Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?

[Gordis]

There are some questions that, I believe, have never been discussed:
When and how Sauron collected the Nine Rings?
Were the nazgul free from Sauron for a time?
Was the Witch-King at Carn Dum a servant of the Necromancer?

The history of the Nine rings is mysterious.
What do we know?
1. In the Second Age Sauron gave the Nine Rings to mortal men and they became the ringwraiths. At this time Sauron fully controlled the nazgul, as they wore the Nine rings and Sauron wielded the Ruling Ring. This is, I believe, the uncontested canon.
2. At the end of the TA (at the time of LOTR) Sauron controlled the nazgul through the Nine rings which he HIMSELF HELD. (See quotes I have posted in the tread "Could he be overthrown..." or, better still, read the excellent FAQ tread suggested by Jon S. http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvWhy )

But if we accept 1 and 2, then follows an important logical corollary: When Sauron lost the Ruling Ring, he lost his control over the Nazgul and had no control over them before he could gather the Nine rings back to himself.

Let us look at the facts:
Sauron returned from the spirit world around 1040 of the Third Age and was slowly taking shape again in Dol Guldur. At first his presence was perceived only as a dark shadow covering the southern Mirkwood. Later, he was known as the Nacromancer, who kept so low and quiet, that nobody even suspected his true identity. It was in 2850 only that Gandalf went to Dol Guldur and reported "It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the rings to his hand ..." [Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]
Meanwhile, the Witch-King first appeared in the West in 1300. He established a realm of his own and grew very strong. He ruled Angmar for about 700 years (1300-1975). At the beginning, and, probably, till the very end, no one realized that he was indeed the Lord of the Nazgul. During that same time frame, the Wize knew that a "necromancer" inhabited Dol Guldur. But they did not connect the king at Carn Dum with the evil in Mirkwood, which is intriguing. Perhaps there was no contact. No other nazgul took part in the battle of Fornost. Neither did the Witch King get any reinforcements from the East for his desperate last battle. The Witch King took the fall of Angmar personally-not as a general of Sauron, but as the defeated ruler of his own kingdom. It looks like Angmar was not a tribute to Sauron, but an independent act of the WK.
Then the story continues. After the battle of Fornost, the WK went not to Dol Guldur, but to Mordor, where he gathered other nazgul. They were already seen in Gorgoroth sometime after the Great Plague of 1636. They took Cirith Ungol and Minas Ithil and settled down in Minas Morgul.
In 2063 Gandalf visits Dol Guldur and causes Sauron's flight. And here it becomes interesting. Sauron does not go to Minas Morgul! Perhaps he knew he would get no welcome there. Instead, he flies East, hides there for 400 years and returns back to Dol Guldur.
Sauron stays in Dol Guldur till 2941, when the forces of White Counsil attack him and he flies to Mordor this time. But he comes there in secret and does not declare himself for 10 years - till 2951. It looks like it is at this time that Sauron has gathered all the Nine rings, because straightaway his power grew - Orodruin erupted again etc. and he started ordering the nazgul around. For example in 2951 he sent 3 of them to re-occupy Dol Guldur.

Now another question: HOW did Sauron collect the Nine rings to himself?
There could be two possible scenarios:
1. Sauron took the Nine rings from the nazgul in the Second age. It was easy to do, as the nazgul were then fully bent to his will. But why would he do that? He had the One and the system worked. And of course, he had to consider that taking the rings from the nazgul weakened them greatly.
However, at the end of the SA there were two moments when Sauron could wish to do so. The first was before Sauron went to surrender to Ar-Pharazon. If he left the Ruling Ring in a strongbox in Barad Dur, he could wish to put the Nine Rings there as well, just to be sure that the nazgul would be loyal in his absence. The second moment was during the siege of Barad Dur. If Sauron believed his case lost, he might have considered the possibility of losing the One, and decided to take and hide the Nine. If that is the case, the Nine Rings must have been kept under strong spells within those famous foundations of Barad-Dur, made with the Power of the One, that the victors of the Last Alliance were unable to break.
In the Third Age Sauron could not get the rings, as Mordor was closely guarded by Gondor troops till the great Plague of 1636. Perhaps he could have sneaked into Mordor and got the rings during the Watchful Peace, but it seems unlikely. Why hadn't he then declared himself openly at that time but returned instead to Mirkwood? Probably the nazgul guarded Barad Dur foundations too closely. Perhaps he had to accumulate more magic power to undo his own spells on the strongbox in Barad Dur, so he continued collecting the dwarven rings. It seems that only in TA 2942 Sauron sneaked into Mordor, found his hoard in the Barad-Dur foundations and, having gathered enough magic power from the 3 dwarven rings, was able to open it and get the rings.

2. The alternative scenario is that the Nazgul still kept their rings during the War of the Last Alliance.
On the slopes of Orodruin, Sauron was "killed". He became a bodiless spirit. What happened to the Nazgul? Perhaps they just turned invisible and fled, or they went away under cover of darkness as the Witch king did at the battle of Fornost. Certainly, there is no mention of them being killed, they merely "vanished into the shadows". They could have easily kept their rings and gone East, where they lived happily for more than a millennium unknown to the Wize of the West.
In the Third Age, Sauron, in the absence of the One, started gathering the other rings to himself. We know only that the "LAST of the seven" was taken by force from Train in 2845. But what about the Nazgul rings? It is highly unlikely that Sauron were able to confront the Witch King during his reign in Angmar. Perhaps, however, he was able to catch some of the lesser nazgul passing by Mirkwood and get their rings by force. If so, he set them free afterwards, as they were now under his control. From 2002 till 2942 all the nazgul remained together in Minas Morgul, far away from Sauron. He returned to Mordor in 2942 and not alone, but with all his forces of orcs from Dol Guldur. At this time Sauron had 3 dwarven rings and grew in power considerably. Even so, it is unlikely that the Nazgul surrendered their rings willingly. There must have been a confrontation. I do not think that Sauron and the Witch-King ran through Minas Morgul swinging swords at each other, more likely it was a "magic" battle of power and wills, and the Witch-King lost it. If Sauron has previously got control over some of the lesser nazgul, they obviously helped Sauron against their Captain.

So, in the first scenario the nazgul were ringless for all of the Third Age in the second they had rings. In both scenarios Sauron got the Nine Rings around 2942-2951, so the nazgul were free for most of the Third Age.

What do you think about it, dear Mooters?

[Olmer]

Interesting. I would say they had never been free, but they tried.
Considering that Nazgul had some intellect and therefore some feelings, they
probably felt dread of once upon mighty kings being an errands-boys for 5000 years without any hopes for freedom in the future. I think Sauron took the Rings from them, because the Nazgul tried to destroy them.

[Gordis]

Interesting. I would say they had never been free, but they tried. Considering that Nazgul had some intellect and therefore some feelings, they probably felt dread of once upon mighty kings being an errands-boys for 5000 years without any hopes for freedom in the future. I think Sauron took the Rings from them, because the Nazgul tried to destroy them.
Hi, Olmer, I am so glad you read this.

I was mostly trying to emphasize that the evidence from the LOTR appendices shows that Sauron was NOT using nazgul as errand-boys (or in any other ways) from the beginning of the TA till his return to Barad Dur in 2951. If you can provide such evidence - I will be happy to see it.

Unlike you, I believe in a more canonic, straightforward ring-control: If you have the 9 rings or the One - then you can control the nazgul, if you have not - sorry, access is denied, try another time.

As for the Nazgul resenting being enslaved - to that I agree wholeheartedly. BTW I have read your tread on the hunt for the Ring - very convincing, IMHO. Perhaps I should try to reopen it, as I have some additional evidence. Consider also, that if the nazgul were entrapped (for the second time in their lives) only 70 years before LOTR (felt like yesterday to the 4500 years old wraiths), then during LOTR they must have hated Sauron's very guts :mad: .
Much-much more than Gollum hated Bilbo

I cannot imagine any ringbearer willingly destroying his "precious" ring. Nobody ever did it (Celebrimbor, Galadriel Etc. down to Frodo) I think the nazgul wanted freedom in ME more than to die and go beyond. With their Rings and the One lost they were free. When Sauron took their rings, they must have lost all hope ever to take the 9 back. So they then opted for the One Ring ring's destruction and helped it subtly and secretly.

[HistoryGuy]

IMO, after the Last Alliance of Men and Elves, when Sauron's ring was cut from his hand by Isildur (hence, he was turned into a spirit), and fled east from Mordor (possibily Rhun, or elsewhere?), I think the Nazgul had a chance to "flee" from him. Heck, you don't think they went to Angmar for nothing do you? I honestly think they were trying to form there own kingdom, but they didn't plan on it being destroyed so soon after they formed it. IF my knowledge also serves me well, when Gandalf confirms that Sauron returned to ME (specifically Dol Goldur) the Nine returned to Mordor, rebuilt his fortress, and than Sauron eventually came home. Just my thought.

I believe, while the Nazgul did attempt to form their own realm in the North, they were loyal servants to Sauron by that time, and answered his calling when he was at Dol Goldur. :D

[CrazySquirrel]

Wauu, Gordis! It is hard to stomach. But I admit i never thought on it at all.
Perhaps you are right and Sau lived not only ringless but nazgulless....

But Why did Wikkie destroy Arnor if he turned a good guy?

And another thing: How come nobody understood that Wikkie was a nazgul from the start? Wasn't he invisible? King must appear in public. Sure he could put kingly robes, gloves, wig, crown etc, but what about his face? Tis hard to conseal. :p

WAUUUU! I got it. Some makeup perhaps? And mascara? Could that help to make him look normal? :D :D :D

And yet a thought. What do you think Wikkie looked like if made visible? I guess he was quite handsome. Wasn't he king of numenor? I read somewhere numenoreans were almost like elves in appearance.
And he must look young. Because the nazgul didn't age, just faded and turned invisible. So Wikkie must have looked better than Aragorn and Boromir. Not so hot as Legolas, though.
It is a shame how PJ has made Wikkie look at weathertop, like he sucked on a lemon for thousand years :o . Why?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

An interesting question indeed gordis. I don't think that the nine rings were with the Nazgul after the fall of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. Had they been the powers of the nine would not have diminished and so with the power of his ring the Witch King should have been a more domminant king of Angmar, would he not? Yet his kingdom of Angmar was destroyed by the men of Gondor and so I say it is impossible that any of the Nazgul had their rings untill Sauron had given them back.
I think this theory works well because of the fear the Nazgul would have in the inevitable return of Sauron. The Witch King, and no dount the other Nazgul, were attempting to build their own kingdoms and own armies in the event they should need to defend themselves and defeat Sauron. It is unkown what the other Nazgul did but I do not doubt that the rest went into the East and into the South and there had similar unsuccessful kingdoms.
However when the ringless Nazgul could not hold their own kingdoms they returned to their "Plan B" which was to hold a fort against the return of Sauron into Mordor so they took control of Minas Ithil and Cirith Ungol and no doubt had posts at the Morannon, to gaurd gainst the return of their oppressor.
Perhaps also they returned to the land of Mordor to attempt to recover the nine rings before the return of Sauron? Without Sauron contoling the one ring and the Nazgul with theirs they may have been able to defeat not only Sauron but the men of Gondor and all of the west? I don't know how credible this last part would be but it does make sense.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

hmm, a nice discussion,

in answer to crazysquirrel's question on appearing in public, i envisage
something along the lines of Anubis in stargate :D

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=gordis]
Was the Witch-King at Carn Dum a servant of the Necromancer?

For me no, not at that time.


My inclination is that by Dol Guldur (certainly when the one was effectively "active" i.e in the time of Bilbo, prior to the White council action) then Sauron was effectively (to whatever degree) in control: whether in absolute terms or just effectively (this is how i read JRRT writing it)

it would make more sense if he had the nine: but this asks the question since i perceive the WKOA had a ring at this point before his defeat in the North by the Southern Gondorians, how did Sauron then, between Angmar and the end of the third age, take it off him (if he indeed had the nine rather then the Nazgul wearing them?)

how much does he draw strength from the growing activity of the One (and how much is this a mutually supportive two-way process? i.e the one being increasingly aware of sauron's re-emergence?)


excellent post and intro

[Gordis]

How come nobody understood that Wikkie was a nazgul from the start? Wasn't he invisible? King must appear in public. Sure he could put kingly robes, gloves, wig, crown etc, but what about his face? Tis hard to conseal. :p
WAUUUU! I got it. Some makeup perhaps? And mascara? Could that help to make him look normal? :D :D :D
Nice to have you here. CrazySquirrel. You have conjured such a disturbing picture in my mind: "Wikkie" in state robes applying makeup to his handsome invisible face and mascara to his long curved lashes...
Surely Tolkien has not intended this. No living man could have ... only a woman. :D

An AD in "The Middle Earth Weekly":
NEW BEAUTY PRODUCTS "SHADES OF LORIEN"
WILL TURN A NAZGUL INTO A HEALTHY LOOKING MAN
Address to: Lady Galadriel, Caras Galadon, Lorien
HUGE discounts for the first NINE customers
:D :D
Sorry, no time for serious matters now, I have to run...

[Pytt]

Very interesting indeed. I've never thought of the possibility of the Nazgul being free, but what you say makes me think about it.

One thing I thought about reading this, what if Sauron sent The Witch King to Angmar, to fight the Arthedain. Sauron knew Eriador was Isildurs realm, what if we belive Sauron sent The Witch King to regain the Ring from Isildur? Yes, I know this theory is not very valid, Isildur died right after the battle, and The Witch King ceartainly heard. But he could have stayed his ground, in lack of something else to do. And if he had managed to bet the Men out of Eriador, kill them or capture them, he would indoubtly have got high in Sauron's eyes, when he would return.
I don't know, just something I thought of.

[ItalianLegolas]

I never thought if this before... good question Gordis... hmm.
I doubt that the Nazgul were ever free, though they probably did try seperately to escape the Rings hold over them... I think that maybe if they had all worked together they could have escaped... :confused: :rolleyes:

[Gordis]

But Why did Wikkie destroy Arnor if he turned a good guy?
I have never said that. By the time of Angmar kingdom, the WK was perhaps as evil as Sauron himself. That is the main problem when you try to figure out whether he acted on Sauron's order or all by himself. The WK may have hated the Dunedain of Arnor. Weren't they descendants of Elendil and Isildur who brought Mordor down? Certainly the WK was a vengeful person. Remember how he hated Earnur.

Or there is another possibility: The WK came North and created a kingdom as any mortal king would, but then he was quite naturally drawn into the struggle for dominance of Arnor. There were already 3 kingdoms warring for it, so the fourth could hardly stay neutral. Angmar just became the strongest of the four. Do you think that any king of Cardolan and Rhudaur would have stopped before destroying Arthedain?

I believe, while the Nazgul did attempt to form their own realm in the North, they were loyal servants to Sauron by that time...
-First of all, there was not a single nazgul save the WK in Angmar. I think he has forbidden the others to show themselves there, as a part of his policy of hiding his true identity. The appearance of 9 strange and scary guys would be too revealing.
IMHO the WK was not loyal to Sauron, he was neutral. He has not challenged the Necromancer either because he did not know of him (or who he was), or, alternatively, because he knew far too well and avoided direct confrontation as long as possible. Perhaps he was hiding his true identity not so much from Elves and Dunedin, as from the Necromancer?
IMHO the Witch-King planned to become the king of Arnor (or a king of a reunited kingdom of Arnor and Gondor) to be able to build a very strong army and then attack Dol Guldur.
Sauron, for his part, must have guessed the WK's identity and plans and didn't hinder him as long as he was no treat to Dol Guldur. The WK's war against Armor suited his plans well, but he must have been afraid of the WK becoming too strong militarily, so he has not sent help for the battle of Fornost and, likely, prevented other nazgul sending it. By 1975, Sauron controlled the road through Mirkwood and the road along the Anduin, as well as Rhovanion. As it is, the result of the war was truly satisfactory for Sauron: Arnor destroyed, Angmar destroyed and Gondor weakened. Sauron was the only true winner.
I doubt that the Nazgul were ever free, though they probably did try seperately to escape the Rings hold over them... I think that maybe if they had all worked together they could have escaped... :confused: :rolleyes:
They were not trying to escape the ring's hold over them, it was simply impossible, they existed while the rings existed, bound to them forever.
They tried to escape Sauron's hold on them. IMHO the Witch-King wanted to be the Dark Lord himself.
One thing I thought about reading this, what if Sauron sent The Witch King to Angmar, to fight the Arthedain. Sauron knew Eriador was Isildurs realm, what if we belive Sauron sent The Witch King to regain the Ring from Isildur? Yes, I know this theory is not very valid, Isildur died right after the battle, and The Witch King ceartainly heard. But he could have stayed his ground, in lack of something else to do.
I think the Witch-King understood that it was pointless to try to find the Ring among Men. Any man would have turned into wraith long ago. I think he knew all about Isildur and believed the Ring lost in the river or held safely in one of the Elven strongholds. Now that I think about it, perhaps THAT was the reason why he has besieged Rivendell in 1409? If the WK had his ring at the time, obtaining the Ruling ring would have secured him forever.

[Manveru]

wow this is pretty interesting. I had always thought of the Ringwraiths as being totally bound to Sauron's will, never desiring their own freedom. When
Sauron was defeated the Ringwraiths had to just wait around untill he came back. So the Witch King decided to do something to help his master out once he came back. So he destroyed Arnor. Imagine if Arnor was still around during the War of the Ring? Sauron wouldnt have had a chance. Then they took Minas Ithil, making Gondor much weaker, just like Sauron was doing by convincing Easterlings that they should be invading Gondor. They were all basically working independantly of eachother to weaken the West in preparation for the great wars to come.

[CrazySquirrel]

Nice to have you here. CrazySquirrel. You have conjured such a disturbing picture in my mind: "Wikkie" in state robes applying makeup to his handsome invisible face and mascara to his long curved lashes...
Surely Tolkien has not intended this. No living man could have ... only a woman. :D

An AD in "The Middle Earth Weekly":
NEW BEAUTY PRODUCTS "SHADES OF LORIEN"
WILL TURN A NAZGUL INTO A HEALTHY LOOKING MAN
Address to: Lady Galadriel, Caras Galadon, Lorien
HUGE discounts for the first NINE customers
:D :D

Oh, Gordis I absolutely love your AD!
And yes, you are right. No living man am I. You look upon a woman!

Actually you made me reread appendixes. I wanted to find something against your theory, but failed.
Instead I have found something in LOTR.
When 2 orcs are speaking in Shelob's Lair about Nazguls : "They are NOW his (sau's) favorites"
What do you make of it? What is "now"?

[CrazySquirrel]

And yes, has anyone an idea how an invisible nazgul can make himself look normal. Seriously I mean.
Is it possible if he has his ring? And if he hasn't?

[Gordis]

wow this is pretty interesting. I had always thought of the Ringwraiths as being totally bound to Sauron's will, never desiring their own freedom. When Sauron was defeated the Ringwraiths had to just wait around untill he came back.
Then WHY has Sauron taken their rings from them?

When 2 orcs are speaking in Shelob's Lair about Nazguls : "They are NOW his (sau's) favorites" What do you make of it? What is "now"?
Interesting. "Now" hardly refers to quite recently, IMHO. Recently there was the hunt for the Ring. After the search in the Anduin's vale Sauron was very angry at the nazgul, later, in the Shire, they have failed him again. So they have done nothing to deserve his favour recently. IMHO NOW refers to the period after Sauron's return to Barad-Dur. Before that, it seems they were not his favorites... I think it fits well in my theory.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

In UT it states that the Nazgûl had no will other than Sauron's. To me this imples that the Nazgûl were under Sauron's ultimate control before The Last Alliance, with or without their Rings. If this is not the case then the only other plausible solution to me is that Sauron took the Rings of the Nazgûl during the siege of Barad-Dûr, seeing that if he falls the Nazgûl are still bound and if not then he can just give them back.

[Gordis]

In UT it states that the Nazgûl had no will other than Sauron's. To me this imples that the Nazgûl were under Sauron's ultimate control before The Last Alliance, with or without their Rings.
The statement in UT refers specifically to July 3018 TA, the time when Sauron, after much headache, decided to send the nazgul for the ring, in preference to any of the mortals. And it says explicitly why: "At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held."

It does not imply at all that the situation was the same before the Last Alliance. Actually it was different: Then the nazgul were wearing the rings that had enslaved them and Sauron had the Master Ring that controlled the nine rings.
So the final result in both cases is the same, but the means are different.

If this is not the case then the only other plausible solution to me is that Sauron took the Rings of the Nazgûl during the siege of Barad-Dûr, seeing that if he falls the Nazgûl are still bound and if not then he can just give them back.
Give them back? Well, if Sauron was so kind and trusting, why then didn't he give the nazgul their rings back when he returned to Mordor in 2951?

Actually, Sauron trusted no one, and probably rightly so. He kept his minions in fear and stimulated them by promises. Mouth of Sauron was kept by a promise of lordship in Isengard. The Nazgul were threatened if they were not too zealous "...conveying threats from their master that filled even the Morgul-Lord with dismay"(UT). Probably they were promised their rings back after Sauron gets the One. But there was no place for loyalty and devotion. "It is not the way of Mordor."

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But if Sauron held the One then the bearers of the Nine were under his will completley. Also as stated before the Rings probably enhanced the 'powers' of the Nazgûl so them not bearing their Rings would be pointless.

[Gordis]

But if Sauron held the One then the bearers of the Nine were under his will completley..
Of course, it is canon. But Sauron has lost the One, hasn't he? The question I was trying to answer was: What has happened then?

Also as stated before the Rings probably enhanced the 'powers' of the Nazgûl so them not bearing their Rings would be pointless..
Yes, without the rings the nazgul are presumably much weaker.

In the Second age there was no need for Sauron to take the nine rings back to himself (until, probably, the last battle)
In the Third age the ringless Sauron preferred the weaker, but totally enslaved, nazgul to the stronger ones, but with their free will intact. So he has taken the rings from them. Also he may have needed the rings (9 and 7 and 3, if he could get them) for his own ends, to enhance his own power.

[Gordis]

And yes, has anyone an idea how an invisible nazgul can make himself look normal. Seriously I mean. Is it possible if he has his ring? And if he hasn't?
Sorry for the long delay with the reply. Actually I was hoping that someone else will have an answer for you. I am not so sure of mine, you see.

I believe that the ring permitted to shift a person from one word into another - from seen into unseen and vice versa. So, IMHO, with the ring on his finger and an appropriate spell a nazgul can easily be seen and even pass for a mortal. Perhaps shifting into physical word they even regained normal human sight?

Now what happens to a nazgul without the ring? That is the situation we see in LOTR and the Hunt for the Ring. By default the ringwraiths lived in the spirit word. Without the ring they were unable to be seen “ unclad” i.e. without normal (physical) clothes, hoods and masks that they needed “to give shape to their nothingness”. But on the other hand, their bodies were physically existent in the physical world, though invisible. Otherwise how could they wear the clothes, wield weapons and ride horses? That is where I am confused. All this seems contradictory to me.
Actually I wonder: can one bump into an unclad and invisible nazgul or will one pass right through?

[Gordis]

Sorry,double posting has occured - I removed the copy

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I believe that the ring permitted to shift a person from one word into another - from seen into unseen and vice versa. So, IMHO, with the ring on his finger and an appropriate spell a nazgul can easily be seen and even pass for a mortal. Perhaps shifting into physical word they even regained normal human sight?
It would eventually have you change from the physical world to the spirt world, but not back and forth. From what we can tell only the One had this power, it was not a power of all the Rings. Galadriel was visible in both worlds (because of her High elveness not her Ring). Elrond was visible only in world etc.

[Gordis]

It would eventually have you change from the physical world to the spirt world, but not back and forth.
I am not sure you are right, TD. Do you have any quote to back that up? I searched for one but failed.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No, but to me it's logic. IMO it would be better to be living in the physical world, not spirtual world. They could do more phsical harm to their enemies, yet they were always Nazgûl, in the spiritulal world. I'll search for a quote, but I doubt there'll be anything. if there is it's most likely to be in the Letters.

[Gordis]

I think there is no quote, unless really something from the Letters or HOME 12 which I have not.

I agree that logically it is better for a nazgul to be in a physical word. But are you sure they could not remain in it while they had their rings? In SA we know practically nothing about their actions, as well as in TA till 1300. Perhaps they just blended into humankind? If you change your address say every 200 years, nobody will suspect you to be deathless, especially if you have a visible body.
And it is a fact that nobody suspected the King of Angmar to be a nazgul for a very long time. Perhaps only the fact that he lived and ruled far too long even for one of numenorean descent triggered some doubts.

[Butterbeer]

I think there is no quote, unless really something from the Letters or HOME 12 which I have not.

I agree that logically it is better for a nazgul to be in a physical word. But are you sure they could not remain in it while they had their rings? In SA we know practically nothing about their actions, as well as in TA till 1300. Perhaps they just blended into humankind? If you change your address say every 200 years, nobody will suspect you to be deathless, especially if you have a visible body.
And it is a fact that nobody suspected the King of Angmar to be a nazgul for a very long time. Perhaps only the fact that he lived and ruled far too long even for one of numenorean descent triggered some doubts.



well who would have thought that a ring wraith would become an Elven warrior? Even if he does like picking flowers?
Congratulations by the wey

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well when he was ruling Angmar it wasn't so much of a worry. They still needed rid of him and his kingdom.

[Gordis]

well who would have thought that a ring wraith would become an Elven warrior? Even if he does like picking flowers? Congratulations by the wey
Thank you. I confess I was NOT looking forward to become an ELVEN warrior. Why not just “Warrior”? Well, I hope I shall become an Elf Lord someday and then I shall get rid of this title as soon as possible. How do YOU feel about being an Elven Warrior, Butterbeer?
And don’t you know that ringwraiths love flowers? I mean beautiful luminous pale flowers from the Morgul Vale?
Well when he was ruling Angmar it wasn't so much of a worry. They still needed rid of him and his kingdom.
Well, wasn’t Rhudaur in alliance with Angmar? Would rhudaurians agree to that if they knew of the Witch-King’s identity?

[Butterbeer]

Gordis:Thank you. I confess I was NOT looking forward to become an ELVEN warrior. Why not just “Warrior”? Well, I hope I shall become an Elf Lord someday and then I shall get rid of this title as soon as possible. How do YOU feel about being an Elven Warrior, Butterbeer?
And don’t you know that ringwraiths love flowers? I mean beautiful luminous pale flowers from the Morgul Vale?


well Elven warrior is a bit of a turn-up for a bumbling forgetful landlord type like Butterbeer for sure, but hey! the pay's good and the girls like the sword and tall tales of derring-do.

well, yeah luminous pale flowers from the Morgul Vales! for sure and maybe just a few snowdrops or daffodils in spring when none of the other Nazgul are watching eh?

legend has it that the secret gardens of Angmar were the wonder of the horticultural North: This is by way of being my take on the Nazgul being free from Sauron for the majority of the TA! i.e pretty much yes.

[Gordis]

well, yeah luminous pale flowers from the Morgul Vales! for sure and maybe just a few snowdrops or daffodils in spring when none of the other Nazgul are watching eh? Please don't reveal my darkest secret! No man is no man...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well, wasn’t Rhudaur in alliance with Angmar? Would rhudaurians agree to that if they knew of the Witch-King’s identity?
What difference would it make to them? They were still fighting for an evil war lord. What difference does it make wether it is a wraith or a mortal man?

[Gordis]

What difference would it make to them? They were still fighting for an evil war lord. What difference does it make wether it is a wraith or a mortal man?
Rhudauriam hillmen were still men, barbarians may be, but men. And men are afraid of dwimmerlaiks :)
Then why do you think that Rhudaurians considered the Angmar King evil? To them he was perhaps quite nice. All is relative, you know. Of course, if you read Arthedain chronicles, you will learn that Angmar was an evil land with evil orcs and evil men (and also evil women and evil dogs and evil cats and evil horses and evil chickens) :D :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet men fought for Sauron at the end of the third age and the WK was leading the battle then.

[Gordis]

Yet men fought for Sauron at the end of the third age and the WK was leading the battle then.
True. But the Easterlings had fought Gondor for ages and were grateful for any help. Still they would have been happier under a command of a mortal IMHO.
Rhudaurians would have allied themselves with Cardolan or with Arthedain if they knew the truth about the Angmar king.

[Butterbeer]

Rhudaurians would have allied themselves with Cardolan or with Arthedain if they knew the truth about the Angmar king.

what the secret truth? Did the Rhudaurians Hate Gardening and horticulture THAT much? :D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

what the secret truth? Did the Rhudaurians Hate Gardening and horticulture THAT much? :D
oh yes, nearly as much as elrond and glorfindel did :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

True. But the Easterlings had fought Gondor for ages and were grateful for any help. Still they would have been happier under a command of a mortal IMHO.
Rhudaurians would have allied themselves with Cardolan or with Arthedain if they knew the truth about the Angmar king.
And Rhudar and been fighting Arthedain for a while aswell. I'm sure they would have accepted any help to defeat Arthedain and claim the throne of Arnor.

[Gordis]

And what has happened to them? They were assimilated by Angmar in less than 100 years. The King lost his throne. Had he known who he was dealing with, The King of Rhudaur would have been able to forsee his fate and would not agree to the alliance.
As for horticulture, there may be more to it than just fun ;) . I have to think on it.

[Rían]

Interesting thread :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You may agree with it or not, but that is sure that at least they had not bothered to prepare Barad Dur for Sauron's arrival . He had to take care of it himself.
Gordis, I took this from the 'What happened when the WC council drove Sauron out?' thread. I disagree, IMO only Sauron could begin rebuilding Barad-Dûr. It was because of him that it fell and he built it using his magic that was beyond the Nazgûl's powers. And I don't really thinnk Minas Morgul would be the best place to hide from Sauron, do you?

[Gordis]

I think it is a very good idea you've had to move this question in the appropriate thread. Somehow the discussion always turns aside from the original subject…

Now, about Barad Dur. It is true that the foundations were made with the One ring, but, as for the rest, I think not. Practically, I believe, that were the nazgul in Sauron's service before his return to Mordor, they could have rebuilt Barad Dur. Especially if the nazgul still had their rings. As it is, Sauron had to rebuild Barad-Dur himself. Interestingly, the rebuilding of Barad-Dur began not in 2942, when Sauron returned to Mordor in secret, but only in 2951 when he has "declared himself openly" (Tale of Years) and have overcome the nazgul and taken their 9 rings. So, probably he used the 9 rings for the re-building.

And I don't really think Minas Morgul would be the best place to hide from Sauron, do you?
"To hide" was the wrong word, sorry. Of course, everybody knew where the nazgul lived. I believe that the best term is "to hold a fort", as suggested by Halbarad in his post in this thread:
However when the ringless Nazgul could not hold their own kingdoms they returned to their "Plan B" which was to hold a fort against the return of Sauron into Mordor so they took control of Minas Ithil and Cirith Ungol and no doubt had posts at the Morannon, to guard against the return of their oppressor. And yes, I believe that as a fort against Sauron, Minas Morgul was the perfect place. The easiest approach to the place was from Ithilien, and that approach was guarded by all the might of Gondor, that still considered Ithilien as a part of the realm. There was not even a remote possibility of agreement between Gondor and Sauron to let the latter's army pass to the Morgul Vale. The alternative approach through Mordor involved a passage of the Morannon and the High Pass of Ungol, both undoubtedly guarded by the nazgul. If both places were taken, the nazgul still had the possibility to escape through Ithilien. So for them Minas Morgul was much safer than any place in the East where Sauron had allies and influence and where the nazgul could be surrounded by overwhelming forces.

It is interesting to note that in the cases of major assaults on Gondor inspired by Sauron, the nazgul stayed perfectly neutral and out of the way (See Tale of Years):
In 1851-1899 Gondor is assaulted by the Wainriders, in 1856 Gondor loses its eastern territories, and Narmacil II falls in battle. In 1899 king Calimehtar defeats the Wainriders on Dagorlad. In 1944 Ondoher falls in battle. Eärnil defeats the enemy in South Ithilien. He then wins the Battle of the Camp, and drives Wainriders into the Dead Marshes. At this time there were already several nazgul in Gorgoroth, but none came to Dagorlad or to Ithilien to help Sauron's allies.

Since 2002 all the Nine dwell in Minas Morgul. Nothing has changed. In 2758 Gondor is attacked by fleets of the Corsairs, the nazgul remain quiet. In 2758 "stirred up by emissaries of Sauron the Haradrim cross the Poros and attack Gondor. When Ithilien was invaded in great strength. King Folcwine of Rohan fulfilled the Oath of Eorl and repaid his debt for the aid brought by Beregond, sending many men to Gondor. The sons of Folcwine of Rohan are slain in the service of Gondor."
So there was fighting in Ithilien, at the doorstep of Minas Morgul! The appearance of Morgul orcs or even of a single nazgul might have changed the outcome. ( And there were troops in Morgul, as 15 years later " most of the remaining inhabitants of Ithilien desert it owing to the attacks of Uruks of Mordor.") But, no, the nazgul remained in their fortress. IMO, if the Haradrim were winning the war, the nazgul would even have intervened to help Gondor :rolleyes: ! Because, after having defeated Gondor, Sauron would have attacked Minas Morgul by way of Ithilien.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Now, about Barad Dur. It is true that the foundations were made with the One ring, but, as for the rest, I think not. Practically, I believe, that were the nazgul in Sauron's service before his return to Mordor, they could have rebuilt Barad Dur. Especially if the nazgul still had their rings. As it is, Sauron had to rebuild Barad-Dur himself. Interestingly, the rebuilding of Barad-Dur began not in 2942, when Sauron returned to Mordor in secret, but only in 2951 when he has "declared himself openly" (Tale of Years) and have overcome the nazgul and taken their 9 rings. So, probably he used the 9 rings for the re-building.
As I have said many times the power of the One was different to the other Rings, as that was made for domination. Also the power of the One came from Sauron, so I don't see any reason why Sauron couldn't rebuild Barad-Dûr without the aid of any Rings.

I'm not sure wether it was in this thread, but you and Olmer have said that the actions of the Nazgûl during the Hunt of the Ring, pointed to the fact that they were free from Sauron.

At length he resolved that no ther would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the Ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.
This confirms that Sauron held their Rings, but the Nazgûl where serving Sauron, not themselves.

[Gordis]

As I have said many times the power of the One was different to the other Rings, as that was made for domination. Also the power of the One came from Sauron, so I don't see any reason why Sauron couldn't rebuild Barad-Dûr without the aid of any Rings.It is canon that the foundations of BaradDur were built with the help of the One. Therefore the Last Alliance was able to demolish the fortress but not its foundations. So, in 2951 Sauron had only to rebuild the fortress and perhaps he did it without the help of the Rings, or he might use the 9 and 3 dwarven rings he held.

I'm not sure wether it was in this thread, but you and Olmer have said that the actions of the Nazgûl during the Hunt of the Ring, pointed to the fact that they were free from Sauron.
I can't answer for Olmer, sometimes it is hard to say what he really believes. As for me, I always accepted the fact that by the time of the Hunt for the Ring Sauron has got all the 9 rings himself. I believe it he has got the nazgul rings in 2951, almost 70 years before the hunt. So after 2951 the nazgul were serving Sauron and theoretically were fully under his control. At least Sauron believed them to be. But IMO everyone reading LOTR and especially "The Hunt.." in UT gets the impression that the nazgul acted very strangely. Olmer has illustrated it at length in the "In defence of the Ringwraiths thread". I have posted additional examples in the Eye thread.

IMO, Sauron believed that having the Nine rings and equipped with the Eye, he could read ALL of the nazgul minds, and he was right to an extent, but it looks like there still remained a possibility for them to shield some thoughts from him.
My take on the matter is this: If Sauron after Gollum's revelations had put the Witch-King's ring on and fixed him with the Eye and asked him directly: "And now, Witchy, my darling, tell me where IS the Shire?" the Witch-King would have been compelled to tell him. But as Sauron hadn't suspected that the WK knew about the Shire's location from his time in Angmar, he didn't ask directly. And that was a BIG mistake. Because after having lied (by omission to venture the info), the WK and the other 8 became most interested NOT to let Sauron have the Ring, because otherwise they would have to answer for all the lies and omissions as well.

[CrazySquirrel]

Sorry for the long delay with the reply. Actually I was hoping that someone else will have an answer for you. I am not so sure of mine, you see.

I believe that the ring permitted to shift a person from one word into another - from seen into unseen and vice versa. So, IMHO, with the ring on his finger and an appropriate spell a nazgul can easily be seen and even pass for a mortal. Perhaps shifting into physical word they even regained normal human sight?

Now what happens to a nazgul without the ring? That is the situation we see in LOTR and the Hunt for the Ring. By default the ringwraiths lived in the spirit word. Without the ring they were unable to be seen “ unclad” i.e. without normal (physical) clothes, hoods and masks that they needed “to give shape to their nothingness”. But on the other hand, their bodies were physically existent in the physical world, though invisible. Otherwise how could they wear the clothes, wield weapons and ride horses? That is where I am confused. All this seems contradictory to me.
Actually I wonder: can one bump into an unclad and invisible nazgul or will one pass right through?
Thank you so much Gordis for replying to me. Sorry I was not around for awile.

And really can one bump into an invisible and unclad nazgul? :D

Another question, if half of the nazgul lost their rings to Sauron before 2942? why sauron has not used them?

[Gordis]

And really can one bump into an invisible and unclad nazgul? :D
I believe yes, but I am far from sure. It is hard to tell how matherial their invisible bodies were. I really don't understand all this "loosing shape" thing.

What do the others think?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I would say yes, purely because there was enough of them to wear cloaks.

[Gordis]

I have not had time to check the books (HOME), but it seems to me that Tolkien first conceived the nazgul to be shape-shifters. I think in the first drafts of the Gaffer's encounter with a nazgul the latter looked like a hobbit!. Then Tolkien has written several versions of the Counsil of Erlond where all these observations about "loosing shape" belong, and then proceeded further. And what I remember for sure: in the first draft of Eowyn-WK fight she cut off the Fell-Beast head and that alone has caused the disappearance of the WK!! In the next draft, the WK remained very much alive after the death of his birdie, so Tolkien must have changed his conception of nazgul's matherial body at this point. I believe Tolkien simply failed to correct the previous chapters.

[CrazySquirrel]

A very interesting idea, Gordis!

And sorry what do you think about:

If half of the nazgul lost their rings to Sauron before 2942, why Sauron has not used these nazgul (because now he COULD USE THEM), but let them go to Minas Morgul and stay away and do nothing?

[Gordis]

And sorry what do you think about:

If half of the nazgul lost their rings to Sauron before 2942, why Sauron has not used these nazgul (because now he COULD USE THEM), but let them go to Minas Morgul and stay away and do nothing?

It is possible, if we accept the second scenario, that several nazgul were caught while passing near Dol Guldur sometime before TA 1980.
Since Sauron had taken their Rings, they were technically always under his orders. He may have used them as messengers, to supervise castle renovations etc. But I believe that after Angmar was defeated Sauron has devised a cunning plan: He set the nazgul "free" to act as the fifth column of Sauron in Minas Morgul.
A nazgul without a ring is a rather pathetic creature. Lots of phobias, blindness in daylight and so on. They were afraid to enter an inn where there were lights and people. They even ran away from a shouting hobbit (the incident with Merry in Bree). So, after being robbed of their Rings and freed from Dol Guldur, the poor ringless nazgul quite naturally adhered to their Captain.
The company in Minas Morgul must have been mixed (some were with their Rings and some without). Thousand years have passed. Sauron seemed to have forgotten about "his" nazgul. And the nazgul must have forgotten that their ringless comrades were a potential threat to the others. These ringless nazgul must have been crucial for Sauron when he returned to Mordor. The Witch King certainly had the Morannon and Cirith Ungol guarded. The ringless nazgul must have let Sauron through the Morannon and through the Cirith Ungol Pass and gave him the possibility to approach the unsuspecting Witch-King via Mordor. The Witch King and the other nazgul had no time to flee via Ithilien and lost their rings.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think tthey fled from Merry out of fear. I think they fled because they wanted to be kept secret, and have their presence unknown.

[Gordis]

I don't think tthey fled from Merry out of fear. I think they fled because they wanted to be kept secret, and have their presence unknown.From Nob, actually.
Yes I believe they could have fought a hobbit with a torch if it were necessary :) But still, without the WK leading them they were weak.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I diagree again. If, as you claim, Khamul went back to Dol Guldur, to attack Lorien and Thranduil's Realm, then he surely was not weak without the WK.

[Gordis]

It looks like Khamul is your favorite nazgul, TD! :D
But it is stated in UT that he was the one most afflicted by water phobia, and daylight. On the other hand, he was second to the Chief, it certainly means he had some strong points other than sensing the Ring keenly. Perhaps he was a good sorceror? Or a good war leader?

Actually it is quite strange, isn't it, that in the Tale of Years there is no mention of nazgul leading attacks on Lorien or Mirkwood. One can think there were just orcs. :confused: And from reading the description of the Ring's destruction I got an impression that all the remaining 8 nazgul were present at Morannon and perished in flames.

What is your opinion?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I do not think that Sauron would trust any Orc to command the attack on such a critical place in ME. However I think it is likely that after their defeat, Khamul returned to Mordor, and was destroyed.

[Gordis]

I do not think that Sauron would trust any Orc to command the attack on such a critical place in ME. However I think it is likely that after their defeat, Khamul returned to Mordor, and was destroyed.
It is very likely. However, there are no textual proofs.

How do you think, TD, was Khamul called "The Shadow of the East" only because he was originally an Easterling or because sometime in the first part of the THIRD age he was known for his activities in the East already as a Shadow? (Like the Morgul Lord was called "the Witch-King of Angmar" ever since just for his activities in the THIRD age)?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree gordis. Do you know whether there is anywhere were it states that all the Nazgûl were present at the Battle of the Pellenor Fields?

[Gordis]

I agree gordis. Do you know whether there is anywhere were it states that all the Nazgûl were present at the Battle of the Pellenor Fields?
No, I think some were missing, at least Khamul.
Actually it is quite logical to assume Khamul was away at Dol Guldur as on March 11 there was the first assault on Lorien from DG and on the 15 (the day of the Pelennor battle) there were both the second assault on Lorien and the "battle under the trees in Mirkwood" where Thranduil repelled DG forces (Tale of Years).
Another proof : when the Witch-King was slain by Eowyn, the logical replacement for him would have been his second-in command, Khamul. But it was Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Morgul, who replaced Witchy. So Khamul very likely was absent.

What do you think about Khamul's title (see my previous post)?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But why didn't aany of the other Nazgûl take control?

As for the name I agree. Especially since Haldir said in FotR "Oft the shadow now lies over it" or something similar.

[Gordis]

But why didn't any of the other Nazgûl take control? Why couldn't Gothmog be the No3 Nazgul? Second in command in Minas Morgul?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It is possible, though I always thouht of him as a Black Numenorean.

[Gordis]

Actually isn't it STRANGE that Sauron left 7 of the nazgul live in Minas Morgul? He could have used one as lieutenant of BaradDur, another a lieutenant of Morannon, a third in charge of Cirith Ungol, a fourth in command of Nurn region... you get the picture. But no. Cirith Ungol fortress was even given to an ORC! Why?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

keep all the rats in one trap?

[CrazySquirrel]

keep all the rats in one trap?
So you believe Sauron still didn't trust the nazgul?
But why then he trusted Khamul?

[CrazySquirrel]

The company in Minas Morgul must have been mixed (some were with their Rings and some without). Thousand years have passed. Sauron seemed to have forgotten about "his" nazgul. And the nazgul must have forgotten that their ringless comrades were a potential threat to the others. These ringless nazgul must have been crucial for Sauron when he returned to Mordor.
But why has the Witchy allowed the ringless nazgul in Minas Morgul in the first place? Out of kindness?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

So you believe Sauron still didn't trust the nazgul?
But why then he trusted Khamul?
nope, i dont believe sauron trusted the nazgul, ever do the deceivers fear to be deceived!

and maybe, when sauron went into the east for hundreds of years, khamul was already worshipping sauron as a god out there wehn he was still human, and so that would make khamul the most trustable of all the nazgul, but sauron had to let 'tar-ciryatan' ( ;) ) be the chief because he had the greater powers?

[Gordis]

nope, i dont believe sauron trusted the nazgul, ever do the deceivers fear to be deceived!
Quite.
and maybe, when sauron went into the east for hundreds of years, khamul was already worshipping sauron as a god out there wehn he was still human, and so that would make khamul the most trustable of all the nazgul, but sauron had to let 'tar-ciryatan' ( ;) ) be the chief because he had the greater powers?
You mean in the Second age? Perhaps it was wiser for Sau to trust an Easterling more than a Numenorean.

But if you believe that the nazgul were cheating Sauron and were not too eager to get the Ring, than Khamul was in it as well as the WK!

[Gordis]

But why has the Witchy allowed the ringless nazgul in Minas Morgul in the first place? Out of kindness?
May be that. Just couldn't turn down the old buddies?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

keep your friends close, your enemies closer, and your enemies pretending to be your friends closest, :D

[CrazySquirrel]

But if you believe that the nazgul were cheating Sauron and were not too eager to get the Ring, than Khamul was in it as well as the WK!
Exactly, so the Dol guldur position was hardly a reward (as TD suggested)

[Olmer]

keep your friends close, your enemies closer, and your enemies pretending to be your friends closest, :D
Very appropriate proverb! And in tune with the Elves politics. :)
I already had my POW about strangeness of the attacks on Lothlorien. Now I have a thought that probably all this attacks was ochestrated by Nazgul with the elve's agreement and without Sauron's direct management.

[Gordis]

Exactly, so the Dol guldur position was hardly a reward (as TD suggested)
It is possible that Khamul helped Sauron to get WK's ring, and was rewarded by a position at Dol Guldur. But if he did, that was not by his own volition, but because of Sauron's order transmitted through his ring. The WK must have understood that and I doubt that he held it against Khamul.

So Khamul could still help the WK in the Shire against Sauron.

[Gordis]

Very appropriate proverb! And in tune with the Elves politics. :)

You think, Sauron learned politics from the Elves (some secret lessons from Galadriel, no doubt, during Eregion times). :eek: :D

I already had my POW about strangeness of the attacks on Lothlorien. Now I have a thought that probably all this attacks was ochestrated by Nazgul with the elve's agreement and without Sauron's direct manadement.
I have an impression thet IF Galadriel and "the Wize" had dealings with the Enemy, these dealings were with Necromancer-Sauron himself, NOT with the nazgul.
I believe the nazgul were not so subtle as the former Galadriel's admirer, they just hated the Elves's guts! :rolleyes:

I think, Sauron started to increase Dol Guldur contingent as he learned that the Ring came to Lorien, in January 3019. Then later, when he started to suspect that Lorien was not the Ring's final destination, he decided to use these lazy orcs for something useful. At least to ensure that no elves would come to help Gondor (as if it were remotely possible :rolleyes: ). And he still was not 100% sure that the Ring was not in Lorien, after all!

[CrazySquirrel]

Very appropriate proverb! And in tune with the Elves politics. :)
I already had my POW about strangeness of the attacks on Lothlorien. Now I have a thought that probably all this attacks was ochestrated by Nazgul with the elve's agreement and without Sauron's direct manadement.
Why do you find attacks on Lorien strange?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Because he thinks Galadriel is in league with Sauron.

[CrazySquirrel]

Does he really :eek: ?
How could that be? Galadriel could take the ring from Frodo and give it to Sau. But she didn't. So how could they be in league?
Where is Olmer BTW, does anyone know?

[Gordis]

*Bump*
This thread is dear to my heart :) , so I would be happy to hear some new opinions on the matter discussed.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I think the Nazgul were without their rings during the third age, or at least not wearing them. Despite their lack of power, I am cofindent that either Gollum or Bilbo would have had some sort of mental contact with the Nazgul, had they been wearing the one/nine rings at the same time. Look how rapidly Frodo comes into contact with Sauron when Frodo puts on the ring. If the Nazgul had been bearing their rings, the hobbit ring bearers would had somesort of nasty nightmare contact with them.

[Curubethion]

Au contraire, I would argue that the Nazgul did have their rings. Sauron gave them the rings, and that's how he had his hold on them. It was through the rings that they had their lingering existence. We saw that the Ring granted unnatural long life. So did the Nine. That's a sign, I think, that they had their rings.
Without them, they wouldn't even be able to live, I think. Notice what happened to them when the power of the One was broken: they perished. This was because the breaking of the One diminished or destroyed the power of the other rings, as shown by the fading of the Elven rings.
To counter your point regarding the perceptions by Gollum and Bilbo of the wraiths...Frodo did make actual contact with them. Had Sauron been awakened, he would have been able to make contact with Gollum and Bilbo when they put on the ring. As it was, however, he was only starting to take shape in Mirkwood. He could not sense the ring.
So in conclusion, I believe that Sauron kept them in thrall by means of the Nine Rings, which they wore throughout the Third Age.

[Gordis]

I think the Nazgul were without their rings during the third age, or at least not wearing them. Despite their lack of power, I am cofindent that either Gollum or Bilbo would have had some sort of mental contact with the Nazgul, had they been wearing the one/nine rings at the same time. Look how rapidly Frodo comes into contact with Sauron when Frodo puts on the ring. If the Nazgul had been bearing their rings, the hobbit ring bearers would had somesort of nasty nightmare contact with them.
But what about Gandalf, the wielder of Narya? What about Erlond, who had Vilia? They were often in the same room with Bilbo, but felt nothing. Bilbo wore the Ring to approach the dwarves and Gandalf unnoticed, still the wizard felt nothing. And the Nazgul were far away, in Minas Morgul.

Also, even Sauron was not always immediately aware of somone putting on the Ring (Sam in Mordor). And, by that time, Sauron had 9 nazgul rings + 3 dwarven rings.
As for the ringless nazgul, they reacted to someone putting on the Ring only in PJ's movie. Aragorn was afraid that someone (the Southerner, or Ferny) will TELL the nazgul about Frodo' disappearance at the Pony. So, they themselves felt nothing.

Without them, they wouldn't even be able to live, I think.
By the time of the LOTR, the nazgul wore no rings,Sauron had them. Tolkien made it plain in UT and his Letters. See the FAQ link in the first post of this thread - there are all the quotes on the subject.

[Curubethion]

Dang...so I was arguing for nothing...

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

This is a very interesting topic. Like the others, I always assumed the Nazgul were in complete and utter control, with or without their rings. Now that I've read through this thread, I have to agree with you Gordis. The Nazgul wanted out.

As to others being unaware of someone wearing the ring, IMO the ring hadn't taken control of them yet. Sure it had Gollum and Bilbo hooked, and later Frodo, but did Sauron have enough power then to "feel" the Ring at that time? That doesn't really explain why Gandolf of Elrond couldn't feel the ring, but the Ring has a will of it's own right? What if it was still trying to stay incognito and didn't want to be 'felt'? Galadriel knew the ring was coming to Lorien but do you think she knew the exact moment it entered her woods? I don't know. Maybe this is to many questions to ask, but; I have one more,well two more. :D

Do you think if the WK came across the Ring, he would take it for himself? Even if Sauron had his ring(the WK's) wouldn't the power of the one Ring give the WK enough power to take back his own ring and even defeat Sauron? I could be totally confused here. :confused:

[Gordis]

Dang...so I was arguing for nothing...
I wouldn't say that. The idea that the rings were vital for the nazgul is absolutely correct.

Your hypothesis that a nazgul dies, if he takes off his Ring, is logical enough. Only Tolkien decided otherwise, and he was the Creator of his universe and the only authority in it. :)

[Gordis]

This is a very interesting topic. Like the others, I always assumed the Nazgul were in complete and utter control, with or without their rings. Now that I've read through this thread, I have to agree with you Gordis. The Nazgul wanted out.

As to others being unaware of someone wearing the ring, IMO the ring hadn't taken control of them yet. Sure it had Gollum and Bilbo hooked, and later Frodo, but did Sauron have enough power then to "feel" the Ring at that time? That doesn't really explain why Gandolf of Elrond couldn't feel the ring, but the Ring has a will of it's own right? What if it was still trying to stay incognito and didn't want to be 'felt'? Galadriel knew the ring was coming to Lorien but do you think she knew the exact moment it entered her woods? I don't know.
Thanks, Faramir!
Very good points. Sure, the Ring tried to make its presence known to EVIL beings, but probably tried to remain as inconspicuous as possible with Gandalf and Erlond. Sauron at the time of "the Hobbit", most likely had only 3 dwarven rings in his possession, and he was intent on searching in the River, not trying to detect someone wearing the One.

Maybe this is to many questions to ask, but; I have one more, well two more. :D Do you think if the WK came across the Ring, he would take it for himself? Even if Sauron had his ring(the WK's) wouldn't the power of the one Ring give the WK enough power to take back his own ring and even defeat Sauron? I could be totally confused here. :confused:
WAUU, you are asking exactly the FAMOUS Butterbeer's "WHAT IF" question. The discussion on the topic was raging about a year ago. I will try to find the topic - it would be most interesting to hear your opinion, as well as the opinions of all the other Mooters who didn't participate at the time.
http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12142&page=3&pp=20

[CAB]

My opinion is that the Nazgul were free and holding their own rings for much of the third age, but not for as long as some here believe.

We know (from Tolkien’s Letters) that Sauron brought the One Ring with him to Numenor during the second age, so he had little reason to take the nine rings from the Nazgul. After Sauron’s defeat at the end of that age Sauron “forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away”. What happened after that?

I would guess that after many years (but long before the Nazgul took Minas Ithil) Sauron began collecting the nine rings. Since Sauron still had a hold in the spirit world (where the Nazgul primarily existed) he could probably interact with the Nazgul. He probably used trickery and guile rather than force to obtain the first ring and then used his new servant, then servants to get the others. This may well be the inspiration for Gandalf’s quote to the Council concerning the Nazgul as the “hunters before whom all have fled or fallen” (though this may be a bit unlikely). Do we know of them hunting anyone else before Bilbo/Frodo? To those who would object to Sauron being able to keep a ring without being fully bodied, remember that he carried the One Ring from Numenor to Middle Earth after his body had been destroyed.

During this time the Witch King came to Angmar. He probably came to get a kingdom of his own and a Palantir, but he may also have come to secure himself from Sauron’s pursuit of his ring. (On a side question, do you think he considered himself the rightful King of the Dunedain? Some of his actions may suggest this. Gordis said something similar to this in post 12.)

Why would the Witch King be the only Nazgul in Angmar? It was suggested earlier that he ordered the others to stay in hiding to keep his identity from the Wise, but why. The Wise usually have to be pushed into taking any action against their enemies and there are examples of them living very near evil powers for thousands of years without doing anything. As for him trying to hide his identity from Sauron, this makes more sense to me, but I think he would have a very difficult time doing it.

I believe that after Angmar’s fall and the Witch King’s subsequent flight, Sauron, with the help of the other (now enslaved) Nazgul, captured the Witch King and his ring. Remember that very soon after this all the Nazgul returned to Mordor and shortly thereafter took Minas Ithil, much securing Sauron’s true home. More evidence that the Witch King is now serving Sauron is that in contrast to his years in Angmar (where he seemed to follow an aggressive expansionist policy) he remained quiet after taking Minas Ithil, even when Gondor was vulnerable. Maybe he was just waiting for Sauron or maybe he had lost his ambitiousness since he was no longer his own master.

Part of the reason I came to these conclusions regarding the timing of Sauron’s recovery of the nine rings is that I find it very unlikely that both Nazgul with rings and Nazgul without rings would be living together in Minas Morgul. Also if all the Nazgul in Minas Morgul had their rings, I think it would be improbable for Sauron to retrieve them without fighting a large battle that the people in Gondor would have noticed and documented.

[Gordis]

Great input, CAB!
We know (from Tolkien’s Letters) that Sauron brought the One Ring with him to Numenor during the second age, so he had little reason to take the nine rings from the Nazgul..
You are right, it is a short note in the letters, but it seems that Tolkien was positive about Sauron taking the One to Numenor. And (returning to my opening post) there was no real reason for Sauron to take nazgul rings and bury them in the Barad Dur foundations, as long as he himself kept the One. Even when the Siege of Barad-Dur was turning ill, he must have known that with Rings, the nazgul could escape unharmed very easily. Sauron could also have escaped, IMHO, if he wouldn't challenge Gil-Galad et al. in his arrogance.

I would guess that after many years (but long before the Nazgul took Minas Ithil) Sauron began collecting the nine rings. Since Sauron still had a hold in the spirit world (where the Nazgul primarily existed) he could probably interact with the Nazgul. He probably used trickery and guile rather than force to obtain the first ring and then used his new servant, then servants to get the others. This may well be the inspiration for Gandalf’s quote to the Council concerning the Nazgul as the “hunters before whom all have fled or fallen” (though this may be a bit unlikely). Do we know of them hunting anyone else before Bilbo/Frodo?
I think he might have used trickery and guile with the first victim, or with one or two subsequent ones, as long as the word of his real intentions didn't reach the other nazgul. After that, they must have avoided the Anduin Vale and Mirkwood like a plague. But by that time, Sauron's power grew (I believe his "taking shape" and "growing strong" were a direct result of gathering more Rings) and he used force to obtain other rings.

But I don't think that Gandalf's quote speaks of those times. Thrain was not hunted, he simply disappeared. Hunted nazgul were not Gandalf's concern. And few must have known of these hunts. I believe this quote simply refers to the Hunt for the Ring in the Vales in Summer 3018 and the flight of Rangers at Sarn Ford in September 3018. Alternatively, it might refer to some unknown "hunts" in Harad or Khand that resulted in bringing these countries under Sauron's dominion after his return to Mordor.

During this time the Witch King came to Angmar. He probably came to get a kingdom of his own and a Palantir, but he may also have come to secure himself from Sauron’s pursuit of his ring. (On a side question, do you think he considered himself the rightful King of the Dunedain? Some of his actions may suggest this. Gordis said something similar to this in post 12.)
I think he did. Look at his crown at the Gates of Minas Tirith - he even took off his cowl to reveal it - the Return of the Rightful King :p , no less.

Why would the Witch King be the only Nazgul in Angmar? It was suggested earlier that he ordered the others to stay in hiding to keep his identity from the Wise, but why. The Wise usually have to be pushed into taking any action against their enemies and there are examples of them living very near evil powers for thousands of years without doing anything. As for him trying to hide his identity from Sauron, this makes more sense to me, but I think he would have a very difficult time doing it.
You may be right. Simply no other nazgul was mentioned. If they were there, it should be in secret.

I believe that after Angmar’s fall and the Witch King’s subsequent flight, Sauron, with the help of the other (now enslaved) Nazgul, captured the Witch King and his ring. Remember that very soon after this all the Nazgul returned to Mordor and shortly thereafter took Minas Ithil, much securing Sauron’s true home. More evidence that the Witch King is now serving Sauron is that in contrast to his years in Angmar (where he seemed to follow an aggressive expansionist policy) he remained quiet after taking Minas Ithil, even when Gondor was vulnerable. Maybe he was just waiting for Sauron or maybe he had lost his ambitiousness since he was no longer his own master. That is a good idea. This scheme is quite workable. The only problem I see with it, is that there is no indication that the nazgul in Morgul helped Gondor's enemies in any of the subsequent invasions, when Gondor was in peril. Surely were they working for Sauron, they should have helped the Balchoths, for instance, or the Corsairs. Also there is no indication that during the Watchful peace Sauron visited Minas Morgul.

It has taken the Witch-King 5 years (TA 1975-80), to come from Angmar to Mordor, where he gathered the other nazgul. There was surely an easy way from Northeastern Angmar into the Vales (without it Angmar couldn't have existed on both sides of the Misty Mountains). So, probably, the Witch-King went down the Anduin Vale, and got caught by Sauron.

BTW - a crazy thought - in 1980 " The Witch-king comes to Mordor and there gathers the Nazgûl. A Balrog appears in Moria, and slays Durin VI" Tale of Years.
Perhaps it was Sauron who woke up the Barlog in 1975 and used him in the hunt for the Witch-King? Then the grumpy Barlog returned home in a very bad mood :eek: and attacked the unsuspecting Dwarves. :D

Part of the reason I came to these conclusions regarding the timing of Sauron’s recovery of the nine rings is that I find it very unlikely that both Nazgul with rings and Nazgul without rings would be living together in Minas Morgul. Also if all the Nazgul in Minas Morgul had their rings, I think it would be improbable for Sauron to retrieve them without fighting a large battle that the people in Gondor would have noticed and documented.
Good points. Mixed company in Minas Morgul is a bit strange. Also unlikely is for Sauron to get all the Nine Rings at once, without some of the nazgul in Morgul acting against their comrades.

[CAB]

Thank you for your comments Gordis. Thank you also for starting and reopening this great thread.

I would like to say that I do think the Witch King was the only Nazgul in Angmar. The point I was trying to make is that maybe he used Angmar to secure himself from Sauron. Maybe he anticipated the capture of the other Nazgul and knew eventually they would come for him. This might even help explain his desire for the Palantiri. Also I would like to say that I believe that the Nazgul wouldn’t have stayed together while free from Sauron’s will. This would help explain why there seem to be no other Nazgul in Angmar, how Sauron was able to reacquire their rings, and strengthens the point that when the Nazgul came to Mordor as a group, they did so under Sauron’s control.

I admit that Minas Morgul taking no action against Gondor seems to be a weakness with my idea. However it seems just as strange that the Witch King, serving only himself, would remain neutral during Gondor’s vulnerable times unless his wars with Arnor were fought almost solely for the Palantiri. Yet we both agree that he considered himself the rightful King of the Dunedain. (By the way, your example of him revealing his crown in Minas Tirith is better evidence than anything I thought of. Perhaps Sauron gave him this crown and promised him the same lordship he promised the Mouth to inspire him to fight well against Gondor, since his motivation was sometimes questionable.) Sauron may have wanted the pleasure of defeating Gondor himself and the attacks he inspired by the men from the East and South were merely meant to weaken, not end, Gondor. He may have even been angry with the Witch King for completely destroying Arnor. (Also I am not sure what you mean by Sauron not visiting Minas Morgul. I agree that he probably didn't but if he already had all the Nazgul's rings why would he need to?)

As for the Balrog suggestion, I think it is a bit unlikely (it seems you do also). You would think a Balrog flying (or maybe I should say traveling) around Middle Earth would attract a lot of attention. The timing is interesting though. Maybe Saruon was using his will to try to draw the fleeing Witch King to him and this woke the Balrog. Or better still, maybe after Sauron obtained the Witch King’s ring his strength grew to the point that the Balrog was disturbed from it’s sleep. As you say, Sauron’s growth may be directly attached to his ring gathering.

I wanted to give my opinion concerning one other matter which was part of the earlier discussions; the extent of Sauron’s control of the Nazgul. I think a good comparison is the description of Saruman’s voice. When the voice of Saruman (or comparatively Sauron’s will) was directed at someone, that person found it very difficult to resist (in the case of Sauron/Nazgul probably all but impossible), but when the voice/will was turned elsewhere the person/Nazgul recovered some free will. In my opinion, Sauron couldn’t constantly be controlling the Nazgul this way. It is probable that exerting full control over even one Nazgul took a great deal of concentration. Sauron had other things to think about. I think most of the time Sauron controlled the Nazgul just as he controlled his other servants, primarily through fear.

[Gordis]

Thanks for your interesting comments, CAB. I appreciate them greatly.
I would like to say that I do think the Witch King was the only Nazgul in Angmar. The point I was trying to make is that maybe he used Angmar to secure himself from Sauron. Maybe he anticipated the capture of the other Nazgul and knew eventually they would come for him. This might even help explain his desire for the Palantiri. I agree that establishing the Angmar Kingdom was a way to secure himself from Sauron. The WK tried to expand Angmar to encompass all of Arnor - to have a strong army and to feel secure. Perhaps if he managed to conquer and keep Arnor, he might have attacked the Necromancer later, to destroy him or to drive him away.

Also I would like to say that I believe that the Nazgul wouldn’t have stayed together while free from Sauron’s will. This would help explain why there seem to be no other Nazgul in Angmar, how Sauron was able to reacquire their rings, and strengthens the point that when the Nazgul came to Mordor as a group, they did so under Sauron’s control. Why so? I understand that a ringless nazgul was a potential threat for his ring-bearing brethren, but for the ones with rings, it made sense to stick together and to remain under the protection of the Witch-King.

Or, are you suggesting that they disliked each other so much, that simply couldn't stay together by their own choice? (By the way, I would easily believe it, given the experience I got in our recent nazgul RPG! :D ).

I admit that Minas Morgul taking no action against Gondor seems to be a weakness with my idea. However it seems just as strange that the Witch King, serving only himself, would remain neutral during Gondor’s vulnerable times unless his wars with Arnor were fought almost solely for the Palantiri.
I would say that, unlike Angmar, the strength of Minas Morgul (as a refuge against Sauron) was in its position almost in Gondor's territory. All the easy approaches from the South, North and West were guarded by Gondor. Only one way remained for Sauron, if he wished to attack Minas Morgul - via Mordor and Cirith Ungol Pass. Therefore if some Easterlings, allied with the Necromancer, finally destroyed Gondor, Minas Morgul would remain unprotected and become a next target. So the nazgul (if still free) had no reason to help the Balchoths and so on.

Yet we both agree that he considered himself the rightful King of the Dunedain. (By the way, your example of him revealing his crown in Minas Tirith is better evidence than anything I thought of. Perhaps Sauron gave him this crown and promised him the same lordship he promised the Mouth to inspire him to fight well against Gondor, since his motivation was sometimes questionable.)
I believe so. Isengard was promised to the Mouth. It makes sense that Gondor was promised to the Morgul Lord. It is sensible to keep one's minions well motivated. ;)

Sauron may have wanted the pleasure of defeating Gondor himself and the attacks he inspired by the men from the East and South were merely meant to weaken, not end, Gondor. He may have even been angry with the Witch King for completely destroying Arnor.
The invasions were strong and almost succeeded. If not for Earnil. If not for the Rohirrim... I believe, they were made in earnest.

(Also I am not sure what you mean by Sauron not visiting Minas Morgul. I agree that he probably didn't but if he already had all the Nazgul's rings why would he need to?)

Sauron had to flee from Dol-Guldur in haste in 2063 when Gandalf visited the place. I have got an impression (perhaps a wrong one) that this time he didn't evacuate the place, but left almost alone in a hurry. Ever most vigilant was Mithrandir, and he it was that most doubted the darkness in Mirkwood, for though many deemed that it was wrought by the Ringwraiths, he feared that it was indeed the first shadow of Sauron returning; and he went to Dol Guldur, and the Sorcerer fled from him, and there was a watchful peace for a long while.- OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE So, if he had 9 faithful nazgul, guarding Mordor for him, wouldn't it be logical for Sauron to go there to spend time in their "warm company"? But he didn't. He went east instead.

Also, IF by 2063 he had already collected the 9 rings why didn't he return to Mordor immediately? Why wait a thousand more years? Why return to Dol Guldur? Did he really need the 3 dwarven rings so badly?
But if he had but a few nazgul rings, that makes sense that he waited to collect the Dwarven ones and to try and collect some of the Three (I believe that the attack on Celebrian at the Redhorn Pass was in fact a trap for Galadriel and her Ring.) just to grow strong enough to defeat the nazgul in Morgul.
Also, why in 2942 he returned to Mordor "in secret", if it was not being held against him? Nine years passed before he declared himself officially.

Therefore, CAB, your theory has some weaknesses, but so does mine. I enjoy our discussion very much. :)

As for the Balrog suggestion, I think it is a bit unlikely (it seems you do also). You would think a Balrog flying (or maybe I should say traveling) around Middle Earth would attract a lot of attention. The timing is interesting though. Maybe Sauron was using his will to try to draw the fleeing Witch King to him and this woke the Balrog. Or better still, maybe after Sauron obtained the Witch King’s ring his strength grew to the point that the Balrog was disturbed from it’s sleep. As you say, Sauron’s growth may be directly attached to his ring gathering.
Or, IF the Witch-King came safely to Mordor, avoiding Sauron's traps, and gathered the other nazgul to him, Sauron should have understood that he really needed to collect more Rings to face them.
So he woke the poor Barlog up, and told him to get some dwarven rings and to guard Moria and the Redhorn Pass. Later that was the usual road between Imladris and Lorien that all the wielders of the Three took - for the gatherings of the White Counsil etc.

I wanted to give my opinion concerning one other matter which was part of the earlier discussions; the extent of Sauron’s control of the Nazgul. I think a good comparison is the description of Saruman’s voice. When the voice of Saruman (or comparatively Sauron’s will) was directed at someone, that person found it very difficult to resist (in the case of Sauron/Nazgul probably all but impossible), but when the voice/will was turned elsewhere the person/Nazgul recovered some free will. In my opinion, Sauron couldn’t constantly be controlling the Nazgul this way. It is probable that exerting full control over even one Nazgul took a great deal of concentration. Sauron had other things to think about. I think most of the time Sauron controlled the Nazgul just as he controlled his other servants, primarily through fear.
I fully agree. As I said, if Sauron put on the Witch-King's ring and questioned him about the whereabouts of the Shire or about Frodo's progress towards Mordor, the nazgul would have been compelled to tell the truth. But as Sauron didn't suspect him, and had other things on his mind, he didn't ask. Another little mistake... :)

[CAB]

Why so? I understand that a ringless nazgul was a potential threat for his ring-bearing brethren, but for the ones with rings, it made sense to stick together and to remain under the protection of the Witch-King.
Your absolutely right. It did make sense. Yet we know of only one Nazgul in Angmar and Sauron was able to recover all the Nazgul rings. This suggests they were each alone or at most in small groups. My thinking is that, since these men were powerful leaders while alive, once they gained their freedom they would prefer to be surrounded by followers or be alone rather than be in the company of eight other leaders.

I would say that, unlike Angmar, the strength of Minas Morgul (as a refuge against Sauron) was in its position almost in Gondor's territory. All the easy approaches from the South, North and West were guarded by Gondor. Only one way remained for Sauron, if he wished to attack Minas Morgul - via Mordor and Cirith Ungol Pass. Therefore if some Easterlings, allied with the Necromancer, finally destroyed Gondor, Minas Morgul would remain unprotected and become a next target. So the nazgul (if still free) had no reason to help the Balchoths and so on.
Good point. If the Witch King assumed Gondor wouldn’t attack him (and they never did) it may have been a safe place. Yet it is said that the Nazgul’s forces surrounded Minas Ithil from Mordor by the Cirith Ungol Pass (though I can’t imagine how). And again, Sauron did get the rings, and there is no known attack on Minas Morgul. This is why I prefer the idea of the Witch King (and other Nazgul) being captured while alone or with only a few followers present. We are much less likely to have heard about such ambushes than we are to hear about a battle at Minas Morgul.

The invasions were strong and almost succeeded. If not for Earnil. If not for the Rohirrim... I believe, they were made in earnest.
I think the invaders themselves fought in earnest but Sauron may have sent them thinking they would lose. I could definitely be wrong here. It was certainly a very close call.

So, if he had 9 faithful nazgul, guarding Mordor for him, wouldn't it be logical for Sauron to go there to spend time in their "warm company"? But he didn't. He went east instead.
Hmmm...No, I don’t have a good answer for that one. It does seem odd.

Why return to Dol Guldur? Did he really need the 3 dwarven rings so badly?
He needed the One Ring. I think he already knew the general location of where the Ring was lost and wanted to be nearby.

Also, why in 2942 he returned to Mordor "in secret", if it was not being held against him? Nine years passed before he declared himself officially.
It may be Sauron returned in secret for the reason you have said or it could be that he wanted to build up his forces and secure his home before declaring himself.

So he woke the poor Barlog up, and told him to get some dwarven rings and to guard Moria and the Redhorn Pass. Later that was the usual road between Imladris and Lorien that all the wielders of the Three took - for the gatherings of the White Counsil etc.
This is possible but very risky. Sauron wasn’t at full strength. If the Balrog was able to gain strength from the rings as you suggest Saruon can, it could be a great threat. And what if the Balrog got lucky and in it’s search for rings came across the One? Also, if Sauron was aware of and could influence the Balrog, why didn't he do so during the Second Age ring wars after Moria was shut against him?


You make many excellent points here as always Gordis. I agree that both of our theories have weaknesses. This is a difficult set of questions to answer.

[celeborn15]

what areas did each of the nine kings rule before they were enslaved? :confused:

[CAB]

Well, Gordis can give you a better answer than I can. However I don’t think all of them were kings. Three of them are supposed to be from Numenor. The Witch King is one of these and some theories have him as the King of Numenor but certainly the other two aren’t. At least one of the other six Nazgul is an Easterling. I can’t remember if Tolkien says where the others are from. There is very little information about the Nazgul’s origins. Maybe Gordis or someone else will be kind enough to give us the other details.

I see this is your first post here. I am quite new myself. Welcome to the Moot.

[celeborn15]

What power could sauron draw from the rings of the nine, what power did the nine have, aside from fear of them and their skill in battle?

[Gordis]

My thinking is that, since these men were powerful leaders while alive, once they gained their freedom they would prefer to be surrounded by followers or be alone rather than be in the company of eight other leaders. I agree. I would also say that once they gained their freedom, they would prefer to dwell with their own people, so most probably the Easterlings went East, the Southrons went South and the Numenoreans sought either Black Numenoreans in Harad and Umbar (or further down the coast) or Dunedain in the North.
If the Witch King assumed Gondor wouldn’t attack him (and they never did) it may have been a safe place.
Some people even went as far as to suppose the existence of a secret treaty between Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul, signed shortly after Earnur's disappearance. Minas Morgul promised not to cross the river and not to disclose the fate of the last King, permitting the Stewards to rule "until the King Returns". I heard that Gondor paid tribute in food and gold (and in fair maidens :eek: ).
But seriously, some sort of tacit peace agreement must have existed. As long as both sides kept to certain boundaries.
Yet it is said that the Nazgul’s forces surrounded Minas Ithil from Mordor by the Cirith Ungol Pass (though I can’t imagine how).
I figure they sent troops down Gollum's stairs in secret and cut the defendants from the road to Osgiliath.
We are much less likely to have heard about such ambushes than we are to hear about a battle at Minas Morgul.
I don't think that even if the Witch-King kept his Ring till 2942, there was an actual battle. More likely a direct confrontation of wills that the WK lost and had to surrender his ring Perhaps Sauron sneaked into Minas Morgul, helped by the ringless nazgul?.
He needed the One Ring. I think he already knew the general location of where the Ring was lost and wanted to be nearby.
Very likely, CAB.
This is possible but very risky. Sauron wasn’t at full strength. If the Balrog was able to gain strength from the rings as you suggest Saruon can, it could be a great threat. And what if the Balrog got lucky and in it’s search for rings came across the One?
Sure. But perhaps it was not an ambitious Barlog? :p Perhaps all he wanted was to be left alone to sleep in peace.

Many excellent points, CAB! Thank you.

[Gordis]

Welcome to Entmoot, Celeborn! :)
what areas did each of the nine kings rule before they were enslaved?
It is unknown for certain.
I think, CAB told you already all the known facts. The only named nazgul was Khamul, the Shadow of the East, Second to the Chief, Sauron's Lieutenant in Dol Guldur. He was an Easterling. The Witch-King and 2 others were Numenoreans. There are some speculations that Gothmog the Lieutenant of Morgul, might have been a nazgul as well, the Third. I have seen some speculations that likely three were Numenoreans, three were Easterlings and three were Southrons. But that is not backed by any quote.
CAB is right, not all of them were kings. Some were "sorcerers and warriors of old"

What power could sauron draw from the rings of the nine, what power did the nine have, aside from fear of them and their skill in battle?
I believe the nine rings were pretty powerful, if used properly. (And Sauron knew how to use them for sure). The Nine were not as powerful as the Three, but still no mere trinkets. Also, it seems probable that the power of the 9 rings wielded together was greater than the mere sum of their powers. That's why Sauron wanted to gather a complete set.

As for the power of the Nazgul that we see in LOTR, it was the power of RINGLESS nazgul. They inspired fear all by themselves. Also the sorcery that the Witch-King demonstrated at the Ford (breaking Frodo's sword at a distance) and in Minas Tirith (breaking the Gates), all this was done without a ring.
The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again.'
I believe this passage implies, that if Sauron got the One back, he would give the Nine back to the nazgul.

What powers did the nazgul possess while still having their Rings? We are not told.

It is hinted that the Witch-King had been able to meddle with the weather, make snow and thaw at will.
But, more importantly, the Rings likely served as keys between the Seen and the Unseen, the World of Light and the World of Shadow. Most interestingly, there is so very little reports about nazgul during the Second Age. Only once they were seen, in SA 2251. And no reports till TA 1300. Nothing else. Why so? I suppose they could use their Rings to appear normal mortal men. This way they could pass unnoticed, even rule countries, without anyone guessing their identity. The Witch-King ruled Angmar for a long time, and no one knew who he was. Of course, it is only a speculation. :)

[celeborn15]

without rings and no black clokes and nothing on would the nazgul apear as ghotes, a mist or would they just be invisible?

[Gordis]

without rings and no black clokes and nothing on would the nazgul apear as ghotes, a mist or would they just be invisible?
Invisible. :)
And that one is canon (Unfinished Tales, the Hunt for the Ring)

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Gordis and CAB, my knowledge and insight of ME is dim in comparison to yours. :) I enjoy reading your guy's post and theories and I don't really have anything to add, but; I do have some questions you two might be able to answer for me. :o

The WK was intelligent and a great battle enginner. He had to have some inkling that Sauron would return and it would be better for the Nazgul to stick together rather than spead out. There isn't any info on where the other Nazgul were at that time right? Could he not have them close by(in disguise)and then pull them out when he had established his empire in the north? Maybe he(WK) didn't know when or how Sauron would return and that's why he picked Angmar. It was far enough away from Mordor and would give him time to make a plan if Sauron did come for him. I mean, if he sat the other's down and explained it to 'em they would get it, right?
I had a funny skit with how this convo might go with the Nazgul in party hats celebrating the Ring being lost in the Anduin, but I erased it. :o :p

[CAB]

I am flattered Faramir. I could say the same about Gordis’s knowledge being greater than mine.


The WK was intelligent and a great battle enginner. He had to have some inkling that Sauron would return and it would be better for the Nazgul to stick together rather than spead out. Could he not have them close by(in disguise)and then pull them out when he had established his empire in the north?

I mean, if he sat the other's down and explained it to 'em they would get it, right?
What you suggest is quite possible and may have actually happened. If Gordis’s theory concerning the Nazguls’ ability to appear as normal people is correct, they may have even followed this advice. I personally question this idea though. Could you tell us how you reached this conclusion concerning this ability of the (ringed) Nazgul Gordis? Is there more to it than the Nazguls’ seeming inactivity during the Second Age?


Personally I don’t think the Nazgul remaining together was very likely despite the advantages. Put yourself in their shoes. You are a mighty leader and have things your way most of your life, then you are turned into a wraith and are forced to work for someone else in the company of eight similarly unlucky individuals. When you become free would you prefer to remain with these reminders of your servitude and bitterness who were all used to having their own way, or to return to your home and try to recapture some of your old life and glory? All the Nazgul may have attempted to, or succeeded in, essentially retaking their old lordships. If they were in the East and South we wouldn’t expect to hear of these events. Of course they would be much more vulnerable to Sauron in these areas than the Witch King was in the West.


Maybe he(WK) didn't know when or how Sauron would return and that's why he picked Angmar. It was far enough away from Mordor and would give him time to make a plan if Sauron did come for him.
I think the Witch King came to Angmar to: secure himself from Sauron/anticipated captured Nazgul, gain a Palantir, and claim the Kingship of the Dunedain. The distance between Angmar and Mordor may have been a factor but Sauron had many servants in the East who he probably would have sent against the Witch King rather than sending an army from Mordor. Probably the Witch King chose Arnor as his target because of Gondor’s strength at that time.


The lord of that land (Angmar) was known as the Witch King, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dunedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong.-APPENDIX A THE RETURN OF THE KING
Now that I think about it, the Witch King’s failure to capture a Palantir may have been his undoing. If he had been able to see the strength of the forces Gondor sent he might not have rashly charged against them.

As I see it, the Witch King’s story in the Third Age is rather tragic. All seemed to be going according to plan. He may have been sitting in the great chair in Fornost, wearing his crown, thinking “I have taken Arnor, soon it will be Gondor’s turn, then Sauron will be forced to serve the King of the Numenoreans once again.” In his overconfidence born of great success he lost his kingdom and security and fled east. Soon thereafter he was met by his old, now ringless, companions and his old chain.

[Gordis]

Thanks, Faramir and CAB. :)
I have only time now to post my prepared reply to Faramir.
I will answer to your post tommorrow, CAB, sorry! :)


The WK was intelligent and a great battle enginner. He had to have some inkling that Sauron would return and it would be better for the Nazgul to stick together rather than spead out. There isn't any info on where the other Nazgul were at that time right? Could he not have them close by(in disguise)and then pull them out when he had established his empire in the north? Maybe he(WK) didn't know when or how Sauron would return and that's why he picked Angmar. It was far enough away from Mordor and would give him time to make a plan if Sauron did come for him. I mean, if he sat the other's down and explained it to 'em they would get it, right?
I had a funny skit with how this convo might go with the Nazgul in party hats celebrating the Ring being lost in the Anduin, but I erased it.

Interesting question.
First of all we do know what happened to the nazgul after the War of the Last Alliance:
(Sauron) had been besieged in Mordor and all his forces had been destroyed. If any few had escaped, they had fled far to the East with the Ringwraiths. UT, disaster of the Gladden fields So, all the nazgul went East.
Most likely, as CAB suggests, they immediately dispersed: they had no reason to stick together, when Sauron was no more. I think most of them, especially the Easterling, established kingdoms of their own in the East. The Southrons may have done the same in the South- anyway likely each one sought his own people. The Witch-King hardly wished to rule "barbarians', only Numenoreans were worthy. And he believed to be their only rightful King.

I think (although there is little prove of it) that during the first millennium of the Third Age, the Witch-King may have been in Harad and Umbar, among the Black Numenoreans there. They should have welcomed him warmly. We know that by TA 1000 Gondor reached the summit of its power. In 1050 Ciryaher/ Hyarmendacil "utterly defeated the Men of the Harad, and their kings were compelled to acknowledge the overlordship of Gondor"

I think, that was the time when the Witch-King decided to try his hand in the North, where Arnor was getting weaker and weaker. Probably, he went East first (1050-1300): to invite the other nazgul to follow him, but they refused. The others must have been happily ruling their own countries (may be even empires) in the East. They deemed themselves safe. Why would they abandon everything and come to start all anew with the Witch-King?

I am not sure when the Witch-King first learned about the resurrection of Sauron. Probably he understood who caused the Shadow in Mirkwood before the Wise, as he must have "felt" Sauron better. Also, the Wise first took Sauron for one of the nazgul, but the WK must have known where each of the other Eight were.

I think by 1300, when the WK came to Angmar, he had a very good idea who was hiding in Mirkwood. So he established his capital not in the hospitable lands of the upper Vales of Anduin (which were also part of Angmar), not near Mount Gundabad, the greatest orc stronghold of old, but in the wastes of the North, on the other side of the Misty Mountains.

Now probably, some of the other nazgul, if they lost their kingdoms or simply desired to see the WK, might have fallen prey to Sauron in Mirkwood, while travelling to Angmar. The others learned that the way was perilous, and stayed away.

[CAB]

Gordis I would agree with the likelihood of every point you make here but one. I don’t believe it was absolutely necessary for the Nazgul to be in the neighborhood of Dol Guldur to be captured. Certainly Sauron could travel. Probably no one would notice, or at least it wasn’t worth recording, if he vacated Dol Guldur for a month or two, especially in his weak condition at that time. My guess is that his spies found the Nazgul and when he believed the time right, Sauron with some of his servants (some or all of whom may have existed entirely in the “Unseen” world”) went and captured it’s ring. He probably did this with at least the first two Nazgul and then used them to capture the others. I think that the weaker Nazgul, those whose lordships were small or nonexistent, were his first targets. He then would have moved on to the stronger ones finishing of course with the Witch King.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Personally I don’t think the Nazgul remaining together was very likely despite the advantages. Put yourself in their shoes. You are a mighty leader and have things your way most of your life, then you are turned into a wraith and are forced to work for someone else in the company of eight similarly unlucky individuals. When you become free would you prefer to remain with these reminders of your servitude and bitterness who were all used to having their own way, or to return to your home and try to recapture some of your old life and glory? All the Nazgul may have attempted to, or succeeded in, essentially retaking their old lordships. If they were in the East and South we wouldn’t expect to hear of these events. Of course they would be much more vulnerable to Sauron in these areas than the Witch King was in the West.
Yeah, I guess all this makes sense. They probably got sick of seeing one another for thousands of yrs.
WK- Khamul, geez, will you take off your ring or at least put a robe on, you're hideous. I hate this place. *kicks unsuspecting Orc out of the highest window of Minus Morgul*
I think by 1300, when the WK came to Angmar, he had a very good idea who was hiding in Mirkwood. So he established his capital not in the hospitable lands of the upper Vales of Anduin (which were also part of Angmar), not near Mount Gundabad, the greatest orc stronghold of old, but in the wastes of the North, on the other side of the Misty Mountains.
This makes sense also. Do you think he might have sent word to the others that Sauron had returned, if they didn't already know, and maybe made some sort of plan to deal with him and this is how the first couple got 'captured'?

Edit- I thought of something else I wanted to ask. :o How hard do you think it would be to 'take' a ring from one of the Nazgul? Or even to trap 'em. It's not like they could put a ring on a string and wait for a Nazgul to come by and go "Oh, look, a ring." and then pounce on him and hold him down why an orc or something takes it off, right? Just woundering. :)

[Gordis]

Nazgul visibility/invisibility is a most interesting question.
If Gordis’s theory concerning the Nazguls’ ability to appear as normal people is correct, they may have even followed this advice. I personally question this idea though. Could you tell us how you reached this conclusion concerning this ability of the (ringed) Nazgul Gordis? Is there more to it than the Nazguls’ seeming inactivity during the Second Age?
No, unfortunately, apart from that, the fact that the WK in Carn Dum was able to fool everybody for a very long time, and the fact that Sauron was visible when wearing the One, I have little to back this theory up. I think Tolkien himself never really considered this question.

What do we have?

A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later, the dark power will devour him." - Gandalf, "The Shadow of the Past," Fellowship of the Ring, p.56
Does this "permanently" means "both with and without the Ring"? - It seems so.

However, this quote belongs to the early stages of LOTR composition. Its precursor is the quote from HOME “The Return of the Shadow”
Yes, if the Ring overcomes you, you yourself become permanently invisible - and it is a horrible cold feeling. Everything becomes very faint like grey ghost pictures against the black background in which you live; but you can smell more clearly than you can hear or see. You have no power however like a Ring of making other things invisible: you are a ringwraith. You can wear clothes. [>you are just a ringwraith; and your clothes are visible, unless the Lord lends you a ring. But you are under the command of the Lord of the Rings.
So it clearly referred to the ringless state.

In the quote Gandalf warns Frodo of the effects the ring will have on him, if he wears it. Gandalf volunteers as little information as possible. He couldn’t continue and tell Frodo “Sure, when you master your Ring and become a powerful sorcerer taught by Sauron himself, you will be able to appear visible again”, could he? :) Such fate as the Witch-King’s was impossible for Frodo anyway, so why frighten and bewilder the hobbit even more?

Probably the nazgul ring, when fully mastered, could make the wraith visible or invisible at will, exactly like Sauron wearing the One. The wielder only had to know the appropriate spells. I believe that the freshly-made wraiths, when first assembled in Mordor, had some “Advanced Training for Ring-users” by Prof. Sauron himself. :D After that, they could probably wield their Rings to their full power.


And now, if I am wrong, and the Rings couldn't make the wraiths visible, there was still another possibility:

The Witch-King was a powerful sorcerer. Even without his ring, he could affect other’s thoughts and perceptions. He could make people believe they saw his face, while a photo taken (if photos existed in ME :D ) would have shown no face. Even Real Life illusionists are able to hypnotise a large audience - surely it was possible for a sorcerer.

I think that the mortals could be easily fooled by such a method. To remain undetected, the main idea was to avoid wizards, Valinorean Elves and the wielders of the Three, as they could see the WK in the spirit world and so recognise him. Interesting that he ran from Glorfindel. I believe it was largely because he saw himself unveiled at last.

Yes, the Witch-King wore a black mask at Fornost battle. Perhaps it was a metal one, like Dwarves (or Turin) wore, used for face protection from stray arrows (a wise thing to have when facing an army on your own). Another explanation would be that remaining visible (either by means of pure sorcery or by a ring-spell) needed constant mind concentration, the more so, the bigger audience he had. In battle, he simply had other things to do than to think about his appearance, so he used a mask.


I think the Witch King came to Angmar to: secure himself from Sauron/anticipated captured Nazgul, gain a Palantir, and claim the Kingship of the Dunedain. The distance between Angmar and Mordor may have been a factor but Sauron had many servants in the East who he probably would have sent against the Witch King rather than sending an army from Mordor.
I agree about the WK's goals. But it was the distance between Angmar and Dol Guldur that mattered, not Mordor. It seems, Sauron never left Dol Guldur before 2060 - probably he was not even fully incarnate before he collected enough rings.
Mordor was occupied and closely guarded by Gondor till the Great Plague in TA 1636. After it, Mordor was left unguarded, Soon some nazgul were spotted in Gorgoroth:
Then the forts on the borders of Mordor were deserted, and Minas Ithil was emptied of its people; and evil entered again into the Black Land secretly, and the ashes of Gorgoroth were stirred as by a cold wind, for dark shapes gathered there. It is said that these were indeed the Úlairi, whom Sauron called the Nazgûl, the Nine Ringwraiths that had long remained hidden, but returned now to prepare the ways of their Master, for he had begun to grow again. OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE
The description of the nazgul as "dark shapes" who caused a cold wind etc. corresponds to their description in LOTR, and makes me think that those were already ringless nazgul. Because with the rings on, they would be simply invisible (clothes and all) or fully visible, if I am right and they could move from one world to another,.

Gordis I would agree with the likelihood of every point you make here but one. I don’t believe it was absolutely necessary for the Nazgul to be in the neighborhood of Dol Guldur to be captured. Certainly Sauron could travel. Probably no one would notice, or at least it wasn’t worth recording, if he vacated Dol Guldur for a month or two, especially in his weak condition at that time. My guess is that his spies found the Nazgul and when he believed the time right, Sauron with some of his servants (some or all of whom may have existed entirely in the “Unseen” world”) went and captured it’s ring. He probably did this with at least the first two Nazgul and then used them to capture the others. I think that the weaker Nazgul, those whose lordships were small or nonexistent, were his first targets. He then would have moved on to the stronger ones finishing of course with the Witch King.
Yes, why not?

And, if you are right, and Sauron DID take the WK's ring in 1975, then he could have easily sent the WK himself to collect the remaining Rings. It took the WK 5 years (1975-1980) to come to Mordor, so, probably, he visited their Eastern realms, took their Rings for Sauron and herded them to Mordor.

Thank you, CAB, for your excellent summary. I agree that the Witch King’s story in the Third Age was tragic.

[Gordis]

Edit- I thought of something else I wanted to ask. :o How hard do you think it would be to 'take' a ring from one of the Nazgul? Or even to trap 'em. It's not like they could put a ring on a string and wait for a Nazgul to come by and go "Oh, look, a ring." and then pounce on him and hold him down why an orc or something takes it off, right? Just woundering. :)
Pretty hard, I believe! It was hard to take a Ring even from a hobbit. :)
I can't imagine orcs attacking a nazgul... :eek: I believe Sauron's presence was necessary in the first cases. And than the pack of ringless nazgul could be used to hunt others. (I don't really think Sauron used the Barlog :) ).Perhaps armies were involved, just to get close enough to a King-nazgul.

As for trapping, in principle it was possible, as Gandalf believed that Saruman would try to trap a nazgul in Isengard. But again it needed a maia to do so, so Sauron's presence was necessary.

[CAB]

After reading your post and giving the matter some thought, I think you may be right Gordis.

My first instinct was to disagree because Sauron, like Morgoth, had many Men serving him. Why then would it be important for the Nazgul to look normal to better control their people? (Actually I still don’t think this is completely necessary, but it would help.) But it seems that Sauron didn’t have many, if any, Men in his army during his war to recover the rings in the Second Age. This isn’t plainly stated but it is the impression I get while reading The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales. It is stated that Sauron was turning Men to evil early in the Second Age but that doesn’t have to mean that they were serving him. Alternatively, Sauron might have given the rings to the leaders of powerful groups or nations of Men who refused him. Surely not everyone in the East and South was under his sway. Maybe Sauron’s great forces of Men in later times was greatly due to his use of the rings in the Second Age.

I am not sure about the method the Nazgul would use to appear normal. Personally, I don’t think that the rings’ original purpose (for Sauron) was to make the wearers wraiths. I think this was more an unplanned consequence. Having the ruler of a newly allied nation become a wraith doesn’t seem very advantageous. Therefore I don’t think this power would have been built into the rings. Maybe the sorcery method, using the more general “magical” strength the rings provided (as opposed to a specific power of the rings to give the holder the ability to appear alive) is the best answer.

Thanks for your answer to my question. You have shown me something new about Tolkien’s world once again. I have read many of your earlier threads and have learned a lot from them. Thank you.

[Gordis]

My first instinct was to disagree because Sauron, like Morgoth, had many Men serving him. Why then would it be important for the Nazgul to look normal to better control their people? (Actually I still don’t think this is completely necessary, but it would help.) Men (both in RL and in ME) tend to be frightened by supernatural beings: one rather quiet ghost (or even a rumour of a ghost) is enough to scare them away. Now imagine that a whole nation is ruled by a wraith. Of course, some healthy dose of fear for the King is beneficial, but some affection and true loyalty is also needed. More so, when the kingdom is just being built and initial wars for the territory fought.
I believe that in all cases, after becoming wraiths, the nazgul had to abandon their peoples and kingdoms and come to serve Sauron in Mordor: to get some training in sorcery and to learn to obey Sauron and the Witch-King their Captain. I am not sure, whether after that period, the nazgul were released to rule separate kingdoms, or they were kept in Mordor throughout the Second Age. Anyway, when in the Third Age they returned to their peoples, they must have been only a dim memory and an ancient tale. Imagine someone coming and telling: "I am the Great Khamul of old returned to you" - that must have sounded ominous enough, all by itself. And if it were said by a scary dwimmerlaik with no face, I believe the population would flee screaming. And let us take the Witch-King in Angmar. There he had nothing to tell the people: most likely the Hillmen or other natives of the land never heard of him. He had to build his kingdom anew, attract mercenaries and other "evil men".
Then there are so many other cases when appearing normal is helpful: spying, travelling etc. I believe the search for Baggins would have been so much easier if they could inspire confidence in the men they questioned.

But even more important is another aspect. If the Rings, when worn, could really bring them back into the World of Light, they would be able to see it clearly, not to wander around half-blind, as they did in LOTR. Actually, if I am right, then the mission to the Shire was the very first trip of the blind ringless nazgul out of Mordor: no wonder they felt disoriented and made so many blunders. Perhaps the Witch-King had perished in such a stupid way because he was unused to fight while almost blind - so he missed Merry?

But it seems that Sauron didn’t have many, if any, Men in his army during his war to recover the rings in the Second Age. This isn’t plainly stated but it is the impression I get while reading The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales. It is stated that Sauron was turning Men to evil early in the Second Age but that doesn’t have to mean that they were serving him.
Hmm... I didn't get this impression. Sauron had brought a great host to Eregion in SA 1695: "The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough both to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion. - UT
Sure, all this host had been destroyed, and Sauron fled "with no more than a bodyguard"- UT.
Perhaps, most of them were orcs, I really don't know.

Alternatively, Sauron might have given the rings to the leaders of powerful groups or nations of Men who refused him. Surely not everyone in the East and South was under his sway. Maybe Sauron’s great forces of Men in later times was greatly due to his use of the rings in the Second Age.
I am practically sure that you are correct. The Rings were psychological weapons, made to ensnare those who would NEVER co-operate otherwise. I think it is clear that Sauron's great force of Men in later times was largely due to the Nine Rings:
Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race. And when the Úlairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea.-Akkalabeth

Personally, I don’t think that the rings’ original purpose (for Sauron) was to make the wearers wraiths. I think this was more an unplanned consequence. Having the ruler of a newly allied nation become a wraith doesn’t seem very advantageous. Therefore I don’t think this power would have been built into the rings. Maybe the sorcery method, using the more general “magical” strength the rings provided (as opposed to a specific power of the rings to give the holder the ability to appear alive) is the best answer.
Yes, I agree - it was just a side-effect of the Elven rings on mortals. ALL of the Rings (all the 19) were made for ELVES. It was Sauron's plan to distribute 9 among Men and 7 among Dwarves. The original design probably included "preservation" allowing the Elves not to fade, but to continue living in ME, enjoying life. The effect on Men was that they couldn't die and leave the Circles of the World- they had become like Elves in a way, only their bodies faded. But the Rings and their properties clearly deserve a special thread...

And, CAB, I meant not the "specific power of the rings to give the holder the ability to appear alive" but just the ring's ability to transfer a physical body not only from the World of Light into the World of Shadow (that they surely could do), but also back: from the Wraith-world, where the nazgul dwelt by default, into the World of Light.


Always a pleasure to discuss things with you, CAB. :)

[Rían]

Yes, I agree - it was just a side-effect of the Elven rings on mortals. ALL of the Rings (all the 19) were made for ELVES. It was Sauron's plan to distribute 9 among Men and 7 among Dwarves. The original design probably included "preservation" allowing the Elves not to fade, but to continue living in ME, enjoying life. The effect on Men was that they couldn't die and leave the Circles of the World- they had become like Elves in a way, only their bodies faded. Reminds me of one of those interesting essays in the HoME books about what happened if humans got to Valinor ... basically they'd be begging for death after awhile, IIRC ...

[Gordis]

Reminds me of one of those interesting essays in the HoME books about what happened if humans got to Valinor ... basically they'd be begging for death after awhile, IIRC ...
Strange... what essay is that Rian? Can you be more precise?

I think, whatever it may be, it contradicts both the Silm and the LOTR. :confused:

BTW, glad to see you again in the Tolkien forums. You are missed, you should really post here more often! :)

[Rían]

Yeah, I suppose I should, but I"m still kind of Tolkiened-out as far as posting in the Tolkien threads. I was almost entirely in the Tolkien threads years ago, though.

I found it - it's in Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed", in the subsection "Aman and Mortal Men". If you don't have it, I'll type some in for you :)

[CAB]

Gordis, concerning your point that Men would be more easily lead by “normal” looking Men, all I can really do is echo what I said before. I agree that they would be more likely to follow a seemingly regular person, but it is not required that a leader of Men be a normal human. The only evidence I have (or need) for this is Morgoth and Sauron. Both of these had many human servants at times when there was no way to mistake them for Men. Admittedly they were far stronger than any of the Nazgul, but this doesn’t disprove the point. Again, I agree that for the Nazgul to appear to be living would be helpful.

I would guess you are right about the Nazgul being able to see the World of Light while holding their rings. Having possession of the rings probably shored up some of their other weaknesses as well. For Sauron’s greatest servants, the Nazgul seem rather pathetic during the Lord of the Rings. This is almost certainly due to the fact that Sauron, rather than the Nazgul, was holding the Nine rings.

I am not really sure what to think about the Nazgul being able to transfer back and forth between the two different Worlds. I was under the impression that, while clothed, the Nazgul existed in both Worlds. If they shifted primarily (or entirely) into the Light World what would be the nature of their bodies? Would they be the same bodies that they had before? If so, why would they be considered wraiths? I don’t really know enough about this to have a strong opinion.



Here are the quotes from Unfinished Tales that made me think that perhaps Sauron had no Men in his army during the first Ring-war:

In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor’s body hung on a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows...
Ever afterwards Moria had Sauron’s hate, and all Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.
No mention of Men here, only Orcs...

But as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves...
Notice that this isn’t Free Men or Men of the Edain or Men of the West or Men not in the service of Sauron. Rather it seems to be all the Men in the area. Aside from the Numenoreans, this is the only mention of Men in these battles.

The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed.
If Men had been present in this army perhaps the Elves would have been more likely to take a few prisoners. Admittedly, when Angmar was defeated it’s army received the same treatment, and it definitely contained Men.

No one would mistake this for ironclad proof, but considering these points while also thinking of Sauron’s use of the rings, I began to think it was at least possible that Sauron had no Men in his army at this time in spite of the size and effectiveness of his forces.


Reminds me of one of those interesting essays in the HoME books about what happened if humans got to Valinor ... basically they'd be begging for death after awhile, IIRC ...
I seem to remember reading this. It has been several years since I looked at any of the HOME books. I think the point being made was that humans weren’t meant to live forever and in the type of “glory” in which the Elves of Valinor lived. This is a major theme of Akallabeth and can be found in much of Tolkien’s writing on Middle Earth. I agree that the effects of the rings on mortals is an example.

[Rían]

Here's a bit from that essay -

by JRRT, Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed", "Aman and Mortal Men"
... or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hröa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy...

I remember that bit because I thought it was kinda creepy - a human body running around without a soul ... :eek:

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Who says man is a rational animal? :p

[Gordis]

I would guess you are right about the Nazgul being able to see the World of Light while holding their rings. Having possession of the rings probably shored up some of their other weaknesses as well. For Sauron’s greatest servants, the Nazgul seem rather pathetic during the Lord of the Rings. This is almost certainly due to the fact that Sauron, rather than the Nazgul, was holding the Nine rings.
I agree that the advantage to see the World of Light and to be free of typical naz-phobias (save maybe fear of water?) is more important than the ability to look "normal".

I am not really sure what to think about the Nazgul being able to transfer back and forth between the two different Worlds. I was under the impression that, while clothed, the Nazgul existed in both Worlds. If they shifted primarily (or entirely) into the Light World what would be the nature of their bodies? Would they be the same bodies that they had before? If so, why would they be considered wraiths? I don’t really know enough about this to have a strong opinion.
My impression is that nobody can be sure about it. Tolkien himself was not sure, IMHO.

The problem is that Tolkien changed his conception of the nazgul bodies, right in the middle of writing LOTR, sometime during the first drafts of the Pelennor Battle. Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton!), or the monstrous birds (!). In the first drafts for the scene with Eowyn, she destroyed the Witch-King SIMPLY by cutting off the bird's head! By the way, there the WK only lost his shape, much like at the Ford, and was present again at the Parley (instead of the Mouth) and then even talked with Frodo after the Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Doom. But then, Tolkien decided that the bird was one thing, the nazgul was another- always man-shaped, and changed the Eowyn scene exactly as it is now.

But he didn't correct the "Fellowship" accordingly. Not all of it. .So Radagast's : "disguised as black riders", Gandalf's "` the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.' and all the issues with "losing shape" in Bruinen River are the reminders of the original conception.
And, to my knowledge, he never returned to this question in his later writings. But quite recently, I have found a most curious quote in the Notes following the Appendix to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth concerning reincarnated elves:
The resurrection of the body (at least as far as Elves were concerned) was in a sense incorporeal. But while it could pass physical barriers at will, it could at will oppose a barrier to matter. If you touched a resurrected body you felt it. Or if it willed it could simply elude you - disappear. Its position in space was at will.
To me, it sounds similar to what the later conception of the nazgul bodies may have been like.
I would say (pure conjecture) that the nazgul always had the same bodies, once living, now undead (they never died, or were resurrected). They mostly existed in the Spirit world, but, when they wanted, their bodies were present in the World of Light - only invisible. So they could wear clothes, ride horses and interact with the living. But maintaining the body in the physical world was a conscious act of will - so when the WK was slain, his body disappeared, moving by default into the spirit world.
Yet, I am completely uncertain about all of it. I know, some argue that the nazgul were simply invisible men- their bodies always present in the World of light, able (or even needing) to eat and drink. May be. What do you think?
Here are the quotes from Unfinished Tales that made me think that perhaps Sauron had no Men in his army during the first Ring-war...
You may be right. At least I believe, that there were MOSTLY orcs in Sauron's army.
If Men had been present in this army perhaps the Elves would have been more likely to take a few prisoners. Admittedly, when Angmar was defeated it’s army received the same treatment, and it definitely contained Men.
Very true. Elves had no qualms to kill Men, provided they considered them enemies. Neither did Gondoreans.

Rian, I made a special thread for your question.

[Rían]

oh, ok - just saw it ...

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I don't really have anything interesting or insightfull to add, just wanted to say I love coming in here and reading your guy's post (CAB and Gordis). :) I learn something I didn't know everytime I come here. Like this:
The problem is that Tolkien changed his conception of the nazgul bodies, right in the middle of writing LOTR, sometime during the first drafts of the Pelennor Battle. Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton!), or the monstrous birds (!). In the first drafts for the scene with Eowyn, she destroyed the Witch-King SIMPLY by cutting off the bird's head! By the way, there the WK only lost his shape, much like at the Ford, and was present again at the Parley (instead of the Mouth) and then even talked with Frodo after the Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Doom. But then, Tolkien decided that the bird was one thing, the nazgul was another- always man-shaped, and changed the Eowyn scene exactly as it is now.
I never knew that. I knew he changed the idea of the WK being one of the 2 wizards but had no idea about this one. I wonder what the convo with the WK and Frodo would've been like? Even what he would look like? Would he thank Frodo and appear the way he did before he became a wraith?

[Gordis]

Thank you, Faramir, it is quite flattering. For my part, I really enjoy discussing things with CAB and with you.

I wonder what the convo with the WK and Frodo would've been like? Even what he would look like? Would he thank Frodo and appear the way he did before he became a wraith?
There was not much of a conversation... And certainly no thanks given...

Here are the quotes. It was Udukhaturz who first posted these two bits in another thread.
http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=502840&postcount=81
Now, thanks to Udu, I will not have to type it anew.

Here is Version I
“Perhaps better would be to make Gollum repent in a way. He is utterly wretched, and commits suicide. Gollum has it, he cried. No one else shall have it. I will destroy you all. He leaps into crack. Fire goes mad. Frodo is like to be destroyed.
Nazgûl shape at the door. Frodo is caught in the fire-chamber and cannot get out!
“Here we all end together", said the Ring Wraith.
Frodo is too weary and lifeless to say nay.
“You first", said a voice, and Sam (with Sting?) stabs the Black Rider from behind.
Frodo and Sam escape and flee down mountain-side. But they could not escape the running molten lava. They see Eagles driving the Nazgûl. Eagles rescue them.”
-The Story of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, Version I, Sauron Defeated, p. 5

Here is Version II, which is more complicated than Version I

"Frodo puts on Ring! A great cry rings out. A great shadow swoops down from Baraddur, like a bird. The Wizard King is coming. Frodo feels him - the one who stabbed him under Weathertop. He is wearing Ring and has been seen. He struggles to take Ring off and cannot. The Nazgûl draws near as swift as storm. Frodo's one idea is to escape it, and without thinking of his errand he now flies into the Chamber of Fire. A great fissure goes across it from left to right. Fire boils in it. All goes dark to Frodo and he falls on his knees. At that moment Gollum arrives panting and grabs at the Ring. That rouses Frodo, and they fight on the brink of the chasm. Gollum breaks Frodo's finger and gets Ring. Frodo falls in swoon. But Sam who has now arrived rushes in suddenly and pushes Gollum over the brink. Gollum and Ring go into the Fire together. The Mountain boils and erupts. Barad-dur falls. A great dust and a dark shadow floats away on NE from the rising SW wind. Frodo suddenly thinks he can hear and smell Sea. A dreadful shuddering cry is borne away and until it dies far off all men and things stand still.
Frodo turns and sees door blocked by Wizard King. The mountain begins to erupt and crumble.
"Here we will perish together", said the Wizard King. But Frodo draws Sting. He no longer has any fear whatsoever. He is master of the Black Riders. He commands the Black Rider to follow the Ring his master and drives it into the fire.”
- The Story of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, Version II, Sauron Defeated, p. 6-7

[Udukhaturz]

I don't really have anything interesting or insightfull to add, just wanted to say I love coming in here and reading your guy's post (CAB and Gordis). :)

I am a lot like Faramir. I don't have anything really helpful to say sometimes, but I like to go here and read what Gordis and CAB post. I feel guilty sometimes that I don't have anything to add. To say that I appreciate their insights is an understatement. Keep it coming!

[Gordis]

I am a lot like Faramir. I don't have anything really helpful to say sometimes, but I like to go here and read what Gordis and CAB post. I feel guilty sometimes that I don't have anything to add. To say that I appreciate their insights is an understatement. Keep it coming!
Thanks, Udu. :)
I am sure you have somnething to say! Especially, about my ravings on nazgul bodies... I am absolutely uncertain about this matter myself. :)

For instance, what happened at the Ford? Were the nazgul bodies simply sorely wounded? Or did they move into the spirit wotld entirely, unable to return back into the physical world without Sauron's help (or more likely not Sauron's, but their Rings' help)? It seems they had to return to Mordor, as best they could, for healing.

[Udukhaturz]

Gordis,

Though I have spent much time in pondering and questioning, I am not clear upon the matter myself. Since Tolkien said nothing definite, anything I say is purely conjecture. About all I will state in the way of an absolute is: the Nazgul are unlike any other supernatural phenomena that is commonly found in myth, legend, superstition, and/or fiction. They are original, the works of Tolkien’s hand and his alone. Essentially I consider them as invisible men more or less preserved, capable of reasonable thought, surrounded by a magic “force field.”

That said, I will go on. What do we know about wraiths, ghosts, etc. in literature and/or legend?

1. The wraiths are not ghosts, which are disembodied spirits or souls of humans usually. Often they seem to be associated with a place, person, event and are more or less trapped to stay there (although there are accounts in lore of “ghosts following people home.” I will not comment upon that.) Usually, they are insubstantial vapors.
2. This separates Nazgul from demons, djinns, evil spirits, etc. which are in a whole other category that can have physical manifestation. Read Burton’s version of 1001 Arabian Nights to see their romantic prowesses if you doubt this.
3. They are not zombies, corpses reanimated by magic.

Going back to Number One, how do we know they are not ghosts, disembodied spirits? Tolkien tells us so.

"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later, the dark power will devour him." - Gandalf, "The Shadow of the Past," Fellowship of the Ring, p.56

If they are not dead, they cannot be ghosts, only INVISIBLE MEN.

"Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion, p.289

It hardly seems likely that they are demons, djinns, etc., or Tolkien would have told us that. (See above)

Zombies, no. They are simply dead bodies that are made to move around by some form of magic.

What what does this leave us?

Invisible, magic men.

In Tolkien’s earlier versions, he had them as almost maia-like shapeshifters who could turn themselves into giant vultures.

I think our confusion lies in this. Tolkien did rewrites constantly. As Gordis said, “The problem is that Tolkien changed his conception of the nazgul bodies, right in the middle of writing LOTR, sometime during the first drafts of the Pelennor Battle. Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton!), or the monstrous birds (!).”

At least we know or have a good idea of what they are not, but as to what they are will always be a matter of pure conjecture. I am sticking with the invisible, magic men. :)

[Gordis]

Udu I agree that the nazgul are not djinns, or ghosts, or zombies. In Tolkien's world, IMHO, demons are Maiar, ghosts are also present - dead men of Dunharrow. As for the zombies, the closer one can get are the Barrow wights, but they are decaying bodies inhabited by evil spirits, not exactly zombies, but close.
The nazgul and the Morgul-knife victims are wraiths, with clear physical side, some hroa always present. Most likely, it is the same body they had while alive, otherwise they should have passed through a re-incarnation, which is a difficult thing even for a maia. Once their body is slain, they won't be re-incarnated again. That is consistent with the end of the LOTR, but, unfortunately, not with the beginning. *sigh*.

If they are not dead, they cannot be ghosts, only INVISIBLE MEN.
As I said, there are problems with the beginning of the LOTR (inevitable it seems). But also: why couldn't they be slain by arrows? Of course, you can postulate a magic shield, but that is just a guess.... And, why is there no body left when the WK dies?
I know, all these questions are hard to answer anyway... I wish Tolkien had developed his nazgul conception further.

By the way, aren't the nazgul very similar to FADED Elves that Tolkien calls "the lingerers"? They have physical invisible bodies and they are not dead.

Thinking of the Lingerers, perhaps they were the reason why Celebrimbor made the interaction with the Spirit World one of the properties (if not the main property) of the Nine Rings? Perhaps the Elves wanted to communicate with their faded kin, still living in ME? Perhaps they even wanted to help the Faded ones to become visible again?

[Udukhaturz]

As I said, there are problems with the beginning of the LOTR (inevitable it seems). But also: why couldn't they be slain by arrows? Of course, you can postulate a magic shield, but that is just a guess.... And, why is there no body left when the WK dies?
I know, all these questions are hard to answer anyway... I wish Tolkien had developed his nazgul conception further.

Gordis, just a stab in the dark - "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." - The Battle of Pelennor Fields, Return of the King, p.120

Obviouly the spell had been undone and the Witch-king's body was subject to harm. As to what happened to his body, I will posit this: as so happens in legends/literature, his body crumpled to dust, like Saruman's, when Eowyn gave him the death blow in the skull.

Thinking of the Lingerers, perhaps they were the reason why Celebrimbor made the interaction with the Spirit World one of the properties (if not the main property) of the Nine Rings? Perhaps the Elves wanted to communicate with their faded kin, still living in ME? Perhaps they even wanted to help the Faded ones to become visible again?

That is a possibility, but I was always under the impression that the Lingerers, if they wished, could become visible, if only to the mind. There is a quote on this but I don't have the time right now to look for it. Maybe someone else can look for it.

[Gordis]

Gordis, just a stab in the dark - "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." - The Battle of Pelennor Fields, Return of the King, p.120

Obviouly the spell had been undone and the Witch-king's body was subject to harm. As to what happened to his body, I will posit this: as so happens in legends/literature, his body crumpled to dust, like Saruman's, when Eowyn gave him the death blow in the skull.
Some spll was undone, sure. But I always read it more literally: the spell that knit his body to his will, i.e. he lost control over his body and fell to his knees. Anyone would do that with his knee ligaments damaged. And that gave Eowyn an opening she could never dream to have.
But I know: it is just conjecture. Your way to interpret it is as good as mine :) .

That is a possibility, but I was always under the impression that the Lingerers, if they wished, could become visible, if only to the mind. There is a quote on this but I don't have the time right now to look for it. Maybe someone else can look for it.
Couldn't find the quote, though I believe I know it. Yes, they could communicate with the living- ?by Osanwe kenta?, but hardly they could become visible.

[CAB]

Thank you to Faramir, Udukhaturz, and Gordis for your kind words.

I agree that questions regarding the nature of the Nazguls’ existence are especially difficult, if not impossible, to answer. We have Tolkien’s changing view, the clearly different (without the differences being clearly defined) states between ringless and ringholding Nazgul, and also, as Udukhaturz very nicely pointed out, the fact that the Nazgul are unique beings with no real parallels in earlier myth. Maybe this is part of what makes them so interesting.


The resurrection of the body (at least as far as Elves were concerned) was in a sense incorporeal. But while it could pass physical barriers at will, it could at will oppose a barrier to matter. If you touched a resurrected body you felt it. Or if it willed it could simply elude you - disappear. Its position in space was at will.Gordis may be right. This could be similar to the later conception of the Nazgul. Personally, I hope not. I could be reading this passage wrong, but this sounds like “super powers” to me. It doesn’t seem to fit in Tolkien’s world as I see it. Do you know, Gordis, if Tolkien was merely considering this about resurrected Elves (like Rian said he was only considering the passage about mortals in Valinor)?

Concerning the Lingerers, do you remember in which book Tolkien discusses them? I would like to look at that.

[Gordis]

Gordis may be right. This could be similar to the later conception of the Nazgul. Personally, I hope not. I could be reading this passage wrong, but this sounds like “super powers” to me. It doesn’t seem to fit in Tolkien’s world as I see it. Do you know, Gordis, if Tolkien was merely considering this about resurrected Elves (like Rian said he was only considering the passage about mortals in Valinor)?

I think it fits with the text of the LOTR. There it applied only to Glorfindel. And the guy DID have "super powers":
LOTR: And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'

EDIT: By the way, I got an impression that the nazgul feared Glorfindel more than they feared Gandalf the Maia. They attacked the wizard at Weathertop - but they ran from Glofindel patrolling the Road near Last Bridge.


Here is the quote about the Lingerers - faded invisible Elves, who still dwell in ME, but mostly belong to the World of Shadow:
Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), The Later Quenta Sil., Laws and Customs among the Eldar

“the Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully"
“Moreover, the Lingerers are not houseless, though they may seem to be. They do not desire bodies, neither do they seek shelter, nor strive for mastery over body or mind. Indeed they do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rarely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fair. Then they may reveal to him their forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty.”

“Thus it may be seen that those who in latter days hold that the Elves are dangerous to Men and that it is folly or wickedness to seek converse with them do not speak without reason. For how, it may be asked, shall a mortal distinguish the kinds [Lingerers and Houseless]?”

“Yet the answer is not in truth difficult. Evil is not one thing among Elves and another among Men. Those who give evil counsel, or speak against the Rulers (or if they dare, against the One), are evil, and should be shunned whether bodied or unbodied.”

The passage I marked seems very interesting - it seems to corroborate my idea that a nazgul may also appear visible, if he wished, by the same mind-trick as the Lingerers ("through his mind working outwardly, maybe").

[CAB]

I think it fits with the text of the LOTR. There it applied only to Glorfindel. And the guy DID have "super powers":
I am going to try to leave the whole “Super Glorfindel” (with cape and tights, no doubt, and maybe the badge of Turgon’s house emblazoned on his chest) thing alone after this. There is no point trying to argue with something that Tolkien himself wrote and I would look like a fool for trying. These powers just seem excessive to me. Gandalf said that Glorfindel couldn’t “open the road to the Fire” but with these powers he wouldn’t need to. He could just walk/float the Ring right to Orodruin. Probably no one but Sauron, if even he, could oppose him.

Here is the quote about the Lingerers - faded invisible Elves, who still dwell in ME, but mostly belong to the World of Shadow:

The passage I marked seems very interesting - it seems to corroborate my idea that a nazgul may also appear visible, if he wished, by the same mind-trick as the Lingerers ("through his mind working outwardly, maybe").
Thank you for the quote Gordis. That is interesting. I think you are right that this is a good example of how the Nazgul might have operated.


Also, while reading the recent posts on this thread, I came across some evidence that the Witch King wasn’t entirely successful in maintaining the illusion of himself as a living Man (assuming he intended this).

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." - The Battle of Pelennor Fields, Return of the King
Udukhaturz recently posted this quote regarding another question on this thread. I think it shows (along with other quotes about the swords from the barrow) that though the Witch King may have deluded his own followers, he certainly didn’t fool the Dunedain of Arnor. It’s too bad none of them are around. They probably could have explained the nature of the Nazgul to us quite well.

[Gordis]

I am going to try to leave the whole “Super Glorfindel” (with cape and tights, no doubt, and maybe the badge of Turgon’s house emblazoned on his chest) thing alone after this. There is no point trying to argue with something that Tolkien himself wrote and I would look like a fool for trying. These powers just seem excessive to me. Gandalf said that Glorfindel couldn’t “open the road to the Fire” but with these powers he wouldn’t need to. He could just walk/float the Ring right to Orodruin. Probably no one but Sauron, if even he, could oppose him.
I agree with you here. Somehow I have grown to dislike Morgoth's Ring and all the latest changes to well-established concepts. The Elves became more and more powerful and holier and holier (Galadriel was especially washed from all her sins). The contrast with the merry and often silly elves from the Hobbit becomes drastic. Orcs were originally made from Elves, but then again Tolkien decided to change this. And so on and so on...

Also, while reading the recent posts on this thread, I came across some evidence that the Witch King wasn’t entirely successful in maintaining the illusion of himself as a living Man (assuming he intended this).
...
Udukhaturz recently posted this quote regarding another question on this thread. I think it shows (along with other quotes about the swords from the barrow) that though the Witch King may have deluded his own followers, he certainly didn’t fool the Dunedain of Arnor. It’s too bad none of them are around. They probably could have explained the nature of the Nazgul to us quite well.

Yes, the swords from the Barrows.
First of all, these were swords from the war in TA 1409 - fairly early in Angmar's history. By that time, the Dunedain couldn't yet become enlightened by the Witch-King VERY long life span.

So perhaps the blades were enspelled against the King of Angmar personally - not against a nazgul. It could have been done without knowledge of his nature.

Or, alternatively, the Dunedain of Cardolan may have learned about the WK's true nature - for example from the Elves of Rivendell, besieged by Angmar just prior to this war. It is interesting what this siege was like... Most likely Elrond had his defences made with the help of his Ring - like the flooding Bruinen River and similar ones. Perhaps the WK came and tried to breach them using his Ring? That would have made him obvious to Elrond...

So probably Men of Cardolan knew who the Witch-King was. But maybe their knowledge died with them? Or simply the know-how of the blades making was lost? It doesn't seem that anyone had such a blade in the battle of Fornost.

[jammi567]

Everyone, thanks for putting your thoughts down because as i read lotr again, it makes the book all that more interesting. Anyways, i have a question: when Sauron got the 16 rings, did he give them out all at once, or over a period of time?

[Gordis]

Jammy, if you want to ask a new question, you should make a new thread. :)

[Butterbeer]

why?

[Gordis]

Because. ;)

[jammi567]

still waiting...

[Olmer]

still waiting...
What do you think?
Give us your own inside on Sauron's rings distribution. :)

[mithrand1r]

What do you think?
Give us your own inside on Sauron's rings distribution. :)

If I were Sauron, I would distribute the rings to those who could benefit me the most. ;) (I would think this would be powerful people that he could ensnare under his dominion. This would enhance his control over Middle Earth.)

(Unfortunately I have not read most of this thread so I can not add more to this discussion.)

[Olmer]

If I were Sauron, I would distribute the rings to those who could benefit me the most. ;) (I would think this would be powerful people that he could ensnare under his dominion. This would enhance his control over Middle Earth.)

Funny, the same ideas,as yours was expressed by other people in another threadhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=13107&page=3
So, I think, it's answering jammi567 question. Case closed. ;) :)

[jammi567]

Funny, the same ideas,as yours was expressed by other people in another threadhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=13107&page=3
So, I think, it's answering jammi567 question. Case closed. ;) :)
Still doesn't answer whether Sauron gave them out all at once, or if the gave to the most powerful king(s) first (eg. the witch king) to practice their dark sorcery first because he/they were more powerful to begin with.

[Gordis]

If I were Sauron, I would distribute the rings to those who could benefit me the most. ;) (I would think this would be powerful people that he could ensnare under his dominion. This would enhance his control over Middle Earth.)

I believe you are right. The Rings were not gifts to Sauron's faithful servants (it is a very widespread mistake to see them this way). They were "poisonous" gifts to powerful enemies, psychological weapons, that were able to turn his worst enemies into his servants.

And Jammi, nobody knows whether the Rings were distributed all at once (highly unlikely), or over a period of time. Sauron obtained the Rings in SA 1697. Ringwraiths (all the 9? or some of them? or the first one?) appeared in SA 2251. That is all we know.

[Butterbeer]

remember that the nine were not made by Sauron,

nor were they inherently of themselves evil ....

it was only the creation and design and nature of the one that ensnared them ..

even then it took many many years for the ring bearers to become enslaved ...

and this with sauron at his potent heights ... truly, how much possesion or control did he have on the nine after his meeting with Elendil and sons the 'finger-slicing' franchise .... ????

when he became a wandering dis-embodied spirit?

Who here, thus doubts that the Nazgul effectively became "free " for this time?

[jammi567]

in my personal opinion, i believe Sauron had to be focusing on them to be able to control them. so when they were serching for the Ring aroung Anduin, he was throrughly serching there because that's where he know it last was. once he realized it wasn't there, and gollum said 'shire' and 'baggins', he let the nazgul have their free will back because a) he had other things to focus on, and b) they're his most loyal servents, and so should be able to find it quickly and efficiantly. of course, once they got their will back, they also recovered their former fears etc. i think this is the best senario with the conflicting evidence we've got, both from UT and letters, as well as lotr itself. what do you guys think.

[jammi567]

I'm going to post this post so it's at the top of the list, and that so people notice it again. :)

[jammi567]

common people, this is/was a very intersting thread that deserves to have the amount of popsting that happened on this thread here (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?p=554675#post554675).

[Gordis]

common people, this is/was a very intersting thread that deserves to have the amount of popsting that happened on this thread here (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?p=554675#post554675).
Thank you, Jammi, for trying to keep this thread active. I admit this thread is my favorite - here is the only theory where I have priority, it seems. :)


But I would like the discussion concentrate on the main topic:
When did Sauron take the Rings from the Nine and how was it done?
Have they surrendered their rings willingly (as Martinez supposes?) or unwillingly?
What about the relations between the WK in Carn Dum and the Necromancer in Mirkwood?

[jammi567]

When did Sauron take the Rings from the Nine and how was it done?
Have they surrendered their rings willingly (as Martinez supposes?) or unwillingly?
What about the relations between the WK in Carn Dum and the Necromancer in Mirkwood?
1) I recon that Sauron took the nine rings from the nazgul when they were fully in the wraith world, but then gave them back to them just before he was captured by the numomoriens, so that they could scare people and/or try and control them whilst he was away. Once he came back, i believe that he didn't want them back because he wanted them to be at their maximum effectiness, so to speack, either at the battle of the last alliance, or in the lands of Gondor and/or Arnor, getting the people to make them leaders, once Sauron won the war. Of course, that didn't work, so the next chance, i believe, he had to take the rings would be when the tower of Bara-dur was built again ie. 2951 because he was stronger then he was in ages, so he had much more chance at controling them effectively. so he did, and he kept them for himself until near the end of 3018, where he gave them back so they could be strong again to give Sauron that edge in weakening, and eventually distroying, Gondor.
2) I believe that the first time he did it, the nazgul gave them up willingly, because as it says in the rhyme of lore "One Ring to rule them all". And if you're a ruler, you're servents have to do what you tell them. but when he did it a second time, i think that he had a bit of a struggle because this time, he was much weaker, as well as, if we are to believe that they had their free will still, then they wouldn't have wanted to give them up, as it gave them lots of power to control other people, as well as terrify more then without their rings.
3) On this, i have no idea about, sorry :).

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[jammi567]

Actually, on number 3), after thinking about it, i do have something on it. i would think that there wouldn't bee much communication for several reasons:
1) Sauron is too weak to ask for the witch-kings ring back to try and control him again.
2) the witch-king most likely hated Saurons guts for enslaving him forever.
3) the witch-king enjoyed having power and having his own kindom again, and also probally thought that anything said to try and get him to go to Mirkwood was a trick, so wouldn't have listerned to him.