Could he be overthrown?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If Galadriel or Elrond claimed the One could they have overthrown Sauron. Sauron was a Maia spirit as was Gamdalf and Saruman which is why I didn't include them, but would the power of an elf bearing the One, be enough to overthrow a powerful Maia?

[Haradrim]

well T.D. I think that depends on how strong you think that Elrond and Galadriel are. As I think most of us agree they were the strongest of the elves at the time. If the ring had manifested enough power in them then yes they could have overthrown Sauron. But another thing is that we have no idea how the ring would work for an elf. It usually gives you the power you most want. Hobbits are very sly and clever and therefore invisibility would be a most excellent gift for them. However Elves as Elrond and Galadriel most want to preserve their lands so maybe it would do the same as the three did but to a much greater level.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I doubt it. That was the power of th three, but the power of the One was destruction. There is another discussion going on about this in the 'Why did the Ring betray Isildur thread' if you want to check it out.

[Gordis]

We know so little about the functioning of the rings...
On one hand ,Sauron himself with the One could not take over the ME in the SA.
On the other hand, Sauron was really worried, when he thought that Aragorn has got his ring and was planning to use it (after the Palantir session). I think Sauron's problem at the end of the TA was that he relied mostly on the 9 nazgul and 3 of the 7 Dwarven Rings that he has gathered to himself. If ANYONE wielded the One, Sauron would be very much under control himself, so he would be obliged to destrow his ring collection or bury it real deep. And then he will have problems controlling the nazgul and probably even orcs?...Though the orcs, IMHO, could be controlled without any additional power devices.

[me9996]

If Galadriel or Elrond claimed the One could they have overthrown Sauron. Sauron was a Maia spirit as was Gamdalf and Saruman which is why I didn't include them, but would the power of an elf bearing the One, be enough to overthrow a powerful Maia?
Nah espesaly if it's the Maias ring :D

[Haradrim]

But where does it say the ring was a destructive ring. IT was used that way by Sauron. But under Bilbo and Frodo it was used for going invisible. Not a very destructive force I might say. But then again Bilbo and Frodo never really tried to do anything else with it. Wouldnt it be embarassing for Frodo if he coudl have used the power to teleport himself ontop of Mt. Doom from Rivendell. THen because he used it only once just drop it in. THat would be quite ironic. Mind you I havent read HoME. So maybe its explained somwehere in there.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

We know so little about the functioning of the rings...
On one hand ,Sauron himself with the One could not take over the ME in the SA.
On the other hand, Sauron was really worried, when he thought that Aragorn has got his ring and was planning to use it (after the Palantir session). I think Sauron's problem at the end of the TA was that he relied mostly on the 9 nazgul and 3 of the 7 Dwarven Rings that he has gathered to himself. If ANYONE wielded the One, Sauron would be very much under control himself, so he would be obliged to destrow his ring collection or bury it real deep. And then he will have problems controlling the nazgul and probably even orcs?...Though the orcs, IMHO, could be controlled without any additional power devices.
Sauron would not have been under control himself. He was not wearing Ring and the Rng had been severed from him. That's why he wanted the One back.

[Haradrim]

well if were now sayign that Sauron was not responsible for his actions after the ring was put on his finger then how do w know that he in fact did anything wrong. The ring was merely controlling him and he shouldnt be held accoutnable for it. Even his making of the ring shouldnt be considered evil merely intellectual theft of the elves. Im not saying I believe this though I wonder how many people I could tick off by doing so.

[Gordis]

Sauron would not have been under control himself. He was not wearing Ring and the Rng had been severed from him. That's why he wanted the One back.
At the time of LOTR Sauron was wearing 9 nazgul rings. With them he controlled the nazgul. He also had three of the 7. It is canon!
So, if anybody started wielding the One, Sauron will be controlled by this person -the new Ringlord - as an owner of 12 rings.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i believe it is said somewhere that the rings of power granted mortals invisibility, haradrim, not just bilbo and frodo

elrond would have been able to overthrow sauron, he had the strains of elda, atani and maiar in him, galadriel was incredibly powerful, she coulfd have overthrown sauron, but would have become an immensely powerful, and ultimately evil, character, cirdan is the only one i would have trusted the one ring to, but even he would have turned to darkness

[Butterbeer]

i think that Tolkien strongly hints that even Boromir, a mighty warrior and leader of men could with the power of the ring overcome and defeat Sauron: this more by raising armies and his power of battle and leadership than any internal "Power" eg as captain he holds off the attacks on Gondor but cannot hold the men in the face of the terror of the Nazgul: with his will to win and fight and defend his people and the one ring of power; the ring to rule them all on his hand i have no doubt he could then resist the NINE - whether the users of the ring would thus be ensnared to him i know not but my feeling is that either sauron ditches the rings he has or allows the ring-lord to control him through his control of those rings (at whatever point the new ring lord learns how to do so - as it is not a given that it would automatically happen overnight if at all?): it's stated that sauron was affraid of what mighty one may suddenly appear bringing war with the ring etc: certainly he feared Isludir's heir, also therefore elrond, galadriel, Gandalf etc all could have defeated him, but is not the point that ultimately the ring (or Sauron if you like as the greater part of his strength or spirit was in the ring) would have won (kind of) in that the ring would have corrupted the bearer as Gandalf, Elrond and Galdriel all testify to? That it was too powerful and too tempting but ultimately evil. Gandalf: i would use it with a will to do good, but htrough me ... galdriel: instead of a .. queen of the night all love me and despair etc: does this not tell us that the ring is different to the three or the nine or the 7 etc: it was made as cereimbor noticed to domineer and forcibly take the other rings, it was a ring that desired power and domination: and if wielded by a will of adamant could be lethal and all powerful.
My understanding though was that it would take time to control and learn to use the ring to the full - so would they have had time if it hadn't been destroyed?

[Haradrim]

Hey wait I have a question if Sauron didnt have the onering how did he control the nine. Cuza they were corrupted byt the ring and answered to it. Shouldnt they have served whoever had it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Hey wait I have a question if Sauron didnt have the onering how did he control the nine. Cuza they were corrupted byt the ring and answered to it. Shouldnt they have served whoever had it.
The nine didn't serve whoever had the One. Sauron seduced them with the Nine, not the One, the bearer of the One, whether it was Isildur, Deagol or Smealgol had no interest in having ultimate control of ME.

[Butterbeer]

The nine didn't serve whoever had the One. Sauron seduced them with the Nine, not the One, the bearer of the One, whether it was Isildur, Deagol or Smealgol had no interest in having ultimate control of ME.

Ah, but what if he did?
Or would the ring only truly control in full the other rings if they were all joined (one ring to bind them) i.e. if Sauron - or whoever - got the three as well?

[Gordis]

...if wielded by a will of adamant could be lethal and all powerful.
My understanding though was that it would take time to control and learn to use the ring to the full - so would they have had time if it hadn't been destroyed?
I agree entirely with you, Butterbeer. To overthrow Sauron the new Ringlord required both the will of adamant and some knowledge how to use the ring. Because of the latter Boromir and Aragorn would have had more problems IMHO, than any of the bearers of the Three or Saruman, who studied the subject for many years. But eventually even a Men would learn. Sauron understood it, that is why, when he saw Aragorn in the palantir and thought that he had the Ring, he has not destroyed his 12 rings or buried them deep immediately, but decided instead to start the war EARLIER than planned (before the Man learned how to use the full power of the One).

Hey wait I have a question if Sauron didnt have the onering how did he control the nine. Cuza they were corrupted byt the ring and answered to it. Shouldnt they have served whoever had it.
The nine didn't serve whoever had the One. Sauron seduced them with the Nine, not the One, the bearer of the One, whether it was Isildur, Deagol or Smealgol had no interest in having ultimate control of ME. .

Those are very interesting points. Yes, Sauron seduced the Kings with the Nine, not the One. But the One controlled the Nine.
The Nine with their rings on would have served ANY RINGLORD, powerful enough to wield the One to its full power. Sauron lost the One, but the cunning Maia took the 9 from the nazgul, so, at the time of LOTR, he wore the 9 rings himself (a ring per finger :p ) and thus controlled the nazgul. But, being evil wraiths, the nazgul must still be influenced by the One as well. The One probably had power over all evil beings (see Sam intimidating orcs at the tower of Cirith Ungol).
So if the new ringlord appeared, the nazgul would be torn by conflicting wills (Sauron's through the 9 and new ringlord's through the One). Moreover, Sauron would not be able to continue wearing the nine rings, because that would put HIMSELF under control of the new ringlord with the One. He will then have two options: 1. hide the 9, then the nazgul would be free to desert to the new Ringlord. 2. destroy the 9: then IMHO the nazgul will be destroyed as well, but poor Sauron will be left with only 3 dwarven rings that he could not wield either.

Or would the ring only truly control in full the other rings if they were all joined (one ring to bind them) i.e. if Sauron - or whoever - got the three as well? I think Saurons idea was to give all the rings to promising holders and to control them and their realms through the One. All was more or less well while he had the One himself, but in the TA, when he "awoke" weak and ringless in Mirkwood (about TA 1100) and could not find his ring, he had no other option but to start collecting the 7 and the 9 to himself.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Those are very interesting points. Yes, Sauron seduced the Kings with the Nine, not the One. But the One controlled the Nine.
The Nine with their rings on would have served ANY RINGLORD, powerful enough to wield the One to its full power
That's what I adressed in the second part of my post. After Sauron, the Ringbearers didn't want ultimate control of ME at the time of bearing the One so the Ulari wouldn't have served them, but someone who did desire ultimate control and power.

Also, I'm curious, where does it say that Sauron wear the Nine? I presumed the Nazgûl did.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

IIRC, sauron does indeed not only control, but physically wear the nine, but seeing as he has only nine fingers (what with Isildur's "help"), if he got the One, which Nazgul ring would he remove? The witch king i would presume, seeing as how, in UT, it is stated that he was the one of the nine most bent to his master's will.

[Earniel]

I doubt that Sauron would physically wear the Nine. I rather think the Nazgul would still need them in some way. Although it might be simply because a Dark Lord with 9 rings would looks so.... silly.

I also doubt that any Men or Elf would be able to unlock the whole potential of the Ring like Sauron could. Sauron poured much of his strength into that Ring, so it would stand to reason that he alone could wield it. The Ring desired greatly to return to Sauron, not to be worn by any other great lord or lady.

Nevertheless, an opponent, who could put at least a portion of the power of the One to use to rally armies and gather strength, could still be a great enemy to Mordor and might eventually come out victorious, but only by means of arms and Sauron would not be destroyed as he was when the One was destroyed.

[Haradrim]

Wel IMO I dont think Sauron wore the 9. Cuz if he did how would the Nine have had their powers. Also IMO they were corrupted because the one ahd the power to control all the other rings. Unfortunately the elves took theirs offf and the dwarves didnt really do much except get really greedy. So he controlled the nine because he held the one and they responded to the one. When Isildur went and chopped off hsi finger the Nazgul should have stopped listening to Sauron. Or mayeb not immediately but gradually. (old dogs. New tricks and such) So why would they have followed him in LOTR.

Another question. Does it ever actually say that they served Sauron in LOTR. I mead Gandalf says they heard their masters call but couldnt that also mean the ring. As the ring was really the master.

Of course this is all IMO.

[Morgoth the Elfbit]

I totally agree Haradrim. Your ideas are well founded and you are obivously a very intelligent young adult. I wish I could be you and everything you are. THough seriosuly to add on to what I said earliar I think maybe Sauronhad them under his influence for so long that they just no longer require the ring to be in his possesion. OR it could be as I think Olmer said somewhere. THe ring transfers powers back to Sauron which is why he coudl see you when you wore it. SO therefore he could still control the nine.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Perhaps there was some element of the One in the Nazgûl. In UT it says that they had no other will but their masters, could that mean that Sauron has somehow made part of himself part of them?

[Gordis]

Also, I'm curious, where does it say that Sauron wear the Nine? I presumed the Nazgûl did.

Most of the evidence points to the opinion that at the end of the Third Age Sauron himself held the 9 rings.
1. Gandalf tells Frodo at Bag End: "So it is now; the Nine he had gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still."
2. Galadriel tells Frodo in Lothlorien: "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine"
3.The Hunt for the Ring in UT: "At length he(Sauron) resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held." and also: "They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held..."
4. The most definitive statement comes from Tolkien' Letter #246describing the situation of Frodo at the Cracks of Doom:
"Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring...But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Rings's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination? Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings(which he held) had primary control of their wills..."

Moreover, there is indirect evidence: 1. when Frodo saw the Nazgul in spirit word at Weathertop he saw no rings. 2. When the Witch-King was killed no ring was left.

And really, why would the nazgul, if they still had their rings, answer to the ringless Sauron? Out of love and devotion? I think they were not able to feel anything like that. No, Sauron had them hooked by their own rings that had enslaved them long ago.

IIRC, sauron does indeed not only control, but physically wear the nine, but seeing as he has only nine fingers (what with Isildur's "help"), if he got the One, which Nazgul ring would he remove? The witch king i would presume, seeing as how, in UT, it is stated that he was the one of the nine most bent to his master's will.
I am not sure he physically wore the nine, I figure he put on the respective ring only if he had to interact with one of the nazgul: to send an order, to enforce his will on the nazgul, to check his thought or to "empower with demonic force." (see Letter #210,9, JRRT)
And IMHO the Witch King's ring was the one Sauron treasured most of all. It is NOT stated anywhere that the Witch-King was the one of the nine most bent to his master's will. On the contrary: "the Witch-King, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others (Letter #210,9, JRRT) IMHO that means that to control the powerful and strong-willed Witch King, Sauron needed the WK's ring all the more. If the WK were given his ring back, he would be free from Sauron.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

OK thanks for the quotes.

Chrys I don't think he could physically wear them as he himslef couldn't yet tyake phisycal form and the eye couldn't be seen unless by the power of the Rings.

[Gordis]

OK thanks for the quotes.
Chrys I don't think he could physically wear them as he himslef couldn't yet tyake phisycal form and the eye couldn't be seen unless by the power of the Rings.
Always happy to be able to provide quotes.

The idea that Sauron could not yet take physical form belongs to Jackson's movie (Saruman's words). According to books, Sauron was incarnate, had hideous appearence, and had 9 fingers, which Gollum saw himself.

[Earniel]

Most of the evidence points to the opinion that at the end of the Third Age Sauron himself held the 9 rings.
1. Gandalf tells Frodo at Bag End: "So it is now; the Nine he had gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still."
2. Galadriel tells Frodo in Lothlorien: "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine" [....]
I don't think that 'hold' as to signify 'to hold physically in his hand'.

If -as I think - much of Sauron's own power was in the One Ring, the Ringwraiths would have both a connection to the Ring and Sauron himself.

You make an interesting case, Gordis, but I'm not convinced. ;)

[Gordis]

You make an interesting case, Gordis, but I'm not convinced.

I have found another quote for you, Eärniel:

In HOME vol. VIII, "The War of the Ring" in the chapter "The Siege of Gondor":
In the fair copy manuscript of the account of Faramir's rescue by Gandalf Tolkien added in pencil: "The Nazgul came once again, slaves of the Nine Rings, and to each, since now they were utterly subject to his will, their Lord had given again that ring of power that he used of old"
This was afterwards replaced by the words in RK: "The Nazgul came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror.

IMHO that means that from the start Tolkien "knew" that the nazgul had no rings as it was Sauron that held them. Why did he change the passage? IMHO he realized that for Sauron to give them back their rings meant no less than to surrender the devices that made the nazgul "utterly subject to his will".
Once Sauron got the One ring he would be able to give the 9 back to the owners, but not before!

Convinced now?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But if Sauron wasn't giving the Nine to the Nazgûl beacause they could just run off with them, then they could do that after Sauron had the One.

[Gordis]

But if Sauron wasn't giving the Nine to the Nazgûl beacause they could just run off with them, then they could do that after Sauron had the One.

No, of course they could not! The wielder of the ONE controlled the owners of the Nine. That was the situation throughout the Second age. Without the One Sauron had to get the Nine Rings instead.

[Morgoth the Elfbit]

The only flaw I see in this entire really well developed argument is this. IF Sauron had to take the nine back after he lsot the one. How did he do it. IF the one was chopped of the 9 woul dgo yippee were free lets go back and opppress our former realms. THey wouldnt have given up the ring to Sauron.
So thats the only reason why It thinkt hey still healdf the ring. But ti doesnt explain why Suaorn could still control them. Unless he ahd just complete control over them with or without their rings.

[Jon S.]

It is overly simplistic to say the One Ring "turned mortals invisible." Yes, mortals became invisible but what actually happened is the Ring's power shifted the wearer from the physical world of mortals to the spiritual/incarnate/immortal world of the Valar and Maia. That's why the Ringbearers don't age while they have the Ring. There's tons of support for this in the Books. The FAQ of the Ring description is worth reading:

http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvWhy

[Gordis]

The only flaw I see in this entire really well developed argument is this. IF Sauron had to take the nine back after he lsot the one. How did he do it. IF the one was chopped of the 9 woul dgo yippee were free lets go back and opppress our former realms. THey wouldnt have given up the ring to Sauron.
Congratulations, Morgoth the Elfbit, for your logic! You have put your finger right on the problem. But, IMHO, it is not a flaw in the theory, but just a logical consequence of it. I am starting a new tread on the problem: "Were the nazgul free?"

Thank you, Jon S., for suggesting an excellent FAQ reference.

Welcome to the Moot!

[me9996]

The difinitive anser: [No

[Lenya]

I don't know. Maybe if Galadriel and Elrond worked together they could overthrow Sauron, but I doubt if they had the cunning and strengh to do so. Deffinately when Sauron was a necromancer, but not when he had his full army behind him in the battle for the ring at the end of the Third Age. Though I do believe the ring would have make whoever wore it considerably stronger, if that person intended to take supreme command - for that's what the ring yearned for. I think it would not try to destroy its bearer if he shared the ring's interests.

[CrazySquirrel]

I don't know. Maybe if Galadriel and Elrond worked together they could overthrow Sauron, but I doubt if they had the cunning and strengh to do so. Deffinately when Sauron was a necromancer, but not when he had his full army behind him in the battle for the ring at the end of the Third Age.
I have to disagree.
1. About “working together”. “Only one hand at a time can wield the One” said Gandalf to Saruman. So IF Gandalf wields the One he will be the Master and Galadriel (with her Nenia) will be his slave as well as Elrond with his ring. Or it can be the other way round if Galadriel had the ring. No partnership but a master-slave relationship.

2. Another thing is that both Gandalf and Galadriel believed that they COULD overthrow Sauron. They didn’t want to take his place, that’s all. But they definitely had the possibility. Even Aragorn had, otherwise Sauron would not panic so much after their palantir talk.

[Lenya]

By working together I didn't mean they would share the ring. But they would be very powerfull if they were allies, with one of them using the One.