What is the Eye of Sauron?

[Gordis]

Hi, everybody,
I have a question for you. I am not aware of its being discussed before.

WHAT is the eye of Sauron?
I don't mean the physical feature of his body, but the Eye he used to see things far away:
And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.
and
... and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay...

Could the Eye be the Palantir of Minas Ithil used by Sauron? Or was the Eye a special device?

[Beren3000]

:eek:
Very very interesting question, gordis!!

I don't think this "eye" is the palantir. I think it was the "physical feature"; but I don't like Peter Jackson's interpretation of Sauron as only an Eye. I think that Sauron had a full body but his eye had this piercing gaze because he had a strong lifeforce on account of his being a Maia and all...
To support my point, Aragorn had the heralds cry "Let the lord of the Black Land come forth!" I don't exactly see Sauron as a huge eyeball rolling down Barad-Dur toward the Morannon. IMO, this means that Sauron had an incarnate form.

[Gordis]

I don't think this "eye" is the palantir. I think it was the "physical feature"; but I don't like Peter Jackson's interpretation of Sauron as only an Eye. I think that Sauron had a full body but his eye had this piercing gaze because he had a strong lifeforce on account of his being a Maia and all...
To support my point, Aragorn had the heralds cry "Let the lord of the Black Land come forth!" I don't exactly see Sauron as a huge eyeball rolling down Barad-Dur toward the Morannon. IMO, this means that Sauron had an incarnate form.
I agree with all my heart that Sauron had a physical body. Perhaps he had one or two flaming eyes with vertical slits. One eye, likely. (Why does that always remind me of Gil-Galad's Aiglos?)

But did Sauron need some extra device to see far with his eye/eyes? Because if he had, that device looks very much like a palantir to me. Either he invented something of his own (as Galadriel with her mirror) or he used the palantir of Minas Ithil.
Normally people were not aware when someone looked at them using the palantir. But perhaps with Sauron being a very powerful bad maia and all, his gaze could be seen or felt directly at close range (within Mordor) and felt by sensibilized persons (wearing a ring or looking into the Mirror) at a longer range?
Any ideas?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

IMHO the 'eye of sauron' refers to the fact that sauron had taken control of the ithil stone, maybe the influence of the nine that he held (;)) made people aware that they were being observed [ref to: frodo on amon hen, black arm v. gandalf's voice]

[Olmer]

Normally people were not aware when someone looked at them using the palantir.
Normally people aware when somebody is looking at them even without palantir.Try to stare at somebody's back, eventually person becomes uncomfortable and turns around.
The third eye IS exist in our body and this is devise for communication on body's energy level, only it's still in primodial stage in human.
Sauron is a higher being with energy amount surpassing humans many times, therefore his subliminal potential for communication is immense.
The Eye of Sauron, as I see, is a cluster of pulsating, fiery energy deep inside his mind (literally, it's what we call the Third Eye), which is he able to send at will far and away.
Something like some seers are doing.
Nothing paranormal, just highly enhanced body function. :cool:

[Nurvingiel]

Awesome question Gordis. :)

I third that Sauron has a physical body. Not fair to look upon like when he deceived people as Annatar, but certainly a physical form. "There are four fingers on the Black Hand," Gollum said. It's not a stretch to say that there's a body to go along with it.

I don't think of the Eye of Sauron as being in anyway an actual eye. I think it's how people refer to Sauron's will, which is powerful enough to perceive his enemies at a distance.

Let's take the situation on Amon Hen, (which I sketchily recall). Frodo was wearing the Ring, making him much easier for Sauron to perceive. Frodo only avoided discovery because Gandalf, now the White, strove with Sauron and distracted him. Gandalf also urged Frodo to take the Ring off, which he did, making him harder to find.

I don't think Sauron physically sees people with his "eye", I think he perceives their spirit. Maybe like the Nazguls, Sauron's only half operating in the physical world. That's why wearing the Ring makes Frodo easier to find - he becomes much more a part of the spiritual world. Which would explain why he had trouble finding Frodo Ringless.

He probably thought whoever had been wearing the Ring was trying to master it, not destroy it. He knew pretty much nothing about Hobbits, so maybe he had trouble recognizing their presence. I'm having trouble articulating this because I'm running out of canonical evidence.

However, I don't think that Sauron actually had a flaming spotlight of Mordor atop Barad-dur, in addition to an actual body. This seems a bit silly to me, and Sauron is anything but silly. I think Sauron could focus his will in such a powerful way that it would seem like a physical presence.

I think the Eye is a metaphor for Sauron's will, the way Gandalf used "Sauron's arm has grown long" to be a metaphor for Sauron's increasing power and influence.

:)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think the eye refers to the way that Sauron finds out about the goings on in ME, using 'spys' and cretures and beasts that are his service, although I like Nurv's idea of being half in the spirit world, probably by possesing the Nine.

[Butterbeer]

well as usual Gordis has posted another thought provoking question.

and as usual i'll be silly before serious...

...so.. since we know that Sauron took baths, possibly wearing water-proof gloves ... we can infer he had a body and PJ can go visit the great fiery Optician in the sky on that one.

i do not think a device (as galadriel's mirror etc): i generally concur with the mix of mia spirit, power and manifestastion of will, most of what nurv valiantly attempts to articulate, and the usegage in this respect of the Palantar as a useful but not imperative tool in this respect.

it seems from what we know that when the wise or ring sensitive are perceptive at all to the will or mind of sauron they see this will or sense Sauron as a a fiery eye: does this not as Gordis suggests in some small form represent a physical manifestation of Sauron's non-fair pyschical form but more in terms of the mind's eye or third eye a spiritual description of the spirit: an evil, fiery searching will fierce, incisive, stabbing and ever ever looking for the one?

the use of Fire itself suggests a spirit consumed and a rejection of Tolkien's spiritual or religious views somewhat in line with the pride and folly of Denethor and his Pagan Pyre?

BB

[Nurvingiel]

Interesting Butterbeer. I don't really think of it as a mind's eye as you and Olmer related, but actually what I said is pretty much the same idea.

Maybe the eye of flame is the way Sauron's spirit/will/mind's eye manifests itself in your mind if he is focusing his will on you (ie. if you're wearing the Ring).

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet surely the firey eye can not exist aswell as Sauron's physical form, as he would be 'in two places at once'.

[Olmer]

does this not as Gordis suggests in some small form represent a physical manifestation of Sauron's non-fair pyschical form but more in terms of the mind's eye or third eye a spiritual description of the spirit:
BB
I beg you pardon, but let's to clarify it .
When I was talking about the third eye I did not mean that it is a vertically slit flaming eye right in the middle of the forehead, suggested by Gordis. My idea is more in tune with Nurvingiel:the ability to see on spiritual level .:)

[Butterbeer]

Interesting Butterbeer. I don't really think of it as a mind's eye as you and Olmer related, but actually what I said is pretty much the same idea.

Maybe the eye of flame is the way Sauron's spirit/will/mind's eye manifests itself in your mind if he is focusing his will on you (ie. if you're wearing the Ring).


its not the easiest one to pin down in words is it? :)

Kind of like an avatar: but Sauron's will is so strong and of a Forecful nature that most, even Galadriel percieve it in the same way?

Or:
with the concave or convex? magnification of the palantir: all we are seeing or perceiving is (that Will or 3rd eye force etc manifested in visual form in the receivers' mind as broadcast from) the view we have of Saurons eye or eyes as Gordis suggests of him looking close into the Palantir, which being a tool he's mastered and in control of and uses to sharpen or amplify his will in ME:

i.e what we see is his eye or eyes which are slits of flame from his pysical form magnified by the curvature of the palantir into a massive fiery eye which is how the mind or spirit on the astral or whatever plain thus visualises Sauron.
???
like i say words aren't easy to pin down here!

that would explain the "EYE" representaton in galadriels's and others' mind's eye but also get away from this ridiculous great big floating disembodied furnace of an eye idea!

[Butterbeer]

I beg you pardon, but let's to clarify it .
When I was talking about the third eye I did not mean that it is a vertically slit flaming eye right in the middle of the forehead, suggested by Gordis. My idea is more in tune with Nurvingiel:the ability to see on spiritual level .:)


well yeah to clarify Olmer i wasn't suggesting that you were suggesting that at all -
and i am hoping to merge to the 2 ideas together, see above


i.e the spiritual force, as you and Nurvingiel outline but perhaps based on a pysical view of sauron's bodily actual eye or eyes as viewed from close up in a palantir: remember how pippin is drawn physically close to the palantir: he would surely appear with a fish-eye lens effect (if you know waht i mean: i.e curved and distorted in aspect ratio and appearance)

[Snowdog]

Forgetting P.J.'s searchlight, I always interpreted the 'eye of Sauron' in my readings as a sort of combination of his Maia spirit, his remaining will (the rest he had made into the One Ring), and the articulate use of the Palantir to help his vision. Of course he couldn't see all and know all, but still, even while dispossessed of the Ring, he was still quite a formidable being. I don't think he had physical shape per se.

Butterbeer, you make perfect sense to me as its how I understand Sauron.

[Butterbeer]

Forgetting P.J.'s searchlight, I always interpreted the 'eye of Sauron' in my readings as a sort of combination of his Maia spirit, his remaining will (the rest he had made into the One Ring), and the articulate use of the Palantir to help his vision. Of course he couldn't see all and know all, but still, even while dispossessed of the Ring, he was still quite a formidable being. I don't think he had physical shape per se.


well put


re: physical shape: how did he (or didn't he: ask Gordis) then wear any rings? were they virtual rings (in our terms on this plane) or exisited effctively on his finger in the spiritual world or the effective wraith world of the Nazgul only??
how then does that work?

i agree with your summation to a large degree but think he must have taken a physical form

[Snowdog]

The way I always viewed this was if the ring was brought to him, his spirit would enshroud it and he would again be united with the rest of his strength and will, allowing him to take a physical shape.

[Gordis]

First of all, I wish to thank everybody who found this question “though-inspiring�. Actually, like Saruman, I am very much interested in foul crafts and evil devices of the Enemy :p . I hope it will not ruin my reputation entirely :o .

When I was talking about the third eye I did not mean that it is a vertically slit flaming eye right in the middle of the forehead, suggested by Gordis.
Nay, I have never said that Sauron has a single cyclops eye in the middle of his forehead! On the contrary, I believe that Sauron’s body originally (after the Downfall of Numenor) had 2 eyes, both red and with vertical slits. But in the Third age he has regained the same body, mutilated in the Last Alliance battles. We know for sure he lacked one finger. But Isildur cut it AFTER Sauron was brought down, probably killed. He must have had other critical injuries inflicted by Gil-Galad and Elendil. What were those other injuries?. If Sauron was helmed and mail-clad from head to foot, there were few vulnerable places. Very likely, Gil-Galad stabbed Sauron through one of his eyes with Aiglos, his lance.
Eyes, like fingers, do not regenerate. So, I envisage Sauron with a black eye-patch like an old pirate.

[Gordis]

In the question of the Eye I have had no firm opinion of my own. Those of you who think that the Eye could be a channeled evil will or a far-seeng “third eye� may well be right. There were examples of Valar and Maiar with far-seeing eyes:
Morgoth, for example, did have the eye-sight with a resolution like a spy-satellite’s.
(Silm) Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow; and taking Húrin from prison he set him in a chair of stone upon a high place of Thangorodrim. There he was bound by the power of Morgoth, and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again; and he said: 'Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom thou lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears thou shalt hear; and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end.' And Hurin could even READ an inscription on the tombstone of his son leagues away near Nargothrond! (An aside question: how come Morgoth was unable to find Gondolin then?).

Another example is Gandalf the White (!Not the Gray!). Upon his return from death he says: ‘I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten. I can see many things far off, but many things that are close at hand I cannot see.� And indeed he proves his new ability on several occasions:“ He rose and gazed out eastward, shading his eyes, as if he saw things far away that none of them could see. Then he shook his head. 'No,' he said in a soft voice, 'it has gone beyond our reach.� And again in Minas Tirith: “he went up on to the walls nearby; and there like a figure carven in white he stood in the new sun and looked out. And he beheld with the sight that was given to him all that had befallen�. Before the War, Gandalf the Grey seemed to have no such abilities: he had great trouble locating Frodo when he followed him from Bag-end to Weathertop and ‘could not find him in the wilderness�. So it seems that Gandalf was given this “improved eyesight� in Valinor before his re-assignment to Middle Earth.

On the other hand, I can think of some arguments that Sauron needed a palantir for his far-seeing:

1.Timing: It seems that the Eye was first mentioned AFTER Sauron returned to Mordor (TA 2951). No one has heard of the Eye of the Necromancer, or so I think. It fits with the timing of Sauron getting the Ithil stone. As I have tried to prove in the “Nazgul freedom� tread, after having mastered his unwilling ringwraiths, Sauron must have taken the Palantir along with the Nine rings. The Lord of Morgul surely kept the Palantir for himself from 2002 till 2951. If fits also with the fact that nobody has had ill-effects from using the palantiri till Sauron’s return to Mordor. I don’t believe it that in 1000 years not a single one of the Stewards ever tried to look in the Minas Tirith stone! In 2759: “Saruman went to Isengard in hope to find the Stone still there, and with the purpose of building up a power of his own� (App.II).. He hardly waited 200 years to look in the stone, IMHO. So BEFORE 2951 it was not so perilous to use the palantiri. There was NO EYE YET to catch the unwary user.
2. Sauron in Dol Guldur was unable either to locate Gollum wearing the Ring in his native village (2463-2470), or to locate Bilbo wearing the Ring in Mirkwood (2941). In both cases the Ring was worn practically under Sau’s nose! Perhaps he felt it, but to LOCATE it he needed a Palantir.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I' ll answer your two questions from the last post.

1. I agree that the 'Eye' may have something to do with the Ithil stone but I would also say that no Steward had looked into the palantir until Denethor. Denethor lost his wisdom and IMO he saw that he power of Sauron was growing and he thought that if he did not confront him then all would be lost. Or it is a possibility that he had no idea that Sauron had the Ithil stone, as Aragorn and Gandalf did not know how S & S were communicating until Pippin found the palantir at Isengard. In answer to the Saruman part I think that there is a chance that Saruman was corrupted before 2951 (unless there is evidence that he wasn't.
2. Sauron was weak and IMO wasn't initially looking for tthe Ring when he set up Dol Guldur, but knew it was near the Gladden. IMO he realised the Ring was near but took it for the wrong place. He knew Isildur fell in the Gladden and sensing the Ring was near decided that the logical place for it to be was the Gladden. So he sent his servants to search for it, think it was soon to be found and bought to him. IMO he only realised that he was wrong when he found out that the White Council were going to attack, so busied himself preparing for his departure, and not for search the North East of ME for the One.

[Butterbeer]

then Sauron clearly (i should say probably) uses and needs the palantir to project his sight and will and mind and thought etc over both distance ( and time??? ref: gandal's abilities and re: suggested abilities of palnatir?),

as sauron looks very closely into (perhaps his eye/ eyes (if gordis is right - has suffered damage?) into the Palantir to do it: the palantir being a sphere is therefore effectively a convex shape and acts like a wide angle lens: therefore if Sauron's eye is close to it his eye will be exagerated and fill up the palantir:

perhaps this explains why he is percieved by Galadriel, et al as an eye: this is the mental visual representation to their mind's eye etc or image as projected:
i really think we can discount any idea of him being just an eye: for all sorts of obvious and potentially humorous reasons! (why would he need bath gloves? How does he sing in the bath etc? How would he deal with / would he suffer from itchy virtual nose syndrome?: the one where amputees's brains still relate to no longer existing body parts etc: what if he met Mrs right: the erstwhile Mordor homemaker?: there'd be some obvious problems there too y'know!)

by the way i don't think boromir 1 became a wraith: took too long and there were already the nine: concur it means some other type of morgul wound: im sure tolkien and the annals of Gondor would have had something to say on the matter if he had.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

to answer TD...
1. i feel that denethor did not lose his wisdom until after his ensnarement by sauron
2. i feel sauron was indeed searching, franticly perhaps, for the ring, it was the key to his power before his return to mordor, and hence regaining the nine

your 1 and 2 i agree with gordis, makes sense, i feel

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

2. i feel sauron was indeed searching, franticly perhaps, for the ring, it was the key to his power before his return to mordor, and hence regaining the nine
As do I. I just think that that wasn't the first thing on his mind when he set himself up in Dol Guldur. He needed to recover his strentgh. IMO finding the Ring was the long-term goal.

[Gordis]

I don't think Sauron physically sees people with his "eye", I think he perceives their spirit. Maybe like the Nazguls, Sauron's only half operating in the physical world. That's why wearing the Ring makes Frodo easier to find - he becomes much more a part of the spiritual world. Which would explain why he had trouble finding Frodo Ringless.
It is a very interesting observation, Nurvingiel. Actually you may well be right. Now I wonder, could Sauron even use the Palantir normally - to see things of physical world at a distance? Palantir was not a device used for shifting from the unseen world to a normal one. Perhaps his vision, even through the Palantir, was reduced to things of spirit world: he could see wraiths, ringwielders, High Elves, but he were unable to see the approach of the Rohan army or that the Umbar fleet was carrying the Gray company? Perhaps he could use the Palantir only to communicate with other stones and read the thoughts of Saruman and Denethor that contained visions of the physical world that they were able to see in their Palantiri as mortal men? Sounds confusing, even to myself. :confused:

[Nurvingiel]

Well thanks Gordis! I feel that's quite a compliment - you have a lot of great insights. :)

I'm afraid I don't know enough about the Palintir to comment on that. I would agree that Sauron probably wouldn't use it in the same way that Denethor did.

On the other hand, if he couldn't use the Palintir to see the physical world, how would he manipulate what Denethor saw in it?

[Gordis]

Thank you for your compliment, Nurvingiel!
On the other hand, if he couldn't use the Palintir to see the physical world, how would he manipulate what Denethor saw in it? I think that while Denethor was looking in the Palantir on the physical world, Sauron saw much of Denethor's mind with his Eye. In Denethor's mind Sauron saw the pictures of physical word that he could interpret. Sauron was even able to select the suitable ones and permit Denethor to process them, while the undesirable (potentially cheering ones) he removed. Vague, I know :confused: and difficult to formulate.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

manipulation of the mind, much as derren brown does on 'trick of the mind' perhaps...

[The Wizard from Milan]

I don't think of the Eye of Sauron as being in anyway an actual eye. I think it's how people refer to Sauron's will, which is powerful enough to perceive his enemies at a distance.

Let's take the situation on Amon Hen, (which I sketchily recall). Frodo was wearing the Ring, making him much easier for Sauron to perceive. Frodo only avoided discovery because Gandalf, now the White, strove with Sauron and distracted him. Gandalf also urged Frodo to take the Ring off, which he did, making him harder to find.

I don't think Sauron physically sees people with his "eye", I think he perceives their spirit. Maybe like the Nazguls, Sauron's only half operating in the physical world. That's why wearing the Ring makes Frodo easier to find - he becomes much more a part of the spiritual world. Which would explain why he had trouble finding Frodo Ringless.

I totally agree with Nurv: Sauron's "eye" is Sauron's will or mind; he does not see things with his eyes when he uses the "eye" (confusig I know), when he needs to see something with his eyes, he uses the palantir

[Gordis]

I totally agree with Nurv: Sauron's "eye" is Sauron's will or mind; he does not see things with his eyes when he uses the "eye" (confusig I know), when he needs to see something with his eyes, he uses the palantir
And what is your opinion: does he see (really see physical word) with the palantir? or does he need a mortal intermediary like Saruman or Denethor?

[The Wizard from Milan]

And what is your opinion: does he see (really see physical word) with the palantir? or does he need a mortal intermediary like Saruman or Denethor?
My personal opinion is that when he looks in the palaintir he sees the reality as is (subject to the constraint of the palantiri)

[Gordis]

Well, maybe you are right. Sauron was no nazgul, after all, perhaps he was fully present in the physical word (as well as in the spirit one) and had normal eyesight, not the nazgul-eyesight.

But then, the characteristics of the Palantiri apply also to the Eye, which makes sence. For instance, the range of small stones (like the Ithil one), if I recall correctly the UT , was equal to the distance M.Ithil-Orthank. So Sauron was unable to follow the fellowship while they were moving from Rivendell to Lorien. And Amon Hen was within the range already. Interesting...

[Nurvingiel]

And at Amon Hen, Sauron probably still thought that the Ring was going to Minis Tirith.

But if at Amon Hen, they were within Sauron's range, then how did he lose track of them after the Emyn Muil? The Nazgul was practically on top of them there, and that scene suggests to me that Sauron had more or less been able to follow Frodo and Sam that far.

However, he seems to lose their trail in the Dead Marshes, because though they see Nazgul overhead, they aren't too near. Maybe he was looking for them further west, still assuming that they were going to Minis Tirith. Though the Eye wouldn't be hindered by difficult terrain, he still would have to know where to look.

This would also explain why he didn't spot them in Mordor - why would he look there?

Another possibility is that Sauron saw all spirits at once with the Eye, the dead and the living. If there was no distinctions, Frodo, Sam and Gollum wouldn't stand out in the Marshes.

[The Wizard from Milan]

And at Amon Hen, Sauron probably still thought that the Ring was going to Minis Tirith.

But if at Amon Hen, they were within Sauron's range, then how did he lose track of them after the Emyn Muil? The Nazgul was practically on top of them there, and that scene suggests to me that Sauron had more or less been able to follow Frodo and Sam that far.

However, he seems to lose their trail in the Dead Marshes, because though they see Nazgul overhead, they aren't too near. Maybe he was looking for them further west, still assuming that they were going to Minis Tirith. Though the Eye wouldn't be hindered by difficult terrain, he still would have to know where to look.

This would also explain why he didn't spot them in Mordor - why would he look there?

Another possibility is that Sauron saw all spirits at once with the Eye, the dead and the living. If there was no distinctions, Frodo, Sam and Gollum wouldn't stand out in the Marshes.

As you say, the fact that you can look does not mean that you know where to look. Moreover Sauron was distracted by Aragorn. I can't remember the exact timeline: where was Aragorn when Frodo was in the dead marshes?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And at Amon Hen, Sauron probably still thought that the Ring was going to Minis Tirith.

But if at Amon Hen, they were within Sauron's range, then how did he lose track of them after the Emyn Muil? The Nazgul was practically on top of them there, and that scene suggests to me that Sauron had more or less been able to follow Frodo and Sam that far.

However, he seems to lose their trail in the Dead Marshes, because though they see Nazgul overhead, they aren't too near. Maybe he was looking for them further west, still assuming that they were going to Minis Tirith. Though the Eye wouldn't be hindered by difficult terrain, he still would have to know where to look.

This would also explain why he didn't spot them in Mordor - why would he look there?

Another possibility is that Sauron saw all spirits at once with the Eye, the dead and the living. If there was no distinctions, Frodo, Sam and Gollum wouldn't stand out in the Marshes.
The Nazgûl probably had difficult keeping up with them in Emyn Muil because of the terrain. It was tree-ish and rocky. The Nazgûl probably knew what genereal area the Ring was, but they couldn't pinpoint the actual location. Also there was the distraction of Merry and Pippin. Grishnakh said that a Nazgûl was waiting on the east side of the river, which must mean that there task was known to Sauron. The Nazgûl were most likely waiting for news or hobbits from the orcs, but got tired of waiting so returned to Mordor via the Dead Marshes.

[Gordis]

And at Amon Hen, Sauron probably still thought that the Ring was going to Minis Tirith. I believe, that the Amon Hen incident came as a complete surprise to Sauron. He knew that the Ring had reached Lorien and he must have believed that it would remain hidden there. He has never thought of Orodruin being the Quest’s destination. Why would Sauron suppose that Galadriel will let the Ring go anywhere? Minas Tirith? But would Galadriel give the Ring to Men of Gondor? Never! In this Sauron was right. So he was not expecting any move out of Lorien at all.

Grishnakh said that a Nazgûl was waiting on the east side of the river, which must mean that there task was known to Sauron. The Nazgûl were most likely waiting for news or hobbits from the orcs, but got tired of waiting so returned to Mordor via the Dead Marshes.
And again (like in the Barlog tread and Isildur tread) the strange events at Part Galen become the key to the problem!

Well, let us analyze the events “from the other side”: What has happened before Part Galen? On the 16.02 the fellowship left Lorien. Their departure was observed by Gollum from the other bank of Anduin. I believe there were some orc-spies on the other bank as well, on duty watching over the hostile Lorien. It were Dol Guldur orcs, not Mordor ones, just look at the map. The orcs must have brought the news to the Master of Dol Guldur – Khamul, fresh from Barad-Dur rehab clinic :D where he was “healed” after his drowning in Bruinen. It must have taken about 2 days for the orcs to deliver the news, so the company was far downstream already. The news was of a mixed company leaving Lorien by boats and going south, a very unusual event to be sure, given the “friendly :D ” relations Galadriel kept with her southern neighbors. Khamul mounted his fell beast and came to investigate, mastering all the orcs along the bank and sending them in pursuit. It is likely that there were some orcs (about 40) further south guarding the road that flanks Rauros on the East side. Those Khamul sent over the river on makeshift rafts or boats to make an ambush at Part Galen. But it is unlikely that Khamul warned Sauron of the happenings, as nobody thought that the company was carrying the Ring. Otherwise Sauron would have sent all the Nine to Rauros.
On the 23 the fellowship was attacked at the rapids of Sarn Gebir. Khamul flew overhead, he must have sensed the Ring’s presence then, but his beast was shot by Legolas. Here the matters became difficult, as, without the beast, there was no way now to send the news to Mordor and ask for help in time. There was also no way for the nazgul to cross the river: of the Nine Khamul was the most affected by water-phobia (see UT), he has nearly fallen into a river AGAIN :evil: and must have been badly shaken, moreover he had no special trained horse to carry him on the other bank. He must have told the orcs something like : “The Masster doess not allow usss to ssshow ourselvess on the other bank” :D and told them to bring hobbits back, hinting something about the Ring. So the poor Mordor orcs were left alone and, being outnumbered, had to leave the captive hobbits to Isengarders. Without the Fell Beast being slain, Khamul would have had no excuse not to show up in Rohan. I believe the arrival of a single nazgul would have been enough to make the orcs turn from Isengard to Mordor.

Meanwhile Sauron must have been unaware of all these happenings, believing the Ring was still in Lorien. Then what a surprise! On the 25.02 at Amon Hen someone puts the ring on. Sauron almost pins Frodo down with his Eye (or his palantir). But then, it seems, by cheer luck, he loses Frodo. The fact that he could not follow Frodo or the other hobbits carried to Isengard supports, I believe, Nurvingiel’s opinion that he did not SEE normally the physical world even with the Palantir. So Sauron had no idea where the Ring was till the 5 of March when he saw Pippin in the Palantir. Then he thought that Saruman has got the Ring. After Aragorn had looked into the Palantir (6.03), Sauron believed that Aragorn had got it. By this time Frodo is already at the Morannon (5.03)

But if at Amon Hen, they were within Sauron's range, then how did he lose track of them after the Emyn Muil? The Nazgul was practically on top of them there, and that scene suggests to me that Sauron had more or less been able to follow Frodo and Sam that far. However, he seems to lose their trail in the Dead Marshes, because though they see Nazgul overhead, they aren't too near.
Now about the Nazgul. During the 10 days (25.02-5.03) of doubts, Sauron must have sent several Nazgul out to patrol the area around Amon Hen on both banks. And the Nazgul, as usual, found nothing. One passed right above Frodo at Emin Muil (29.02), another in Dead Marches “wheeled and returned, passing lower now, right above them” (1.03). Actually the nazgul must have felt the ring's presence! But nothing has happened :confused: .
It seems Gollum was wrong saying `Wraiths on wings! … They see everything, everything. Nothing can hide from them…And they tell Him everything.
Well, either they do not see or they do not tell.
Olmer was right that Nazgul behaviour looks suspicious during the early stages of the hunt for the Ring. I can add that it looks no less suspicious later on.

[Nurvingiel]

Wow, awesome post Gordis! You really knitted the different parties of orcs and activities of the Nazgul together brilliantly. You even have dates! That was great. :)

I agree with your analysis of the Amon Hen and Parth Galen goings on. It didn't occur to me before how Sauron might perceive Galadriel's attitude of the Ring. (And he was nearly right! We'll never know exactly how close she was to giving in to temptation.)

I wonder what would have happened had Legolas not shot the Nazgul's fell beast? Probably yet another close call.

About the last part, I think Gollum was paranoid because of his torture in Mordor, and fair enough too. I think, as I said before, that it's an issue as not seeing rather than not telling. Sauron probably wanted to leave poor Gollum with the very distinct impression that there was nothing his lieutenants wouldn't miss, so he might as well report all his information.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gordis, I disagree with you on three things there.
1. I do not think (unless it states somewhere else) that after his departure to search for the ring he did not return to Dol Guldur, as after the Brunien disaster he went back to Barad-Dur, to have his 'wraith re-hab'. I believe he helped in patrolling ME.
2. I think that if there were orcs in Lorien they were more likely keeping tabs on Gollum. I think Sauron was sensible enough not to send troops into Lorien when Galadriel has the Ring in her grasp.
3. I disagree about Sauron and the palantir. Sauron is Maia, thus visible in both worlds. I doubt he needed the palantir to be able to see the physical word.

[Butterbeer]

Gordis, I disagree with you on three things there.
1. I do not think (unless it states somewhere else) that after his departure to search for the ring he did not return to Dol Guldur, as after the Brunien disaster he went back to Barad-Dur, to have his 'wraith re-hab'. I believe he helped in patrolling ME.
2. I think that if there were orcs in Lorien they were more likely keeping tabs on Gollum. I think Sauron was sensible enough not to send troops into Lorien when Galadriel has the Ring in her grasp.
3. I disagree about Sauron and the palantir. Sauron is Maia, thus visible in both worlds. I doubt he needed the palantir to be able to see the physical word.


I agree with 3. ( am not filled in on 1 or 2 to make any call)
The idea Sauron is blind other than in the spirit world is absurd: we know of the Nazgul's sight limitations because their limited "normal" sight is referenced: there is no (correct me if i am wrong) description of Sauron being blind since the ring was cut from his finger: he evidentlly was NOT blind beforehand


also as he shows Denethor sights that make him despair via the palantir (the unassailable might of Mordor, the whole East in Motion etc etc it is a far stretch (as you yourself Gordis recognise i beleive in your posts): it is a far stretch indeed on very little or non existence eveidence to explain him being (blind to the normal physical world) to explain this by having Sauron perhaps controlling Denethor's mind to have him "see" these physical things he couldn't and extrapolate them from his mind so as then to see them himself and then WIPE Denethor's memory or not as deemed fit!

Denethor was not THAT weak of Mind even though he was no match for Sauron, anyway IMO.

I know you are merely posing the questions: and good they are too but i feel the Sauron-the-Blind-man act a bit far fetched and on very thin ice in terms of canonical or any other evidence.

[Gordis]

First of all, I am glad that you agree on Sauron's perception of Galadriel's attitude to the Ring. It is very important to the story that Sauron was not expecting any move out of Lorien at all. That was perhaps the reason for a month's delay in Lorien, apart from the fellowship needing to rest. Galadriel wanted Sauron's spies to become sure of the ring's whereabouts and lessen their vigilance.

I know you are merely posing the questions: and good they are too but i feel the Sauron-the-Blind-man act a bit far fetched and on very thin ice in terms of canonical or any other evidence.

OK! I agree that logically he should be able to see the physical world, so I have nothing to oppose your arguments, Butterbeer, and yours, TD. I am only trying to understand how Sauron has lost track of Frodo and other hobbits when he nearly pinned them down on Amon Hen. Frodo has even put the ring on again less than an hour later!

Maybe Sau decided to take a bath again, just to relax from the tension, eh, Butterbeer? :D

1. I do not think (unless it states somewhere else) that after his departure to search for the ring he did not return to Dol Guldur, as after the Brunien disaster he went back to Barad-Dur, to have his 'wraith re-hab'. I believe he helped in patrolling ME.
2. I think that if there were orcs in Lorien they were more likely keeping tabs on Gollum. I think Sauron was sensible enough not to send troops into Lorien when Galadriel has the Ring in her grasp.
1. You mean that Khamul has not returned to DG after his rehab? Well, we do not know for sure, but I believe he had. Remember the fellowship looking from Cerin Amroth to Dol Guldur? Haldir said: " We fear that now it is inhabited again, and with power sevenfold. A black cloud lies often over it of late." Knowing the Ring was in Lorien, Sauron must have swelled Dol Guldur's garrison, preparing to strike on Lorien. It would be natural to send the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur back to his fortress. As for the other nazgul, they just stayed in M. Morgul, doing nothing, so Khamul was not needed there.

2. No, not in Lorien, sorry if I didn't make it clear. I meant that there were Dol Guldur orcs watching from the other bank of ANDUIN. There had to be orc guards and spies on the Eastern bank. Yes, they were far away, but that explains why they were unable to describe the company properly. They saw three boats going downstream and people in them, but hardly any details. Had they reported FOUR HOBBITS, Khamul (quite allergic to hobbits by this time :rolleyes: ) should have connected them with the Ring immediately and flown directly to Mordor to warn Sauron.

I wonder what would have happened had Legolas not shot the Nazgul's fell beast? Probably yet another close call.
Most probably Khamul would have come to Rohan on his fell beast, scared all the orcs senseless and carried the hobbits to Barad Dur where they would have told everything they knew. Unless there really was an order of Sauron not allowing the nazgul to go to the other bank. Then Khamul would do nothing, IMHO.

About the last part, I think Gollum was paranoid because of his torture in Mordor, and fair enough too. I think, as I said before, that it's an issue as not seeing rather than not telling. Sauron probably wanted to leave poor Gollum with the very distinct impression that there was nothing his lieutenants wouldn't miss, so he might as well report all his information.
Gollum was paranoid for sure, but still…The facts do look suspicious. You really think that not a single one of the Nazgul passing overhead has sensed the Ring? Has not smelled the warm blood in the desert Marches? And take another example, later on. The Witch-King in the Morgul vale clearly sensed the ring's presence, though he was very far from Frodo. And what? He stopped for a time, looked around and then went on. Don't you think he could at least send some orcs to look around immediately? Or send a nazgul to fly around? Or he could warn Sauron and leave the matter to him. But no.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

1. You mean that Khamul has not returned to DG after his rehab? Well, we do not know for sure, but I believe he had. Remember the fellowship looking from Cerin Amroth to Dol Guldur? Haldir said: " We fear that now it is inhabited again, and with power sevenfold. A black cloud lies often over it of late." Knowing the Ring was in Lorien, Sauron must have swelled Dol Guldur's garrison, preparing to strike on Lorien. It would be natural to send the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur back to his fortress. As for the other nazgul, they just stayed in M. Morgul, doing nothing, so Khamul was not needed there.

2. No, not in Lorien, sorry if I didn't make it clear. I meant that there were Dol Guldur orcs watching from the other bank of ANDUIN. There had to be orc guards and spies on the Eastern bank. Yes, they were far away, but that explains why they were unable to describe the company properly. They saw three boats going downstream and people in them, but hardly any details. Had they reported FOUR HOBBITS, Khamul (quite allergic to hobbits by this time :rolleyes: ) should have connected them with the Ring immediately and flown directly to Mordor to warn Sauron.
I think that Khamul was patrolling the Anduin instead of being stationed at Dol Guldur. By the time he had been re-cloaked after his 'swimming lesson' in the Brunien the Ring was already passing near Caradhras. So instead of sending Khamul back to Dol Guldur he sent him to follow to the Ring, that way he would be reasonably near Dol Guldur if any assault was made against it. When the Company entered Lorien he decided to wait on the East Bank as hovering over Lorien for a Month may be a little tiring for his Fell Beast and a little dangerous with the Bows of the Galadhrim.

[Gordis]

So you think that Sauron expected the Ring to be moved further from Lorien. Where to?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No, but I think that Sauron suspected that is it did move from lorien it would move south eastward towards Gondor, not back to Rivendell. As I said before a Nazgûl hovering on his Fell Beast over Lorien for a month would have had it's Fell Beast shot almost immediatly.

[Gordis]

My point was that Sauron believed there would be no move out of Lorien at all. Why would he ever think Galadriel capable of sending the Ring to Minas Tirith? Whould she give it to a man to wield? To Denethor? No way! and Sauron was right. He never suspected that they had decided to destroy the ring. So he did not send a nazgul either to hover over Lorien (actually I never suggested that!), or to hide on the east bank for all eternity. How do you picture it? The Fell beast needed to eat and be tended and so on... And the nazgul? Orcs would have laughed at him hiding in bushes alongside them. And what for? Nazgul do not see well, and sensing the ring or smelling it from the other bank is impossible. The river is a barrier to Ring perception, it is clearly stated. So of course Khamul was in Dol Guldur ruling it, and was fetched by orcs on emergency.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think Sauron was going to take any chances, he had waited long anough to regain the Ring, I don't think he was going to let it get away from him becaus ehe didn't post a Nazgûl outside Lorien when he easily could have done.

[Gordis]

Well, TD, the Ring DID get away from him. If there were a nazgul watching over Lorien borders, then, upon spotting the fellowships departure, he would have flown directly to Sauron and all the nine nazgul and a lot of troops would have been waiting for them on both shores. That would be the end of the quest.
The fellowship made it to Part Galen in nine days. In nine days a nazgul had time to fly to Mordor and many thousand of orcs march to Rauros. No, the enemy acted so weakly at Part Galen because all this came as a surprise for them.

[Gordis]

By the way, about Saruman. Unlike Sauron, he must have made an educated guess about the quest's goal. He was a member of the White Counsil, so he must have heard Elrond and Gandalf exclaim: "What a pity the ring was not destroyed ages ago.." So he was prepared and watched the fellowship progress with the help of birds and his Palantir. But he has not warned Sauron, but instead sent about 80 orcs to Part Galen.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think it helped that he also knew Galadriel. He knew she was noble and would not except the Ring for herself just as Gandalf did.
A side question. Why were orcs from Barad-Dûr there aswell if Sauron didn't think about any move from Lorien?

[Gordis]

A side question. Why were orcs from Barad-Dûr there aswell if Sauron didn't think about any move from Lorien?
First of all, IMHO, you cannot tell the orcs from Dol Guldur from those of Barad Dur as they must have had the same sigil of the Red Eye. Dol-Guldur was filled with Mordor orcs sent there since 2951. Only Morgul orcs had another sigil, traditionally, as the place existed 1000 years without Sauron.

However, Grishnakh's orcs really must have been from Mordor. But they were too few for a company specially sent by Sauron in order to capture the ring . I think they were guarding the East bank near Rauros, or the main South-North road on the Eastern bank. This spot is closer to Morannon than to Dol Guldur. Khamul must have mustered them and sent over the river. I think he gave Grishnakh some hints about the Ring, as Sauron himself was paranoid and never told anybody but the nazgul about it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It says in one of the Appendices that Grishnakh was the Captain of the orcs of Barad-Dûr. I think he got the hints about the Ring because he was part of the 'Let's all torture Gollum' party.

[Butterbeer]

I think its clear Saruman wanted to become a power and to obtain the One: equally clear to me is that only one (as Gandalf states) can wield the One: and for all that Saruman says to gandalf earlier when he reveals he is Suruman of many colours etc regarding "joining with powers arising in the east): equally clear to me is that Saruman would rather in the end see it destroyed and take his luck in the Post ring world than see Sauron regain his power and become at best a lackey or quite possibly enslaved or tortured by Sauron as and when he (SAU) has the time and with the power of the Ring he delves a little bit further into Saruman's mind and examines his thoughts and motives!

for example:
why did you not mention - indeed Must have worked very hard to shield from me the thought that there was indeed a chance or even a high probability they would attempt to destroy the ring - and hence also destroy your "great buddy and ally" sauron!!)


"Eye Eye!" he'd a said with an evil grin ...

Therefore i agree Saruman must have considered the possibility of them atempting to destroy the ring and no matter how much credibility he may have given the thought NEVER mentioned it (indeed as a i said before MUST have concentrated hard to not reveal it!) even when in trouble after sauron finds out he has tried to get the Hobbits, his Orcs had over-ruled Sau's orcs and that he was no longer communicating in the palantir ... i.e he is in trouble with Mordor, looking like the traitor he is.
(he could have told the visiting nazgul even without the Palantir.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think the mere fact that it was a hobbit weilding the Ring not a powerful warrior was enough to think that there was a very good chance that it was going to be destroyed. What would be the point in having a Hobbit weilding the Ring when Gandalf could?

[Gordis]

Therefore i agree Saruman must have considered the possibility of them atempting to destroy the ring and no matter how much credibility he may have given the thought NEVER mentioned it (indeed as a i said before MUST have concentrated hard to not reveal it!) even when in trouble after sauron finds out he has tried to get the Hobbits, his Orcs had over-ruled Sau's orcs and that he was no longer communicating in the palantir ... i.e he is in trouble with Mordor, looking like the traitor he is.(he could have told the visiting nazgul even without the Palantir.
Definitely Saruman was in BIG trouble with Mordor. Apart from what you mentioned, Butterbeer, it is clear from the Hunt for the Ring (UT) that already in September 3018 Saruman tried to conceal from the nazgul his knowledge about the Shire location. The nazgul learned of his treachery even before they came to the Shire. Sauron learned of it as soon as the first nazgul returned to Barad Dur, sometime in late October-November 3018. So before the capture of the hobbits Saruman was already in trouble with Mordor, but didn't know about it. After he had failed to get the Ring he had no excuses to offer Sauron at all. The sensible thing for him would have been to repent, as Gandalf offered, but his pride won.
for example: why did you not mention - indeed Must have worked very hard to shield from me the thought that there was indeed a chance or even a high probability they would attempt to destroy the ring - and hence also destroy your "great buddy and ally" sauron!!)
"Eye Eye!" he'd a said with an evil grin ... Actually isn't it funny, that Sau has failed to guess the Quest's goal? Not too smart he was IMHO and too confident in his power.
He believed that through the Palantir he could easily read ALL of Saruman's thoughts. But no, there were very important matters Saruman was able to conceal. On the other hand Sauron hardly asked him directly about Galadriel's plans, in the way Butterbeer has visualized above.

The same with Pippin. If Sauron were able to see ALL of his mind, the quest would have been doomed. If Sauron asked him directly: What are you going to do with the ring? - he would have told about Orodruin. Instead Sauron asked only: Who are you? -a wrong question.

The same with the nazgul, IMHO. Sauron believed that having the Nine rings and equipped with the Eye, he could read ALL of the nazgul minds, and he was right to an extent, but there still remained a possibility for them to shield some thoughts from him.
My take on the matter is this: If Sauron after Gollum's revelations had put the Witch-King's ring on and fixed him with the Eye and asked him directly: "And now, Witchy, my darling, tell me where IS the Shire?" the Witch-King would have been compelled to tell him. But as Sauron hadn't suspected that the WK knew about the Shire's location from his time in Angmar, he didn't ask directly. And that was a BIG mistake. Because after having lied (by omission to venture the info), the WK and the other 8 became most interested NOT to let Sauron have the Ring, because otherwise they would have to answer for all the lies and omissions as well.

[Olmer]

You have some worthy of note points in your disagreements, but I want to stress one angle on Sauron's attitude towards the Ring.
As I was previously saying , Sauron's aim was not to get the Ring, but to MOVE the Ring within the grasp of Elves. Nazgul did their job, driving the Ring with the ringbearer out of the hiding place and towards elve's domains.

He wouldn't send the troops into Lorien, because he EXPECTED the arrival of the Ring into Galadriel's grasp. He did not need to ask about Galadriel’s plans. He KNOWS them; upon their frequent meetings in Eregion he happened to know her pretty close, he know about her pride, arrogance and hunger of power.
As a matter of fact, as I suggested before, this ring was made by him, having particularly Galadriel in mind.One little episode kind of confirmed my suggestion.When Pippin looked in palantir and saw Sauron, who thought that the Ring is in Orthank. What did the Dark Lord do? He was laughing! What is so funny in the situation when somebody has taken your life-sustaining device? It's equal to if you badly needed a heart transplant, and somebody just took this donated to you organ. Will it be a laughing matter? I don't think so!
Why Sauron found this situation humorous? Because he is saying “Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him!� (TTT,�The Palantir�) He is not saying “It is mine, belongs to me�, he is telling him that the Ring was intended for somebody else use, but not for Saruman.
Another point is in the word “dainty�- it means “a small exquisite thing�, but this word is commonly used when we are talking about women little trinkets:rings, charms, earrings and etc.
Certainly, it will be amusing to imagine the old, gray and quite no-nonsense man is trying to fit on something which belongs to woman. I quite agree with Sauron’s viewpoint.

But Galadriel wouldn’t be called the smartest elf in ME for nothing ! She perceived his plan and she contradict it with her cunning “design�.She let the Ring out of Lorien, just to stage it disappearance later. But her plan backfired too. Because of Boromir, Frodo put the ring too soon and disappeared. From this moment both of them, Sauron and Galadriel, have lost control of the situation.Galadriel had nothing to do, but “to go with the flow� and Sauron, being busy with war preparation, completely lost the track of the Ring.

[Butterbeer]

very interesting Olmer

my take on the palantir and Pippin scene and with regard to the Dainty was that Sauron was reffering to the Hobbit he perceived captured by Saruman and at Orthanc being forced to look into the stone for amusement etc NOT that Saruman had obtained the One!

this explains what he finds amusing and why he laughs and thinks "its in the bag" rather than being clever and pressing the Hobbit there and then

I'm very interested to know more why you propose that Sauron wanted to ensare galadriel with the ring? (as opposed to getting his hands on it)
Would he then be able to control the three and their users? We know galadriel was wearing her ring by the Fountain and was actively using it to maintain Lorien ...

surely though Saruman with the ring would be a potentially dangerous opponent? (esp within Orthanc) given enough time? Saruman seems to beleive this at least as does gandalf (unless we accept the various arguments that gandalf deliberately wanted to go via Moria etc)

personally i like the idea that the Nazgul were as far as possible self-serving and the WK in particular not un-ambitious:
though for me the major problem with this is IF the WK and the nine in general were not being 100% in their search for the ring for Sauron etc: why did not the Witch King desire to get hold of the One itself and for himself?: what is stopping him being all conquering?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Olmer, I personally completley disagree with you, but there is one quote which supports what you are saying.
When Frodo asks Galadriel what she wishes will happen she replies
"I wish that whatever shall be, shall be."
This could either imply that she loves her Ring that she would sacrifce ME's peace for it or that she wishes the Ring for herself.

[Gordis]

As I was previously saying , Sauron's aim was not to get the Ring, but to MOVE the Ring within the grasp of Elves. Nazgul did their job, driving the Ring with the ringbearer out of the hiding place and towards elve's domains. As a matter of fact, as I suggested before, this ring was made by him, having particularly Galadriel in mind.One little episode kind of confirmed my suggestion. When Pippin looked in palantir and saw Sauron, who thought that the Ring is in Orthank. What did the Dark Lord do? He was laughing! …Another point is in the word “dainty�-
…Frodo put the ring too soon and disappeared. From this moment both of them, Sauron and Galadriel, have lost control of the situation .Galadriel had nothing to do, but “to go with the flow� and Sauron, being busy with war preparation, completely lost the track of the Ring.
Hi, Olmer, here you are again with your "The One as a wedding ring" concept :) .

As far as I remember the main facts to support it were:

1. The nazgul acted strangely during the hunt for the Ring, as if they didn't want to get the Ring at all
2. Sauron has sent 40 orcs and no nazgul to Part Galen while Saurman sent 80 orcs.
3 "dainty" + Saurons's cheery mood when he met Pippin in the Palantir -see above

As for 2, I have tried to show in my previous posts how the Part Galen events must have looked from Sauron's and nazgul POV. Sauron was caught by surprise, not expecting any move out of Lorien, rather then sending a weak orc company deliberately.

As for 3, I agree with Butterbeer that "dainty" referred to Pippin not to the Ring. Gandalf explained the incident to Pippin: "He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly" I think now, upon rereading Gandalf's explanations of the palantir incident, that Sauron never believed Saruman has got the Ring.

Now for the 1. I agree with you that the nazgul's actions look suspicious during the hunt for the Ring (UT) and during the hunt in the Shire and down to the Bruinen ford. But I believe that they were self-serving, concealing matters from Sauron, rather than acted in this way on his orders.
You state yourself that from the moment of Part Galen Sauron lost control of the situation. But then wouldn't he send the nazgul to search for the Ring in earnest? But no, the nazgul acted in the same strange way when the Ring was on the East bank moving towards Mordor, even when it was in Mordor itself! Anybody knowing the Ring was already in Mordor, could guess the goal of the quest :eek: . So Sauron couldn't know of it, while the nazgul DID know of it, at least they traced it to the Morgul vale and Ungol Pass. (see my previous post). But destroying the Ring suited their plans (if not Sauron's :evil: ) so they continued their "game".

So, sorry, Olmer, your Sauron-not-wanting the Ring concept doesn't seem plausible to me.

[Gordis]

personally i like the idea that the Nazgul were as far as possible self-serving and the WK in particular not un-ambitious:
though for me the major problem with this is IF the WK and the nine in general were not being 100% in their search for the ring for Sauron etc: why did not the Witch King desire to get hold of the One itself and for himself?: what is stopping him being all conquering?
What is stopping the WK? IMHO, his profound understanding of the ring-scheme and mechanism, as well as his realistic estimate of Sauron's power. The Witch-King was very clever and not at all cheeky or overconfident. He always avoided unnecessary and dangerous confrontations (like with Glorfindel).

The WK was fully aware of Sauron's inherent power and had not tried to confront him directly even when the Necromancer had no rings, while the WK most probably still had his own and all the military power of Angmar at his back.

Tolkien is quite definite that, in a confrontation, pretty much anyone would have handed Sauron the ring at once: "In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn." (Letter #246). The WK was a powerful immortal being, but he was at a greatest disadvantage in such a confrontation as he was enslaved to his own Ring which Sauron himself held. ("through their nine rings(which he held) [Sauron] had primary control of their wills..." (Letter #246)

Sauron sending the Nazgul for the Ring was confident that: "if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master" (UT) I think Sauron had reasons to believe that and was right. Not only because of the Nine he held, but also because of the will of the One Ring to return to its Master. The Ring was possibly more powerful in itself than Sauron was. It had a mind of its own. It surely had control over the Ringless nazgul. "Precious is their Master" says Gollum.
Because of all of this the nazgul avoided at all coasts to approach the Ring or to take physical possession of it. I believe they could not even throw the Ring into Orodruin, much less wield it against Sauron. Otherwise why didn't the WK grab Frodo at Weathertop, ring and all? Why didn't he cut the ring from his finger?

Now about the Eye. Doubtless the nazgul keenly felt the Eye when it was directed at them. So IMHO when Sauron was not watching them, they did nothing, and while he was looking, they sprang into action like at Weathertop or at the Ford.

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=gordis]
The WK was a powerful immortal being, but he was at a greatest disadvantage in such a confrontation as he was enslaved to his own Ring which Sauron himself held. ("through their nine rings(which he held) [Sauron] had primary control of their wills..." (Letter #246)




But surely if the WK had had the one and was not immediately in the presence of Sauron: in fact was in the North so it would take time for sauron to attempt to overwhelm him in conventional terms: if he had the One: surely then the nine would obey their new master (the One) my question is IMO the Wk would have been able-enough to eventually master the One and therefore control ther Nine and not the other way round?

Wether he would have had time to do this i'm not sure: but god help any ammisaries or Orcs that Sauron sends to apprehend the Witch King wielding the One! Sauron himself would have had to get out the Jacuuzi himself for once and venture North me thinks.

Could not the WK wielding the One have negated the effect of the Nine? You state ( i think?) that the greater store of power is in the ring itself: we know the WK is sufficently powerful and willful to attempt to master the ring: my point is IF he did, he'd be hard to stop!

[Gordis]

Could not the WK wielding the One have negated the effect of the Nine? You state ( i think?) that the greater store of power is in the ring itself: we know the WK is sufficently powerful and willful to attempt to master the ring: my point is IF he did, he'd be hard to stop!
No, Butterbeer, I am afraid you are wrong. The WK would have been VERY EASY to stop. Sauron had only to make a short trip to Orodruin and throw the Witch-King's ring there. Then the WK would die - go off to Mandos and beyond - forever. The nazgul existed while the 9 Rings existed.

And I think that even "IF" was impossible. I am doubtful that the WK would have been able to master the One without his own ring. Without their rings, the nazgul were "incomplete", part of their power contained in the 9 Rings. Far away from the rings they were much weaker. And I doubt that even the possession of the One could have shielded the WK from the primary control of his nazgul ring.

Anyway, Sauron (who knew all about the Rings) has preferred sending the Ringwraiths to the Shire instead of sending any mortals, even very loyal mortals (Mouth etc.). Therefore he believed that the WK was an impossible candidate for the new Ringlord.

IMO, the minute Sauron took the 9 rings from the nazgul, they lost all hope to ever be free in ME. They could not even die, as long as the 9 existed and had power. Therefore they tried hard to escape beyond by "helping" to destroy the One.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with you Gordis, but this does bring up another question. What happened to the WK after he was stabbed by Eowyn? He could not have been killed as only the destruction of the One or his one of the Nine could do that. Did he return to Mordor with no power , shapeless and lifeless?

[Gordis]

Yes I believe you are right, TD. As far as I remember, Tolkien has written somewhere in the Letters that the WK was "rendered powerless" or something like that, not dead and gone. So I think, that after being stabbed by Eowyn, the WK has become not the "undead" (a spirit+invisible body) but just spirit without any interaction with the physical world. His spirit, however could not leave the ME being bound to his ring. Perhaps his spirit returned to Mordor, perhaps not, but it is not that important, as in 10 days the Ring was destroyed, the 9 rings lost their power and the nazgul were at last free to leave ME and go beyond.

Isn't it ironic that the ringwraiths were perhaps the only children of Illuvatar to finally see death as a Gift?

[Butterbeer]

No, Butterbeer, I am afraid you are wrong. The WK would have been VERY EASY to stop. Sauron had only to make a short trip to Orodruin and throw the Witch-King's ring there. Then the WK would die - go off to Mandos and beyond - forever. The nazgul existed while the 9 Rings existed.

And I think that even "IF" was impossible. I am doubtful that the WK would have been able to master the One without his own ring. Without their rings, the nazgul were "incomplete", part of their power contained in the 9 Rings. Far away from the rings they were much weaker. And I doubt that even the possession of the One could have shielded the WK from the primary control of his nazgul ring.

Anyway, Sauron (who knew all about the Rings) has preferred sending the Ringwraiths to the Shire instead of sending any mortals, even very loyal mortals (Mouth etc.). Therefore he believed that the WK was an impossible candidate for the new Ringlord.

IMO, the minute Sauron took the 9 rings from the nazgul, they lost all hope to ever be free in ME. They could not even die, as long as the 9 existed and had power. Therefore they tried hard to escape beyond by "helping" to destroy the One.



Well you seem very set in your ways for someone taking an investigative historical perspective on Middle earth! :p

This is not to say your'e wrong: you are much better read than me (and the bulk of my reading was long ago anyway):for me this is just a what if question but i find it odd in terms of all we appear to know of the rings of power and the heirachy Sauron intended and the avowed purpose and powers of the One, that the witch king (IF) mastered the One containing sauron's greater part of power, and wearing and wielding the One ring, the master ring, the ring to rule all the other rings,

A) would suddenly die wearing and master of THE ONE because a lesser ring was destroyed

B) IF the WK had mastered the One he controls the nine ( i think you would be pushed to argue against that? - he says tongue in cheek)
and also if sauron is wearing any of the rings controls him through the rings:if he takes off all his rings then the WK would be too powerful wearing and wiedling the full mught of the One and presumably with full control of the other 8 mounted Nazgula and their Morgul troops could quite possibly stop Suaron destroying the Nine rings anyway.

IMHO poeple like the Mouth and most other captains in Mordor would very soon see which way the wind is blowing and re-align to support the Ring lord: sauron would have (potentially) big trouble destroying the Witch King's ring: but as i said above i believe (and this is the BIG IF) IF he had mastered the One: destroying the WK's ring would be ineffective: else what power does the One have???

[Olmer]

Sauron had only to make a short trip to Orodruin and throw the Witch-King's ring there. Then the WK would die - go off to Mandos and beyond - forever. The nazgul existed while the 9 Rings existed.

I don't think so.The Nine were made in different place and under different circumstances.They were "corrupted" by Saruman by connecting them to the controlling ring, but it' s it. In a way like a hacker sends a virus to control different PC's systems: they will be completely screwed up and respond to his manipulation, but the destruction of commanding program doesn't automatically means that in the same way we can eliminate "a worm" in all infected PC. Each system will respond only if it will be treated in accordance with manufacturer's design.
I think even with destruction of the One Nazgul, free of any control , will continue to exist in kind of bodiless form, but nevertheless present, untill the secret of destruction of the Nine Rings, which (alas!!) Celebrimbor took to the grave, could be somehow found.
Isn't it ironic that the ringwraiths were perhaps the only children of Illuvatar to finally see death as a Gift?
Yeh! Proves once more the old proverb:"Beware what you wish for, you might get it!" :cool:

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=Olmer]I don't think so.The Nine were made in different place and under different circumstances.They were "corrupted" by Saruman by connecting them to the controlling ring, but it' s it. In a way like a hacker sends a virus to control different PC's systems: they will be completely screwed up and respond to his manipulation, but the destruction of commanding program doesn't automatically means that in the same way we can eliminate "a worm" in all infected PC. Each system will respond only if it will be treated in accordance with manufacturer's design.
I think even with destruction of the One Nazgul, free of any control , will continue to exist in kind of bodiless form, but nevertheless present, untill the secret of destruction of the Nine Rings, which (alas!!) Celebrimbor took to the grave, could be somehow found.



If the nine rings were not destroyed with the destruction of the One: would they then be free and wholesome to use? maybe the nine (OR EIGHT) WRAITHS became in-corporal, the rings dropped off and Aragorn ended up wearing all nine in his long reign?
That would have worked for Arwen maybe?
obviously Aragorn didn't: but would he have given the chance?
With the one destoyed and the nine freed (If thats the case) would the nine have given longer life (all nine?)

Sorry Gordis couldn't think of any more easy questions for you just now! :D

What do you think Olmer (IF) the Witch King could master the One hypothetically could he overcome Sauron?

[Olmer]

1.If the nine rings were not destroyed with the destruction of the One: would they then be free and wholesome to use?
With the one destoyed and the nine freed (If thats the case) would the nine have given longer life (all nine?)

2.(IF) the Witch King could master the One hypothetically could he overcome Sauron?
IMHO:
1. No. The Rings got corrupted and can be undone by the maker, who was not Sauron.The rings will continue to bring the damage to anyone who will wear them, but also, in the mean time ,they will enhance the bearer's natural abilities, which means cleverness, understanding, skill to command people without ordering them and, of course, longer life..
2. I think, as gordis already mentioned, WK assessed the situation realistically. This why he never went for the One ,even at the time when it has been in the close proximity.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

There was also the Dead of Dunharrow who would have looked at it that way.
What do you think happened to them after they died? They were evil and had served the shadow. Would the same things happen to the Easterlings and Haradrim?

[Butterbeer]

i think the dead of Dunharrow found peace: they broke a specific tryst with Elendil (or Isildur anyway one of the two) and were cursed: they were then held to have fulfilled they're oath by the heir of Isildur by fighting in the War of the ring: and thus were granted peace: its a bit hard on the whole people though to be held accountable to the singular decision of the King: not a great vote in favour of the Monarchy this one if you were one of the innocent un-dead etc!


BTW: Gordis & Olmer: ok on the WK, i can see why he didn't: my question was hypothetically put: it was if he did, what do you reckon his chance would have been? : if in North when acquired it and could master it reasonably quickly?

[Gordis]

I find it odd in terms of all we appear to know of the rings of power and the heirachy Sauron intended and the avowed purpose and powers of the One, that the witch king (IF) mastered the One containing sauron's greater part of power, and wearing and wielding the One ring, the master ring, the ring to rule all the other rings,
A) would suddenly die wearing and master of THE ONE because a lesser ring was destroyed
B) IF the WK had mastered the One he controls the nine ( i think you would be pushed to argue against that? - he says tongue in cheek)
and also if sauron is wearing any of the rings controls him through the rings:if he takes off all his rings then the WK would be too powerful wearing and wiedling the full mught of the One and presumably with full control of the other 8 mounted Nazgula and their Morgul troops could quite possibly stop Suaron destroying the Nine rings anyway.
IMHO poeple like the Mouth and most other captains in Mordor would very soon see which way the wind is blowing and re-align to support the Ring lord: sauron would have (potentially) big trouble destroying the Witch King's ring: but as i said above i believe (and this is the BIG IF) IF he had mastered the One: destroying the WK's ring would be ineffective: else what power does the One have???
I am sorry , Butterbeer, if I am too pushy, and I really think most of your arguments are quite well-researched and thought-provoking.

A) I really do believe that the WK will die if his ring is destroyed or rendered powerless by the destruction of the One. Here is my reasoning:
The bearers of the Three did not die when their rings became powerless - but they were Elves or maiar, immortal beings all the same. Bilbo has aged immediately and drastically after the destruction of the One, because he regained his real age - 129 years, very old for a hobbit but not unnaturally so. I believe Gollum would have died anyway when the ring was destroyed, because he would become 600-years old hobbit - that means a dead hobbit. If the WK never had a Ring, he would have been dead for 4000 years already. It was his Ring that permitted him to stay undead for so long. With the ring destroyed, the cause that altered the natural course of events would be gone, so everything will return to normal and the WK will become 4500 year old man -so he would be dead. I really can't see how possession of the One could alter this :confused: .
B) How can I argue against that? - no way- it is canon! :)
All the rest is very true if the Witch-King got the One while he still had his own ring. Then the Witch King had good chances to overcome Sauron. It is certainly true in the case if any other than a nazgul mastered the One. But, I think, that Sauron's possession of the 9 was crippling for the nazgul, I believe Sauron literally held part of their souls and their very lives in his hands.
The Nine were made in different place and under different circumstances.They were "corrupted" by Saruman by connecting them to the controlling ring, but it' s it. …I think even with destruction of the One Nazgul, free of any control , will continue to exist in kind of bodiless form, but nevertheless present, untill the secret of destruction of the Nine Rings, which (alas!!) Celebrimbor took to the grave, could be somehow found.

I have to disagree, Olmer. The Three lost their power with the destruction of the One, even though they were not corrupted and, as well as the Nine, made by Celebrimbor, not Sauron. Result: Lorien had faded, Elves went West. It is strange to think that the Nine would remain powerful after the destruction of the One, while the Three lost their power. And when the Nine loose all their magic, they become just trinkets, and all they have wrought is destroyed. They have wrought immortal men - the men die as is natural for their kind.
As for Sauron being unable to destroy the rings… :eek: Are you joking? Destroying a thing is in general much easier than making it :rolleyes: . I can destroy a most sophisticated computer in the world but I can't make even a simple calculator. Frodo has needed no instruction on Ring-making when he was sent to destroy the Ring. We know that some of the seven were destroyed by dragon fire. So I believe Orodruin's flame will be enough for the Nine. And Celebrimbor took to the grave the secret of the rings making, not their destruction.

[Gordis]

i think the dead of Dunharrow found peace: they broke a specific tryst with Elendil (or Isildur anyway one of the two) and were cursed: they were then held to have fulfilled they're oath by the heir of Isildur by fighting in the War of the ring: and thus were granted peace: its a bit hard on the whole people though to be held accountable to the singular decision of the King: not a great vote in favour of the Monarchy this one if you were one of the innocent un-dead etc!
Yes, I totally agree. Cursing the whole people was wicked, and Isildur was not sufficiently punished for it, IMHO.
I believe that everyone has gone beyond and found peace. Yes, surely the Dead of Dunharrow, but also the ringwraiths, and the Barrow-wights and the wraiths taken by a Morgul-knife and the spirits of the Dead Marches. All of them had their hell in ME, IMHO.

BTW: Gordis & Olmer: ok on the WK, i can see why he didn't: my question was hypothetically put: it was if he did, what do you reckon his chance would have been? : if in North when acquired it and could master it reasonably quickly?
My take on it, no chances at all. Much would I liked it to be otherwise and my Lord to win;) , but no. Not while Sau held the WK's Ring.

[Butterbeer]

Well good points in general but i still fail to see how the lesser power of the ninth ring (as it were) that keeps the wraith as undead still, would be material in any way IF The Witch KING WAS WEARING THE ONE: the wearer of this ring as you point out in lesser beings such as Bilbo and Gollum was kept alive beyond normality: this was one major power of all the great rings of power: in the case of the Witch king he would have the greater part of Sauron's spirit on his finger! a powersource and spirit so sustainable Sauron was eclipsed for many many years untold when it was cut off from his finger!

IF (and sorry to labour this but IF he HAD mastered the ring i do not think Sauron would or could have been allowed to destroy his (wk's)original ring: but even if he did: he (WK) was wearing the One and would still exist IMHO while he still wore it through the power of the ONE!

its an interesting point to view whether he would be the same entity or just how he would exist: but to me there can be no doubt that the power of the one on his finger makes him impervious to any destruction of the lesser ring he was originally enslaved to: i believe Olmer made this point quite well with his Hacker analogy.

For sure without the ONE ring on his finger, the destruction in Orodrin (if possible: my feeling is it would be if Sauron could get it there (past the new Ring lord's forces) of his original ring would be the end for him.


Either way it would be a risky strategy though: WK in North near to Saruman, Elrond, Gandalf, Galdariel et al: destroy the WK by ring in fire WHILE he wears the one ring!
1) Hope this doesn't in turn destroy the One.
2) If not it falls where it is from his non-existent finger somewhere in the North with all and sundry urgently looking for it


Best
BB :D

[Gordis]

Well, Butterbeer, You certainly have a valid POV here! I still do think differently (oh nazgul stubbornness ;) , but I have no new arguments.

Let us ask others: Dear Mooters what do you think of Butterbeer's IF question :
IF the Witch King obtained and could master the One, hypothetically could he overcome Sauron (while Sauron had the WK's own ring in his possession)?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think BB has a good point. If the Ring gave Gollum unnatural long life, why can't it to the same for the WK? Think of it like a life support machine in a hospital. A man is lying in a coma(sp) with a life support machine. He is given a stronger one and his old one is destroyed. Would he die? No, he now has a new, stronger 'supply' of life.

[Gordis]

Well it seems nobody else but we four (Butterbeer, Olmer, TD and me) are interested in the subject. Sad, as I am VERY interested in it.

I think BB has a good point. If the Ring gave Gollum unnatural long life, why can't it do the same for the WK? Think of it like a life support machine in a hospital. A man is lying in a coma(sp) with a life support machine. He is given a stronger one and his old one is destroyed. Would he die? No, he now has a new, stronger 'supply' of life.
I am sure your analogy is valid while the person in question is yet alive. For instance Bilbo could theoretically be given another Ring (elven, nazgul whatever) and continue to live without ageing.
But IMHO the nazgul are not really living anymore, but wraiths. Some magical change has occured due to the Ring's influence (wraithification). So it is not a physical world question anymore, but a magical question. And none of us, sadly, is too good in magic :evil:
However, I shall try (very lamely of course) explain my take on the matter. And I can't be sure I am right. :confused:
The rings had individuality. They had different names and different stones. Each ring performed a magic wraitification of a particular man. He became a wraith bound to a particular ring. That bond continued to exist even when a nazgul was devoid of his Ring. So possession of the Ring was not necessary anymore to the wraith's existence. That is already a difference from ring's action on a living man, before wraithification has occurred. The nature of the bond between a ringwraith and his ring is totally unknown, but I believe some part of the nazgul's fea passed into the Ring, in the same way as the One contained part of Sauron's fea ( part of his will and his power). IMHO that's why Sauron "died" when the One was destroyed, though he had 9 rings and 3 dwarven to act as a life support machine. So destruction of each nazgul ring brings the destruction of the nazgul, part of who's fea was contained within. And no other ring he might possess instead could change that, IMHO.

The same I believe is true of Elven Rings. For instance: Suppose Galadriel's Ring -Nenya- is destroyed, but Gandalf gives her his Narya instead. Will Lorien fade? I believe yes, as it was a magic work of Nenya, not Narya. She could build a new timeless kingdom with Narya instead, but it will be a new one and different.
Sorry if it is a bit vague...

[Butterbeer]

Thanks TD

and Gordis (ref: stubborness)
well i don't want to say anything unnatural or anything against my Ancestors but you do suspect that somewhere along the line there was a bit of MULE in the old genes myself :eek:


EDIT: time-lapse: just seen above post:

well yeah very interested myself but its far too complicated for my current mood at the mo' so i'll come back to it another time ( vaguely though on what you say above: doesn't this agree with both TD and myself: at least in the fact that the sauron with all those other rings left on his hand was wiped out: but that was because of suddenly missing the ONE! (the more powerful life support machine to continue the analogy) therefore IF[SIZE=7] WK had the One does this by your own argument not entirely prove the Point? as you inadvertandlty state the One is worth more to sauron historically (as proven) than all the other rings combined he had on his finger at the time???


best BB :)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Well it seems nobody else but we four (Butterbeer, Olmer, TD and me) are interested in the subject. Sad, as I am VERY interested in it.i am excepting that i can not be on the old moot as often as is my wont. :o

[Butterbeer]

what's your view LCOU?

C'mon don't let the fascists (or whoever) keep you off the great and glorious Moo, man!

(mind you i have a lot to do myself: technically most of the time i am on the moot i am at work so it works quite well generally) ;)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i don't think if the witch-king had gained the one ring that he would have used it against sauron, for, IIRC, his will was totally bent to sauron whilst the latter held the former's ring however i feel that if his will was not bent thusly, the witch-king may have been able to summon the power necessary, and if he had the ring, the others (of the nine) would have displayed deference to him, rather than to sauron

[Butterbeer]

i don't think if the witch-king had gained the one ring that he would have used it against sauron, for, IIRC, his will was totally bent to sauron whilst the latter held the former's ring however i feel that if his will was not bent thusly, the witch-king may have been able to summon the power necessary, and if he had the ring, the others (of the nine) would have displayed deference to him, rather than to sauron


well quite!
and IMHO why was the WK's "will bent totally toward Sauron?"

(FORGETING FOR A MOMMENT THE VERY PERSUAIVE ARGUMENTS THAT THE WK in particular was actually NOT that realiably behind Sauron but actually quite, as far as possible and in his own well judged interests, self serving)

because of his (sauron's) inherrent ruling power (a portion of the Power the ring contained: CANON) and power over the rings he had on his hand at this time)

Point is: IF the Witch KING not only had BUT MASTERED the ONE ring, the ring to rule them all ( the greater part of Sauron's spirit) the very DOOM of Middle-Earth,

whose will would be bent to who?
Who with their petty rings would be on bended Knee? Whose will bent to whom?

What say you?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i should really be doing my archaeology assignment!
i think that if the WK had been able to master the one ring, then whosoever held any lesser ring would fall prey to him, however, I do not believe he would be able to master it, despite his sorcerous abilities, he was only but a man, the worst one to attempt to master the ring would be gandalf, if he had taken it for his own in the hallway of bag end, then all middle earth would have fallen to him, the nine would have obeyed his will, as would sauron, and if elrond and galadriel continued to hold their rings, they would have obeyed also, and through sauron, gandalf could manipulate and hold denethor and saruman, through the palantiri

[Gordis]

i should really be doing my archaeology assignment!
i think that if the WK had been able to master the one ring, then whosoever held any lesser ring would fall prey to him, however, I do not believe he would be able to master it, despite his sorcerous abilities, he was only but a man … Thank you for joining the discussion, LCOU! But isn't magic more enticing than archaeology? :D
Actually I believe that the Witch-King wouldn't have any problem with mastering the Ring. He was no mortal anymore and a very powerful sorcerer, and quite familiar with rings. (The One hardly differs from one of the Nine more than a Mac from a PC :D ). His will was honed to the domination og others. (cf Galadriel to Frodo: "Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others"). So the WK's problem was elsewhere, I believe.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gordis, Sauron put part of himself into the One during its making, this is not so with the Nazgûl. As I said earlier, if one Life Spport Machine was recieved the other was needless. The WK would have a stronger supply of life, the weaker supply wouldn't be needed.

[Gordis]

Ok, TD, let us forget for a moment life support machines and wraithification.
Let us approach the problem thus:

Here is the Dark Lord Sauron in the Dark bathtub in the Dark Tower in the Dark land of Mordor :D . He has just learned that the One Ring is in "the Shire" in possession of a "Baggins-creature". What he fears most of all? That some powerful dude claims his Ring, masters it and becomes a new Dark Lord.

For the moment his fears are much allayed because "Baggins" must be a creature of the same sort as Gollum, weak and undersized, no good for a wannabe Ringlord (see UT).The first he sends after the Ring is Gollum. With him Sauron will have no problems: even if Gollum claims the Ring, he will not be able to master and wield it. But Gollum has not returned. So who is the next for the secret mission?

Sau scratches his dark head (or the back of his eyeball) :rolleyes: and thinks who is to be send after the Ring. :confused: Who will not become the next Ringlord?
-Mouth? Mouth is loyal, but he would be tempted, well, anyone will be. Mouth as a wannabe Ringlord will be a difficult enemy. - Some lesser men? Dunlanding? Orc? No, even for that Sau is too paranoid... (scratch-scratch... :rolleyes: )
- Ahh, I got it! I will send the nazgul. All the Nine! No matter they are almost blind, unused to such missions, fear water, daylight, etc. scare off everyone and not exactly inspire confidence in mortals whom they are supposed to question...
So, after much thought (UT) he sends the Witch-King -a very powerful immortal sorcerer, familiar with using rings of Power (actually an ideal new Ringlord) - backed by 8 associates, even while he was afraid to send much weaker creatures. Is Sau THAT DUMB? There must have been a VERY GOOD REASON for Sau to believe the WK will not even try to become a new Ringlord. He must have had a weapon against Witchy and a very powerful one. And this weapon was nothing else but his nazgul ring.

How about that?

[Butterbeer]

very good Mr Gordis!

I too am inclined to beleive that Sauron, musing in his champagne and essence of Morgul vale bubble-bath and scratching his head ( :D ) must for some reason have beleived the Nine or the WK would not or could not have attempted to seize the ring.

QUESTION IS though: WHY?

You yourself state variously that he was Over-confident and not always that bright in every decision he made? Is this another case of not dreaming the WK would attempt it? Like the thought never entered his head that anyone would attempt to destroy the ring?
Or simply having to risk it as no one else could be trusted anyway so may as well send some powerful emissaries into the West far away from his sphere of Influence, foes that "few indeed even in Imladris could ride openly against"etc
rather than some human or orc? A large Orc party would have encountered trouble anyway IMHO.

be objective here Gordis: if he can't trust anyone then it makes a sense to send the Nine because at least they stand a much better chance to find it (it calls to them) and have the power to ride against most adverseries they may come across (gandalf is forced to flee from Weathertop etc)


My question has always been hypothetical: what was stopping him trying ( still up in the air that one i beleive) and HYPOTHETICALLY IF he did take and MASTER it would he be victorious?

A few quick points:

1) I think TD is basically correct in his Life support theories: i think you'd struggle to argue against it, esp ref: that post that even wearing all the oher rings he was dis-embodied when the one was cut away

2) LCOU: welcome to the Quintet! I agree that if he mastered it he would rule: OK you do not feel he could master it: fair enough. Personally i agree with Gordis that he could do: the main question for me is: how quickly could he master it and how safely in that his main initial adversery as he learns or struggles to master it would be its former master Sauron?

3) TBC... ( have forgotten it off the top of my head to be honest :o)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gordis, I was saying that if the WK did claim the One then he could rule. I do not however believe that the WK could claim the One, as you said earlier Sauron could just drop his Ring into Orodruin, as that is his only supply of life. The still unanswered question is how would Sauron (presumably using the Eye) know that the Nazgûl was trying to master the One.

[Gordis]

I do not however believe that the WK could claim the One, I do not however believe that the WK could claim the One, as you said earlier Sauron could just drop his Ring into Orodruin, as that is his only supply of life.
Now Telcontar, you confuse me! You were the inventor of the famous "life-support theory" which backed Butterbeers POV, and now you repeat my POV " as you said earlier Sauron could just drop his Ring into Orodruin, as that is his only supply of life."

WHAT SIDE ARE YOU ON? (asked Gordis fixing TD with red eyes from the empty cowl) :(

The still unanswered question is how would Sauron (presumably using the Eye) know that the Nazgûl was trying to master the One.
Not using the Eye, IMHO, but through his 12 rings. When Sauron himself claimed the One back in the Second age all the elves wearing rings not only felt it, but even heard his very words. Sauron also felt Frodo claiming the Ring immediately.

QUESTION IS though: WHY? …be objective here Gordis: if he can't trust anyone then it makes a sense to send the Nine because at least they stand a much better chance to find it (it calls to them) and have the power to ride against most adverseries they may come across (gandalf is forced to flee from Weathertop etc)
Here comes the answer from UT describing Sau's reasoning:
At length therefore he resolved to use the Ringwraiths. He had been reluctant to do so, until he knew precisely where the Ring was, for several reasons. They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master. But they had disadvantages, until open war began (for which Sauron was not yet ready). All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-King, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge. Moreover, their chief weapon was terror. This was actually greater when they were unclad and invisible; and it was greater also when the were gathered together. So any mission on which they were sent could hardly be conducted with secrecy; while the passage of Anduin and other rivers presented an obstacle. For such reasons Sauron long hesitated, since he did not desire that his chief enemies should become aware of his servants' errand.
So, he sent the Nazgul because he held their 9 rings. He was confident that it was safe.
the main question for me is: how quickly could he master it and how safely in that his main initial adversery as he learns or struggles to master it would be its former master Sauron?
-very quickly IMHO, practically right away.
- (IF we forget that Sau held the 9) WK's problem would be that in the North he had no loyal troops for military struggle. The possession of the One does not assure military victory (remember poor Sau). So I believe he would have tried to establish a realm and an army somewhere before confronting Sauron in Mordor. He needed men and orcs. Perhaps he would have gone to former Angmar, or to Dunland or to Umbar or to the East…

[Butterbeer]

well now YOU confuse ME Gordis! :) :p


from UT posted by Gordis:
At length therefore he resolved to use the Ringwraiths. He had been reluctant to do so, until he knew precisely where the Ring was, for several reasons. They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master.


Gordis: i am confused now as to your previous posts (if we allow any credence to the above : which also may be read and interpreted in other ways: but back to that later maybe)

you say consistently that the Nine were (where possible for sure) self serving and not team-Sauron-Players and imply they deliberately hindered (where they could) Sau's search for the ONE: and yet use as evidence a statement saying that "They were inacapable of acting against his will"

this seems to me to be inadmissable! :D

besides: ( circumstantial but open to the floor...)
he had been reluctant to do so


for several reasons

(they were most suitable; i argue that myself: but that's as a weighing up against the potential threat in this context IMHO)

the rest it seems purely and simply expounds Sauron's thinking on the matter other than any Factual exposition of fact (as indeed conjectured here by the
famous Five)

as we have already covered Sau perhaps didn't contemplate the thought of the WK daring to try his hand (or finger as it were) or that potentially Sau wouldn't be able to control him ( over-confidence again?)

as regards the WK and armies : i see it more as the having the fulcrum of power and being able to wield the captains and leuitenants etc in charge of sauron's armies for himself: a quick and self -protecting wind shift in the unloyal dogs of Mordor to their new master: and his eight suddenly even more deadly Servants.

remember how when the ring is dsetroyed in the fire: the armies of sauron lose direction and will? With the ring i beleive The WK could quickly establish himself the the leader, even from afar as he surges victoriously south. If he has mastered the ring and sauron is wearing the nine: he's open there and then to the WK's Will.

[Gordis]

Now YOU confuse ME, Butterbeer, because I don't understand why YOU are confused… :)

I repeat again: I believe that after wraithification, the nazgul ring contained a part of the nazgul's soul, therefore the destruction of the nazgul ring (or rendering the ring powerless) would bring about the death of the nazgul. The command given by the holder of the nazgul ring will be obeyed by the nazgul, the direct question will be answered and so on. So Sau had reasons to believe he had total control. But was this control as total as he thought?
At length therefore he resolved to use the Ringwraiths. He had been reluctant to do so, until he knew precisely where the Ring was, for several reasons. They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master.
He knew the WK was powerful, he understood that any powerful being was a potential treat if he got the Ring BUT he thought the WK to be an exception.
Why?
Because Sauron had his Ring.
Sauron thought that as the nazgul Ring had primary control over WK's will (or to put in in other words, the WK was entirely enslaved to it), he will be incapable of acting against the orders of the current wielder of his Ring (Sauron).

I repeat again I give credence that was exactly the way Sauron was reasoning. Not that it were entirely true, but that Sauron believed it! Now was he mistaken in his reasoning?
Grossly Sauron was right. He sent the WK to look for the Ring in the Vales. The WK replied "Yes, Lord", instead of advising the fool-who-has-lost-his-ring to get out of his bathtub and go look for it himself.
All the other orders Sau gave the nazgul were also carried out in letter at least, if not in spirit. Search the Vales - they searched the Vales. Go to Saruman? They went there. After being "officially" told where the Shire was, they went there and looked for Baggins and chased him. And IF the WK obtained the Ring, he wouldn't have claimed it for himself but would have brought it to Sau all right.

But in some details Sauron's reasoning had flows. IMHO, he was overconfident that he could read ALL of their thoughts. He could'n t do it even with Gollum! The WK could still lie by omission and hinder the mission by turning to inactivity when acting on his own and unobserved. The nazgul did not add their intellect to help the mission, just acted as automates obeying Sau's orders to the letter. The Witch-King probably knew outright where the Shire was, but he didn't venture to pass the info to Sau. Khamul told him that there were no halflings in the Vales, but still the WK ordered the nazgul to continue the search there for 2 months, not hurrying at all.
A really faithful servant would have either returned to report or passed on the other side of the mountains to look there. But the WK showed no initiative in the matter. And Sauron wanted him to show initiative, to help actively. That's why he was mad at the WK after this (UT).

Also Sauron never believed that ANYONE would wish to destroy the Ring. (that is canon). So he could not suspect the WK of wishing it! He reasoned that the WK would not claim the Ring, therefore he was not suspicious of him and didn't delve too deep into his mind.

you say consistently that the Nine were (where possible for sure) self serving and not team-Sauron-Players and imply they deliberately hindered (where they could) Sau's search for the ONE: and yet use as evidence a statement saying that "They were inacapable of acting against his will" this seems to me to be inadmissable!

that statement is evidence of what Sauron believed.
What is the objective truth? IMHO : They were inacapable of acting against his orders but capable of not acting for his will (of not showing any initiative to help the mission).
remember how when the ring is destroyed in the fire: the armies of sauron lose direction and will? With the ring i beleive
The orcs, trolls etc. lost direction and will when Sauron has forgotten about them and turned his attention elsewhere: to the Mountain. It was before the Ring was actually destroyed. Interesting passage that one. It means that to get things going Sau needed his unwavering attention on it. Probably the same was with the nazgul in the Shire, while Sau was looking with the Eye, he was urging them to act, but once distracted by something else (Saruman, Denethor, orcs, Mouth etc.) he loosened his control and the nazgul were up to their tricks.

As regards the WK and armies in the previous post I only tried half-heartedly to muse on the IF question, but still I believe that IF was impossible.

And from your POV, Butterbeer, why didn't the WK get the Ring in the Shire and become a wannabe Ringlord?

[Butterbeer]

Now YOU confuse ME, Butterbeer, because I don't understand why YOU are confused… :)

I repeat again: I believe that after wraithification, the nazgul ring contained a part of the nazgul's soul, therefore the destruction of the nazgul ring (or rendering the ring powerless) would bring about the death of the nazgul. The command given by the holder of the nazgul ring will be obeyed by the nazgul, the direct question will be answered and so on. So Sau had reasons to believe he had total control. But was this control as total as he thought?

He knew the WK was powerful, he understood that any powerful being was a potential treat if he got the Ring BUT he thought the WK to be an exception.
Why?
Because Sauron had his Ring.
Sauron thought that as the nazgul Ring had primary control over WK's will (or to put in in other words, the WK was entirely enslaved to it), he will be incapable of acting against the orders of the current wielder of his Ring (Sauron).

I repeat again I give credence that was exactly the way Sauron was reasoning. Not that it were entirely true, but that Sauron believed it! Now was he mistaken in his reasoning?
Grossly Sauron was right. He sent the WK to look for the Ring in the Vales. The WK replied "Yes, Lord", instead of advising the fool-who-has-lost-his-ring to get out of his bathtub and go look for it himself.
All the other orders Sau gave the nazgul were also carried out in letter at least, if not in spirit. Search the Vales - they searched the Vales. Go to Saruman? They went there. After being "officially" told where the Shire was, they went there and looked for Baggins and chased him. And IF the WK obtained the Ring, he wouldn't have claimed it for himself but would have brought it to Sau all right.

But in some details Sauron's reasoning had flows. IMHO, he was overconfident that he could read ALL of their thoughts. He could'n t do it even with Gollum! The WK could still lie by omission and hinder the mission by turning to inactivity when acting on his own and unobserved. The nazgul did not add their intellect to help the mission, just acted as automates obeying Sau's orders to the letter. The Witch-King probably knew outright where the Shire was, but he didn't venture to pass the info to Sau. Khamul told him that there were no halflings in the Vales, but still the WK ordered the nazgul to continue the search there for 2 months, not hurrying at all.
A really faithful servant would have either returned to report or passed on the other side of the mountains to look there. But the WK showed no initiative in the matter. And Sauron wanted him to show initiative, to help actively. That's why he was mad at the WK after this (UT).

Also Sauron never believed that ANYONE would wish to destroy the Ring. (that is canon). So he could not suspect the WK of wishing it! He reasoned that the WK would not claim the Ring, therefore he was not suspicious of him and didn't delve too deep into his mind.



that statement is evidence of what Sauron believed.
What is the objective truth? IMHO : They were inacapable of acting against his orders but capable of not acting for his will (of not showing any initiative to help the mission).

The orcs, trolls etc. lost direction and will when Sauron has forgotten about them and turned his attention elsewhere: to the Mountain. It was before the Ring was actually destroyed. Interesting passage that one. It means that to get things going Sau needed his unwavering attention on it. Probably the same was with the nazgul in the Shire, while Sau was looking with the Eye, he was urging them to act, but once distracted by something else (Saruman, Denethor, orcs, Mouth etc.) he loosened his control and the nazgul were up to their tricks.

As regards the WK and armies in the previous post I only tried half-heartedly to muse on the IF question, but still I believe that IF was impossible.

And from your POV, Butterbeer, why didn't the WK get the Ring in the Shire and become a wannabe Ringlord?



so (is confused :D : it's the buzz word of our times)

no not really:

Gordis if you use the quote in support of your argument you cannot then dissect that quote as being an untrue with ref: the nazgul being incapable of acting against " His Will"

therefore inadmissable m'lord!

We can indeed as you mention see this quote as merely being sauron's perception: but then it can be no more than this in terms of evidence of anything else as you try to use to as it as and therefore this viewpoint also exactly 100% agrees with my own position: Sauron may have thought this and may been over-confident: but ther'es no real or actual evidence that it could not be done.

Maybe the WK himslef reasoned this too: If Sauron thinks it cannot be done then it maybe it can't?

I never have said (in fact have said the reverse) that the WK was actually seeking to become the ring lord: i was curious as to why he might not consider such a move? ( and i think your argument is good regarding his life-force and his ring that sauron controls, but only as good as it's outweighed by the life-force inherrent to the wearer of the One regardless of any lesser ring: therfore no yet convincing)

there's the divergence: from your argument and from the WK's own perception he (WK) would have to be pretty sure he could do it and survive with the power of the One (a big risk to himself) and would wonder why Sauron is so confident in sending him to collect it etc! so its understandable WHY he did not attempt it

From my viewpoint though IF (hypothetically) he had attempted it: what actually was there to stop him? There seems at best no clear 100% water-tight argument definitevly saying he could not have attempted it. What comes out more clearly is sauron's over-confidence.

this then is my second question: if he had and had not been obliterated even If sau did manage to destroy his ring: then would he have been victorious?

You do so seem to be shying away fom this latter question Nazgul! :D


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[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gordis, what I am saying is that I do not believe the WK could take the Ring for his own. I do however believe that if he did then he control it and possibly overthrow Sauron, and he wouldn't die because he had a new supply of life.
*Cowers before eye*

[Gordis]

Don't cower, TD, nazgul are really the nicest variety of wraithly creatures... :D
this then is my second question: if he had and had not been obliterated even If sau did manage to destroy his ring: then would he have been victorious? You do so seem to be shying away from this latter question Nazgul! To your latter question my answer is YES!

I will leave the beginning of your post unanswered, sorry, Butterbeer. It seems that the Prancing Pony landlord has more stamina than an average nazgul :p :) . My poor 4500-year-old spectral head aches from this discussion already... :D
Let us move to lighter matters. Welcome to my new thread about horses!

[Butterbeer]

Don't cower, TD, nazgul are really the nicest variety of wraithly creatures... :D
To your latter question my answer is YES!

I will leave the beginning of your post unanswered, sorry, Butterbeer. It seems that the Prancing Pony landlord has more stamina than an average nazgul :p :) . My poor 4500-year-old spectral head aches from this discussion already... :D
Let us move to lighter matters. Welcome to my new thread about horses!


well its all the yeast in the beer ... and being used to sitting up late drinking and talking cra..... er, talking! :D

what's this about horses?

Here's a hypothetical horse question for you ....

*Morgul blade and Monty Python foot simultaneously appear poised above butterbeer's head *

:)
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[Gordis]

well its all the yeast in the beer ...
Really? I should probably turn to beer from my favorite Nurn 2974 vintage...

[Maerbenn]

All the Great Rings (= Rings of Power) except the Three were destroyed, according to ‘Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age’ in the published Silmarillion:And so indeed it has since befallen: the One and the Seven and the Nine are destroyed; and the Three have passed away ...Perhaps the Nine (and the three of the Seven that were left) were destroyed in the fall of Barad-dûr. But it is a moot point; once the One was destroyed all the other Rings lost their powers:Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last.(Also from ‘Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age’)



A couple of quotes to consider when musing on the ‘palantÃ*r idea’...

From the ‘Akallabêth’ in the published Silmarillion:There [in Mordor, after the Downfall of Númenor] he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.(This was long before Sauron gained possession of the Ithil-stone.)

From ‘Myths Transformed’ in Morgoth’s Ring:... Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his ‘eye’ wherever they might be; and when Morgoth was at last removed from Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a long time without control or purpose.(I doubt Morgoth had a palantÃ*r...)


What happened to the WK after he was stabbed by Eowyn? He could not have been killed as only the destruction of the One or his one of the Nine could do that.As far as I remember, Tolkien has written somewhere in the Letters that the WK was “rendered powerless� or something like that, not dead and gone.Yes; a footnote to Tolkien’s reply to a reader’s comments on Frodo’s failure to surrender the Ring in the Cracks of Doom (Letters no. 246) says that “the Witch-king had been reduced to impotence� in the Battle of the Pelennor. I am no expert in Ring-lore, but this makes me believe that he was ‘physically’ slain in that battle, but he didn’t ‘die’ (his spirit/soul didn’t leave) until the One Ring was destroyed, because he was bound to it via the Ring of Power that he had accepted. If that had been destroyed instead, the ‘link’ would have been broken and his fate probably the same.

[Gordis]

Thank you so much, Maerbenn, for your quotes, especially that about Morgoth's Eye. What a pity you were not around when the discussion raged! You should be around more.
I am now convinced that the Eye doesn't need the Palantir to function.

But what about your POV on Butterbeer's IF question? And TD's life-support machine theory?
What do you think: If the Witch-King claims the One ring but Sauron destroys his nazgul ring will the WK die or not?

[Lotesse]

Hey, you guys, not to interrupt, but - isn't "the Eye of Sauron" just metaphorical, as in "the arm of Sauron has grown long", etcetera? That's how I've always perceived it, anyway. If Sauron is a disembodied Maia, then all of his body parts would be extant in the spiritual sense, anyway, just like his "Nine", and he'd have his whole body, but it would only be visible to those in the spiritual realm. For instance, were Frodo to slip on the ring while in close proximity to "the Eye", he would then see an entire Sauron. I mean, Sauron's obtaining his lost ring was supposed to be his ticket to re-embodiment in the physical realm, right? But what do I know...

[Butterbeer]

well Maerbenn: very interesting post: i too look forward to your view on the IF question and TD's theories.

Lotesse: good to see you here as well: hey wadda' I know, y'know? ;)

The thing about Tolkien as i believe someone said something similiar somewhere previously on the Moot:

is:

there's always so much to discover and question and debate: his attempts to make a real history and a sustainable Myth of England work so well because we are still here and now enjoying the cut and thrust of debating and pondering this world and the many stories from all angles and with many new approaches: so who's to say but us here assembled in MOOT what we now, met here decide for the people of our time might consider right? :D

(it's a responsibility for sure! ;) )


welcome both of you.

[Gordis]

Great, Butterbeer! It is difficult to express it better.
And you are very welcome Lotesse and Maerbenn to join this thread, as a quintet we were turning in circles. So please don't run away! :) Tell us what you think about IF and the WK!

[Butterbeer]

You're RIGHT Gordis: we need this new input:

We should be CAREFUL WE DO NOT PUT TOO MUCH PRESSURE ON THEM TOO SOON TO SAVE THE WORLD AND ANSWER THE GREAT QUESTIONS OF OUR TIMES! ;)

*GODDAMN caps lock again!*

:D ;) :p

[Lotesse]

a few posts back, Butterbeer & gordis were talking about whether or not the Witch King might want to claim the ring on the sly (or at least this is how I interpreted the conversation), and I've got an angle on the topic. Put yourself in the shoes of Mr. W. King. Now - if I were he, I'd certainly have a separate agenda in the matter of finding that much-touted ring. If I were he, I'd try every slick maneuvre in the book to have the opportunity of out-Dark-lording my "boss", but in reality it most likely wouldn't work out the way I'd dreamed of, because only Sauron had the perfect finger for a ring that had been made by, and for, him alone. Everyone else, EVERYONE else would eventually crumble pathetically under the Ring's power, because all the ring ever "wanted" all along was to get back onto the hand of its right and proper owner. So, WK probably COULD have claimed & wielded that pesky old ring for a while, but in the end the ring would have won out and there would be Sauron, lurking in the background, patiently waiting for that moment...
But this is all conjecture on my part, placing myself in WK's hypothetical shoes.

[Butterbeer]

obviously the main thrust of this thread is the seeking of enlightenment and of examining various conjecture from as relaible and well-balanced OBJECTIVE POV's as is possible ...

But personally i put Lotesses's points down as a score draw! :D

[Gordis]

Put yourself in the shoes of Mr. W. King. Now - if I were he, I'd certainly have a separate agenda in the matter of finding that much-touted ring. If I were he, I'd try every slick maneuvre in the book to have the opportunity of out-Dark-lording my "boss", but in reality it most likely wouldn't work out the way I'd dreamed of, because only Sauron had the perfect finger for a ring that had been made by, and for, him alone. Everyone else, EVERYONE else would eventually crumble pathetically under the Ring's power, because all the ring ever "wanted" all along was to get back onto the hand of its right and proper owner. So, WK probably COULD have claimed & wielded that pesky old ring for a while, but in the end the ring would have won out and there would be Sauron, lurking in the background, patiently waiting for that moment...
Thanks, Lotesse.
I believe that Mr. W. King had considered all of the above and being a sly old fox decided against trying to claim the Ring.

And what do you think about the "life support machine"? (If the Witch-King claims the One ring but Sauron destroys his nazgul ring will the WK die or not?)

[Butterbeer]

with respect Gordis you surely cannot claim that as supporting your view:
Lotesse says not work out the Way dreamed of: not work out at all, concurs he (WK) may well have considered such a move, and never actually responds to the IF whereby he (WK) DOES master the ring ( Lotesse: everyone crumbling under the rings power: you yourself say IMO he could have mastered the ring!) so that is besides the point: because clear and simple my IF proposition was IF he DID master the ring not IF the ring mastered him (W KING!)

So its a score draw at best!
anyway i thought you said IF he mastered the ring he would or could be victorious? Your point rather being he would not either consider it or attempt it?


Gordis:
Originally Posted by Butterbeer
this then is my second question: if he had and had not been obliterated even If sau did manage to destroy his ring: then would he have been victorious? You do so seem to be shying away from this latter question Nazgul!

To your latter question my answer is YES!

[Lotesse]

O.K. I think it's boiling down to semantics here - I suppose I meant not "master" the ring, but be in possesion of it for a while to whatever end, as (IMO)only Sauron had the ability to master his own tailor-made ring.

[Butterbeer]

ahh but if so what danger anyone wielding the ring against him? i think its pretty clear cut it could be wielded against him, but like you say the ring is a pretty hot potatoe: therefore this could only happen if they could master the ring: otherwise sauron would have nothing to fear!

what say you Lotese (IF and it is an IF from what you say, BUt IF he could master the One: would he be victorious?)
:)

[Gordis]

Oh, no, Butterbeer, not again! :) Aren't you afraid to shy away all the others and continue as a duet? :(

I said the WK could master the One ring and could be victorious IF Sau had not got his nazgul ring and IF he had not been obliterated even if Sauron destroyed his ring.
But IMHO he knew that he would be obliterated when Sau destroyed his Ring. Perhaps the fact that the WK's ring (with a part of WK's fea) was in Sau's hands could prevent him from mastering the One, so, as Lotesse says, the One will master him instead. Therefore the WK would not attempt it, though he may have considered it.

You say (correct me if I am wrong) that the WK may not be able to master the One, but IF he did, he will be victorious.

Lotesse says that the WK could master the One at first, but than the One will master him instead, so he will loose.

So Lotesse's POV supports yours or mine? Neither, IMHO.

And I am still very interested to hear Maerbenn's POV!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Thanks, Lotesse.
I believe that Mr. W. King had considered all of the above and being a sly old fox decided against trying to claim the Ring.

And what do you think about the "life support machine"? (If the Witch-King claims the One ring but Sauron destroys his nazgul ring will the WK die or not?)
I said master, not claim. ;) I think it is a very significant difference. In Sammath Naur, Frodo claimed the Ring as his own, but he did not master it. I think if Sauron got wind that the WK was trying to master the One he would destroy the Wk's ring and the WK would be dead. If however he was to late and the WK had already mastered the One, the WK would surely 'live'.

[Butterbeer]

Td's right i believe it's if and only if with the WK, otherwise he's in big trouble as you say Gordis.

oh no not again?
Nah lets move on: i'll leave you to duel with forkbeard.

I agree anyway it was a score draw from lotesse. (thanks for that Lotesse)

(i also (innocently) look forward to the Maerbenn's POV! ;) )

[CrazySquirrel]

Mind if I give my opinion?

Sauron was a fool to send the nazgul for the Ring. But it was only one of his many blunders.

Sure Wikkie could master the Ring and could defeat Sauron! And probably he would, if he got the ringie from the hobbits. That would be a BIG surprise for Sauron-dude. An interesting development in the book, how do you think? Of course it would be practically the same for all the good guys... I mean not the same, but worse. Because Wikkie was much smarter than Sau!

[Butterbeer]

2-1!

welcome crazy squirrel :D

[Gordis]

Glad you are back CrazySquirrel! Thanks for your opinion.

Re: Butterbeer. yes 2:1 Sigh!

But you could hardly expect anything else from CS!
You must remember that CS is a fervent supporter of my Lord :D with a rare insight in his makeup techniques :p and admiration for his beauty :p

See her quote from nazgul freedom thread:
And another thing: How come nobody understood that Wikkie was a nazgul from the start? Wasn't he invisible? King must appear in public. Sure he could put kingly robes, gloves, wig, crown etc, but what about his face? Tis hard to conseal. :p WAUUUU! I got it. Some makeup perhaps? And mascara? Could that help to make him look normal? :D :D :D
And yet a thought. What do you think Wikkie looked like if made visible? I guess he was quite handsome. Wasn't he king of numenor? I read somewhere numenoreans were almost like elves in appearance.
And he must look young. Because the nazgul didn't age, just faded and turned invisible. So Wikkie must have looked better than Aragorn and Boromir. Not so hot as Legolas, though :p

But what do you think Sauron used the Nine Rings for, CS? Couldn't he control the nazgul with them?

[Earniel]

I've taken the liberty to remove your budding RPG and post it here (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=12247). That saves me the trouble in telling you to stay on topic. :evil:

[Olmer]

Sauron was a fool to send the nazgul for the Ring. But it was only one of his many blunders.

Sure Wikkie could master the Ring and could defeat Sauron! And probably he would, if he got the ringie from the hobbits. Because Wikkie was much smarter than Sau!
Yes, Wikky was smarter than Sau, this why he DID NOT WANT to have the One, even when he had numerous opportunities. He knew very well from his past experience that it would be more safe to stay away from such kind of jewelry.
You think it was blunders, I think it was a creative way to move the Ring farther from Sauron's reach.
But on another hand, maybe it was Sauron's intention to get the Ring withim the elve's grasp, preferably, Galadriel's. ;) In this case Nazgul fully accomplished the task .

[Baldraf]

Sauron's eye is all of Sauron's will bent towards one thing, the ring.
Everyone sees things, memories, fantasies, etc. with their minds eye.
The inner eye. The hatred, malevolence, wanting of Sauron for one thing.
His will is bent towards getting the ring and the rest of his power from the ring. Sauron's eye is a symbol of all of these things. Sauron has the power to project this eye with his willpower. The want is so strong for the ring, that he can see and be seen looking for the ring. The eye is a product of the evil of Sauron. He lost his body and became shadow when he lost the ring. Being a user of magic, he controlled people with his mind. All he had left was this power. As the ring came closer to him and he could feel his power returning, he became more solid. So, in effect, he had a body. His body was reforming as his true powers came closer to him.

[Fat middle]

Sauron's eye is all of Sauron's will bent towards one thing, the ring.
Everyone sees things, memories, fantasies, etc. with their minds eye.
The inner eye. The hatred, malevolence, wanting of Sauron for one thing.
His will is bent towards getting the ring and the rest of his power from the ring. Sauron's eye is a symbol of all of these things. Sauron has the power to project this eye with his willpower. The want is so strong for the ring, that he can see and be seen looking for the ring. The eye is a product of the evil of Sauron. He lost his body and became shadow when he lost the ring. Being a user of magic, he controlled people with his mind. All he had left was this power. As the ring came closer to him and he could feel his power returning, he became more solid. So, in effect, he had a body. His body was reforming as his true powers came closer to him.
Well said Baldraf. Although I'm not sure if in the last sentences you're saying that at the time of LOTR Sauron's body was just an eye. I don't agree on that.
I understand "Sauron's eye" like you say as a projection of his will. So, he appears as an eye to other people. Especially when that people have a mind that cannot held the sight of Sauron on them.

[Gordis]

Yes, Wikky was smarter than Sau, this why he DID NOT WANT to have the One, even when he had numerous opportunities. He knew very well from his past experience that it would be more safe to stay away from such kind of jewelry.
You think it was blunders, I think it was a creative way to move the Ring farther from Sauron's reach.
But on another hand, maybe it was Sauron's intention to get the Ring withim the elve's grasp, preferably, Galadriel's. ;) In this case Nazgul fully accomplished the task .
I agree that the nazgul actions in the Shire,in Bree, at Weathertop and at the Ford were NOT blunders. You propose two explanations: nazgul treachery or Sauron's orders.

I think it was treachery - "a creative way to move the Ring farther from Sauron's reach".

I don't think they were acting on Sauron's orders for the following reasons:

1. The nazgul acted the same way during the early stages of the Hunt for the Ring - during their journey up and down the Anduin Vale. Sauron was VERY ANGRY for that (UT).
2. What is even more important, the nazgul acted the same way (deliberately not seeing or not telling) during Frodo's journey from Emin Muil to Orodruin. They could not have acted on Sauron's orders at that time as the ring was obviously moving to Mordor itself and it could have been easy to guess what for :eek:

BTW, Olmer, are you aware that there is an RPG in progress based on your ideas? :D .You are very welcome to join! :D

[Olmer]

gordis, you know, on the second thought, you are absolutely right. It is very obvious that they were avoiding, if possible, any involvement in the Ring's salvation.
But this doesn't exclude that they did not do Sauron's order to deliver the Ring in inconspicuous way to the elve's doorstep.
Actually I like the idea of the battle of two great minds and wills: Sauron was trying to ensnare Galadriel, but Galadriel was trying to use the Ring for her own agenda. At the end nobody won. :)

The RPG's news was a surprise to me.Of course I went and read what you, guys and gals, are trying to set in motion.
Thanks for invitation. :) Glad if my ideas will be of some help, but for participation,I afraid, I woun't have enough time.

[Butterbeer]

well just for the record i never suggested the Wk actively sought for or wanted to possess the one: he clearly didn't ( for whatever reason ) as shown by his actions: my question was hypothetically if he did master the one what would happen? and its here i think people have to be open minded ....

anyway enough of that, if you are looking for battle ot 2 great wills

Actually I like the idea of the battle of two great minds and wills: Sauron was trying to ensnare Galadriel, but Galadriel was trying to use the Ring for her own agenda. At the end nobody won.

Gordis's and crazy squirrel's RPG the fellowship of the ringwraiths will give you the opportunity not only to debate what may happen but to shape it!

So much is based on the semi- canon of Olmer that i really think you should post at least the odd small post, the least of posts, that the wraiths hand of Wraiths so fancy! ;)


Also you would be most welcome indeed in the discussion thread.



* sees a shadowy conspiracy forming, nine shall be their number nine mooters to lure the Olmer into the RPG ....*

best
BB

[Gordis]

I gladly support Butterbeer here, Olmer!
Nine shalt be their number...
And you can play Sauron, if you like. It will give him a touch of humanity with his eternal love/hate for Galadriel

[CrazySquirrel]

You mean you have REALLY STARTED THE GAME? :eek:

[Gordis]

Dear Mods, could you please move all the posts from #56 (on page 3) till the last one into a separate thread:
"What if the Witch-King claimed the One ring?- BB's WHAT IF question"

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

While we wait for this thread to be split, I've got a responce. :D

I think there has has some been some very goor points for both sides of this debate, but I'm going to have to join BB's side and say the WK could have mastered the Ring.

I think some of his actions, pushing the Fellowship in a certain direction and not acting when the Ring was in the Dead Marshes, were really an attempt to get the Ring closer to Minas Morgul, where he had his fellow Nazgul, a host of armies, and it was, sort of, out of the reach of Sauron. IMO, the only thing that really stoped him from taking the Ring for himself was the fact he didn't know what to do with Sauron. I mean, as long as the Ring existed so did Sau. Maybe he was still trying to figure out a way to 'trap' Sau's spirit. Put his eye in a jar of phamaldehide and place it on a mantle in Minas Morgul or something. :p Remeber when Frodo was on the Secret Stair and ol' Wikkie felt him there and sent some 'guys' to check it out, what if they found Frodo, would they have taken him directly to Barad-Dur, or would they have brought him down the hill to the much closer Minus Morgul where Wikkie(I love that name btw :D ) was?

As to the control of the Nazgul theory, I think Sau did control the Nazzies with them but wasn't that control tied to the One? And if the WK had the One wouldn't that control shift to him? Then when he had the power to control his buddies he could then some Orcs, or even one of the Nazgul, to Barad-Dur to retrieve his ring and bring it back to him. Maybe tell Sau that they have some problems and they are there to take Wikkies ring to Mt. Doom to destroy it and then bust a right, straight to Minus Morgul laughing the whole way "Sucker!" :evil:

I'll stop here for now and wait for someone to come and crush my theories. :p

[CAB]

This is a very interesting thread. I wish I had been around when it was active the first time. There are a couple of ideas I would like to comment on.

Concerning the One Ring as a life support system theory, I think it is possible but unlikely. I agree with Gordis’s idea that part of each (pre)Nazgul’s fea was contained by his individual ring and the destruction of that ring ends the Nazgul’s physical existence. Tied to this idea is the assumption that the Nazgul don’t really have a life anymore to support. I believe that at the moment an individual becomes a ringwraith it’s existence in entirely dependent on it’s own personal ring. The life support system idea may very likely be valid for someone who has not yet crossed the line and become a wraith though. I would have to question Telcontar Dunedain’s idea that mastery of the Ring as opposed to possession would make a difference. Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo all have their lives (or youth) extended without having ever mastered the Ring. In Gollum’s and Bilbo’s case the life extension continued long after they even possessed the Ring. Still, I suppose we don’t really know enough about how the rings work to be sure.

As for the Witch King vs. Sauron question, I think that if Sauron ever allowed the Witch King to master the One Ring (he wouldn’t) then yes he could defeat Sauron, depending on how you define defeat (see below).

What is Sauron’s real fear concerning one of the great taking possession of his Ring? Was it really such a powerful weapon of war? The (evil) power of the rings is based on control. It can be argued that the possessor of Sauron’s ring would eventually be able to control Sauron’s own forces and defeat him militarily but this couldn’t be done very quickly or easily and Sauron surely had means to oppose this kind of take over (ingrained power structure, servant’s fear of Sauron, punishment, his own still very powerful will, etc.). I would argue that the real threat is that anyone mastering the ring becomes the master of Sauron.

Think about Gordis’s (very plausible) idea that part of each Nazgul’s fea is contained in it’s individual ring. Doesn’t that sound familiar? Sauron put a great deal of himself into the One Ring during it’s creation. Sauron is able to control the Nazgul without possession of the One Ring because he holds each ring which enslaves the Nazgul. Sauron made himself a slave to the One Ring thinking that no other would ever possess it. I believe that anyone who masters the One Ring would thus control Sauron just as he controls the Nazgul.

[Gordis]

I think some of his actions, pushing the Fellowship in a certain direction and not acting when the Ring was in the Dead Marshes, were really an attempt to get the Ring closer to Minas Morgul, where he had his fellow Nazgul, a host of armies, and it was, sort of, out of the reach of Sauron.
I would say it was an attempt to get the Ring closer to Orodruin.

You must admit: during the hunt, the WK had plenty of opportunities to get the Ring. The last one was in the Morgul Vale. Clearly he didn't want to.

Minas Morgul is too close to Mordor to be out of reach of Sauron. His troops - at least the orcs were primarily under Sauron's control, I believe, not the WK's. Reread Shagrat / Gorbag's talk. Gorbag was from Minas Morgul. He hated and feared the nazgul. Were there a confrontation between the WK and Sauron, they would have supported Sauron.
IMO, the only thing that really stoped him from taking the Ring for himself was the fact he didn't know what to do with Sauron. I mean, as long as the Ring existed so did Sau. Maybe he was still trying to figure out a way to 'trap' Sau's spirit. Put his eye in a jar of phamaldehide and place it on a mantle in Minas Morgul or something. Remeber when Frodo was on the Secret Stair and ol' Wikkie felt him there and sent some 'guys' to check it out, what if they found Frodo, would they have taken him directly to Barad-Dur, or would they have brought him down the hill to the much closer Minus Morgul where Wikkie(I love that name btw ) was?
:eek: :)
I don't think the Morgul Lord would have been much concerned about what to do with Sauron's spirit. But to turn him into a spirit, one had to KILL him first - not a minor problem. To kill or TO DESTROY HIS ONE RING. That last part was what the WK was trying to do.

Note, that even the Wise didn't know what will happen with other Rings if the One ware destroyed: `But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed as you counsel?' asked Glóin.
'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly. `Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.'
`Yet all the Elves are willing to endure this chance,' said Glorfindel 'if by it the power of Sauron may be broken, and the fear of his dominion be taken away for ever.'LOTR-Counsil of Elrond

Now the nazgul might have hoped that the destruction of the One would destroy Sauron forever, but leave their Rings intact and free. In the worst case, they only faced Death, but they would be free all the same, and finally receive the Gift of Eru.

As to the control of the Nazgul theory, I think Sau did control the Nazzies with them but wasn't that control tied to the One? And if the WK had the One wouldn't that control shift to him? Then when he had the power to control his buddies he could then some Orcs, or even one of the Nazgul, to Barad-Dur to retrieve his ring and bring it back to him. Maybe tell Sau that they have some problems and they are there to take Wikkies ring to Mt. Doom to destroy it and then bust a right, straight to Minus Morgul laughing the whole way "Sucker!"
Far too easy...

[Gordis]

CAB, I am glad you don't buy the life-support machine theory for nazgul. I agree that the wraithification was that point of no return, when the wraith's existence becomes dependant on the one particular ring that has ensnared him

As for the Witch King vs. Sauron question, I think that if Sauron ever allowed the Witch King to master the One Ring (he wouldn’t) then yes he could defeat Sauron, depending on how you define defeat (see below).The Ring will be unwilling, but not as much as in the case of Isildur or Gandalf. I think he could master it. But Sauron had the Nine. That is the main problem..

What is Sauron’s real fear concerning one of the great taking possession of his Ring? Was it really such a powerful weapon of war? The (evil) power of the rings is based on control. It can be argued that the possessor of Sauron’s ring would eventually be able to control Sauron’s own forces and defeat him militarily but this couldn’t be done very quickly or easily and Sauron surely had means to oppose this kind of take over (ingrained power structure, servant’s fear of Sauron, punishment, his own still very powerful will, etc.). I would argue that the real threat is that anyone mastering the ring becomes the master of Sauron.
Think about Gordis’s (very plausible) idea that part of each Nazgul’s fea is contained in it’s individual ring. Doesn’t that sound familiar? Sauron put a great deal of himself into the One Ring during it’s creation. Sauron is able to control the Nazgul without possession of the One Ring because he holds each ring which enslaves the Nazgul. Sauron made himself a slave to the One Ring thinking that no other would ever possess it. I believe that anyone who masters the One Ring would thus control Sauron just as he controls the Nazgul.
CAB, your idea that anyone mastering the Ring becomes a master of Sauron. is correct, IMHO. But I don't think it was ONLY because Sauron put a large part of his fea in it at its making. I think it was ALSO and MOSTLY because he had 12 Great Rings in his possession (3 dwarven + 9nazgul), and ALL of them were controlled by the One. If Gandalf/Erlond/Galadriel/Saruman claimed the One, Sauron had to stop wielding the 12 immediately - otherwise all HIS designs would be revealed to the new Ring Lord. He would become a slave himself.
He could put the 12 rings away, bury them deep, but then, he would loose his conteol over the nazgul and leave them vulnerable to the call of the new Ring Lord.
He could destroy the 12, destroying the nazgul, but that would weaken him greatly - it I am right that his accumulation of Power in the Third Age was primarily due to gathering the Rings.

So, any wannabe Ring Lord was a threat to Sauron - even Aragorn, or Boromir.

But the Witch-King had his very existence in Sauron's hands - his Ring, so he would have been much easier to deal with. Just throw his ring into the Cracks of Doom and he is no more.

[CAB]

Well Gordis we seem to agree for the most part.

Actually, I am (and was) just as convinced as you that the Witch King could never claim the One. As you say, Sauron held his ring (and life) in his hand. There were actually steps Sauron could take to stop the Witch King before the final move of destroying him (threatening and control via the Witch King’s ring come to mind.) The Witch King was well aware of this and so would never try to claim the One Ring. The reason I answered as I did was because Butterbeer emphasized that this was a hypothetical question. Agreed; Sauron would not let this scenario occur.

I am going to differ with you somewhat concerning the importance of the other rings to Sauron should someone master the One. I agree that if Sauron continued to hold the other rings the new Ringlord’s grip on Sauron would be increased but I think his bond to the One Ring was more important. He was enslaved to it. The other rings held much of his power, yes, but the One held much of his power and his life. This is precisely how Sauron controlled the Nazgul after he lost the One Ring. He held the rings to which they were enslaved, no other bond was necessary. Also, as you have said, Sauron can simply remove the other great rings. There is no undoing his tie with the One short of the One's destruction.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Far too easy...

Well, I tried. :D

[Gordis]

I answered as I did was because Butterbeer emphasized that this was a hypothetical question.
Yes, that's why it was so difficult to answer.
For me it was much like: "If Frodo could fly, will he be able to reach Orodruin?" :D

I am going to differ with you somewhat concerning the importance of the other rings to Sauron should someone master the One. I agree that if Sauron continued to hold the other rings the new Ringlord’s grip on Sauron would be increased but I think his bond to the One Ring was more important. He was enslaved to it. The other rings held much of his power, yes, but the One held much of his power and his life. This is precisely how Sauron controlled the Nazgul after he lost the One Ring. He held the rings to which they were enslaved, no other bond was necessary. Also, as you have said, Sauron can simply remove the other great rings. There is no undoing his tie with the One short of the One's destruction.
You have convinced me, CAB. Yes, Sauron in the third Age was slave to the One.
If he removed all the other Rings, he would be much diminished and would have no power to counter that large part of the original Himself that was contained in the One Ring. His plight would be great if someone of power took the One.