WERE Mearas: i just think the argument as panned out is not sufficiently proved one way or the other yet: to say un-equivocially or for mooters to asume they were seems to me to need pulling up and looking at:
to be frank i don't really care if they were or not: maybe fear drove them on? maybe they were exceptional horses indeed: but my thought is just this: IF gandalf on shadowfax rode to the hilt like the wind back to the North then they must have been, from what we know of shadowfax and his relation to other horses of his age, superb horses indeed."

As for the rest: why do you think that ordinary mearas and the Chieftain of the mearas differ in speed that much?

And just a thought, what about Asfaloth? Was he a Mearas as well or came from an entirely different line?

Butterbeer

05-17-2005, 05:47 PM

Gordis

05-17-2005, 06:01 PM

well Tolkien says Shadowfax is the chieftan and he leaves all other horses for dead ... seems a reasonable premise: this whole idea throughout tolkien about royalty and Lineage: King or Lord xxx was taller it seemed or etc etc ...!
Exactly. The Lord of the horses leaves all ordinary horses for dead and IS swifter than his kin the ordinary mearas. :p

as for the elven horse: haven't a clue!Me neither. Probably we should check the Sil. As far as I remember the Noldor came from Valinor without horses (?). Then the elven horses came from ME. And what is the nobler horse line in ME than the descendents of Orome's steed? So the elven horses may be related to mearas.

Forkbeard

05-17-2005, 06:17 PM

Wonderful! At this rate we can soon have all Mordorian cavalry on Mearas! Gordis jumps happily and screeches from pure joy :D :D
Unfortunately, if we are speaking about mearas, than we must remember that they had the same lifespan as men (see the quote in my previous post), so the 3 year old mares will be hardly ready to breed. And how about foal mortality in Mordor conditions? And what if the horses after close acquaintance with the nazgul die? Or had only stillborn foals? And so on and so on - conjecture upon conjecture :p :).
Several points on this paragraph. First, like Numenoreans, the longevity of the mearas life span doesn't mean that their growth is likewise slowed. For example, Aragorn is born TA 2931, and goes out into the Wild at the age of 20 in 2951. His longer lifespan does not mean that he therefore spends more years as a toddler or teen. Same here for the mearas.
Second, while the issues you bring up are important, you also have to realize that Sauron wouldn't have started with a such a small herd either; increase the number of mares and stallions, and all conditions being average, your herd is going to grow rather quickly, not slowly. Third, your what ifs can easily be answered with more what ifs: what if every mare had twins that grw to adulthood? what if the presence of the nazgul was trained into them so that it spurred growth? what if there were black rohirrim and wide lands around nurnen?

Yes, IMHO it is. I believe Nurnen is not that good for horses: "great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen". So no running free across wide plains or green grass.

I think you're over reading it here. The presence of slave worked fields does not mean that there were no grasslands; all deep waters are dark. Remember that there are slave worked fields around Isengard yet the horses have no difficulty in running or trotting to or around it.

Another more or less pertinent quote: : Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror" (of the Morgul Lord)
This isn't pertinent at all.

So you say that Rohan kings would not want to have all their Riders on Mearas just because of silly pride? :eek: That seems a poor argument to me.
It isn't silly pride; its the pecking order. How do you know who is king? He's the one with the best chair in the house, with the best horse, the best armor, the best....read the literature Tolkien read, read some history, and then tell us that this is silly.

Yes I still believe that Sauron was not fully prepared for the war, he started earlier than he wanted. There are a few quotes to support this.

Yes, but look at what he had prepared, as I've noted in a previous post. He may have struck sooner than he wanted, but he hadn't been sitting on his arse playing cards with the 9 (10 handed poker?) As San and Frodo see in The Land of Shadow ..." that Sauron had long prepared for this war. Usually a person planning war makes sure that the generals and war leaders have access and can command. While he struck earlier than intended, he was still far more prepared than Gondor.

What had the nazgul been used for? Not as errand-boys for sure. Yes, Khamul+1 or 2 were transferred to Dol Guldur. One of them was a messenger circulating between DG and Mordor. This one may have had a spare steed. The rest remained in Minas Morgul.
And, yes, Sauron had time but probably he lacked the means.

So he has the means to amass armies with cavalry units, but not the means to produce horses to carry the nine? Seems questionable to me.

I am afraid you have missed my point entirely. I have never questioned the nazgul ability to interact with the physical world. The nazgul cannot be compared to jockeys not because they are "spiritual" and jockeys are "matherial" but because (unlike jockeys) the nazgul inspire supernatural fear to normal living creatures (geese, horses, dogs and men).

Then you missed TD's point. When you said "Good point" and agreed with him a few messages back, the part you quoted from TD's message was this: "Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgûl. Nazgûl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys." It seems to me that TD is in fact questioning that very notion. And you did say in reply to this: "Good Point!"

The fear factor (sorry, couldn't resist) has already been addressed. These horses were specifically bred for the Nazgul. We can speculate on how that might be accomplished, but to me that fact trumps concerns about fear.

I am aware of several possible conclusions. Let us look at them. In this case (speed of nazgul horses vs. Shadowfax) you suggest three:
1. the horses are mearas 2.blunder by Tolkien 3. sorcery.
My primary conclusion was "they were outstanding horses, possibly mearas".
I don't like No.2, sorry. I believe that there must be some constant singposts of the story so I never question the entries in the Tale of Years. I think nobody does, even Olmer with his challenging theories :) .

I think you've misunderstood the point. We know from the Letters and other sources that Tolkien spent time after the first edition correcting errors and fixing the chronology and such things. And even yet there are some things that need fixing: such as the statement that X is the oldest living thing in Middle Earth--well they can't both be the oldest living thing, for example. So here I'm merely suggesting that Tolkien didn't stop and consider that he had the 9 riding the same distance as Gandalf in the same amount of time especially since he was more interested in making sure the dates and events all meshed.

3. Sorcery? Seems unlikely to me. Of course, the Witch-King was a powerful sorcerer, but hardly surpassed Gandalf. Gandalf was a maia and a magician but still he had to use physical means - a swift horse - to get from Rohan to the Shire in a great hurry. Were sorcery helpful, he could have taken any horse and made it run as fast as Shadowfax.

Perhaps, but I doubt it, not because I question Gandalf's ability, but his heart. To do such a thing would be to change and twist the nature of the horse for his own purposes, and Sauron-like thing to do. I doubt very much Gandalf would do such a thing, whereas the WK (Phred) would do so in imitation of his master and in his haste.

You think they were white horses? :D

Doesn't matter: white, purple with pink polka dots, they were CLAD in black, the text does not say they were black.

BTW in the quote it is not said explicitly that the Witch-King's horse was black. But it was, as we know from other sources. Sure, which doesn't apply to the cavalry.

He had no nazgul for sure.Didn't say he did. Barlogs to my knowledge didn't ride horses :) .Orcs and trolls and dragons hardly did either :) . Its an interesting race called Men, or had you forgotten that Morgoth, like Sauron afterward, corrupted men to his service too? Sauron in fair form could be as neutral to horses as wizards. Supposition

Then you can call lions and tigers working in a circus "perverted".

Regardless of whether I would or not, certain animal rights groups have done just that, and zoos too.

Gordis

05-18-2005, 09:51 AM

Hi, Forkbeard, "diametrically opposed" to me! :D

Several points on this paragraph. First, like Numenoreans, the longevity of the mearas life span doesn't mean that their growth is likewise slowed. For example, Aragorn is born TA 2931, and goes out into the Wild at the age of 20 in 2951. His longer lifespan does not mean that he therefore spends more years as a toddler or teen. Same here for the mearas.
Second, while the issues you bring up are important, you also have to realize that Sauron wouldn't have started with a such a small herd either; increase the number of mares and stallions, and all conditions being average, your herd is going to grow rather quickly, not slowly. Third, your what ifs can easily be answered with more what ifs: what if every mare had twins that grw to adulthood? what if the presence of the nazgul was trained into them so that it spurred growth? what if there were black rohirrim and wide lands around nurnen?

Yes, the growth of both Numenoreans and elves is not slowed because of the greater lifespan. BUT the Numenorean kings (lifespan=400) had children when they were about 110-180 years old (UT), not when they were 20-40. Archedain chieftains (lifespan around 170-200) had children at about 60-70, as far as one can calculate. The elves had children… well not at 20-40 :) . The same may be true for horses.
Anyway, I believe it is wrong to extrapolate ordinary horse population dynamics to the noble mearas, especially to "perverted" Mearas. (as wrong as to extrapolate human population dynamics to Elves). Isn't it better to admit that it is totally unknown to us?

I leave out the question about Rohans king's "pecking order" but you have not convinced me at all that the Kings would not want all the Rohan horses to be Mearas, if it were possible.

Usually a person planning war makes sure that the generals and war leaders have access and can command. While he struck earlier than intended, he was still far more prepared than Gondor. Sauron had the Fellbeast program underway for the war, though it seems to me that even that program was far from complete. The beasts were still too vulnerable with their long necks and unprotected bodies. I believe he had to "work" on them a bit longer.

So he has the means to amass armies with cavalry units, but not the means to produce horses to carry the nine? Seems questionable to me. Yes, if practically any horse could be trained to carry a nazgul and no, if such horses were the rarest exception. We don't know that, that is all.

Then you missed TD's point. When you said "Good point" and agreed with him a few messages back, the part you quoted from TD's message was this: "Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgûl. Nazgûl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys." It seems to me that TD is in fact questioning that very notion. And you did say in reply to this: "Good Point!" .
I interpreted this as : "they were very different from other humans including jockeys as their presence in the spritual world -their dark fea - caused fear in animals"
Better we ask TD what he meant, but I doubt that TD could question nazgul ability to interact with horses in physical world"
What did you mean, Telcontar Dunedain?

The fear factor (sorry, couldn't resist) has already been addressed. These horses were specifically bred for the Nazgul. We can speculate on how that might be accomplished, but to me that fact trumps concerns about fear. So you believe the animals were genetically perverted so that they would not be afraid of the nazgul even at the first encounter? I believe more in the training of the young colts by nazgul.

So here I'm merely suggesting that Tolkien didn't stop and consider that he had the 9 riding the same distance as Gandalf in the same amount of time especially since he was more interested in making sure the dates and events all meshed.. There may be some blunders that Tolkien failed to correct but I don't think it was one of them:
1. Even in the drafts of the text describing Gandalf's ride from Rohan to the Shire Tolkien described the nazgul horses as very swift, but not as swift as Shadowfax."…and I name him Grayfax. Not even the Chief of the Nine could go with such tireless speed" The Treason of Isengard, chapter VI). So at least the WK horse was reputed for its speed. I have already posted similar quotes from LOTR.
2.According to Christofer Tolkien, the Hunt for the Ring in UT was written before the Tale of Years has been published. In UT the nazgul took three days, not four, from Isen to Sarn Ford, arriving there at night of 21-22. That was corrected in the Tale of Tears to nazgul reaching SF at evening 22. So Tolkien did think on these dates.
3. The dates given in the Tale of Years allow the nazgul horses to be up to 35 hours behind Shadowfax in the Isen-Sarn Ford race. Gandalf may have crossed the Isen in the evening of 24 and Sarn Ford in the morning of 28 (about 80 hours). Nazgul may have crossed the Isen in the morning of 18 and it is specified that the nazgul came to Sarn Ford by evening 22 (about 115 hours). So it corresponds well with the notion of nazgul horses being very swift, but not so swift as Shadowfax.

Its an interesting race called Men, or had you forgotten that Morgoth, like Sauron afterward, corrupted men to his service too? Nay, I have not forgotten men :rolleyes: . But evil men do not frighten horses and animals. Hitler walked the streets without dogs barking and geese screaming at him. A horse is not that interested in the views of his master and whether he worships Valar or Morgoth, provided he is kind to his horse. Nazgul frighten horses not because they are evil, but because they are supernaturally evil and no men anymore, but wraiths. Have you evidence that Morgoth has supernaturally corrupted any man in his service?

"Sauron in fair form could be as neutral to horses as wizards". Supposition. Forkbeard, I must respectfully point out that whenever someone writes "could be" and not "was" he is expressing a supposition.
But this supposition is well founded, IMO. Remember Annatar in Eregion. He could hardly pass for a good maia, faithful pupil of Aule, if geese screemed at him and horses and dogs blindly ran away, could he?

Re:"perverted". You may call circus lions whatever you like, I only wanted to say that the Mouth's horse looked /how do I word it now?/ MORE PERVERTED :eek: than the nazgul steeds.

Regards,
Gordis

Telcontar_Dunedain

05-18-2005, 11:25 AM

Me neither. Probably we should check the Sil. As far as I remember the Noldor came from Valinor without horses (?). Then the elven horses came from ME. And what is the nobler horse line in ME than the descendents of Orome's steed? So the elven horses may be related to mearas.
Actually it says (somewhere, I'm not sure where) that horses were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros as gifts.

I interpreted this as : "they were very different from other humans including jockeys as their presence in the spritual world -their dark fea - caused fear in animals"
Better we ask TD what he meant, but I doubt that TD could question nazgul ability to interact with horses in physical world"
What did you mean, Telcontar Dunedain?
I meant that the horses of the Nazgûl, because of their presence in the spiritual, not physical world. It says in UT that they (the Nazgûl) inspired fear into everything they passed. Jockeys, however are normal people, and thir presence is almost exacly the same as a trainers would be.

Gordis

05-18-2005, 01:04 PM

Thanks, TD, for clarification.
And YES, you are right about elven horses. I have found the quote:
To Fingon was assigned Dor-lómin, that lay to the west of the Mountains of Mithrim. But their chief fortress was at Eithel Sirion in the east of Ered Wethrin, whence they kept watch upon Ard-galen; and their cavalry rode upon that plain even to the shadow of Thangorodrim, for from few their horses had increased swiftly, and the grass of Ard-galen was rich and green. Of those horses many of the sires came from Valinor, and they were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros in atonement of his losses, for they had been carried by ship to Losgar.
So Asfaloth probably had valinorean origin. That proves BTW that not all good horses are mearas :) .

Butterbeer

05-18-2005, 04:43 PM

So Asfaloth probably had valinorean origin. That proves BTW that not all good horses are mearas :) .

You suggest Gordis that they were Naughty?

(just some light relief from the unexpected inquisition-style grilling!)

Knifemoustache i name you ...

Interesting posts Forkbeard - you do ...er.. seem a little anti-anything-Gordis says?

(course she's wrong about most things regarding theses horsies! ;) :p )

Forkbeard

05-19-2005, 12:37 PM

Hi, Forkbeard, "diametrically opposed" to me! :D

Yes, the growth of both Numenoreans and elves is not slowed because of the greater lifespan. BUT the Numenorean kings (lifespan=400) had children when they were about 110-180 years old (UT), not when they were 20-40. Archedain chieftains (lifespan around 170-200) had children at about 60-70, as far as one can calculate. The elves had children… well not at 20-40 :) .

But this is social custom, not biological function. They were CAPABLE of having children, but didn't.

The same may be true for horses.

Horses, even mearas, respond to nature's call, particularly when bred, and don't really have social mores to be concerned with.

Anyway, I believe it is wrong to extrapolate ordinary horse population dynamics to the noble mearas, especially to "perverted" Mearas.
Why? Because it disproves your theory? And this is circular, you have yet to establish that in reference to the Nazgul we are talking about mearas: that is, you have taken your conclusion and made it part of the argument--classic case of circular argument.

(as wrong as to extrapolate human population dynamics to Elves). Isn't it better to admit that it is totally unknown to us?

Isn't it better yet to admit that your argument that Sauron would have had only one horse per Nazgul is extremely unlikely?

I leave out the question about Rohans king's "pecking order" but you have not convinced me at all that the Kings would not want all the Rohan horses to be Mearas, if it were possible.

a) but you haven't left it out, you've instead said that it didn't exist
b) you've provided no evidence that the king wanted to have all the Rohirrim on mearas

What we do know, and we know only this, is that Eorl was the first to ride a mearas and that ever afterward a mearas bore the king or his sons, period.
Tradition and prestige are important in a warrior society like the Rohirrim, and that is very obvious in this case, I think, that only the descendants of Eorl ride a horse descended from Eorl's.

Sauron had the Fellbeast program underway for the war, though it seems to me that even that program was far from complete. The beasts were still too vulnerable with their long necks and unprotected bodies. I believe he had to "work" on them a bit longer.

All beasts are vulnerable; the most invulnerable are dragons and we already know they have their weaknesses too. Horses drown in rivers and can be shot too. Besides, like the Nazgul themselves, the fell beasts were designed for terror and to help the Nazgul spread their psychological warfare as broadly across the battlefield as possible, not for battle. Even in battle however they had their uses, but standing one on one against a woman with a sword was not one of them.

In conclusion, regardless of how finished or unfinished the "program" was, it makes no difference whatsoever to how many horses Sauron had bred to carry his Nazgul. Given the great preparations for war over more than a half century, it is likely that Sauron thought of more than one horse to carry his most important and most trusted servants.

Yes, if practically any horse could be trained to carry a nazgul and no, if such horses were the rarest exception. We don't know that, that is all.

So let me see if I have this correct: we can not entertain the idea that Sauron had more than one steed, mearas or not, for his most trusted servants because we don't know how rare such beasts were but we can entertain the idea that each Nazgul only had one horse because we don't know how rare such beasts are? Is that about the size of it?

Besides, Tolkien tells us that the horses carrying the Nazgul were specifically BRED, not trained, BRED to carry a Nazgul.

I interpreted this as : "they were very different from other humans including jockeys as their presence in the spritual world -their dark fea - caused fear in animals"
Better we ask TD what he meant, but I doubt that TD could question nazgul ability to interact with horses in physical world"
What did you mean, Telcontar Dunedain?

I'm not sure that this helps or that TD made it any clearer. In any case, I don't find the point particularly difficult to my position: the horses in question were BRED to carry the Nazgul, it doesn't take a Nazgul bottle feeding the foal and working hours upon hours for it to not be fearful.

So you believe the animals were genetically perverted so that they would not be afraid of the nazgul even at the first encounter?

No. I believe that Tolkien said that the horses were bred specifically to bear the Nazgul, their raison d'etre was to carry Nazgul. Whether Tolkien had in mind genetic engineering, socerty, something in the feed and water, or a Wose drum beat and blessing at conception I don't know; I do know that he conceived of the horses of the Nazgul as specifically bred (something done on purpose) to carry the Nazgul which suggests that Sauron had some way to overcome the fear that Nazgul normally caused in animals.

. There may be some blunders that Tolkien failed to correct but I don't think it was one of them:
1. Even in the drafts of the text describing Gandalf's ride from Rohan to the Shire Tolkien described the nazgul horses as very swift, but not as swift as Shadowfax."…and I name him Grayfax. Not even the Chief of the Nine could go with such tireless speed"

Thank you for proving my point. If even the Chief of the NIne could not go at such a pace, BUT IN POINT OF FACT ACCORDING TO THE TALE OF YEARS DID GO AT SUCH A PACE, it illustrates that Tolkien hadn't fully considered the implications in this instance.

2.According to Christofer Tolkien, the Hunt for the Ring in UT was written before the Tale of Years has been published. In UT the nazgul took three days, not four, from Isen to Sarn Ford, arriving there at night of 21-22. That was corrected in the Tale of Tears to nazgul reaching SF at evening 22. So Tolkien did think on these dates.

I can't find this, but I'll take your word for it. If he gave as detailed thought to the dates as you say, then why does he nowhere mention the fact that the Nazgul are riding mearas, it would seem to be a rather necessary point to explain the speed of the Nine.

3. The dates given in the Tale of Years allow the nazgul horses to be up to 35 hours behind Shadowfax in the Isen-Sarn Ford race. Gandalf may have crossed the Isen in the evening of 24 and Sarn Ford in the morning of 28 (about 80 hours). Nazgul may have crossed the Isen in the morning of 18 and it is specified that the nazgul came to Sarn Ford by evening 22 (about 115 hours). So it corresponds well with the notion of nazgul horses being very swift, but not so swift as Shadowfax.

Then you've just resolved the issue. 35 hours is a lot of hours to the sleepless, and we no longer need posit mearas as their steeds.

I will point out another aspect of distance and speed. According to UT, Gandalf traveled 800 miles from Thranduil to Frodo in 15 days. But in the tale of years it takes him 10 days to go from Bree to Isengard, less than 600 miles. In both cases he is in haste. Again, I'd say that he didn't consider the full implications.

There is also the fact that somehow the Nazgul are negatively affected by water and are stopped by water, yet at the same time cross the fords of two large rivers without pause or mishap. CT notes that even Tolkien felt this hard to sustain. But there it is, in the books staring us in the face.

Nay, I have not forgotten men :rolleyes: . But evil men do not frighten horses and animals.
That actually has not been my experience.

Forkbeard

05-19-2005, 12:39 PM

A horse is not that interested in the views of his master and whether he worships Valar or Morgoth, provided he is kind to his horse.
But we aren't talking about the Nazgul's political views or religion.

Nazgul frighten horses not because they are evil, but because they are supernaturally evil and no men anymore, but wraiths. Have you evidence that Morgoth has supernaturally corrupted any man in his service?
Perhaps not, but the point was in the beginning that Sauron's horses could be descended from horses that Morgoth used, in short horses that for generations had been in the service of evil and so therefore more welcoming to the presence of the Nazgul.

Forkbeard, I must respectfully point out that whenever someone writes "could be" and not "was" he is expressing a supposition.

Point taken.

But this supposition is well founded, IMO. Remember Annatar in Eregion. He could hardly pass for a good maia, faithful pupil of Aule, if geese screemed at him and horses and dogs blindly ran away, could he?

Assuming that elves kept geese and dogs.....and we actually don't have the reaction of animals to Sauron personally described anywhere do we?

Re:"perverted". You may call circus lions whatever you like, I only wanted to say that the Mouth's horse looked /how do I word it now?/ MORE PERVERTED :eek: than the nazgul steeds.

Here is my statement that started the whole "perversion" discussion:
"This is a very real possibility, that Sauron, even perhaps Morgoth, had captured some of the Mearas and perverted them to his purposes and to carry his servants. It is entirely possible that we are talking about a long term, age long program of Sauron's to provide horses for his troops, particularly his generals."

Forkbeard

05-19-2005, 12:41 PM

Interesting posts Forkbeard - you do ...er.. seem a little anti-anything-Gordis says?

(course she's wrong about most things regarding theses horsies! ;) :p )
Nope, just those horsies.

And it could be turned around....Gordis seems a little anti-anything-Forkbeard says..;) I know she's not though

Butterbeer

05-19-2005, 06:44 PM

well i must say Forkbeard you argue your case both intelligently and with incisiveness.

I think Gordis has, to a degree, been drawn-in by the cut and thrust of this debate beyond perhaps her original position? (which i understood to be a loose supposition in origin) but either way respect to the pair of you for the duel! : i do suspect in general Gordis is now attempting to defend a pretty shaky position, inspired more than anything by the quality - and thereby, the challenge - of the debate than her original starting point!

Partly though this is why i have a lot of respect for Gordis:

a) the posing and genuine desire to examine new ideas and hypothetical questions

b) the ability and intelligence and knowledge to debate them

c) But mainly (and personally) gordis's excellent sense of humour and skill at decriptive writing! :D

So: (couldn't resist :D ) what do you think on the IF (hypothetical) question of the WK and if he mastered the One ring debate?

Best to both protagonists,
BB
:)

CrazySquirrel

05-20-2005, 10:44 AM

I am new to this thread and actually to this forum so dont kill me outright.
I dont understand why the horsies cannot be mearas? I think Gordi proved it allright.
And I think Forkbeard could use more sense of humour...

Pytt

05-20-2005, 12:41 PM

Yeah, I neither see way the horses can't be mearas.. I think Gordis proved it with that speedcalculation.

Lotesse

05-20-2005, 03:00 PM

Word!! Been following this debate for a couple days and now it seems the shelling has stopped, I gotta echo the ops of you two above and say same: why CAN'T the Nazgul's horses be mearas? What's the big deal? ;)

Gordis

05-20-2005, 06:47 PM

Yes, Lotesse is right, now the shelling has stopped :D , and I want to explain why.

I was starting to write a fourth or fifth reply to Mr. Forkbeard, but then I had to stop as I felt incredibly bored and what is worse felt that any sense of humor I might have possessed was leaving me :rolleyes: . So I decided to stop it.

Thanks, Butterbeer, for your compliments. :)
I thank Crazy Squirrel, Pitt and Lotesse for support (Valar know I needed it here!)

I think Gordis has, to a degree, been drawn-in by the cut and thrust of this debate beyond perhaps her original position? (which i understood to be a loose supposition in origin) but either way respect to the pair of you for the duel! : i do suspect in general Gordis is now attempting to defend a pretty shaky position, inspired more than anything by the quality - and thereby, the challenge - of the debate than her original starting point!
You are right that my POV was a loose supposition in origin: I have made a connection between the number of dead horses found after the flood (8) and the number of horses seen afterwards (1) and explored a possibility of it NOT being a coincidence. But I disagree that I attempted to defend a "shaky" position about horses being mearas. Or at least to be as swift as mearas.

As in "the cut and thrust of this debate" my POV has become somewhat obscured I decided to summarize it again below:

My POV

1. Nazgul horses are very swift

a.Tolkien has not made a blunder in the Tale of Years. Both the Nazgul and Shadowfax took roughly 4 days (min 74, max 118 hours for Gandalf; min 92 max 118 for the nazgul) from the Fords of Isen to the Sarn Ford.

b. In another 2-days race Bree - Weathertop the same participants have shown similar results. And in this case the results could be assessed with more precision
"So I stayed in Bree that night, wondering much what had become of the Riders; for only of two had there yet been any news in Bree, it seemed. But in the night we heard more. Five at least came from the west, and they threw down the gates and passed through Bree like a howling wind; and the Bree-folk are still shivering and expecting the end of the world. I got up before dawn and went after them...
I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree-and they were there before me"
Nazgul: passed Bree at night
Gandalf left Bree at first light
Both reached Weathertop on the evening of the second day the nazgul before Gandalf
So Nazgul: +- 48 hours
Gandalf +- 42 hours

c.That estimation corresponds to evidence, supported by several quotes, that Tolkien believed Nazgul horses to be very swift but not so swift as Shadowfax.

2. Nazgul horses are likely to be Mearas, as in Rohan there were

a. ordinary horses
b. Mearas (descended from Felarof horse of Eorl). Mearas were very rare, only Rohan king's line had the right to ride them.
c. Shadowfax - the Lord of horses, a special case " And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world".

The Lord of the horses leaves all ordinary horses for dead and IS swifter than his kin the ordinary mearas. Seems convincing to me.

However, there is a possibility that they come from entirely different bloodline (i.e. Valinorean elven horses or some other) but it seems less likely.

That's about the size of it.
Gordis

Telcontar_Dunedain

05-21-2005, 02:18 PM

I agree (for once ;)) with you on all points, gordis.
It also brings up the question, Would the Valinorean horses be swifter than Mearas?

Last Child of Ungoliant

05-21-2005, 03:16 PM

was it not said somewhere that an ancient sire of the line of mearas was one stallion of orome's? which, in my humble reasoning, make the elven horses from the valinorean strain and the mearas akin to each other, would it not?

Gordis

05-21-2005, 04:45 PM

I agree (for once ;)) with you on all points, gordis. It also brings up the question, Would the Valinorean horses be swifter than Mearas?
Thank you, TD! :)
Perhaps, but how could we know?
was it not said somewhere that an ancient sire of the line of mearas was one stallion of orome's? which, in my humble reasoning, make the elven horses from the valinorean strain and the mearas akin to each other, would it not?
Yes, you are right. At least it was a common belief of the rohirrim.
But, anyway, the elven horses and mearas would be distant relatives, two far diverged lines. Asfaloth BTW could be descended from the horse Glorfindel has brought with him from Valinor in the 2nd age. (If he brought one with him of course).

Telcontar_Dunedain

05-21-2005, 05:06 PM

We could look at their speed in relation to the Nazgûl's. If they Nazgûl's horses were Mearas, then Valinorean horses would be quicker. That is unless Asfolath was the chief. The Nazgûl could just about keep up with Asfolath, but couldn't catch him. According to your 'timelines' Gordis, Shadowfax was slightly but noticably quicker than the Nazgûl, but they couldn't keep up with him, quite aswell as they could with Asfolath. From this I would draw the conclusion that Valinorean horse's were quicker, unless Asfolath was their 'king'.

Gordis

05-21-2005, 06:01 PM

Uhhh... I am confused :confused: :confused:

mithrand1r

05-21-2005, 11:21 PM

Uhhh... I am confused :confused: :confused:

I think Telcontar_Dunedain (TD) is extending the line of reasoning (based on timelines) that was used to determine something (I am not sure anymore ;)) about the family lines of the horses. (I think he is referencing "Flight to the Ford".

I am not sure if I buy what is being stated, but I think the reasoning is similar to your previous argument.

My POV

1. Nazgul horses are very swift

a.Tolkien has not made a blunder in the Tale of Years. Both the Nazgul and Shadowfax took roughly 4 days (min 74, max 118 hours for Gandalf; min 92 max 118 for the nazgul) from the Fords of Isen to the Sarn Ford.

b. In another 2-days race Bree - Weathertop the same participants have shown similar results. And in this case the results could be assessed with more precision
Quote:
"So I stayed in Bree that night, wondering much what had become of the Riders; for only of two had there yet been any news in Bree, it seemed. But in the night we heard more. Five at least came from the west, and they threw down the gates and passed through Bree like a howling wind; and the Bree-folk are still shivering and expecting the end of the world. I got up before dawn and went after them...
I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree-and they were there before me"

Nazgul: passed Bree at night
Gandalf left Bree at first light
Both reached Weathertop on the evening of the second day the nazgul before Gandalf
So Nazgul: +- 48 hours
Gandalf +- 42 hours

c.That estimation corresponds to evidence, supported by several quotes, that Tolkien believed Nazgul horses to be very swift but not so swift as Shadowfax.

2. Nazgul horses are likely to be Mearas, as in Rohan there were

a. ordinary horses
b. Mearas (descended from Felarof horse of Eorl). Mearas were very rare, only Rohan king's line had the right to ride them.
c. Shadowfax - the Lord of horses, a special case " And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world".

The Lord of the horses leaves all ordinary horses for dead and IS swifter than his kin the ordinary mearas. Seems convincing to me.

However, there is a possibility that they come from entirely different bloodline (i.e. Valinorean elven horses or some other) but it seems less likely.

That's about the size of it.
Gordis

Telcontar_Dunedain

05-22-2005, 04:41 AM

Mithrand1r is right. I was trying to determine wether Mereas or Valionorean horses were quicker.

Gordis

05-22-2005, 03:19 PM

Mithrand1r is right. I was trying to determine wether Mereas or Valionorean horses were quicker.
Sorry TD, it was well past midnight so I was not at my best. Thanks Mithrand1r!

Yes, sure!
Shadowfax >Asfaloth>nazg horses
If Asfaloth is the Chief of elven horses: Shadowfax >Asfaloth>nazg horses>=elven horses

CrazySquirrel

05-26-2005, 11:12 AM

Sorry guys I got lost in this discussion...

If we return to the original post:
Why do you think it was the Witch king who got safely out of the river along with his horse and not another nazgul?

Gordis

05-27-2005, 02:50 PM

Why do you think it was the Witch king who got safely out of the river along with his horse and not another nazgul?
Tolkien wrote that the Witch-King was the most powerful in all ways of the Nine. He was NOT afraid of water (UT).
Probably the three Numenoreans could swim better then the rest. So it makes sense that the WK got out of the river safely.

As for the horse, it may be not his horse that was saved. Or he could have had the best horse of all the Nine. Anyway, I believe it was the WK that returned to Mordor ahead of the others.

Gordis

09-06-2006, 08:01 PM

It seems I was right after all. :)

Now I am a happy owner of "Tolkien Reader's companion by Hammond and Scull and there is a new Tolkien's quote about the only horse surviving the flood.
This quote is from the same writings as the "Hunt for the Ring" in UT, dated around 1954.

p. 262-3
In this matter Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) says:

Only the bodies of 8 horses were discovered; but also the raiment of the Captain. It is probable that the Captain took the one horse that remained (he may have had strength to withdraw it from the flood) and unclad, naked, invisible, rode as swift as he could back to Mordor. At swiftest he could not accomplish that (for his horse at least would need some food and rest, though he needed none) ere November had passed. The wrath and fear of Sauron then may be guessed; yet if there was any in the world in whom he trusted it was the Lord of Angmar; and if his wrath were lessened by perceiving that his great servant had defeated by ill chance (and the craft of the Wise) rather than by faults of his own, his fear would be the more – seeing what power was yet in his Enemies, and how sharply fortune favoured them at each turn when all seemed lost. Help no doubt was sent out to the other Ringwraiths as they made their way back, and they were bidden to remain secret again. It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (S. likely aided by Angmar) bethought him of the winged mounts; and yet withheld them, until things became almost desperate and he was forced to launch his war in haste.

Bravo, Witch-King!

The isn't that sweet: "if there was any in the world in whom (Sauron) trusted it was the Lord of Angmar"? :p ;)

Forkbeard

09-07-2006, 04:30 PM

It seems I was right after all. :)

Now I am a happy owner of "Tolkien Reader's companion by Hammond and Scull and there is a new Tolkien's quote about the only horse surviving the flood.
This quote is from the same writings as the "Hunt for the Ring" in UT, dated around 1954.

Bravo, Witch-King!

The isn't that sweet: "if there was any in the world in whom (Sauron) trusted it was the Lord of Angmar"? :p ;)

"Right" about what? In the original post with which you started this thread you stated in part that one of the horses of the 9 could have survived the ruin at the Ford, and that one of the 9, perhaps the W-K himself, could have ridden that horse back to Mordor. So far so good, no one disputed that statement as a possibility. What was debated was your suggestion immediately following that this was the same steed that the W-K rode into battle at Minas Tirith. The quote you provide certainly does not demonstrate the latter. You also claimed that W-K after arriving in Mordor helped the other 8 return on his winged mount, which again, while the quote says that help was sent to them, says nothing about it being the W-K or winged mounts.

So yes, your uncontested belief that one of the Nazgul rode the surviving horse from the ruin of the Fords to Mordor is "right" in the sense that at some point Tolkien himself entertained the idea (but note that even CT didn't include it in UT, hard in my mind to put a lot of weight on it as if it were "canon" to borrow Butterbeer's term), an idea with which no one found fault.

FB

Butterbeer

09-07-2006, 05:16 PM

borrow it all you like ...but tis hardly my term ... ;)

nice quote...but at best it seems a 'yes and no' kind of gig...

as the man says ..probably. :p :)

course' what Bath-time Sauron thinks and the Lord of Angmar think are entirely ( posit-ably) and potentially entirely different things ;)

you'll note ..also no proof of being mearas neither :D

(Big hello to FB and Gor though :) )

Best, BB

jammi567

09-07-2006, 05:36 PM

Forkbeard and Butterbeer have got good points, as in it doesn't answer whether a) the horses were mearas and b) whether that later horse was the same one.

Butterbeer

09-07-2006, 05:44 PM

well said Mr jams!

so...where do you stand on the IF The witch king took and mastered the ONE ring (the ring to rule all others) with sufficient time ere Sauron could effectively reply .... could he have overthrown him?

jammi567

09-08-2006, 12:00 PM

Gordis

09-09-2006, 11:07 AM

Well I am glad that at least part of what I said was proven true. :)
The rest was neither confirmed, nor proved wrong.

Even so, Forkbeard hastened to declare the source non-canonic :p .

Butterbeer

09-09-2006, 04:18 PM

it's the beard part ... ;)

Butterbeer

09-09-2006, 04:25 PM

That isn't related to the matter at hand, but anyway. I don't think so because although he was a wraith, he still had Man desires, strengths and weaknesses. In fact, i do't think anyone below a maiar could, because of the amount of Sauron's will in the ring.

ahhh...so - you think this independent "power" is non-transferable, despite the obvious and undeniable concerns of Sauron or the lustful scheming of Saruman (who of all the miar had studied these things).

also- why then fear Aragorn? ... as Miar Gandalf clearly conjectures is the likely result of Sau's haste and concern due to Arargorn revealing himself (in other guise) as the living heir with the re-forged sword via the Palantir ...after, note you, as rightful heir, forcibly mastering the stone directly against Sauron's will and control?

You will need better arguments than a vague, i think not, Mr jams! :) ;)

best, BB

jammi567

09-09-2006, 04:57 PM

Well, it's like a drug, isn't it. If you have the chance to tke it, and you say no, then that's it,it won't affect you again.

Exactly. He was Isilador's heir. The one who had defeated him before. Of course he's going to be a bit worried.

And looking back at your post, no, i don't think the Witch-king could overthrow him with time, with the Ring. He would become it's slave.

Butterbeer

09-09-2006, 07:02 PM

how can the Master thus become the slave?

The issue posited Mr Jams was not would the ring master the Lord of Angmar?

... but IF the Witch King mastered the ring, would he then overthrow Sauron?

... bearing in mind as master of all the rings he controls them all and any as are foolish enough to then wield them.

and sauron without rings?

best, BB :)

jammi567

09-09-2006, 07:09 PM

Maybe. What do you think Mr BB?

Alcuin

09-09-2006, 07:33 PM

Tolkien says in Unfinished Tales that the Nazgûl had no will in the matter of the Ring, and that had any of them, even the Witch-king, obtained the Ring, he would have immediately returned with it to Sauron.

To go one step further, in a hypothetical discussion of what would have happened if Gollum had not fallen into the molten lava with the One Ring, but Frodo had defeated him and retained the Ring (see Letter 246), Tolkien says that Sauron would have sent the Ringwraiths. They would have been “in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring,” and pretending to obey Frodo as the new Ring Lord, cut off all his means of escape or destroying the Ring until Sauron himself arrived at Orodruin.

Butterbeer

09-09-2006, 08:04 PM

seems a bit of a flimsy source Alcuin to say the least ... :p ;)

but the point is, were the lord of the Nazgul to attain the ring and pop it on, the being a slave with no will is no longer valid ... obviously not an angle old JRR ever contemplated, to be sure, and since he is no longer here to (no doubt agree with me :D ;) ) ..it is there for examining... more because it is in this examining that we flesh out our understanding of the rings of power, the balance of Middle earth and the realms of the Elves and understand the more clearly the history of middle earth.

best, BB

CAB

09-11-2006, 09:00 AM

but the point is, were the lord of the Nazgul to attain the ring and pop it on, the being a slave with no will is no longer valid
I have to disagree with you here Mr. BB, sir. Simply taking the Ring and putting it on isn’t enough. If it was, Sauron would never have sent such a powerful servant to capture it. Mastery of the Ring clearly was something that didn’t happen instantaneously.

‘Also we could not learn how to wield the full power all in a day.’ Gandalf referring to the One Ring -The Return of the KingYou will also remember that Sauron was aware the instant that Frodo claimed the Ring for his own. If the Witch King ever tried to use the One, Sauron could immediately use the Witch King’s Nazgul ring (which Sauron held) to take full control of him. If it was necessary, Sauron could even destroy him by destroying his Nazgul ring.

So, I don’t think it is possible that the Witch King could ever master the One Ring as things stood late in the Third Age. Maybe another way to look at the question is what would have happened if he had obtained the Ring early in the Third Age, before Sauron had returned and taken his own Nazgul ring.

Gordis

09-11-2006, 10:00 AM

Glad you are back, CAB. :)

I fully agree with what you said.

Maybe another way to look at the question is what would have happened if he had obtained the Ring early in the Third Age, before Sauron had returned and taken his own Nazgul ring.

I think it is the only possible way to put this question if we really want something to discuss.

I think, with his Ring and in the absence of Sauron (or while the Necromaster was still quite weak), the Witch-King of Angmar would have made a splendid Dark Lord.

jammi567

09-11-2006, 12:49 PM

He already was a mini dark lord then. Distroying a whole state in a few years, for example.

Gordis

09-11-2006, 02:06 PM

He already was a mini dark lord then. Distroying a whole state in a few years, for example.
it took him about 600 years in fact :)
And then the Arnorians did contribute a lot. :p

jammi567

09-11-2006, 03:25 PM

Yeah, but considering that he didn't havea massive army, and (i haven't read the story in a while, so correct me if i'm wrong) managed to do it politically. He was just in the background, gently pushing things along.

Gordis

09-11-2006, 03:45 PM

Yhe Witch-King was in the background since 1300. But things in Arnor have deteriorated before that: Arnor split into 3 petty kingdoms around TA 900 -IIRC- and that fought between themselves ever since. I don't think the Witch-King could be blamed for that.
Then the WK took over Rhudaur (yes, mostly politically, not by open force), then attacked and destroyed Cardolan in open war (1409) and almost defeated Arthedain. Only Elves from Imladris and Lindon saved the Arnorians then.

Later there was the Plague (1636). I don't think it was the WK's doing, but he used the Plague for his ends and secured Tyrn Gorthad (Barrow-Downs) sending the Wights there.

And finally Angmar attacked Arthedain in 1974. Fornost was taken, the King perished. That was the end of Arnor. Gondor and the Elves defeated Angmar the next year, but Arnor couldn't rise again.

Landroval

09-11-2006, 04:00 PM

Gordis

09-11-2006, 04:35 PM

The three kingdoms weren't at war "ever since". They all would have united under Argeleb, if it weren't for the evil men of that bastard witch-king, who overtook Rhudaur. In the war with Angmar, Cardolan and Arthedain were united.
Argeleb finally grabbed Cardolan back, but only because no direct descendants of Elendil were left there to contest his claim. Not that it was for long though - soon there were only Barrow wights left on the ruins of once proud Cardolan :evil:

Butterbeer

09-11-2006, 04:50 PM

I have to disagree with you here Mr. BB, sir. Simply taking the Ring and putting it on isn’t enough. If it was, Sauron would never have sent such a powerful servant to capture it. Mastery of the Ring clearly was something that didn’t happen instantaneously.

You will also remember that Sauron was aware the instant that Frodo claimed the Ring for his own. If the Witch King ever tried to use the One, Sauron could immediately use the Witch King’s Nazgul ring (which Sauron held) to take full control of him. If it was necessary, Sauron could even destroy him by destroying his Nazgul ring.

So, I don’t think it is possible that the Witch King could ever master the One Ring as things stood late in the Third Age. Maybe another way to look at the question is what would have happened if he had obtained the Ring early in the Third Age, before Sauron had returned and taken his own Nazgul ring.

I have to disagree with you here Mr. BB, sir. Simply taking the Ring and putting it on isn’t enough. If it was, Sauron would never have sent such a powerful servant to capture it. Mastery of the Ring clearly was something that didn’t happen instantaneously.

well, i quite agree, it needed indeed time, a will of adamant, desire for power and skill ...all of which the Lord of the Nazgul had, the great question here to my mind, is did he have the time?

who else does he, (Sauron) in panic send? Into the North with sufficient power and ring sensing ability? He has very little serious choice in this quest... but this is largely immaterial anyway ..we know JRR had him as loyal, at least from Sauron's perspective ... this is of course a hypothetical - but then, even were it not, who else could he send, realistically?

and if it was picked up near Rivendell, say - he would have time .... some time anyway ...

You will also remember that Sauron was aware the instant that Frodo claimed the Ring for his own. If the Witch King ever tried to use the One, Sauron could immediately use the Witch King’s Nazgul ring (which Sauron held) to take full control of him. If it was necessary, Sauron could even destroy him by destroying his Nazgul ring.

aye, well here's the interesting broth of the stew so to speak ...

Many, many reasons here that potentially make Sauron impotent -

firstly, even without full or even partial mastery of the one, i doubt Sauron could force the Witch King, wielding the one (even without full mastery) to suucumb to his will, not totally and not for long ... it is a long way on horse back to the South - also i deem him (lord of Angmar) both highly skilled in challenging and ...slowly, day by day beginning to read Sauron's mind and at having the mind and will both in force, experience and by genetic right to thus challenge his (Sauron's) will - at best for sau it would be a full on full-time epic struggle - he can forget his armies and strategies meanwhile ...

Secondly - Destroy his Most fearsome weapon and captain?

but even if ... assume he does and can -

one: he loses a powerful ring, Chief Nazgul and captain and an important source of power - in all ways weakening himself

Two: if he does and succeeds? The ring falls bodiless onto the ground in the far north - lost ..... lost again ....

no telling who may find it and take it, as he fears to Rivendell or to Lorien etc ... forgive me, but this does not sound like Sauron

ever he fears - fears and lusts ....

Imagine any force he (sau) sent north not commanded personally by himself meeting the Lord of the Nazgul, they would be on his control in seconds .... now imagine meeting the Lord of the Nazgul wielding to any degree at all the One ring .... to send any force north without risking coming himself would be to hasten his own downfall.

hectorberlioz

09-11-2006, 05:23 PM

jammi567

09-11-2006, 05:29 PM

Yhe Witch-King was in the background since 1300. But things in Arnor have deteriorated before that: Arnor split into 3 petty kingdoms around TA 900 -IIRC- and that fought between themselves ever since. I don't think the Witch-King could be blamed for that.
Then the WK took over Rhudaur (yes, mostly politically, not by open force), then attacked and destroyed Cardolan in open war (1409) and almost defeated Arthedain. Only Elves from Imladris and Lindon saved the Arnorians then.

Of course, to total contrast to Sauron, who can't do anything without a few Orc waiting in te background, in case the slightest thing goes wrong...

CAB

09-11-2006, 06:29 PM

who else does he, (Sauron) in panic send? Into the North with sufficient power and ring sensing ability? He has very little serious choice in this quest... but this is largely immaterial anyway ..we know JRR had him as loyal, at least from Sauron's perspective ... this is of course a hypothetical - but then, even were it not, who else could he send, realistically?
Yes, it seems that Sauron was panicked, but he must have had other options about who he could send to capture the Ring.

‘At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths...’ -Unfinished Tales

firstly, even without full or even partial mastery of the one, I doubt Sauron could force the Witch King, wielding the one (even without full mastery) to suucumb to his will, not totally and not for long ... it is a long way on horse back to the South
I agree with you here, but I’m not sure how important this point is. It is the threat of control that matters. It only takes moments of control to force the Witch King to give the Ring to another Nazgul, or to force him to throw himself into a river, etc. I believe that the famed Nazgul loyalty is due almost entirely to this threat (and also the threat of annihilation due to having the Nazgul rings destroyed) rather than actual, constant mental control.

- also I deem him (lord of Angmar) both highly skilled in challenging and ...slowly, day by day beginning to read Sauron's mind and at having the mind and will both in force, experience and by genetic right to thus challenge his (Sauron's) will
I could be wrong, but I don’t think mere possession of the Ring would lead to mastery. It seems more likely to be an active learning process, which may very well first require claiming the Ring (as Frodo did), an act which could not go unnoticed by Saruon.

Secondly - Destroy his Most fearsome weapon and captain?

but even if ... assume he does and can -

one: he loses a powerful ring, Chief Nazgul and captain and an important source of power - in all ways weakening himself

Two: if he does and succeeds? The ring falls bodiless onto the ground in the far north - lost ..... lost again ....
Considering the alternative, I don’t think Sauron would hesitate to destroy the Witch King. Sauron didn’t need the Witch King or the power provided by his ring to rule Middle Earth (although I’m sure they both would have helped). Also, the Ring wouldn’t necessarily be lost. Weren’t there eight other Nazgul nearby?

I think, with his Ring and in the absence of Sauron (or while the Necromaster was still quite weak), the Witch-King of Angmar would have made a splendid Dark Lord.
Gordis, I am going to have to disagree with you also. There may be contradicting evidence somewhere, but I don’t think that the Ring provided it’s wearer with any great “military” type strength (at least not directly). The Ring’s purpose was to control the other ringbearers. So, aside from providing control over the other Nazgul, what would the Ring do for the Witch King? The Elvish ringbearers would certainly remove their rings, as they did before, and the Dwarves were pretty much unaffected. I think that if the Witch King obtained and claimed the One Ring early in the Third Age, the Elves (not wanting to lose the ability to use their own rings) would have united (and would have dragged the Dunedain along) to defeat him. Anyway, that’s how I see things.

I think that the only reason that Sauron was so desperate to regain the Ring was to avoid be controlled by someone else (as he controlled the Nazgul by holding their rings). As long as the Ring existed, his power wasn’t diminished, so he didn’t really need it for anything except maybe to maintain control of the Nazgul while allowing them to hold their own rings. It is interesting to wonder, if the Witch King had managed to master the Ring and stay “alive”, would he have been able to control Sauron after he returned later in the Third Age? It seems like there is a letter, though, that states that if someone mastered the Ring then Sauron would be unable to reform himself. I can’t recall.

Alcuin

09-11-2006, 07:20 PM

In two versions of “The Hunt for the Ring” in Unfinished Tales, the author of the Tale says that none of the Ringwraiths would have taken the One Ring for his own. First he saysAt length [Sauron] resolved that no others would serve him in this case [i.e., finding and retrieving the Ring] but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held. Then he writes, [The Ringwraiths] were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master.The author, God rest his soul, seems pretty determined that the Witch-king would not claim the One Ring for himself, but he would return it. Whether that is because Sauron had recovered the Nine Rings and so controlled the Nazgûl through them (which might be inferred from these two passages) is a matter of debate; but it seems to me that whether any of the Nazgûl, even and specifically the Witch-king, had gotten the One Ring, he would have done exactly what the author said he would do: return it to Sauron.

From Bored of the Rings (Beard and Kenney, National Lampoon),
This ring, no other, is made by the elves,
Who’d pawn their own mother to grab it themselves.
Ruler of creeper, mortal, and scallop,
This is the sleeper that packs quite a wallop.
The Power almighty rests in this Lone Ring.
The Power, alrighty, for doing your Own Thing.
If broken or busted, it cannot be remade.
If found, send to Sorhed (the postage is prepaid).

jammi567

09-12-2006, 12:18 PM

They may be totally controled, but it doesn't stop them making mistakes (first book of 'Fellowship' anyone).

Alcuin

09-12-2006, 02:02 PM

They may be totally controled, but it doesn't stop them making mistakes (first book of 'Fellowship' anyone).You’re right: they can make mistakes. They’re still Men, even if they’re under an evil enchantment, and people make mistakes.

I don’t think the Nazgûl were “totally controlled” by Sauron. To say that they “had no will but [Sauron’s] own” or that “they were quite incapable of acting against his will” does not imply that they were automatons, that they were happy or contented about their situations, or that they were incapable of making decisions on their own or mistakes of their own.

It does mean that if Sauron commands them to do something, they cannot refuse or subvert his command. They can be defeated, so that they are forced to retreat without accomplishing his mission, as they were at the Ford of Bruinen; and they can become worried or concerned for their own safety: in Tolkien’s previously unpublished notes, the Witch-king is revealed in Reader’s Companion (http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Rings-Reader-Companion/dp/0618642676/sr=8-9/qid=1158083257/ref=sr_1_9/103-9011554-0305455?ie=UTF8&s=books) to be concerned for his own safety when pursuing Frodo and his companions across Eriador. (He mistakenly believes Frodo destroyed the barrow-wight, and he believes Frodo knows what the barrow-blades can do to him. I think there’s a recent thread on that.) His fear and concern cause him to fail in his mission to retrieve the Ring by making critical errors in judgment that enable Aragorn and Glorfindel to help Frodo escape; but the Witch-king never rejects or refuses or subverts the mission. He is dedicated to carrying out Sauron’s will to retrieve the Ring; he just doesn’t want to get himself killed doing it.