What actually happened when the WC drove Sauron from Dol Guldur?

[Jon S.]

"... and they put forth their strength; and they asssailed Dol Guldur, and drove Sauron from his hold ..."

I've always wondered what actually happened here. What was the White Council's strength that was put forth, was it primarily (or only) the wizards and lords of the Eldar or were armies of footsoldiers involved, to? Were men or dwarves involved?

And what actually happened at the "assailing?" We know that, from Sauon's perspective, the assault was expected and even encouraged so as to divert the White Council's attention from Mordor where, indeed, Sauron had already dispatched the Nine before the assault to prepare Barad-dur for his arrival. So, who or what remained with Sauron in Dol Guldur at the time that the White Council would have had to assail along with Sauron? Orcs? Trolls? Evil men? No one?

[Gordis]

A very interesting question, Jon S.!

What was the White Council's strength that was put forth, was it primarily (or only) the wizards and lords of the Eldar or were armies of footsoldiers involved, to? Were men or dwarves involved? ?
I think the armies of elven footsoldiers were involved, mostly from Lorien, but perhaps from Rivendell as well. Strangely it seems that Thranduil's elves were not involved, at least it is not mentioned in the Hobbit. Dwarves, IMHO,were not in it, as well as men. Surely no one from Gondor or Esgaroth, hardly any Dinedain (they were few and needid in Arnor).

And what actually happened at the "assailing?" We know that, from Sauon's perspective, the assault was expected and even encouraged so as to divert the White Council's attention from Mordor where, indeed, Sauron had already dispatched the Nine before the assault to prepare Barad-dur for his arrival. So, who or what remained with Sauron in Dol Guldur at the time that the White Council would have had to assail along with Sauron? Orcs? Trolls? Evil men? No one?

What troops were in DG? Orcs for sure. Trolls hardly, not their area, as far as I know. Men surely, as Sauron controlled Rhovanion by this time. Wainraiders, balkhots etc.
As for the nazgul, they were in Minas Morgul for 1000 years already. As I have tried to point out in the thread "Were the Nazgul free from Sauron..." they were not yet serving Sauron, instead they were hiding from him in M. Morgul. You may agree with it or not, but that is sure that at least they had not bothered to prepare Barad Dur for Sauron's arrival ;) . He had to take care of it himself.

[Maerbenn]

What troops were in DG? ... Trolls hardly, not their area, as far as I know.From The Lord of the Rings, Appendix F, section I ‘The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age’:... at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dûr.

[Gordis]

Thank you for the quote, Maerbenn. Yes, I was wrong about trolls.

[Olmer]

And what actually happened at the "assailing?"
It was no other than “unyielding and opposing” Saruman himself who actually in 2941 forced Sauron to abandon his hiding place:
“It was by devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur.” (FOTR. BookII, chapt.II).I think he was elected by the White Council as parlamentarian to convince Sauron "to move out for his own good". :) Besides, Sauron was not “driven out”, as the White Council wanted to make believe, but just unhurriedly retreated according with his own plans: “Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur “(“LOTR“, App.B)
As who remained in Dol -Guldur after Sauron's withdrawal... I think the same garrison which was stationed over there, because the fortress was left untouched and has never been leveled to the ground, as Elendil did to the Dark Tower. It woun’t surprise me if the Elves even had repaired it a little bit to make it ready for the next tenants- the Nazgul !

[Gordis]

Good points, Olmer. The only thing, "abandoned" means that there was nobody left in DG after Sauron's retreat. And there is a matching entry in the Tale of Years for 2951 "Sauron sends three of the Nazgûl to reoccupy Dol Guldur." So between 2944 and 2951 DG was empty. Yes, the Elves could demolish it (if they wanted to), but they didn't. Perhaps there WAS a treaty with the Necromancer.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Or perhaps they still feared to enter it. Remember men still feared to enter Minas Morgul after Sauron was defeathed. IMO it's the same kind of thing, they were still in fear of some lingering sorcery or something of that sort.

[Gordis]

Yes, but they were MEN.
As for the White counsil, they surely could destroy empty Dol Guldur as Galadriel did later, after the final victory:
"Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."
Dol Guldur, unlike Barad Dur, was not built with the help of the One, as in the Second Age it was an elvish fortress, and in the third age Sauron had no ring.
Actually the White counsil did not use the opportunity to destroy DG twice, as in 2063 Sauron ran away from Gandalf and DG was deserted for 400 years, called The Watchful Peace. No, there was something more to Necromancer -White Counsil relations than the Elves wanted others to believe.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Also how could the Council be sure it was emptied, which I doubt. For all they knew some or all of the Nazgûl could still be there, along with a mighty horde of Orcs and trolls, they had no way of knowing.

[Gordis]

I would say the wizards had ways of knowing, Galadriel even boasted of knowing a part of Sauron's mind... Why not send one of Radagast birds? Or a spy? Sure, elven lives are so very precious...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think Dol Guldur was the kind of fortress that was open topped. I'd always imagined it as more of an underground fortress. And of course even lives are precious but that's for another thread. ;)

[Uinor]

What actually happened when the WC drove Sauron from Dol Guldur?

Didn't they drop him off at the bus station?

[Olmer]

I don't think Dol Guldur was the kind of fortress that was open topped. I'd always imagined it as more of an underground fortress.
I admire you determination to stand up by your belive, and sometimes you have been coming up with quite difficult to contradict arguments, but this one is very easy to prove your wrong.
To save the time I ‘m just taking this quote from my previous posting.
Furthermore, you can’t help to be puzzled by strange declaration that it took 150 years for the Wise, and especially for Galadriel, who with help of her Ring could “perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves”(“FOTR”, bookII, chapt.VII), to "discover” the enemy’s stronghold which was built up on the Amon Lanc , the highest point in the highland of the Greenwood “in the midst UPON a stony height”. This summit was bare from any vegetations, and the excuse, that you did not notice an ongoing on the top of the hightest hill construction of such proportion (Surprise, surprise! It grew overnight!), just won’t do. As it mentioned in HOME -VII, at that time it can be seen from the top of Cerin Amroth, and only much later it was hidden behind the clouds, as Haldir was stating : “a black cloud lies often over it of late.“(FOTR,”Lothlorien”) Doesn’t seems odd that such evil fortress had been built in the middle of Elves realm and in very close proximity to Lorien and allowed to stay for 2000 years?
But any way I agree with your point that Dol Guldur has never been completely vacant.
The only thing, "abandoned" means that there was nobody left in DG after Sauron's retreat.
It says that Sauron himself abandoned the fortress. Nothing says that it was absolutely empty. As of "Sauron sends three of the Nazgûl to reoccupy Dol Guldur." we should remember that at the beginning of existence of the fortress "it thought to be one of the Nazgul"who occupied and built the place.Actually, I think that the Wise were not too far from the truth:
at that time Sauron was too weak to supervise such grand construction and definately he had to turn to the help of his most trusted and powerful managers. :) So in 2951 Nazgul "reoccupied " the place in which they had been stationed before.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with you Olmer that some Nazgûl may have originally occupied Dol Guldur, but I also believe Sauron was there aswell and they were governing his commands.

[Gordis]

As of "Sauron sends three of the Nazgûl to reoccupy Dol Guldur." we should remember that at the beginning of existence of the fortress "it thought to be one of the Nazgul"who occupied and built the place.Actually, I think that the Wise were not too far from the truth:
at that time Sauron was too weak to supervise such grand construction and definately he had to turn to the help of his most trusted and powerful managers. :) So in 2951 Nazgul "reoccupied " the place in which they had been stationed before.
The wize thought the Necromancer to be ONE of the nazgul, and that one person was later proved to be Sauron himself. Had there been several, they would have known for sure.
As for nazgul supervising the building of DG, why would they do that for Sauron if he himself was so weak? Out of love and devotion?

[Olmer]

but I also believe Sauron was there aswell and they were governing his commands.
I do believe too. :)
Had there been several, they would have known for sure.
They knew for sure who is who. When in 1050 the dark “shadow falls on Greenwod” it was not a total surprise for them, because ”whence it came A FEW could tell” (Sil.) What do you think, who would be this knowledgeable A FEW? Of course the Wise one! And about this time( how providential!) the Istari was sent to Middle-earth “to contest the power of SAURON” . What to contest if you know that he is not around?
Start as early as 2060 at least, is was known to the Wise who is building the Dol Guldur:“The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again“ (“LOTR“, App.B) Besides, even one Nazgul is a potential treat to peaceful existance, and as we know by this time it was already a few of them.So where they supposed to stay without making themselves too obvious. I think Dol Guldur was just that right place. As for one Nazgul or many - who counted? Definately ,they did not walk in pairs. ;) So Sauron was stationed over there with Nazgul for some time and it was well known by the Wise. They just pretended of being hesitant in indentification to excuse their unwillingness to engage in some actions, letting Sauron to make himself comfortable in his “summer residence”.

By the way, Gandalf was a very frequient guest over there! Officially documented two of his visits in Dol Guldur: in 2063 when “Sauron retreats and hides in the East” and in 2850, when Gandalf “discovers that its master is indeed Sauron”(LOTR, App.B). But, according to Christopher Tolkien, in Gandalf’s story about his search for Gollum was a suggestion that the wizard visited the formidable fortress for the third time :”…for I went back once more to the land of the Necromancer “.. (“HOME. “Return of the Shadow.” Of Gollum and the Ring.)
Don’t you think that old Gandalf felt pretty much at home in the heart of the enemy? Maybe it has been an inspection visits?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Also, why would Sauron send Khamûl to rule Dol Guldur after his departure? Why not the Witch-King his most powerful servant. This would suggest to me that Khamûl was on of those who went with Sauron to Dol Guldur (if any did).

[Gordis]

They knew for sure who is who.
I agree with you. Most likely the Wize knew everything from the start. But they could not admit it to others, especially to men and hobbits, even after the final victory. Therefore the version that we can see in the Red book has appeared. And yes, Gandalf was in DG at least twice. And how many times was Saruman there on inspection visits, who was the White Counsil expert on Sauron?

Actually the counsil treatened to attack DG only when Sauron had become dangerous to Elves. Before 2944 three things must have happened at once: 1. Gandalf saw Bilbo find a Ring, that could very well be the One. 2. Saruman learned that Sauron was searching the river near the Gladden. 3. Galadriel perceived Sauron's plan to attack Lorien (and probably learned of his idea to enlist Smaug). After that, of course, the majority of the counsil voted for the removal of Sauron from Dol Guldur. And then, very probably, Saruman went to DG (perhaps even accompanied by Gandalf-that would be his third visit to DG) and presented an ultimatum. And Sauron complied and left with his army for Mordor. And the White Counsil, in return, left DG stand intact.

If all the above is true, that means that Gandalf lied outright about the White counsil actions. However there might be a slight possibility that our favorite wizard was kept in the dark by other members of the White Counsil :) . Then he really had to learn by himself who is who, sneaking to DG and to Angmar (yes he was there: "Mithrandir, … ever went to and fro in the Westlands from Gondor to Angmar, and from Lindon to Lórien." - UT) and bringing his revelations to the attention of the Counsil members, who laughed at the Grey Fool behind his back :D .

So, let us examine Gandalf's tale:
c. 1100 The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgûl.
2060 The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again

I think that till 1975 Gandalf knew that there were two major bad guys in the West: the Witch-King and the Necromancer. It was clear that both lived too long to be men. But who was who? Perhaps one of them was Sauron, perhaps both were nazgul. To learn the identity of each of them it was necessary to send a person with a presence in the spirit word (either a Calaquendi elf, or one of the Istari, or a ringbearer) to have a look. Likely Glorfindel learned that the Witch-King was a nazgul when seeing him at the battle of Fornost (1975). Then all the Nine were probably counted during the assault of Minas Ithil (2000-2002). So, the identity of the tenth - the Necromancer - has become pretty clear even to the Grey Pilgrim :rolleyes: . Therefore Gandalf must have tried to convince the Counsil to attack Dol Guldur and (to bring them direct evidence) went to see the Necromancer himself (2063). But Sauron learned of Gandalf's impending visit (perhaps even from the other members of the White Counsil :rolleyes: ) and fled. So Saruman, Galadriel and others could continue to feign ignorance of the Necromancer's identity till Gandalf's visit to DG in 2850. And even so, the counsil left Sauron in peace till 2944 :( .
As for one Nazgul or many - who counted? Definately ,they did not walk in pairs. So where they supposed to stay without making themselves too obvious. I think Dol Guldur was just that right place. It is not too important for the discussion, but they mostly walked and rode in pairs (see The Hunt for the Ring UT): lone nazgul "were apt to stray when alone in daylight". There may have been some unfortunate nazgul in Dol Guldur (who were fool enough to pass close to DG and had their rings taken by Sauron). But that was before 1980 when the Witch-King gathered all of them in Gorgoroth and led them to the assault of Minas Ithil. They stayed there till 2951.

Also, why would Sauron send Khamûl to rule Dol Guldur after his departure? Why not the Witch-King his most powerful servant. This would suggest to me that Khamûl was on of those who went with Sauron to Dol Guldur (if any did).
I should say Sauron wanted to keep the too powerful WK under close surveillance. Khamul was second in command so he was sent to DG.

But perhaps you are right, and Khamul had his ring taken by the Necromancer much earlier, dwelt for some with the Necromancer in DG, before going to Mordor in 1980, and what is most important later helped Sauron to overcome the Witch King in Minas Morgul and take his ring. In this case it was a reward.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Is it not possible that Gandalf did not discover any Nazgûl in Dol Guldur, even though they were there? I'm sure Gandalf did not have time to search every single spot of Dol Guldur in detail.

Also the Council did not attack Dol Guldur until they did because on Saruman. Gandalf and Elrond and most likely Galadriel to wanted to attack DG before they did, but Saruman overruled them.

[Gordis]

The decision of the Counsil was voted. It brings us again to the composition of the WC. If Gandalf + Erlond + Galadriel were for the attack, who then was against? Saruman + Rhadagast+ ???(you need at least 2 more)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But Saruman was leader of the Council, and had looked into the arts of Sauron, the most out of any in ME. And at this point the Council still trusted him. IMO there was some sense of wisdom in not wantin to attack DG. Sauron would be stronger in Mordor than he was in DG, why force him to move to where he was stronger?

[Butterbeer]

The decision of the Counsil was voted. It brings us again to the composition of the WC. If Gandalf + Erlond + Galadriel were for the attack, who then was against? Saruman + Rhadagast+ ???(you need at least 2 more)


One more, as in a tie, Saruman would have casting vote.
Cirdan perhaps? convinced by the expertise and wisdom of Saruman?

[Jon S.]

FWIW, found the following in a post on The Barrows-Down Discussion Forum:

... it is in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", which I'd like to see consolidated with LoTR appendices, UTs and what else into as full a tale of "Middle-Earth" in the Second & Third Age as possible (aside from T&BA/LoTR).

ORPTA was specifically written by JRRT for publication with "Quenta Silmarillion" and I believe it was essentially finished during his lifetime, and thus may be considered to be true Canon, as opposed to the "Quenta Silmarillion" as diputably edited by CRT for The Silmarillion for which I'm working now with the 2nd Edition, as opposed to my treasured 1st American Printing.

On page 300-2, which I'll assume here to be canon, it gives a good telling of the White Council, but I see no mention of "five" having specifically undertaken the assault on Dol Guldor, and I doubt that there is such a reference.

This telling does confirm, as I thought, that Cirdan was a Charter Member of the White Council, along with Elrond and Galadriel. Actually, ORPTA refers to the White Council as primarily an Eldarin enterprise. (In fact, some of its members had been part of the Second Age's first such council)

Besides the three already noted, other Elven Lords were definitely counted amoung it members, who would undoubtedly include at least Celeborn, Glorfindel and Erestor. (I would not, however, list Thranduil, Gildor, Elrohir, Elladen, Arwen, or Haldir among even potential White Councillors, even if the first two were at times privy to the counsels of the Wise)

Saruman and Gandalf are then described as joining the council too, although certainly as key members, seeing as they were the two candidates for the Chair.

Radagast's absence in that text is certainly significant, as his name appears in close context just above. I take this to imply, with little uncertainty, that Gandalf and Saruman were the only Istari, who were also real members of the White Council.

As for the assault, Radagast might still have been called on, geography being what it was, even if he was no more than a nominal part of the White Council.

The primary players from the White Council, who were present at the scene, were Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Celeborn (with Galadhrim forces), and possibly Glorfindel leading a contingency from Rivendell and potentially even from Lindon. I believe that Elrond was not directly involved in person.

I think it interesting that in the LoTR we get strong lead up about both Celeborn and Erestor being reputedly so wise. Yet, much of what they say in LoTR would lead one to at least wonder about these reputations.

[Jon S.]

And this one's from a post on The Tolkien Forum:

Elrond, Galadriel & Cirdan are definitely mentioned.

One can assume from what Glorfindel says at The Council Of Elrond, "It is clear now that even at the Council his (Saruman's) feet were already on a crooked path."
This certainly seems to be said in a first hand knowledge sort of way.
Also, he is called an "Elf lord from a house of princes" by Gandalf to Frodo.

Maybe Erestor, called cheif of the counsellors of Elrond's household (besides Glorfindel).

Probably Celeborn. Galadriel, while more 'powerful', calls him "The Lord of the Galadrim" & says he "is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth".

Possibly even Thrandruil too, although I doubt that as he seems like a bit of a jerk in The Hobbit. However, he IS king of a major power in the struggle against Evil, & is to whom they bring Gollum after capturing him.
BUT, thinking as I write this, he seems to be present in Northern Mirkwood when The White Council is meeting for the final time & Sauron retreats from Dol Guldur. However, as Gandalf reappears at the Battle of 5 Armies, I guess Thranduil could've left after the Dwarves escaped & come back with Gandalf.

Also, maybe Elrond's 2 sons.

So, there was probably at least 5 Elves, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Glorfindel & Celeborn, plus the 2 Wizards & maybe another 2-5 Elves who probably didn't have as much clout.

Now, Gandalf was never chosen to head the White Council & refused.
Galadriel wanted him, but he refused. Nothing's ever said that the job was his, just that he wouldn't take it.

So, I can see a dialogue where they debate the leadership & Galadriel says "How about Gandalf?"
& Gandalf says "I wouldn't take it even if you choose (or vote for) me." & then basically Saruman gets it.
But, also remember, Saruman wasn't necessarily 2nd choice. It only says Galadriel wanted Gandalf. Note:

1. Saruman was of the same 'people of Aule' as Sauron, so more like him in skills & knowledge.

2. Gandalf says to Frodo "He is the chief of my Order & mighty among The Wise."

[Gordis]

Awesome posts, Jon S.! I envy your knowledge of the sources.

What is then your answer to the question: Why did the White Counsil leave the Necromancer in peace for 1800 years?

[Jon S.]

Awesome posts, Jon S.! I envy your knowledge of the sources.

What is then your answer to the question: Why did the White Counsil leave the Necromancer in peace for 1800 years?

I don't have an answer. But what I'm thinking of right now is how I'd answer a question, say from my kids, as to why the other European countries left Adolph Hitler in peace until their hands were called. Perhaps the factors underlying the White Council's response weren't all that different.

[Gordis]

Exactly, Jon S, exactly! IMHO, the European countries left Hitler in peace hoping he will turn East and attack the USSR. Stalin hoped for a lasting alliance with Hitler and wished him attack the West. The results were desastrous both for the western countries and for Russians.
Wasn't it the same with the Elves?

[Jon S.]

Well, I'm not sure who else the Elves thought Sauron would attack besides them (who are you thinking of, men or dwarves?). I meant more along the lines of Europe had not too long ago already fought a World War, were weary of fighting, death, and destruction, and also (foolishly, in retrospect) thought Hitler's Germany could be either contained or appeased.

Perhaps the Elves felt some of these same feelings towards Sauron at those times.

[Olmer]

Exactly, Jon S, exactly! IMHO, the European countries left Hitler in peace hoping he will turn East and attack the USSR. Stalin hoped for a lasting alliance with Hitler and wished him attack the West. The results were desastrous both for the western countries and for Russians.
Wasn't it the same with the Elves?
Exactly the same!I have a foolish habit to look everywhere for our human race history’s analogies, and this reminds me the flight school near Lipetsk in Russia . There the Luftwaffe’s pilots were taking a flight training and an upgraiding courses before the World War II . Under the terms of Versalle’s Treaty Germany couldn’t have army , let alone to build up an army’s commanding personnel. So, Vermaht’s officers took their training on USSR territory. Stalin has been schooling a were-wolf to sic him on Europe. Everybody knows how it ended up…
Hence, the very similar wolf was groving and maturing in Mirkwood’s Dol Guldur.

[Gordis]

Well, I'm not sure who else the Elves thought Sauron would attack besides them (who are you thinking of, men or dwarves?).
I meant Gondor. I believe that this "clarification" of Elvish policy was originally Olmer's idea. I agree with his POV. This has been discussed at length in "Why did the Ring betray Isildur thread": Why evil fortress had been built in the middle of Elves realm and in very close proximity to Lorien and allowed to stay for 2000 years?
That's easy.The whole history of Dol Guldur suggests that it was a silent agreement amongs the Wise to consider Sauron as a counterweight of the Gondor's Empire , which already was clasping its greedy hands on far away countries. With wealth of such proportion that kids of Gondor would play with gemstones as they would do with pebbles, and with manpower many times enforced by slaves and servants from submissed countries I would't consider Gondor as harmless.
The Elves did not consider either. There was some kind of temporary peace agreement between Sauron and the Elves.

[Uinor]

It was the annual Socerers Outdoor Celebrity Cookout.........they closed the wetbar early which did not go over well with the guests. Somone pulled a wand, and one thing led to another. Several arrests were reported.