Why did the Ring betray Isildur?

[Nurvingiel]

I was thinking about how Bilbo was the only person to willingly give up the Ring (admittedly with significant help from Gandalf), and started thinking about the various fates of other Ringbearers. This thread is also partly insipred by the question "Could the Ring be used for good?" in another thread.


A little backstory...

After the Ring was cut from Sauron's hand, Isildur was the first Ringbearer. I think various writings on Isildur indicate that though he was slowly being corrupted by the Ring, he retained some wisdom about the issue. He was seperated from the Ring when it slipped from his finger and Isildur was shot by orcs. The Ring drifted to the bottom of the Anduin to stay in obscurity for the next several hundred years. This we already know, but the important question is why did the Ring abandon Isildur?

Sauron was wandering as a bodiless spirit, and probably couldn't have reclaimed the Ring if it had been thrown through his face. It seems that the Ring wanted to bide its time until Sauron could take it back. Let's not forget that the Ring's goal was to return to its master and cover Middle-earth in a second darkness.


The sixty-thousand dollar question...

However, why not corrupt Isildur and wreak some havocy havoc in the meantime? Why waste a chance to do more evil? I think the Ring chose the safety of the river bed because it sensed the possibility of Isildur using it for good, or that, after lengthly exposure to Elrond's council, he would seek to destroy it. There's no way the Ring could have orchestrated being found by Bilbo, but perhaps he wanted to be found by Gollum or a similar person (easily corruptible). Isildur, unlike the black-hearted Sméagol, was not easily corrupted.

Thoughts?

[Valandil]

Maybe one possibility is just that Isildur had been connected to Sauron's Fall. The Ring may have hated him with Sauron's hatred, such that at the first opportunity to "escape" it would do so... ESPECIALLY if doing so would endanger Isildur.

[Nurvingiel]

Good point Valandil. In that case, the Ring seems to have a personality. Being overcome by hate to get revenge on its enemy... maybe that's part of being imbued with Sauron's malice.

Okay then, do you think it was tactically to the Ring's advantage to abandon Isildur at that point?

Maybe the Ring wanted to be found by the Orcs... except, it specifically chose the river to slip from Isildur's finger, which would make it the One Ring of stupidity if that was its goal.

[Valandil]

What kind of 'senses' might the Ring have to perceive its surroundings though? I think very limited - as far as those we're familiar with: seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting... but perhaps extraordinary in other ways: preceiving thoughts and emotions, etc.

It may not have known that it was in a river. It may not have known what a river really was. It may not have known the laws of physics at all.

Imagine yourself blind - maybe able to feel some things, perhaps to hear garbled sounds - but able to 'hear' thoughts and to know emotions and to have emotions in response. Trying to gather what you can of the world around you - but not always having the ability to do so correctly.

That's only a guess - I don't know if that's how Tolkien perceived the Ring, but it's plausible to me. I think it DID turn out to be a tactical error for the Ring to get itself lost for 2500 years (OTOH - Sauron was out of action for much of that time - and barely in action for almost all of it). However, it may not have known enough to take better action. Also - the 'unseen hand' may have been nudging the Ring, knowing what He could bring about in the next 3000 years if the Ring would abandon Isildur then (and not wishing for Isildur to become the next 'Dark Lord'). :)

[Nurvingiel]

Excellent point Val! Aw crap there's practically nothing left to discuss. I wanted a good discussion in this thread.

I think the Ring was at least very perceptive of people's thoughts, otherwise it wouldn't have been able to manipulate people so well. But you're right, it may not have known what a river was, even if it did hear Isildur's thoughts.

Isildur: I'll escape the orcs by swimming this river invisible!
Ring: I wonder what a river and swimming are? Oh well, screw you Isildur! *bails*

Maybe there are some discussion points left.

1. Do you think Isildur would have become the next Dark Lord? I think it's just as likely he would have destroyed the Ring.

2. Was it an unseen hand, or the unimagineable difficulty of swimming while invisible that aided the Ring? (Think about swimming... in the Anduin... whilst not being able to see your arms. Yeah.)

[Pytt]

1. I don't think he would have been able to destroy the ring. When Elrond, maybe the wisest person in ME,n at least present, urged Isildur to destroy it, but he didn't. Why should he, after weilding the ring for some time, want to do it later? I don't know if he would have been strong enough to be a new dark lord. Not at the same sice as Sauron atleast.

2. I think it was the hand. I don't know if the ring had something to do with it, or it was all the hand.

[Attalus]

I definitely think that the Hand was involved. It was around that time that Gandalf told Frodo that he thought that Bilbo was meant to find it, and not by its maker. I definitely think that there was some sentience in the Ring, but concieve it to exist (the sentient part, I mean) in the Wraith World, like the Nazgul, but without the aid of the black horses or other spies to aid it. It could sense, I think, that Isildur was in danger, no doubt about its being able to sense the syate of mind of its Bearer, and perhaps sense hostile (to Isildur) spirits or souls in the vicinity. As Val said, it probably had no concept of a river, those not exisiting in the Wraith world to my knowledge, so it thought:

"Bad, mean Bearer hurt Master.
Bad, mean Bearer in danger, he flee, something chase him.
He is using Me to foil, hide from them.
Therefore, if I leave him, they may catch him and kill him, rescue Me, and return me to Master." *hits the silk*

[Valandil]

Excellent point Val! Aw crap there's practically nothing left to discuss. I wanted a good discussion in this thread.

I think the Ring was at least very perceptive of people's thoughts, otherwise it wouldn't have been able to manipulate people so well...


Sorry. :o And I definitely agree about the perception of thought.

Actually - after I posted the last one, I had a thought which was one step further. The Ring of course was made by Sauron, and for over 1800 years, he had been its owner. Suddenly, Sauron is slain and the Ring is physically removed from him, as well as likely having the mental/emotional bond broken. What a shock that must have been to the Ring! :eek: Even if it did not inherit a hatred of Isildur from Sauron, it would likely hate him as the one who took it from its one true master.

EDIT: Cross-post... Attalus just said it so much better than I did! :p

[Wayfarer]

There once was a scorpion, which found itself on the edge of a gushing river, one that no scorpion could ever hope to cross. As it was pondering the situation a frog appeared, and with it, an idea. 'Frog', asked the scorpion, 'will you ferry me across these waters upon your back?' 'That would be madness,' answered the frog. 'You are a dangerous scorpion, and I a vulnerable frog. Why would I take such a risk?' 'No risk', assured the scorpion. 'If I sting you, I too will drown.' And so the frog agreed. Halfway across the river's width, the frog suddenly felt a spasm of pain. 'Why?' he cried out. 'Because,' the scorpion answered 'it is my nature to sting'. The ring betrayed Isildur because its nature was to betray.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The ring had some loyaty to Sauron, and may have feared that Isidur would, in time, have enough skill and power to control it, and wanted to ditch him before that happened.

[Maerbenn]

I believe this passage in ‘The Disaster of the Gladden Fields’ published in Unfinished Tales is relevant:They [the Orcs] halted briefly, preparing their assault. First they let fly a hail of arrows, and then suddenly with a great shout they did as Isildur would have done, and hurled a great mass of their chief warriors down the last slope against the Dúnedain, expecting to break up their shield-wall. But it stood firm. The arrows had been unavailing against the Númenórean armour. The great Men lowered above the tallest Orcs, and their swords and spears far outreached the weapons of their enemies. The onslaught faltered, broke, and retreated, leaving the defenders little harmed, unshaken, behind piles of fallen Orcs.

It seemed to Isildur that the enemy was withdrawing towards the Forest. He looked back. The red rim of the sun gleamed out from the clouds as it went down behind the mountains; night would soon be falling. He gave orders to resume the march at once, but to bend their course down towards the lower and flatter ground where the Orcs would have less advantage. Maybe he believed that after their costly repulse they would give way, though their scouts might follow him during the night and watch his camp. That was the manner of Orcs, who were most often dismayed when their prey could turn and bite.

But he was mistaken. There was not only cunning in the attack, but fierce and relentless hatred. The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dûr, sent out long before to watch the passes, and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron’s evil will and called to all his servants for their aid.

[Nurvingiel]

Yes, that is highly relevant Maerbenn :) And good point Attalus. Sorry I have not much of a reply to your posts. :D

The ring had some loyaty to Sauron, and may have feared that Isidur would, in time, have enough skill and power to control it, and wanted to ditch him before that happened.
If, as Wayfarer said, this is because it's the Ring's nature to betray (a distinct possibility) why did it "work" for Sam?

Simply wearing the Ring on a chain terrified the orc he met in the hallway at Cirith Ungol. That didn't really work for or against him though. At that point I think Sam would have slaughtered a single orc that stood between him and Frodo.

[Blackheart]

Bilbo wasn't the only person to give up the ring willingly. Sam returned it to Frodo after he (Frodo) made an ass of himself at Cirith Ungol...

As for the ring "sensing" it's surroundings, I don't know if that's even the right word. Certainly it has some ability to percieve, but it's highly likely that it is limited to some kind of dim perceptions on the spiritual "plane". In much the same way as the Nazgul were limited in their perceptions, perhaps.

Certainly the ring was highly attuned to that "plane", anyone without the strength to master it would eventually be consumed and made into a wraith just by wearing it.

My theory is that the ring can sense evil very readily. There is an active will behind the ring, but it isn't Saurons. It's Morgoth. The ring is tapped into the power he invested in the world, and on those occasions that it takes an action, I would say that he is a logical choice as the originator.

So when the orcs were near, the ring "called" to them, and slipped from it's bearer's hand. It may have indeed been coincidence that Isildur was swimming at the time.

[Nurvingiel]

I had forgotten about Sam ( :eek: ), and I meant to add him in my last post. However, in defence of Frodo, Sam only had to bear it for about a week or so. Of course it was difficult to give it up, but it was far worse for Frodo. He was dependent on the Ring by that point. He didn't make an ass of himself by freaking out.

I agree with what you guys have said about the Ring having perception similar to the Nazgul. :)

[Blackheart]

I had forgotten about Sam ( :eek: ), and I meant to add him in my last post. However, in defence of Frodo, Sam only had to bear it for about a week or so. Of course it was difficult to give it up, but it was far worse for Frodo. He was dependent on the Ring by that point. He didn't make an ass of himself by freaking out.

Did too! :p

In the movie you don't see any of that, but in the book he just takes off running and yelling whoopity doodah! Free! While poor Sam is trying to catch up.

If it had been ME I'd have beaned him in the head with a rock and told him to shut the hell up, one doesn't run around yelling things in Mordor when you're trying to be sneaky....

So I reiterate:

Did too! :p

[Nurvingiel]

Did not! :p

He would have been making an ass of himself if he had been in a market in The Shire, but I'd say he was perfectly entitled to some strange behaviour given that he had just been tortured and beaten by Orcs in the land of Mordor - a land of evil in which he had to destroy a powerful Ring that was slowly controlling his mind.

In sum, did not! :D

[Blackheart]

This was before the orcs captured him!

After they escaped from Shelob's Tunnel.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I had forgotten about Sam ( :eek: ), and I meant to add him in my last post. However, in defence of Frodo, Sam only had to bear it for about a week or so.
What about Bilbo. He bore it for about sixty years yet still gave it up out of free will. If Bilbo and Sam could, why couldn't Frodo? All were hobbits and Frodo has shown that he is resiliant by bearing a Morgul wound for how long he did. Could Frodo not give it up because he was bearing it drawing near to it's place of 'birth'?

[tolkienfan]

Wouldn't the Ring be working harder to corrupt Frodo? If Bilbo lets the Ring go, it falls on the floor. If Frodo lets the Ring go, it falls into Mount Doom.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But surely it would have been easier for the Ring to be borne by someone who has had it and used it near eighty years that someone who has only had it but not used it for twenty. Why not stay with Bilbo until you get to Mordor, then betray him?

[Blackheart]

Frode didn't succumb to the ring's influence until he was at the very heart of mount doom. The ring's power increased exponentially as it was brought closer to the place where it was forged.

At that point there probably wasn't anyone on middle earth who could have resisted the ring's influence. Except maybe Bombadil.

[Pytt]

You say maybe. Don't you think Bombadil could have resisted the ring inside Mt. Doom, or at the foot of it?

[Blackheart]

Probably at the foot of the mountain.

Inside at the forge, I'm not sure. From what I understand it would be like having the entire will of Morgoth directed into your brain...

[Olmer]

No, it’s all hearsay. The Ring did not betray Isildur.The situation was quite different .The great warrior was not trying to escape, jumping in the water, but in desperation sacrificed his life trying to HIDE the Ring using the best available at present situation source -the deep waters of Anduin.

Who can say with certainty that the Ring betrayed Isildur? Somebody, who stayed nearby. And since Elrond was so certain, it must be him, who saw the whole incident. Did he have a good reason to be there? Yes, an extremely good reason!

Let's look at broader picture.
Who would be not interested in Isildur's wielding of the Ring? Definitely, not Sauron, who at present time was licking his wounds. Besides it wouldn’t be bad , while recuperating, to get another King-nazgul at your service. But the Elves…
Should I tell you, or somebody else will make an educated deductions?
I’ll give a few clues. What about was the talk on the plateau of Gorgoroth ? And what the elves would lose with Isildur’s gaining of the Ring?

[Pytt]

Probably at the foot of the mountain.

Inside at the forge, I'm not sure. From what I understand it would be like having the entire will of Morgoth directed into your brain...

So the only one able to resist the ring inside is Eru, or could the Valar, Manwe for an example, also resist?

Interseting view Olmer, never thought about it that way.

[Attalus]

No, it’s all hearsay. The Ring did not betray Isildur.The situation was quite different .The great warrior was not trying to escape, jumping in the water, but in desperation sacrificed his life trying to HIDE the Ring using the best available at present situation source -the deep waters of Anduin.

Who can say with certainty that the Ring betrayed Isildur? Somebody, who stayed nearby. And since Elrond was so certain, it must be him, who saw the whole incident. Did he have a good reason to be there? Yes, an extremely good reason!

Let's look at broader picture.
Who would not be interested in Isildur's wielding of the Ring? Definitely, not Sauron, who at present time was licking his wounds. Besides it wouldn’t be bad , while recuperating, to get another King-nazgul at your service. But the Elves…
Should I tell you, or somebody else will make an educated deductions?
I’ll give a few clues. What about was the talk on the plateau of Gorgoroth ? And what the elves would lose with Isildur’s gaining of the Ring?Elrond wasn't nearby when the Ring betrayed Isildur. He was in Imladris at the time, nowhere near the Gladden Fields.

[Nurvingiel]

You say maybe. Don't you think Bombadil could have resisted the ring inside Mt. Doom, or at the foot of it?
Tom Bombadil, for some mysterious reason, would never leave his lands though. It would be impossible to answer this question because he would never go there.

Olmer your theories are creative at least. ;) Maybe you're thinking of the one guy who survived who brought the shards of Narsil to Imladris (name escapes me). He was a Man though.
How can you think Elrond was an evil conspirator? As Attalus pointed out, he wasn't there anyway. But this is Elrond we're talking about! One of the Wise, as kind as summer...

I think you could safely say that all Elves and all being of Middle-earth would lose if the Ring was not destroyed. That was the only way to guarantee Sauron would not regain it. That was Elrond's goal, not to gain it for himself. He didn't say, "Give it to me so I can destroy it," he said, "Destroy it Isildur."

[Olmer]

How can you think Elrond was an evil conspirator? As Attalus pointed out, he wasn't there anyway. ."
Right. He was not supposed to be there. Then why there is such conviction in his words that the Ring betrayed Isildur? Nobody can see him or perseive the Rings whereabout, unless you are wearing one of the Three. By the process of deduction we are coming out on Elrond, who insinuates that Isildur was betrayed by the Ring. But, sadly, the cause of his death was more sinister betrayal. Isildur signed his death warrant on the plateau of Gorgoroth refusing to give the Ring to the Elves.
That was Elrond's goal, not to gain it for himself. He didn't say, "Give it to me so I can destroy it," he said, "Destroy it Isildur."Oh... don't tell me the line from the movie. Read the book, and read carefully. I had a reason asking of what did Elrond, Cirdan and Isildur talk about on the plateau of Gorgoroth
Elrond could say anything to make this heroic warrior looking greedy and less noble, because no credible eyewitness left, save Elrond himself, but even in his careful built up story the truth slips out:Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan ( Silmarills)
And, if Estelmo was really telling the exact words of the King at the last minutes of his life, than the terrible truth is suddenly coming out:� My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three..� (UT)
Notice, he is not saying what should be done to the Ring, like “it should be destroyed�, he says who should HAVE it, which means that the arguments on the slopes of Orodruin was NOT about elimination of the Ring, but about WHO has more rights to keep it.

I think you could safely say that all Elves and all being of Middle-earth would lose if the Ring was not destroyed.
Since it was not destroyed, but gained a new master, who would be more vulnerable at the present situation?

[Beor]

its a slippery little ****er

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Right. He was not supposed to be there. Then why there is such conviction in his words that the Ring betrayed Isildur? Nobody can see him or perseive the Rings whereabout, unless you are wearing one of the Three. By the process of deduction we are coming out on Elrond, who insinuates that Isildur was betrayed by the Ring. But, sadly, the cause of his death was more sinister betrayal. Isildur signed his death warrant on the plateau of Gorgoroth refusing to give the Ring to the Elves.
Oh... don't tell me the line from the movie. Read the book, and read carefully. I had a reason asking of what did Elrond, Cirdan and Isildur talk about on the plateau of Gorgoroth
Elrond could say anything to make this heroic warrior looking greedy and less noble, because no credible eyewitness left, save Elrond himself, but even in his careful built up story the truth slips out:Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan ( Silmarills)
And, if Estelmo was really telling the exact words of the King at the last minutes of his life, than the terrible truth is suddenly coming out:� My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three..� (UT)
Notice, he is not saying what should be done to the Ring, like “it should be destroyed�, he says who should HAVE it, which means that the arguments on the slopes of Orodruin was NOT about elimination of the Ring, but about WHO has more rights to keep it.
I see where you are coming from but I seriously doubt it. Cirdan would definitly not wish for the Ring to survive and I'm pretty sure that Elrond wouldn't either. In Appendix A of LotR it says that Cirdan is wiser than all the other dwellers of ME and could see the furthest (foresight). Why would the wisest of ME wish for the Ring when it could be destroyed

[Pytt]

Tom Bombadil, for some mysterious reason, would never leave his lands though. It would be impossible to answer this question because he would never go there.


Yes. But in theory. I thought he could resist the Ring where ever he was, but Blackheart seems to think different.
So, it was only theoretic.

[Olmer]

I see where you are coming from but I seriously doubt it. Why would the wisest of ME wish for the Ring when it could be destroyed
I did not say they wanted the Ring to wield. Ask yourself a few questions about abilities of the ring and you can't help not to come to the answer:
the most important abilities of the Ring was DOMINATION and PRESERVATION.
Let's look at domination.
By refusing to surrender the Ring to the Mighty and Wise, Isildur put himself on the same level and even higher than his ex-allies, who felt that by their right as a Firstborn they have the priority on decision about the Ring. Besides, they were perfectly aware of the fact that eventually they will be subjected to Isildur’s will, and not in the other way around . Not knowing the true power of the Ring, he was not aware that he got a real hold on the mightiest of the Elves, but with time he definitely would come to such realization. Unfortunately too late, Isildur found out about the abilities of the owners of the other Rings of Power to see the carrier of the Ring, even if he is staying invisible.This explains why he did not stay on the battlefield and fight being invisible .After all , with gain of the Ring he saw the hidden Rings, and knew who is that mysterious Keepers of the Three: Cirdan, Elrond and , probably to his unexpected surprise, Galadriel , who was nursing an idea of enhancing her own authority: I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I might do should the Great Ring come into my hands. (FOTR)Certainly , such perspective of loosing their power could worry the Keepers, and I don’t believe that they didn’t do nothing to prevent such catastrophic outcome.

Why the Elves would be interested in preservation of the Ring?
The preservation of the Ring was moving an emigration to indefinite time and , while the Ring still exist, with their Rings they can stop the time and preserve things unchanged safely from Eru's wraith , putting the blame on Sauron's cunning devise.

[me9996]

Maybe it thought that the orcs would find it...

P.S.
Post 490!!!

[Nurvingiel]

Yes. But in theory. I thought he could resist the Ring where ever he was, but Blackheart seems to think different.
So, it was only theoretic.
Oh yes, sorry, I misunderstood your post. :)

Olmer, I don't think preservation was one of the One Ring's abilities, unless you mean self-preservation. :)

Galadriel was tempted by the Ring, but she did everything she could to aid Frodo in the Quest. In the end she resisted the temptation. Elrond, whether he was tempted by the Ring or not, also did everything he could to aid Frodo in the Quest. Actions speak louder than words, or thoughts.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with Nurv. During the Council both Elrond and Gandalf refused to wield or bear the Ring, as did Galadriel, albeit after being seriously tempted. They would have wished for Isildur to destroy it himself, not for them to destroy it. They knew what the Ring was capable of whereas Isildur didn't know the eextent of what could be done. The Ring would have exploited this in the elves.

[Gordis]

I had a reason asking of what did Elrond, Cirdan and Isildur talk about on the plateau of Gorgoroth
Elrond could say anything to make this heroic warrior looking greedy and less noble, because no credible eyewitness left, save Elrond himself, but even in his careful built up story the truth slips out:Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan ( Silmarills)
And, if Estelmo was really telling the exact words of the King at the last minutes of his life, than the terrible truth is suddenly coming out:� My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three..� (UT)
Notice, he is not saying what should be done to the Ring, like “it should be destroyed�, he says who should HAVE it, which means that the arguments on the slopes of Orodruin was NOT about elimination of the Ring, but about WHO has more rights to keep it.

It is very convincing, Olmer. I believe you are right that at the time of the Last Alliance the elves (the bearers of the three) wanted to keep the Ruling ring safe. No, not to wield it, but not to destroy it either. Because without the One the Three are just nice pieces of jewellery. By the time of the Last Alliance they have had their rings for about 2000 years, unable to put them on even once! They must have longed to wield them at last. Especially it concerns Galadriel. She has refused to return to Aman, she still wanted great realms of her own. And she must have already felt weariness and fading. She was much older than Elrond. He was a recent ringbearer and young still, so he might have suggested the Ring's destruction, but I don't believe Galadriel agreed. She needed to use her ring so very much. And in the third age her ring has permitted her to make a paradise on ME for herself and some of the elves. After the destruction of the ring, when the 3 elven rings lost their power, their wielders departed immediately.
During the Council both Elrond and Gandalf refused to wield or bear the Ring, as did Galadriel, albeit after being seriously tempted. They would have wished for Isildur to destroy it himself, not for them to destroy it. They knew what the Ring was capable of whereas Isildur didn't know the extent of what could be done. The Ring would have exploited this in the elves.
Yes, but the situation in TA 3018 was totally different from that in TA 0004. Galadreel still would have loved to keep the Ring buried deep under her mallorn tree, but she knew it was not possible anymore. Sauron bacame so strong that he would have got the Ring by force. Elrond said at the Counsil that the ring could not remain in Imladris, because his realm will not be able to withstand the assault of all Sauron's forces. So they had to destroy the ring at this time.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes, but the situation in TA 3018 was totally different from that in TA 0004. Galadreel still would have loved to keep the Ring buried deep under her mallorn tree, but she knew it was not possible anymore. Sauron bacame so strong that he would have got the Ring by force. Elrond said at the Counsil that the ring could not remain in Imladris, because his realm will not be able to withstand the assault of all Sauron's forces. So they had to destroy the ring at this time.
Galadriel had lived through the Wars of Beleriand and would not want to see the elves going though a similar thing to what happened then. I think Galadriel knew that the price of the Ring was to great just to ignore because she wanted her Ring.

[Gordis]

Galadriel had lived through the Wars of Beleriand and would not want to see the elves going though a similar thing to what happened then. I think Galadriel knew that the price of the Ring was to great just to ignore because she wanted her Ring.

Well, why then didn't the elves search for Isildur's body? If it was possible for Saruman to find Isildurs bones a couple of millenia since the event (see UT) it must have been easy to find it shortly after the disaster at Gladden. But they have not found it, so they have not searched for the Ring. If at this time the elves believed that it were VITAL to DESTROY the Ring they would have spent all their immortal lives diving at the Gladden. But they just left the Ring there, because they believed that it was well HIDDEN in the Anduin. Of course, they would have preferred it hidden in Imladris or in the Grey havens but they decided Anduin will do. And they started happily using the Three.

[Olmer]

...at the time of the Last Alliance the elves (the bearers of the three) wanted to keep the Ruling ring safe. No, not to wield it, but not to destroy it either. Because without the One the Three are just nice pieces of jewellery.
She has refused to return to Aman, she still wanted great realms of her own.
She was much older than Elrond. He was a recent ringbearer and young still, so he might have suggested the Ring's destruction, but I don't believe Galadriel agreed. She needed to use her ring so very much.

Yes, but the situation in TA 3018 was totally different from that in TA 0004. Galadreel still would have loved to keep the Ring buried deep under her mallorn tree, but she knew it was not possible anymore. Sauron bacame so strong that he would have got the Ring by force. Elrond said at the Counsil that the ring could not remain in Imladris, because his realm will not be able to withstand the assault of all Sauron's forces. So they had to destroy the ring at this time.
That right. For 60 years Gandalf tried to follow Galadriel's plan.Then safekeeping of the Ring became known to the Enemy and Galadriel had to agree on execution of the second plan.....and if MY designs had not gone amiss.. "(The Fellowhip of the Ring) But right from the beginning she secretly contemplated a different schemes of what to do with the Ring:to make it disappear. One of them had been sucsessfully executed on the Gladden Fields
For 2500 thousand years the ring has been safely "lost" .
In mean time Galadriel, a farseeing politician and charming, but cold and calculating intrigant, became the mightiest on the Middle earth, who could summon even such independent and powerful entities as Istari and talk to them on the same level. "I it was who first summoned the White Council“ (FOTR) She was even mightier than Sauron, because she came from generation of such elves as Fingolfin and Feanor, who were strong and confident enough to challenge even Morgoth himself, not to mention balrogs and dragons. Contrary to Sauron, who with lost of his ring was diminishing in his power, Galadriel, with new gaining abilities to wield the Nenya, became even stronger. She arrogantly admits that has no wish to go over Sea: “Here I am mightier" (UT) than if she would be anywhere else.
The second attempt to make the Ring to get lost, the ambush at Rauros, unfortunatelly went "belly up" because of Boromir. She totally lost control over the situation after the Ringbearers entered the vicinity of Mordor, and had to accept inevitable.

It is very convincing, Olmer.
Glad to find at least one person, who sees the picture far above the framed part. Welcome to the Moot!

[Gordis]

Glad to find at least one person, who sees the picture far above the framed part. Welcome to the Moot!
Thank you, Olmer, I really find your posts most interesting. But that does not mean that I agree with ALL your points. No, I don't! But I like your approach: to treat Tolkien sources as if it were historical evidence and try to explain the events using logic. Believe facts and not someone's words, even the words of oh so holy elves :D . And I agree that the ME history as it came to us is very Elf-centered.

The second attempt to make the Ring to get lost, the ambush at Rauros, unfortunatelly went "belly up" because of Boromir. She totally lost control over the situation after the Ringbearers entered the vicinity of Mordor, and had to accept inevitable.!
And what exactly do you hint at? That after she let Frodo depart from Lorien she has reconsidered and decided to get the ring after all?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well, why then didn't the elves search for Isildur's body? If it was possible for Saruman to find Isildurs bones a couple of millenia since the event (see UT) it must have been easy to find it shortly after the disaster at Gladden. But they have not found it, so they have not searched for the Ring. If at this time the elves believed that it were VITAL to DESTROY the Ring they would have spent all their immortal lives diving at the Gladden. But they just left the Ring there, because they believed that it was well HIDDEN in the Anduin. Of course, they would have preferred it hidden in Imladris or in the Grey havens but they decided Anduin will do. And they started happily using the Three.
They didn't search for it because they feared the Ring. The elves, if any upon ME, knew the true power of the Ring. If that Ring had fallen into the hands of a powerful elf ie, Elrond, Galadriel, then the problem they just got rid of could arise again. Also Lorien was behind as it staes in UT and Imladris far ahead. They manner of Isildurs death was probably not dead and I suspect the orcs made a burning or something similar to get rid of the bodies. It also states in UT that the orcs were afraid to attack Isildur who was wearing the Elendillmir so is Isildur had been killed on the battle field, then the orcs would have plundered his treasures.

[Valandil]

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Glad to find at least one person, who sees the picture far above the framed part. Welcome to the Moot!

Yes gordis, glad to have you here. Olmer is usually standing all alone with his perspective on things - and it's nice to see someone come around who agrees with at least some of what he espouses.

Olmer - I've begun work on a little more of my 'histories' - nothing really finished to show yet, some outlines and the beginning of a story - but I AM moving on it. :)

[Gordis]

As I told in my previous message, there are some Olmer's points that I can't accept.
And one of them is putting the blame of Isildur's death on Elrond.

First of all, do not forget where Isildur was going: to Imladris! If Elrond wanted Isildur dead, it would have been much easier to murder him there. But, though I am not too fond of Galadriel, still I have a high respect for Elrond. I don't think him capable of base treachery. What were Elrond's feelings at the time of the Disaster at Gladden? Elrond might have wished to keep the ring himself or to give it to Galadriel or Cirdan for keeping. He certainly understood the danger of leaving it in Isildur's hands, danger both to the bearers of the Three and to Isildur himself. He might have WISHED Isildur dead. But from that to actually murdering the man himself ...I don't imagine Elrond in this role.

Who can say with certainty that the Ring betrayed Isildur? Somebody, who stayed nearby. And since Elrond was so certain, it must be him, who saw the whole incident. .

In UT "The disaster of the Gladden Fields" there is a chapter "The sources of the legend..."
telling that there were eyewitnesses to the fight (Ochtar and his companion, Elendur's esquire, who heard the words of Isildur and Elendur at their parting and some late Woodmen rescuers). "The story of the last hours of Isildur and death was due to surmise: but well-founded. The legend in its full form was not composed until the reign of Elessar in the Fourth age, when other evidence was discovered. Up to then it had been known, firstly, that Isildur had the ring, secondly that his sword etc. had been found on the bank above the Gladden, thirdly that there have been orcs at the western bank armed with bows, and fourthly, that Isildur and the ring separately or together must have been lost in the river"

At the time of the counsel (Oct.3018) Elrond knew that the Ring had been found in the river but no traces of Isildur were found. So, he surmised that Isildur lost his ring in the water.
-Why "the ring has betrayed him"? - A surmise again, but quite plausible. Didn't it betray Gollum? And the ring must have hated Isildur.
So there are no reasons to believe Elrond to be a secret eyewitness to Isildur's death or even his murderer.

[Gordis]

Yes gordis, glad to have you here. Olmer is usually standing all alone with his perspective on things - and it's nice to see someone come around who agrees with at least some of what he espouses.

Thank you for your welcome! I like Olmer's approach of not taking things at face value. Though, I am afraid, Olmer will be disappointed by my last post

[Valandil]

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So there are no reasons to believe Elrond to be a secret eyewitness to Isildur's death or even his murderer.

I have speculated at times about the possibility that the bearers of the Three may have been somewhat aware of the actions of one who was wearing the One. At least - Celebrimbor became aware of Sauron as soon as he put the One on for the first time.

This doesn't seem to be borne out though, in Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo bearing or using the One. The keepers of the Three (one of whom was even Gandalf) don't seem aware of their actions. Of course - they were not Celebrimbor and had not made the Three - so maybe they were not even 'in tune with' what the Three were telling them of the One. Perhaps Elrond could have become aware of Isildur's plight though, because of the duress that Isildur was under - and maybe even because of his association with the man.

Anyway - that seems another good opportunity for a 'source' of what happened to Isildur, but Tolkien doesn't mention it.

And gordis - don't worry about Olmer. I don't think he'll mind that you're not in COMPLETE agreement with him. I imagine it's very cheering for him to have someone who even shares a part of his perspective on these matters. :)

Something you said earlier makes me wonder though... regardless of for what useage, why would the Elves NOT have searched extensively in that part of the Gladden for the One - it became apparent that Isildur had likely been lost there even in year 3 of Third Age - when he was a no-show at Rivendell. It's not the sort of thing I expect they would just want to leave lying around for whomever might find it.

I just see that as more of a 'gap' in Tolkien's history though - not so much an Elf-conspiracy. :) :p

[Gordis]

They didn't search for it because they feared the Ring. The elves, if any upon ME, knew the true power of the Ring. If that Ring had fallen into the hands of a powerful elf ie, Elrond, Galadriel, then the problem they just got rid of could arise again..
That may be a good point, as at that time nobody has heard of hobbits and their ring-proofness. But on the other hand Gil-Galad and Galadriel and Cirdan resisted the temptation to wear their rings (the Three) for about 2000 yours. They could have assumed that they would be able to resist the urge of wielding the One as well.
Also Lorien was behind as it staes in UT and Imladris far ahead..
I can't understand what you mean, sorry

They manner of Isildurs death was probably not dead and I suspect the orcs made a burning or something similar to get rid of the bodies. It also states in UT that the orcs were afraid to attack Isildur who was wearing the Elendillmir so is Isildur had been killed on the battle field, then the orcs would have plundered his treasures.

In my previous long message I quoted UT about the sources of the legend of Isildur's death.
And if the Elves had any reason to believe that ORCS had plundered Isildur's body, then they would have chased them to the far corners of ME, even going to war again to get the Ring. No, they had reasons to think that the Ring was in the river, and that suited them, more or less.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

That may be a good point, as at that time nobody has heard of hobbits and their ring-proofness. But on the other hand Gil-Galad and Galadriel and Cirdan resisted the temptation to wear their rings (the Three) for about 2000 yours. They could have assumed that they would be able to resist the urge of wielding the One as well.
But the power of the three was not in temptation and that was one of the One's main powers.

I can't understand what you mean, sorry
I mean that it would have taken them a long while to get to either, and Rivendell was the obvious choice because of their friendship and kinship with Elrond, but it took Ohtar a long while to reach Rivendell, they would have known that by then if the One was just lying around it would be found.


In my previous long message I quoted UT about the sources of the legend of Isildur's death.
And if the Elves had any reason to believe that ORCS had plundered Isildur's body, then they would have chased them to the far corners of ME, even going to war again to get the Ring. No, they had reasons to think that the Ring was in the river, and that suited them, more or less.
And how would they know where to look? Orcs were still numerous upon ME . It would be an impossible task.

[Gordis]

I have speculated at times about the possibility that the bearers of the Three may have been somewhat aware of the actions of one who was wearing the One. At least - Celebrimbor became aware of Sauron as soon as he put the One on for the first time.
This doesn't seem to be borne out though, in Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo bearing or using the One. The keepers of the Three (one of whom was even Gandalf) don't seem aware of their actions. Of course - they were not Celebrimbor and had not made the Three - so maybe they were not even 'in tune with' what the Three were telling them of the One. Perhaps Elrond could have become aware of Isildur's plight though, because of the duress that Isildur was under - and maybe even because of his association with the man. Anyway - that seems another good opportunity for a 'source' of what happened to Isildur, but Tolkien doesn't mention it.

A very good idea, Valandil! The three ring-bearers must have felt Isildur's fear and probably could see the incident itself like Galadriel in her mirror.
As for the Ring-detection issues in Hobbit and LOTR, I have typed a long answer, but I realize it has nothing to do with Isildur. Where may I post it?


Something you said earlier makes me wonder though... regardless of for what useage, why would the Elves NOT have searched extensively in that part of the Gladden for the One - it became apparent that Isildur had likely been lost there even in year 3 of Third Age - when he was a no-show at Rivendell. It's not the sort of thing I expect they would just want to leave lying around for whomever might find it. I just see that as more of a 'gap' in Tolkien's history though - not so much an Elf-conspiracy. .

I think, there are two possible approaches to Tolkien discussion. One is the LITERARY APPROACH when you look at LOTR, UT etc. as fiction books. Which they are, of course. The best examples of this approach are Christopher Tolkien's comments.
From this POV you are totally correct. Tolkien has never published the UT, so there are some loose ends. I think that when Tolkien wrote about Saruman's finding of Isildur's bones, he did not see the implication: that it proved that the elves had not looked in the river.
I have nothing against this approach, only I am not overmuch interested in it. Much more appealing to me is the HISTORICAL APPROACH. Here we try to treat LOTR and UT as historical sources. Tolkien himself loved to play the game. He had LOTR and The Hobbit published and was filling the gaps and finding explanations in his later writings. He was trying not to contradict published sources, but only to expand them. From this POV the above explanation of elves's inactivity does not apply. We have to assume that either the elves were very lazy or there was a conspiracy.

[Valandil]

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I have nothing against this approach, only I am not overmuch interested in it. Much more appealing to me is the HISTORICAL APPROACH. Here we try to treat LOTR and UT as historical sources. Tolkien himself loved to play the game. He had LOTR and The Hobbit published and was filling the gaps and finding explanations in his later writings. He was trying not to contradict published sources, but only to expand them. From this POV the above explanation of elves's inactivity does not apply. We have to assume that either the elves were very lazy or there was a conspiracy.

That's exactly the POV that Olmer takes! :p :D

[Gordis]

But the power of the three was not in temptation and that was one of the One's main powers.

I am not so sure. Why would Sauron make the One Ring more tempting than the others? He made it for himself only, so tempting others was not a desired quality of the Ring.
All the objects of power were a great temptation to everyone around (Silmarils, Nauglamir, Arkenston, the palantiri). I think ALL the rings of Power were a temptation, not only the One and the Nine. Train died in Dol Guldur forgetting everything exept the Ring he once posessed.

[Gordis]

That's exactly the POV that Olmer takes! :p :D
Well, so be it!

BTW, Valandil, I have posted my reply to your ring-detection question in the other tread, about the "Shadow of the past" chapter.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I am not so sure. Why would Sauron make the One Ring more tempting than the others? He made it for himself only, so tempting others was not a desired quality of the Ring.
All the objects of power were a great temptation to everyone around (Silmarils, Nauglamir, Arkenston, the palantiri). I think ALL the rings of Power were a temptation, not only the One and the Nine. Train died in Dol Guldur forgetting everything exept the Ring he once posessed.
But you didn't see elves fighting over the Three or the Dwarves over the seven or even Men over the Nine. I don't think it was the Nine that tempted the futre Nazgûl's anyway, IMO it was power that Sauron used to seduce them not the Rings. The Rings were just something that would increase their power. And that IMO is what the Ring was symbolic of, power and that's what it gave the bearer if they desired it. The three were used differently as were the seven. The three were Rings used for healing and the seven for treasures.

[Gordis]

But you didn't see elves fighting over the Three or the Dwarves over the seven or even Men over the Nine. I don't think it was the Nine that tempted the futre Nazgûl's anyway, IMO it was power that Sauron used to seduce them not the Rings. The Rings were just something that would increase their power. And that IMO is what the Ring was symbolic of, power and that's what it gave the bearer if they desired it. The three were used differently as were the seven. The three were Rings used for healing and the seven for treasures.

I still believe that all the rings were tempting the ones around to seize them and the bearers to wield them.

The three were less tempting than the One just because they were less powerful. I ask again why would Sauron make his very own precious Master ring tempting? It was not meant to ensnare any others. He never wished to part with it, he never expected to loose it. He just could not help it being tempting to others. And why would Feanor make the Silmarils or the Palantiri tempting? He could not help it either. And the bloodbath around the Silmarils was greater than that around the rings just because they were more powerful and therefore more tempting.

Yes, we have not seen Elves fight over the Three. But we have not seen Elves fight over the One either. They were able to resist the temptation, but it does not mean they were not tempted. They may have resisted the temptation of the Three. Galadriel kept Nenya invisible on her finger. Why? Who could have seen it but the elves of Lorien? And we can't be sure that nobody has ever tried to seize her ring. We know very little of the history of the rings, nothing about the early history of the Nine, nothing about the 6 out of the Seven.
And about the 9 Rings: surely Nazgul were tempted not by shiny thingies but by the power the rings contained. The same is true for the One: Boromir coveted not a nice-looking golden ring, but the Power he needed to defend Gondor. I see no difference in these cases.

[Olmer]

But that does not mean that I agree with ALL your points.
And I agree that the ME history as it came to us is very Elf-centered.
No need to agree. What makes a conversation interesting is an expression of different points of view.
I welcome disagreements, as long as they backed up by quotes from the books and not by the categorical words "Tolkien did not mean THAT!", because Tolkien did not know himself what did he mean by writing this or that.
But one thing should be definitely clarified : Tolkien DID mean to have his work as a history, which , as he felt, had been “imperfectly� “recorded� by him, as he was “translating� it from hobbit’s point of view.

And what exactly do you hint at? That after she let Frodo depart from Lorien she has reconsidered and decided to get the ring after all?
She has never reconsidered. Remember, her plan has been different from the White Council. Unfortunately, she got overrun by majorities, but she never gave up an idea. She simply did not have an opportunity.
And suddenly such chance just fell down on her lap! Gandalf , an appointed overseer of the quest, got out of the picture right in the time, when the Ring arrived in Lorien. And she is taking the reins in her hands, improvising on the run She wants to preserve the Ring, but at the same time she does not want to give Sauron a reason to suspect that the Ring is in Lorien’s safekeeping. . Her plan is elegant and deceitful. She detains the Fellowship for a whole month (and this is when the whole mission was relayed on secrecy and speed). In mean time the important information about the last bivouac of the Fellowship had been “slipped out� to the ears of enemies.
If it was possible for Saruman to find Isildurs bones a couple of millenia since the event (see UT) it must have been easy to find it shortly after the disaster at Gladden. But they have not found it, so they have not searched for the Ring. If at this time the elves believed that it were VITAL to DESTROY the Ring they would have spent all their immortal lives diving at the Gladden.
You have a very valid point over here. Never thought from this angle.
One more point to believe that something was not � kosher� in the whole business of Isildur’s death.
First of all, do not forget where Isildur was going: to Imladris! If Elrond wanted Isildur dead, it would have been much easier to murder him there. But, though I am not too fond of Galadriel, still I have a high respect for Elrond. I don't think him capable of base treachery.
If it would happen in Imladris, it would rise up a lot of questions. Besides, the Rings whereabouts would be easily pinpointed.
I really sympathize with Elrond, because his role in the elves-men struggle is not easy one. He is the most contradictive and tragic figure in ME. Less inclined to the power lust, he, probably, understood the danger of the Ring better, than so sure of her own resistance to it Galadriel, but being not 100% elf and just Gil-Galad’s herald, he was not the one who had the last word to say. After the death of Gil-Galad he became independent in his little realm, but Galadriel found the way to order him around. Interesting to note that no more than a hundred years later after the incident on the Gladden Fields he is taking for wife Celebrian, daughter of high and mighty Noldorin princess . For more than 1600 years his love had been unrequited, and all of the sudden such change of heart. What did he do for snobbish Galadriel to get such privilege?
In UT "The disaster of the Gladden Fields" there is a chapter "The sources of the legend..."
telling that there were eyewitnesses to the fight (Ochtar and his companion, Elendur's esquire, who heard the words of Isildur and Elendur at their parting and some late Woodmen rescuers). "The story of the last hours of Isildur and death was due to surmise: but well-founded. So there are no reasons to believe Elrond to be a secret eyewitness to Isildur's death or even his murderer
About the unfortunate role of Ohtar and Estelmo I already wrote somewhere here on the board almost an essay: too many things don’t add up in
theirs ordeals. I have reason to believe that they had been brought to Imladris and not by their own will.
But on the other hand Gil-Galad and Galadriel and Cirdan resisted the temptation to wear their rings (the Three) for about 2000 yours. They could have assumed that they would be able to resist the urge of wielding the One as well. And it will be a very well founded assumption, because Gandalf handled this ring TWICE without any ill effects for him.
I have speculated at times about the possibility that the bearers of the Three may have been somewhat aware of the actions of one who was wearing the One.
Interesting. And plausible. Even if they perceived through the Rings, they wouldn’t broadcast such source of information.
Nevertheless, if they were so much aware of Isildur’s strife it doesn’t explain theirs inactivity and unwillingness to help.

This doesn't seem to be borne out though, in Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo bearing or using the One. The keepers of the Three (one of whom was even Gandalf) don't seem aware of their actions
I think because the Ring for quite long time was cooling off, loosing power and potency

Valandil, I am glad that you decided on to “widen horizons� of yours “Letters� of Arthedain history. Coming as through the eyes of witness of the last days of Northern kingdom, it gives for the rise and fall of Arnor more dimensional view and more feeling . I think that Tolkien dedicated undeservingly little time for the history of the northern descendants of Numenorians. Based on Tolkien text, you are extending the information about such intriguing subject. I think some day it would be a very good source of information for some people, who wouldn’t be satisfied with just a couple of pages in the Appendix. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I still believe that all the rings were tempting the ones around to seize them and the bearers to wield them.

The three were less tempting than the One just because they were less powerful. I ask again why would Sauron make his very own precious Master ring tempting? It was not meant to ensnare any others. He never wished to part with it, he never expected to loose it. He just could not help it being tempting to others. And why would Feanor make the Silmarils or the Palantiri tempting? He could not help it either. And the bloodbath around the Silmarils was greater than that around the rings just because they were more powerful and therefore more tempting.

Yes, we have not seen Elves fight over the Three. But we have not seen Elves fight over the One either. They were able to resist the temptation, but it does not mean they were not tempted. They may have resisted the temptation of the Three. Galadriel kept Nenya invisible on her finger. Why? Who could have seen it but the elves of Lorien? And we can't be sure that nobody has ever tried to seize her ring. We know very little of the history of the rings, nothing about the early history of the Nine, nothing about the 6 out of the Seven.
And about the 9 Rings: surely Nazgul were tempted not by shiny thingies but by the power the rings contained. The same is true for the One: Boromir coveted not a nice-looking golden ring, but the Power he needed to defend Gondor. I see no difference in these cases.
I agree with you that the One was tempting because it was powerful, and that also was one of it's main powers. The three however, I do not thing were tempting. They did not have 'power' in the same sense that the One did. Their power was in healing and preserving. Yes they wer the most powerful of all the Rings wrought by the elves, but their power was not in wealth or war but in enrichingtheir dwellings, healing the hurts of the world and preservation.

But theywere not made as weapons of war or conquest: this is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strngth or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.
This is spoken by Elrond to Gloin at the Council of Elrond, explaining the power of the three. Also the three were hidden. Few knew who the bearers were. The elves didn't want the kinslayings to happen again. Elond and Galadriel at least knew the damage that they could bring, both had been present at least one (Galadriel all three) and ddin't want history to repeat itself with the Rings.

[Valandil]

I agree with you that the One was tempting because it was powerful, and that also was one of it's main powers. The three however, I do not thing were tempting. They did not have 'power' in the same sense that the One did. Their power was in healing and preserving. Yes they wer the most powerful of all the Rings wrought by the elves, but their power was not in wealth or war but in enrichingtheir dwellings, healing the hurts of the world and preservation.


This is spoken by Elrond to Gloin at the Council of Elrond, explaining the power of the three. Also the three were hidden. Few knew who the bearers were. The elves didn't want the kinslayings to happen again. Elond and Galadriel at least knew the damage that they could bring, both had been present at least one (Galadriel all three) and ddin't want history to repeat itself with the Rings.

You're contradicting yourself TD. I'd say the Three WERE possibly tempting, which is why they were hidden and the identity of their bearers was kept a secret.

I also think the Seven were probably tempting - the Dwarves jealously guarded the knowledge of who held them, such that None among them knew that Thror had given his to Thrain before he set off for Moria.

I can sure imagine that the Nine were tempting - and that their bearers perhaps had some challenges to their ownership in the days they were still somewhat human. However - their rings also made them powerful enough to win out - and likely twisted them into being plenty suspicious of those around them who might be interested in 'taking over' - in fact, they likely would have become somewhat paranoid and made sure to get rid of anyone who even gave them the slightest perceived hint that they might be a threat (and perhaps even opened their minds a bit to the wearer, such that he would know for sure if they DID intend to try something funny).

I think that all the Rings of Power would have been likely sources of temptation.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You're contradicting yourself TD.
Oops. Sorry.

I'd say the Three WERE possibly tempting, which is why they were hidden and the identity of their bearers was kept a secret.
That may not be the only reason they were kept secret. Sauron's spies were numerous, and the elves would have also been wary of betrayal. If Sauron knew that Elrond was the bearer of one of the Three and that the One would soo be arriving in Rivendell he'd make a pretty quick assault on Rivendell, similarly with Lorien.

I also think the Seven were probably tempting - the Dwarves jealously guarded the knowledge of who held them, such that None among them knew that Thror had given his to Thrain before he set off for Moria.
But the Seven gave wealth to the bearer. IMO the wealt the seven gave would not just pass to the bearer but its power would make the kingdom wealthier and the kingdoms people wealthier aswell as just the bearer.

I can sure imagine that the Nine were tempting - and that their bearers perhaps had some challenges to their ownership in the days they were still somewhat human. However - their rings also made them powerful enough to win out - and likely twisted them into being plenty suspicious of those around them who might be interested in 'taking over' - in fact, they likely would have become somewhat paranoid and made sure to get rid of anyone who even gave them the slightest perceived hint that they might be a threat (and perhaps even opened their minds a bit to the wearer, such that he would know for sure if they DID intend to try something funny).
Well what the powers of the Nine? Do we know? If not then we can not say for definite that they were or weren't tempting.

I think that all the Rings of Power would have been likely sources of temptation.
But to different people. I can't imagine Boromir chasing after one of the Three which preserved the land, or an elf chasing after one of the seven.

[Gordis]

But theywere not made as weapons of war or conquest: this is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strngth or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.

This is spoken by Elrond to Gloin at the Council of Elrond, explaining the power of the three.


I am afraid Elrond was too tight-lipped when speaking at the Counsil (and understandably so). He did cause the flood at the Ford, with the help of Gandalf. That was clearly Ring-magic. Galadriel warded off attacks from Dol Guldur. And Gandalf fought the 9 nazgul at Weathertop (with lightning) and he killed the Barlog. Perhaps the rings were more defensive than offensive weapons, but weapons they were. The three (Nenya in particular) also enabled the bearer to make palantiri-like devices (the Mirror of Galadriel), to forsee the future to some extent and to "kindle hearts" (Narya). ANYONE would be tempted to have these abilities. But you are right, the main power of the Three was "to preserve all things unstained", to slow the time, to prevent Elves's fading These powers were extremely tempting specifically for Elves. Men or Dwarves or orcs were not concerned with these problems. Though for a man possessing one of the Three meant immortality, and perhaps one not resulting in wraithdom. Not tempting eh ;) ?

[Gordis]

I really sympathize with Elrond, because his role in the elves-men struggle is not easy one. He is the most contradictive and tragic figure in ME. Less inclined to the power lust, he, probably, understood the danger of the Ring better, than so sure of her own resistance to it Galadriel, but being not 100% elf and just Gil-Galad’s herald, he was not the one who had the last word to say. After the death of Gil-Galad he became independent in his little realm, but Galadriel found the way to order him around. Interesting to note that no more than a hundred years later he is taking for wife Celebrian, daughter of high and mighty Noldorin princess . For more than 1600 years his love had been unrequited, and all of the sudden such change of heart. What did he do for snobbish Galadriel to get such privilege? .
Elrond-Celebrian match was hardly a misalliance. Elrond was Lord of Imladris from SA 1700. In TA he had Vilya. True, he was not 100% elf, but he was a descendent of Melian the Maia, Galadriel's former Queen, as well as Earendil and Elwing. I should say he was eligible for any elf-maid (should I say "she-elf"? :D ). Yes, Elrond waited very long before proposing to Celebrian, but Elves do not beget children and so probably do not marry in troubled times, so no wonder they had to wait till Sauron's defeat. And Elrond married Celebrian 107 years after Isildur's death, not next year, so the two events do not seem connected.
Gandalf handled this ring TWICE without any ill effects for him. .
Gandalf actually had the Ring in his keeping for 76 years! I think he knew (or strongly suspected) what it was. He kept it hidden in a hobbit hole in the Shire but was able to get it for himself anytime, practically unhindered. I think by 3018 he felt sorely tempted by the Ring (Do not tempt me, Frodo!). I am not so sure that the Ring had no ill effects on him. As well as Bilbo before him, Gandalf LIED about the ring (withheld information at least). Perhaps it was the influence of the Ring that prevented him to tell about it to his colleagues from the White Counsil, not only Saruman, but the others as well. Normally he should have told at least Elrond and Galadriel (whom he said he trusted) about a strange unidentified ring loose in the word, but he didn't. Otherwise the ring would have been taken to Rivendell years ago (just in case it was the One). Surely in the summer 3018 when the 9 nazgul passed by Lorien asking everyone about the Shire Galadriel would have reacted immediately.
She has never reconsidered... .

Here I am not convinced, but I have to think and to check things before replying.

For now I want to establish the list of the charges against Galadriel that you have put forward. They are scattered in various treads, so please check and tell me if I've missed (or misinterpreted) anything.

Case: Olmer against Galadriel:

1. At the time of Isildur's death, Galadriel wanted to KEEP the ring herself without wielding it, in order to be able to use Nenya. Therefore she ordered Elrond to kill Isildur and bring her the Ring
2. In TA 3018 she still wanted to keep the One Ring, but wanted to get it without anyone noticing, especially to keep it secret from Elrond, the Fellowship, Sauron and Saruman.
3. At the time of the War of the Rings Galadriel was the most interested person in all the ME to keep the One Ring safe (except Sauron himself). With Nenya she has accomplished more than anybody else and with the destruction of the One all will be lost.
4. She was ready to sacrifice all of Gondor to Mordor to acheive her ends. She probably presumed that after the war with Gondor, Mordor would be weakened and would not attack Lorien for some time.
5. In the second half of the TA Lorien provided food for Moria orcs in exchange for gems and mithril.
6. Galadriel let all the orcs (200+) pursuing the fellowship pass through Lorien.
7. Galadriel detained the Fellowship for a whole month (and this is when the whole mission was relayed on secrecy and speed).
8. Galadriel “slipped out� the information about the last bivouac of the Fellowship to the ears of enemies: Sauron and Saruman (?)
9. Galadriel sent a secret company of Lorien Elves to get the Ring from Frodo at Part Galen

As far as I understand, the events at Part Galen seem staged to you because:

1. Three different companies of orcs converged at the same spot.
2.The number of Moria orcs is the same before Lorien and in Rohan (200)
3. Sauron sent 40 orcs while Saruman sent 80.
4 The nazgul remained on the other shore of the Anduin and never intervened in the fight

Is that right, Olmer?

[me9996]

The ring ment to be found so it sliped from Isildors grasp, thus killing him.

[Nurvingiel]

Wow Gordis and Olmer, you guys put way more thought into this than I did. :o

But I disagree with a few of your points Gordis. Even though Gandalf suspected that Bilbo had a Ring of power and knew where it was, the Ring wasn't in Gandalf's keeping. Further, he only confirmed it was the One Ring when Frodo had it.

Also, Gandalf never actually touched the Ring, not even one time. He was always handling it with fire tongs or whatever, on the rare occasions he even looked at the Ring. I get the impression he avoided it and possible temptation as much as possible after he knew it was the One ring. (Before that, I don't think he would have an issue with its presence, since he bore a ring of power already.)

I agree that Elrond and Celebrian wasn't a mis-alliance. Another reasons for waiting so long to marry, is Elves stay engaged for quite a long time IIRC.

Olmer, unless there's something in UT or HoME, I don't think there is any canonical evidence for snobbery on Galadriel's part (though you're not the only fan with that impression). Further... Galadriel sent a company of Elves to get the Ring at Parth Galen? What the hey? :confused:

[Olmer]

Also, Gandalf never actually touched the Ring, not even one time. He was always handling it with fire tongs or whatever, on the rare occasions he even looked at the Ring.
I think, Nurvingiel, it’s time to re-read the book. ;)


The three were less tempting than the One just because they were less powerful. I ask again why would Sauron make his very own precious Master ring tempting? It was not meant to ensnare any others. He never wished to part with it, he never expected to loose it.
How do you know what he wished and what not? We know for sure that his biggest wish was to�destroy the Elves, and to compass, if he might, the downfall of Numenor. " (Sil.) , and the Ring precisely MENT to ensnare others. I think that the astounding abilities of the Ring was greatly exaggerated by Sauron himself to make it look more desirable, othervise how you explain the spell that everyone wants to own the "jewelry" , so the rightful owner, instead, would be destined to stay in the shadow?
Originally he made this ring not for his own use . If it supposed to save his soul, why he made it VISIBLE and DESIRABLE for someone else? And what practical purpouse in putting on the ring inscription in Feanorian Tengwar, the language of Noldor, which would look familiar or appealing to the High Elves only, and which promised (in a poem! What a guy!!!) a neverending dominion over others? Guess, who also wanted its own realm to"rule them all" ? �… He endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorns with outward patience and courtesy� (UT) ( Could it be that this old goat decided on life-timless commitment, but got turned down?)

Besides, he was not that upset about not having the Ring: "He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done" (FOTR,BookI, Chapter 2).So, he EXPECTED to loose it.
But to different people. I can't imagine Boromir chasing after one of the Three which preserved the land, or an elf chasing after one of the seven.
You have your point here!! All rings were affecting different persons in different way.
Elrond was Lord of Imladris from SA 1700. True, he was not 100% elf, but he was a descendent of Melian the Maia, ..
Yes, Elrond waited very long before proposing to Celebrian, but Elves do not beget children and so probably do not marry in troubled times,..
And Elrond married Celebrian 107 years after Isildur's death, not next year, so the two events do not seem connected.

Elrond, in spite of his great lineage, has never been called a“lord�, at best he was “Master Elrond�. I’m not talking about pure-blood Noldor , but even among Mirkwood elves he and his sons have never been considered as Elves :�…they are fair and gallant AS Elven-lords…�, commented Legolas, which means “even if they look like elves and behave like elves, they are not The Elves�.Another thing is that according to the law and customs of Eldar, “the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents of either party�. So for 1600 years he was awaited when Galadriel decided that time has come, while she was dragging her daughter back and forth across Eregion and through the Mountains, and even venturing to Belfalas. Seems to me she was not too much bothered by the “troubled times�. Then what was holding her to give her daughter away and to get for her a permanent home under protection of loving and caring husband? Could it be because Elrond was not exactly a desirable suitor?
But she did not want him to get off the hook, she and Celebrian were making visits in Imladris under different pretenses.
Galadriel was usung her daughter, as they using carrot hanging in front donkey, making him, in desire to get it, to outstretch himself.
Finally the time has come when the great warrior was put to face the options.
He won the hand of Celebrian, paying dearly with his pride and honor. 100 years later ( which is like a one week to compare with 1,5 thousands years) he married her. And on the next morning he woke up as Lord Elrond.

Gandalf LIED about the ring (withheld information at least). Perhaps it was the influence of the Ring that prevented him to tell about it to his colleagues from the White Counsil, not only Saruman, but the others as well.
My sentiments exactly the same

1. At the time of Isildur's death, Galadriel wanted to KEEP the ring herself without wielding it, in order to be able to use Nenya. Therefore she ordered Elrond to kill Isildur and bring her the Ring
2. In TA 3018 she still wanted to keep the One Ring, but wanted to get it without anyone noticing, especially to keep it secret from Elrond, the Fellowship, Sauron and Saruman.
3. At the time of the War of the Rings Galadriel was the most interested person in all the ME to keep the One Ring safe (except Sauron himself). With Nenya she has accomplished more than anybody else and with the destruction of the One all will be lost.
4. She was ready to sacrifice all of Gondor to Mordor to acheive her ends. She probably presumed that after the war with Gondor, Mordor would be weakened and would not attack Lorien for some time.
5. In the second half of the TA Lorien provided food for Moria orcs in exchange for gems and mithril.
6. Galadriel let all the orcs (200+) pursuing the fellowship pass through Lorien.
7. Galadriel detained the Fellowship for a whole month (and this is when the whole mission was relayed on secrecy and speed).
8. Galadriel “slipped out� the information about the last bivouac of the Fellowship to the ears of enemies: Sauron and Saruman (?)
9. Galadriel sent a secret company of Lorien Elves to get the Ring from Frodo at Part Galen

Is that right, Olmer?
Whoa! Hold your horses! :D
Galadriel was not the one who conspired all deceitful things. Many moves was made with knowledge and approval of the elven part of the White Council. She was an originator of ideas and pusher of her policies, but you can’t put a blame only on her. All elves shared her point of view .
1.I don’t think it was an order to kill, but it was the order to orchestrate an ambush and to oversee that the ring would get lost.
4 This is why Sruman was allowed to build his own army. In the case of winning, Mordor would face a new challenger, forgetting about the elves.
5 .She was very familiar with Moria’s surrounding, not once travelled through it and was quite familiar with its dwellers, besides ,the changes, which had happened in Moria , was lengthy. As a ruler she had to think in the first place about the interest of her country, and this is peace, dividends from any outside contacts and , in case of military conflicts, all attempts had to be made not to use its own people. And I don’t believe that she didn’t use any tactical move in her sleeve to insure that the bordering country would be at very least neutral to them. To give her a credit, Moria never went against Lorien.
6. It was 100+ orcs.
8 She personally did not do it, but seems, orders had been made.
9. I never said it, but, yes, it must be the few lorien’s archers to instigate the fight between orcs and to make sure that the ring with the Ringbearer got “lost� in the river again.

The reast is more or less close to what I am trying to tell here . :cool:

[Gordis]

But I disagree with a few of your points Gordis. Even though Gandalf suspected that Bilbo had a Ring of power and knew where it was, the Ring wasn't in Gandalf's keeping. Further, he only confirmed it was the One Ring when Frodo had it. .
It is just a definition of "keeping", nothing to argue about, IMHO. I only wanted to point out that Gandalf was able to take it anytime. My main point was that apparently he has not told about the Ring to anyone in the Counsil. It was his DUTY to report the existence of unidentified ring, but he withheld the information.

I get the impression he avoided it and possible temptation as much as possible after he knew it was the One ring. (Before that, I don't think he would have an issue with its presence, since he bore a ring of power already.) .
Narya should have enabled him to feel the power of Bilbo's ring. And Gandalf was most careful with the unidentified ring from the onstart. He immediately guessed it might be the One, just was not sure. Just think, he has not tried to test it in the most obvious way.

I imagine a missing scene from "the Hobbit":

Somewhere in Misty mountains, TA 2941
Gandalf: -Bilbo, give me that ring for a moment...(Puts the ring on). -Let us see if it can kindle that fire (spark and flames)... -Hmm, how about breaking that rock? (Boom!) -Most interesting! How about contacting someone? (Ring-ring)-Hello, Galadriel, darling! How are you? And Celeborn? And grandchildren? - Eh? No, I call not with Narya, with some other ring I have picked up. I am just testing it. (Giving her a mental order: Sneeze 3 times) Galadriel: sneezes three times. Gandalf: -Oh! it must be the One! How fortunate I stopped before ordering a nazgul to sing "O Elbereth Gilthoniel..."!
:D :D

[Gordis]

But to different people. I can't imagine Boromir chasing after one of the Three which preserved the land, or an elf chasing after one of the seven.

The Three were able to give Men immortality. A person like Ar-Pharazon surely would have chased after one of the Three. And I am not so sure that an Elf would not be tempted by one of the 7 or the 9. Originally, according to Celebrimbor's design, ALL the 19 rings were made for Elves. The idea to give 7 to Dwarves and 9 to Men was Sauron's. Do not forget that the Ring-verse was in fact Sauron's evil spell to pervert the original design.

[Gordis]

How do you know what he wished and what not? We know for sure that his biggest wish was to�destroy the Elves, and to compass, if he might, the downfall of Numenor. " (Sil.) , and the Ring precisely MENT to ensnare others. I think that the astounding abilities of the Ring was greatly exaggerated by Sauron himself to make it look more desirable, othervise how you explain the spell that everyone wants to own the "jewelry" , so the rightful owner, instead, would be destined to stay in the shadow?
Originally he made this ring not for his own use . If it supposed to save his soul, why he made it VISIBLE and DESIRABLE for someone else? And what practical purpouse in putting on the ring inscription in Feanorian Tengwar, the language of Noldor, which would look familiar or appealing to the High Elves only, and which promised (in a poem! What a guy!!!) a neverending dominion over others? Guess, who also wanted its own realm to"rule them all" ? � .

Not convincing, sorry.

I think you contradict yourself. If you question the ability of the One ring to control others (at least the Three) then all your construction about Galadriel's plans falls to pieces. If you accept that the One controls the others, than it means that the One Ring is practicaly canon. I agree, in itself it might be not so formidable as was supposed. I mean if all the 19 were destroyed the One would be reduced to very little.

"to destroy the Elves" IMHO means to make them use their Rings, build realms etc. and then corrupt them through the Rings and make the Elf-Lords his pawns and their realms his own. Actually, he had the same plan for all the rings, but it worked only with the 9 (and IMO not entirely either). But it would have worked if the bearers of the Three wielded their rings throughout the Second age. I think he also meant to achieve the downfall of Numenor much earlier by giving 3 of the Nine to the "great Numenorean Lords". He surely wanted to put a nazgul on the throne of Numenor itself. But he failed in this somehow, so he had to wait for 1000 years more till the time of not-so-bright Ar-Pharazon.

-If Sauron has made the ring not for his own use why had he GOT HIMSELF KILLED to pass it to others? With his cunning, he could have slipped the ring to them without damage to himself.

-Why he made it DESIRABLE? - IMHO Sauron could not help it, it was an intrinsic quality of all the things of Power
-VISIBLE? - All the rings are visible when not on someone's finger. Otherwise how can we know that all the rings save The one have stones? How could invisible rings be crafted at all? And, IMHO, when worn, the rings may be visible or invisible according to the wielder's wishes.
-The Ring inscription was in Black speech, only in elven runes. And it was invisible.

Besides, he was not that upset about not having the Ring: "He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done" (FOTR,BookI, Chapter 2).So, he EXPECTED to loose it. .
It was Elrond's surmise (not even Tolkien's surmise). Even Elrond can make mistakes. I believe the idea that anyone would destroy the Ring has NEVER entered Sauron's mind. Otherwise he could have guessed the goal of the Fellowship and easily prevented it.

… He endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorns with outward patience and courtesy� (UT) ( Could it be that this old goat decided on life-timless commitment, but got turned down?) .
:eek: And The One was the wedding Ring he prepared for her? And afterwards tried to slip it to her no matter what?
Olmer, Galadriel, as you depict her, would have been a perfect match for Sauron. They would have taken over the world and lived happily ever after :D .
Elrond, in spite of his great lineage, has never been called a“lord�, at best he was “Master Elrond�. I’m not talking about pure-blood Noldor , but even among Mirkwood elves he and his sons have never been considered as Elves :�…they are fair and gallant AS Elven-lords…�, commented Legolas, which means “even if they look like elves and behave like elves, they are not The Elves�.Another thing is that according to the law and customs of Eldar, “the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents of either party�. So for 1600 years he was awaited when Galadriel decided that time has come, while she was dragging her daughter back and forth across Eregion and through the Mountains, and even venturing to Belfalas. Seems to me she was not too much bothered by the “troubled times�. Then what was holding her to give her daughter away and to get for her a permanent home under protection of loving and caring husband? Could it be because Elrond was not exactly a desirable suitor? .
- In late TA Erlond was called both "Lord" and "Master". There is no proof that he was not called "Lord" in the SA.
..."As Elven lords..." IMHO the keyword here is "Lords", probably meaning the Elves from Valinor. Glorfindel is called Elf-Lord, though he has never had a realm of his own in ME. The Sons of Elrond were born in ME, so they are not Elf-Lords in this sence. And they are not lords of any realms (yet) though heirs to one. The same applies to Legolas, son of King Tranduil.
-It is written in UT that at about the middle of the SA "Elrond first saw Celebrian and loved her, though he said nothing of it" So it is not correct that he has awaited Galadriel's permission for half an age.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I am afraid Elrond was too tight-lipped when speaking at the Counsil (and understandably so). He did cause the flood at the Ford, with the help of Gandalf. That was clearly Ring-magic. Galadriel warded off attacks from Dol Guldur. And Gandalf fought the 9 nazgul at Weathertop (with lightning) and he killed the Barlog. Perhaps the rings were more defensive than offensive weapons, but weapons they were. The three (Nenya in particular) also enabled the bearer to make palantiri-like devices (the Mirror of Galadriel), to forsee the future to some extent and to "kindle hearts" (Narya). ANYONE would be tempted to have these abilities. But you are right, the main power of the Three was "to preserve all things unstained", to slow the time, to prevent Elves's fading These powers were extremely tempting specifically for Elves. Men or Dwarves or orcs were not concerned with these problems. Though for a man possessing one of the Three meant immortality, and perhaps one not resulting in wraithdom. Not tempting eh ;) ?
And where does it state that these acts (Lightning of Weathertop and Flood of the Brunien) was acts of the Rings. Narya was a Ring of Fire, not lightning so it wouldn't be used for that. Vilya was a Ring of Air and not of water. I don't see how these are connected to the Rings. Gandalf was a Maia remember, he didn't need the Ring to 'conjure' lightning.

The three would not give men immortality, such as te elves have. Somewhere (I'm not sure where but I'll try to find the quote) it says that not even the Valar have the power to give men immortality. It may (and probably would) make them wraiths. Remember the Ring was made for one of those powers and would eat away at the bearer if it was not of that power. Gollum was eaten away at, and the Nine became wraiths, as Frodo would have become if he claimed the Ring earlier and constantly wore it, it would diminish him. The elven Rings were the most powerful and men would nbot be able to bear them and lead a life to the same of further extent to what they or elves would have.

[Gordis]

And where does it state that these acts (Lightning of Weathertop and Flood of the Brunien) was acts of the Rings. Narya was a Ring of Fire, not lightning so it wouldn't be used for that. Vilya was a Ring of Air and not of water. I don't see how these are connected to the Rings. Gandalf was a Maia remember, he didn't need the Ring to 'conjure' lightning.
The three would not give men immortality, such as te elves have.

I think it were rather obvious that the flood at the ford was made with Vilia and Narya. Do you think that Elrond's ring was good for air-conditioning only :rolleyes:? .

And no man were able to predict beforehand what type of immortality would he get. They wanted it anyway.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gandalf's exact words about the flood were 'Elrond commanded it', not Elrond made it happen with his Ring. I think this suggests that he has he same kind of power with Rivedell as Bombadil did with the Old Forest, just nt to the same extent.

[Nurvingiel]

I agree with Telcontar here. I think the uses of the Three were more subtle than calling lightning down from the sky. I think it would be more along the lines of enhancing the abilities of the bearer. Maybe Vilya had a hand in the flood at Bruinen, but only to add to what Elrond could already do. That's my opinion anyway.
Further, there's nothing to indicate that the Three granted immortality. All their different bearers (CÃ*rdan, Gil-Galad, Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel) were already immortal.
Also I don't think many Men even knew about the Three. Galadriel's ring was a surprise to Frodo, and he only noticed it because he was a Ringbearer himself. Sam couldn't see it, and I don't think the rest of the Fellowship was aware of it, barring Gandalf, and maybe Aragorn (who was uncommonly knowledgeable you must admit).

EDIT:
I think, Nurvingiel, it’s time to re-read the book. ;)
Though I agree that a re-read is in order, I don't think I'm remembering this incorrectly. I'm going to have to see a quote about Gandalf actually handling the Ring (not just picking it up with fire tongs or the like) to be convinced. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree Nurvi (slightly obvious as you were agreeing with me but anyway). I think that he Dunedain would have known about the Three but there is nthing to indicate that Boromir did before th Council. It is strange however that Gloin knew about the three.

[Olmer]

It was his DUTY to report the existence of unidentified ring, but he withheld the information.
Agree. But since at the Council they already had a disagreement of what to do with The Ring. And it was obvious that…�There was much talk of rings at the Council: even wizards have much to learn ...� suggesting that, besides elves, there were another wizards at the council (including Saruman) who would "go in for such things� (HOME.Treason of Isengard� The 4th phase), Gandalf was too leery to make a public announcement.
How fortunate I stopped before ordering a nazgul to sing "O Elbereth Gilthoniel..."!
:D :D Love it!!! Brilliant!
ALL the 19 rings were made for Elves. The idea to give 7 to Dwarves and 9 to Men was Sauron's. Do not forget that the Ring-verse was in fact Sauron's evil spell to pervert the original design.
Yes, it was not Sauron’s plan to play God and to make devises which could deter God’s original design of nature, but he liked the idea and seized an opportunity to demonstrate to Eru, how ungrateful and imperfect his creations are.
If he would know, that with 19 rings wielding, the elve’s would fall out of Eru’s favor faster than Nunenorians, he would just sat back and enjoyed the show.

I think you contradict yourself. If you question the ability of the One ring to control others (at least the Three) then all your construction about Galadriel's plans falls to pieces. If you accept that the One controls the others, than it means that the One Ring is practicaly canon.
Not at all. To control the others was the most attractive feature for a perspective holder. But it had one catch: while wielding it your life-force will be slowly seeping to the original designer, making him stronger. Kind like nuclear generator-transmitter. :cool: Smart Galadriel guessed about such possibility. Gandalf also knew that the ring could turn him (without much harm) into the mighty Lord of Middle-earth by channeling the whatever left magic to him, but on another hand it could channel the magic from him too. This is why he preferred to handle The Ring as less, as possible. One can never be sure with these Rings of Power... ;)
If Sauron has made the ring not for his own use why had he GOT HIMSELF KILLED to pass it to others? He would live, if he would not “give a finger� to the standing nearby guy with Narsil. :p
It was Elrond's surmise (not even Tolkien's surmise). Even Elrond can make mistakes. I believe the idea that anyone would destroy the Ring has NEVER entered Sauron's mind. Whoever. If they thought that Sauron could be able to sit happily and believe that the ring was destroyed, then all their screams about the destruction of the Ring, as a panacea from Sauron’s dominion, were false.
And afterwards tried to slip it to her no matter what?
What you can do about it! :rolleyes: He was a persistent guy… Couldn’t take NO for answer!… :cool:
The three would not give men immortality, such as te elves have
But they would give PRESERVANCE , which is almost the same, a very desirable quality.
I'm going to have to see a quote about Gandalf actually handling the Ring (not just picking it up with fire tongs or the like) to be convinced.Just to save your time…
“ He (Frodo) unfastened it and handed it slowly to the wizard…Gandalf HELD IT UP…(then, after throwing it into the fire) …�he stooped and removed the ring to the hearth with the tongs, and at once PICKED IT UP. …’It is quite cool’, said Gandalf.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But they would give PRESERVANCE , which is almost the same, a very desirable quality.
Preservance to the land of their realm, not to themselves. That was Vilya's and Nenya's powers, but we don't see much evidence for that from Nenya as Gandalf did not have a realm or a dwelling place. Cirdan tells Gandalf that the Ring would help him create a fire in the heart's of others.
Do you think that Narya preserved Mithlond while Cirdan bore it there?

[Gordis]

Not at all. To control the others was the most attractive feature for a perspective holder. But it had one catch: while wielding it your life-force will be slowly seeping to the original designer, making him stronger. Kind like nuclear generator-transmitter. :cool:

So you agree that the One could control the others. As for your power-transmitter idea, I can easily accept it along with "control", BUT with one important difference: I think the ONE could seep the "magic energy" from the other rings and transmit it NOT to the ringless Sauron, but to the WIELDER of the One. So Sauron needed his ring vitally. When not wielded, the One might just accumulate energy without transmitting it. Therefore it was so draining to keep the One close.

[Olmer]

Preservance to the land of their realm, not to themselves. Do you think that Narya preserved Mithlond while Cirdan bore it there?
Tolkien himself said that the Rings maintained "enchanted enclaves of place when time seems to stand still and decay is restrained" (let.131).
How you can get old if the time is not moving and decay, the major factor of body's aging, is absent?

Was Mithlond preserved? I think it was, but Cirdan, being the oldest and, probably, the wisest of the Wise, anticipated that playing on God's territory, trying to change the Law of nature, wouldn't get a big sympathies from Eru. And, being precautious, he got rid of the Ring at the first opportunity.

[Olmer]

So you agree that the One could control the others. As for your power-transmitter idea, I can easily accept it along with "control", BUT with one important difference: I think the ONE could seep the "magic energy" from the other rings and transmit it NOT to the ringless Sauron, but to the WIELDER of the One. So Sauron needed his ring vitally. When not wielded, the One might just accumulate energy without transmitting it. Therefore it was so draining to keep the One close.
I have never said that it can't. It gives "control" to a certain degree, but don't forget that the ring was made by Sauron and I have no doubt that Sauron will not willingly give up the power to govern the world.
But I'm very sure that in order get what he want Sauron could step aside (not for the first time) and stay in the shadow patiently watching as the Ring slowly working at turning the new Ruler of the World (preferably a Noldor) into his servant, which would give him the GREAT satisfaction.
With eons of time at his disposal, waiting for a couple of thousand years to achieve the desired result for him would be a short period of time, comparable to a few weeks.

Even being on Isildur(for short period), Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo the Ring transmitted enough of energy to Sauron to be visible again in the form even hideous, but human-like. The draining happens when the energy is getting TRANSMITTED, not when it is getting ACCUMULATED (physic's law :) )

[Valandil]

:
:
Even being on Isildur(for short period), Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo the Ring transmitted enough of energy to Sauron to be visible again in the form even hideous, but human-like. The draining happens when the energy is getting TRANSMITTED, not when it is getting ACCUMULATED (physic's law :) )

OTOH, it could be reasoned that their 'draining' had to do with their lives being stretched out over more time.

[Olmer]

OTOH, it could be reasoned that their 'draining' had to do with their lives being stretched out over more time.
Who? Isildur's and Frodo's?
Isildur of Numenorisn bearing probably would become weary after long time of having the Ring in his posession, but on less durable person it would work faster. Frodo reached a total exhaustion in 6 month.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Tolkien himself said that the Rings maintained "enchanted enclaves of place when time seems to stand still and decay is restrained" (let.131).
How you can get old if the time is not moving and decay, the major factor of body's aging, is absent?

Was Mithlond preserved? I think it was, but Cirdan, being the oldest and, probably, the wisest of the Wise, anticipated that playing on God's territory, trying to change the Law of nature, wouldn't get a big sympathies from Eru. And, being precautious, he got rid of the Ring at the first opportunity.
But time would still be moving, the just wouldn't feel it.
I also wouldn't say he got rid of his Ring at the first opportunity. He could have thrown it to sea, but he didn't, someone wiser than him who he percieved would need the Ring alot more came along and he gave the ing to him.

[Gordis]

I have never said that it can't. It gives "control" to a certain degree, but don't forget that the ring was made by Sauron and I have no doubt that Sauron will not willingly give up the power to govern the world.
But I'm very sure that in order get what he want Sauron could step aside (not for the first time) and stay in the shadow patiently watching as the Ring slowly working at turning the new Ruler of the World (preferably a Noldor) into his servant, which would give him the GREAT satisfaction.)
I disagree that Sauron stopped aside willingly. I think that he was very weak without his ring in the second millenium the Third age, so he had to remain quiet as an unidentified Necromancer.

Even being on Isildur(for short period), Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo the Ring transmitted enough of energy to Sauron to be visible again in the form even hideous, but human-like. The draining happens when the energy is getting TRANSMITTED, not when it is getting ACCUMULATED (physic's law :) )
I meant the energy was being accumulated in the Ring itself, draining it from the person currently in possession. But actually I am no supporter of "energy theory" at all. I believe it is just redundant. Things can be easily explained without inventing a new concept.
The timing is wrong. When Isildur wore the Ring Sauron was a bodiless spirit; when Gollum Bilbo and Frodo wore the Ring Sauron must have been already fully incarnate (he run away from GandalF in 2063, returned after the Watchful peace etc.). So Sauron became visible IMHO just because he managed to collect some other rings (dwarven and nazgul) in the absence of the One. The One permitted him to become incarnate not directly, but by its mere existence

[Jon S.]

Personally, I believe the Ring operated akin to a computer program as opposed to possessing sentience but I understand others feel differently.

This is the second thread I've posted on tonight with a link to the FAQ of the Ring. Y'all should check it out, it's well done.

This link will take you directly to, "Could the One Ring think, feel, and make choices?"

http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-Sentient

[Olmer]

Personally, I believe the Ring operated akin to a computer program as opposed to possessing sentience but I understand others feel differently.
Totally agree with you. It was also my thinking that the ring was a very crafty
device with complicated programming, but in no way with presence of sentience.
You can’t even compare it to a dog, because dogs are having some intellect. The Ring does not.
If you will look on most obvious abilities of the Ring, it will be:
1. to attract a potential ring-bearer ( Beats me, but I don't see the clewer reason in making a such creative way for your own destruction!)
2. to dispatch the whereabout of it to the Dark Forces.
3. to suck the life force out of the ring - bearer (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo) turning him into the shell without his own will.
4. to establish mental connection between Sauron and the ring-bearer.
We have none evidence about this fabled magic power of the Ring, which gives the wielder “to rule them all�. Even the maker and owner himself has been overtaken by the plain mortal without any magic’s enhancement.
Judging by abovementioned characteristic, one could say that the Ring is a some kind of powerful computerized bio-magnetic transmitter, probably, working on couple miligramms of uranium (this explains the exhaustion of the bearers). Nothing magical, just different technology.

The whole book was written as a perception of things from hobbits point of view, and what for them looked like magic, for more advance race, as Elves, was just natural way of life . Similar to the perception on our use of mobil phone by people from a few cenuries ago.

By the way. Thanks for the link. Most interesting. Just need to find the time to read it all. :(
And welcome to the Moot! Hang around!

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=Nurvingiel]Excellent point Val! Aw crap there's practically nothing left to discuss. I wanted a good discussion in this thread.
(from page 1)

:p
as my grandma sometimes used to say, "its good to be wrong sometimes" - it'd always struck me as an odd saying mind you

going backto page 1 : i think the ring did deliberatly "betray" Isildur, although i really can't see how "betray" could mean anything in this situation: because Isildur may be wearing the ring but is not yet the ringlord, or the ring does not yet (if ever??) see him as its master, therefore it could not betray isludir, as it was acting (whether from malice and hatred of him IIsludur), or from its own will -being in part that of Sauron's influence on its design etc) actually being faithful to its master (i.e. Sauron):


or just trying to kill him or escape? I don't think ilsudur could have useed the ring for good, but the ring may have known that in time ilsudir's will would be strong for it (in terms of controlling him rather than him controlling it)- though the ring would still have changed corrupted and altered Isuldir either way over time

boy this is a good topic and don't know whrer to start: so aplogies if act as a DR who in this (time distortion ref: topics and points nas already in the contuinum) and work through the htread as and when i havethe time - which i don't just now - gotta go.

[Jon S.]

By the way. Thanks for the link. Most interesting. Just need to find the time to read it all. :(
And welcome to the Moot! Hang around!

You're very welcome and thank you, too. I will. :)

[Nurvingiel]

Well it looks like I didn't have to worry about the content of this thread at all! :D There have been some very excellent posts in here, thanks guys. :)

I agree with you about the Ring being like a computer program Jon S. I think it is a very advanced program, with some reasonable artificial intelligence. IOW it was "programmed" to respond certain ways in certain situations, and have some limited decision-making abilities based on what it knows about its surroundings.

[CrazySquirrel]

:confused: :eek: So there were no orcs at all? Galadriel and Elrong ambushed poor Isildur, done him in and moreover lost the ring in the process? Bad Bad Witch of Dwimordeme.

[Gordis]

:confused: :eek: So there were no orcs at all? Galadriel and Elrong ambushed poor Isildur, done him in and moreover lost the ring in the process? Bad Bad Witch of Dwimordeme.

It is only Olmer's POV. It looks like nobody shares it here

[CrazySquirrel]

It is only Olmer's POV. It looks like nobody shares it here
Just a thought, perhaps Sauron (and the other bad guys like Wikkie) shared this POV on Galadriel and Elrond also, therefore were not looking for the ring for so long before Gollum told Sau about it?

[Olmer]

It is only Olmer's POV. It looks like nobody shares it here
Nobody shares or nobody DARES? :cool:
It's scary thought, is not it? Because all this Virgin Mary's Galadriel image goes kaka. :rolleyes:

[Butterbeer]

Nobody shares or nobody DARES? :cool:
It's scary thought, is not it? Because all this Virgin Mary's Galadriel image goes kaka. :rolleyes:


I don't find it scary: just extremely unlikely: what then in your opinion had changed in Galdriel over time when Frodo offers her the ring in Lothlorien? (and anyway it's totally in her power to take by force if she wills for whatever reason)


Quote: carazy squirrel: So there were no orcs at all? Galadriel and Elrong ambushed poor Isildur, done him in and moreover lost the ring in the process? Bad Bad Witch of Dwimordeme.

Crazysquirrel that sounds so like like a 'pulp ficion' episode it cracks me up (samuel L jackson and J travolota, guns and stylised attitude, misconceoptions and total plot-friendly cock-ups)

[Olmer]

I don't find it scary: just extremely unlikely: what then in your opinion had changed in Galdriel over time when Frodo offers her the ring in Lothlorien? (and anyway it's totally in her power to take by force if she wills for whatever reason.
She did not want to HAVE it. She wanted to HIDE it without being pinpointed as a keeper of the ring, probably, on some neutral land, like hobbit's hole or the Big River. Her reasons for it gordis described very visual.

[Gordis]

I can't say I dare not believe it, I just can't, especially concerning Elrond's part. I think it was just a stroke of good chance for the Elves that an orc attack and the Ring's betrayal solved their biggest problem. Was it Eru's intervention as Gandalf suggested when speaking of Bilbo's finding the Ring?

But you have overlooked a very good point:
Just a thought, perhaps Sauron (and the other bad guys like Wikkie) shared this POV on Galadriel and Elrond also, therefore were not looking for the ring for so long before Gollum told Sau about it?
Sauron must have understood that Galadriel and Elrond had reasons to wish Isildur's death. I think his reconstruction of the events was wery similar to Olmer's. And he surely supposed that after killing Isildur, the Elves had hidden the Ring in one of their dungeons.

[Butterbeer]

She did not want to HAVE it. She wanted to HIDE it without being pinpointed as a keeper of the ring, probably, on some neutral land, like hobbit's hole or the Big River. Her reasons for it gordis described very visual.




she was undeniably Tempted! Is she little miss goody shoes now?
how elven wise is that to want to hide it in a hobbit hole with the nine abroad and knocking at the gaffer's door? unless they were moonlighting and selling Life Insurance?

If you refer to the wedding ring etc i must say Gordis has a knack for very visual description

[Butterbeer]

I can't say I dare not believe it, I just can't, especially concerning Elrond's part. I think it was just a stroke of good chance for the Elves that an orc attack and the Ring's betrayal solved their biggest problem. Was it Eru's intervention as Gandalf suggested when speaking of Bilbo's finding the Ring?

But you have overlooked a very good point:

Sauron must have understood that Galadriel and Elrond had reasons to wish Isildur's death. I think his reconstruction of the events was wery similar to Olmer's. And he surely supposed that after killing Isildur, the Elves had hidden the Ring in one of their dungeons.


at what point in time are we talking here?: at the time of the ring in the river sauron could have thought or percieved very little, for sure he may well have thought somewhat along the lines of Olmers's conjecture later, but at the time Smeagol is caught and tortured in Mordor, the ring is a) calling out to him and b) he learns it was found in the river by gollum and potentially is in 'shire' with 'Baggins', therefore not and never had been in the keeping of the elves?
I agree it's reasonable for sauron to have copnsidered that Isudir having the one would be a definite potential problem for the Elves specifically for the bearers or owners of the 3 (at this time Cirdan? Galad and Elrond???)

regarding bilbo finding the ring, the pre-ordained themes are heavily hinted at aren't they, but ERU? Possibly: i prefer to leave that as an aside, purely conjecture or it devalues the whole story: if ERU wants to intervene directly the result would be a given - agreed?

[Gordis]

at what point in time are we talking here?: at the time of the ring in the river sauron could have thought or percieved very little, for sure he may well have thought somewhat along the lines of Olmers's conjecture later, but at the time Smeagol is caught and tortured in Mordor
...regarding bilbo finding the ring, the pre-ordained themes are heavily hinted at aren't they, but ERU?
Sauron reappeared in TA 1050, by 2063 he was surely re-embodied, as he were able to flee from Gandalf. And Gollum was caught in 3007. So Sauron had at least 1000 years to think on ring's fate.
...I don't insist on ERU, make it just fate...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Initially I don't thonk this was the main thing on Sauron's mind. He was weak, and few knew he had survived the Last Alliance although I think placing himself in Mirkwood was clever. In UT it states that Sauron's servants were searching the Gladden and this was the reason Saruman decided to force him out of Dol Guldur in TA 2941, but by this time he knew that the Ring had been found by someone. I think he found out the creatures that were living near the Gladden were hobbits because of Khamul. There is also a chance that Gollum was found in Mirkwood by the servants of Khamul. In FotR Gandalf states that he followed Bilbo to Dale and then came back through Mirkwood. IMO Khamuls servants bought him to Mordor where he was tortured for information on the Ring and it was Sauron's lucky day when he realised that Gollum was infact the hobbit that had bourne the Ring. The rest can be gathered from UT and LotR. I think that Sauron had it in mind to search for the Ring when he placed himself in Mirkwood but his intial thought was to gather his strength back to him.

[Gordis]

Initially I don't thonk this was the main thing on Sauron's mind. He was weak, and few knew he had survived the Last Alliance although I think placing himself in Mirkwood was clever. ...
I think that Sauron had it in mind to search for the Ring when he placed himself in Mirkwood but his intial thought was to gather his strength back to him.
Yes, Sauron was weak initially and boosted his strength in the absence of the One by collecting some of the other rings of power: dwarven and nazgul ones. He would have loved to get some of the Three as well, if possible.
I agree with you, Telcontar_Dunedain, that placing himself in Mirkwood was very clever. I imagine Sauron sitting in his stronghold at Dol Guldur surrounded by spiders and acting like a spider himself : waiting for any ringbearer to pass near. Why has he chosen this location? IMHO, because Dol Guldur controlled the main roads: 1. Carrock crossing and the Forest road - the way Dwarves traditionally took on the way from the Blue mountains to the Iron Hills; 2. The North-South road along the Anduin (the one a nazgul had to take if he wanted to go from the South-East to Angmar). Also he was not that far from the Redhorn pass - the way from Imladris to Lorien- the way Elrond or Galadriel often took. Remember Celebrian's story? 2509 - "CelebrÃ*an, journeying to Lórien, is waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and receives a poisoned wound." I think Sauron made a trap on the Pass leading from Lorien to Rivendell in hope to capture either Galadriel or Elrond. Celebrian had no ring, but she must have been mistaken for her mother by silly orcs.
And of course we cannot rule out the possibility that Sauron sensed the nearness of the ring, somehow.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Good point about the Roads. Also it was near to the Elven Kingom in Mirkwood, near Lorien, two strongholds that had been generally untroubled in recent times. The mere present of Dol Guldur must have troubled their harts, Galadriel especially.

[Gordis]

Good point about the Roads. Also it was near to the Elven Kingom in Mirkwood, near Lorien, two strongholds that had been generally untroubled in recent times. The mere present of Dol Guldur must have troubled their harts, Galadriel especially.
It is strange though, why didn't the White Counsil take action against Dol Guldur much earlier - millenia earlier, while Sauron was weak? At first (1100)they perceived a Dark shadow, why not send a host of elves? Then since 2060 they thought it may have been one of the nazgul. Is it so usual to have a nazgul living in the neighborhood? But the White counsil did absolutely nothing. They started to discuss taking action in 2850 only when Gandalf learned for certain it was Sauron. Why?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that's true. I think Gandalf and Elrond pushed for an attack much earlier, but Saruman dissuaded the Council from taking action. Only when Gandalf learned that it was Sauron could Saruman no longer take no action.

[Gordis]

So you suggest Saruman was a traitor in his heart almost from the beginning?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No, I do not think he was truely a traitor until he was seduced by Sauron. But I do think that from about 1600- 1700 he was searching for the Ring.

[Gordis]

And how could "a nazgul" in Dol Guldur help him finding the Ring? Hardly Saruman expected a nazgul to dive for it :D (with their water-phobia!) :confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

In two ways. One, Saruman may have suspected it was Sauron long before Gandalf found out. Two, if a Nazgûl was searching for the One on behalf of Sauron then they would have had slaves searching for it. I can hardly imagine Sauron splashing around in the Gladden, shouting at the nine who all are wearing armbands!

[Gordis]

It would have taken much more than mere shouting to make a nazgul dive :D :eek:
Actually I agree with you, searching was surely done by lesser servants.
IMHO Sauron had no nazgul in his disposal while he lived in Dol Guldur.

[Olmer]

It is strange though, why didn't the White Counsil take action against Dol Guldur much earlier - millenia earlier, while Sauron was weak? Why?
Why evil fortress had been built in the middle of Elves realm and in very close proximity to Lorien and allowed to stay for 2000 years?
That's easy.The whole history of Dol Guldur suggests that it was a silent agreement amongs the Wise to consider Sauron as a counterweight of the Gondor's Empire , which already was clasping its greedy hands on far away countries. With wealth of such proportion that kids of Gondor would play with gemstones as they would do with pebbles, and with manpower many times enforced by slaves and servants from submissed countries I would't consider Gondor as harmless.
The Elves did not consider either.There was some kind of temporary peace agreement between Sauron and the Elves.

[Gordis]

Yes, you must be right, Olmer. I agree entirely for once. The White Counsil actions are very suspicious and treacherous towards their human allies. The Elves nursed a viper on their bosom as a counterweight to the expanding Mannish states. The Elves did not want to depend on any men's mercy, be it even an enlightened king of Elendil's line. They were afraid of a strong reunited Arnor and Gondor occupying all of Eriador and the Anduin Vale. In that case Imladris and Lorien would be cut from the sea and the road to Valinor.
So the Elves wanted some evil counterweight to exist. At first the Elves allowed the Witch-King to destroy all of Arnor. Yes, the Elves acted against him twice. In 1409 they were compelled to do so, as the Witch-King himself besieged Imladris. Then, of course, an elven host came (immediately!) from Lorien and defeated Angmar. But still they have not wiped Carn-Dum, they left the Witch-King be as a counterweight to Arnor. If the WK had not besieged Imladris, the scenario of 1974 would have been enacted 500 years earlier.
In 1974 the Elves did nothing to save Arnor from destruction, they came, but too late. Deliberately so, IMHO. Already in 1973 Arvedui knew that the end approaches and asked Gondor for immediate help. He must have asked the elves also. But they have waited 2 years to come.
Then Gondor defeated Angmar (with the belated help of elves) and has grown too strong, with no mannish counterweight. Then the importance of Dol Guldur for the Elves grew, as Sauron inspired raids on Gondor by wainriders (around 1945), balchots, corsairs of Umbar and so on. So Gondor has never become strong enough to occupy Eriador and Arnor.
And the Elves acted against Sauron only when he became dangerous for themselves (!) and when Saruman learned he was looking in the river for the Ring.
In UT there is an enlightening passage. Gandalf tells Frodo:
Gandalf then explained to them his doubts at that time concerning Sauron's first move, and his fears for Lórien and Rivendell .."That is why, to jump forward, I ...persuaded the Council to attack Dol Guldur first, before he attacked Lórien. We did, and Sauron fled. But he was always ahead of us in his plans. I must confess that I thought he really had retreated again, and that we might have another spell of watchful peace. But it did not last long. Sauron decided to take the next step. He returned at once to Mordor, and in ten years he declared himself.
"Then everything grew dark. And yet that was not his original plan; and it was in the end a mistake. Resistance still had somewhere where it could take counsel free from the Shadow. How could the Ringbearer have escaped, if there had been no Lórien or Rivendell? And those places might have fallen, I think, if Sauron had thrown all his power against them first, and not spent more than half of it in the assault on Gondor.
So the White counsel nursed a viper and then sent it to wage war on Gondor. Who cares about those mortals?
Also, IMHO Elrond supported Aragorn's line for a thousand years not so much out of kindness, but to have an ace in his sleeve against the Stewards. With that ace the Elves could organize a civil war in Gondor any time.

[Olmer]

Yes, you must be right, Olmer. I agree entirely for once.
Why? Most of the time you are in tune with my thoughts. We disagree only on details. ;) :)

They were afraid of a strong reunited Arnor and Gondor occupying all of Eriador and the Anduin Vale.
In 1974 the Elves did nothing to save Arnor from destruction, they came, but too late. Deliberately so, IMHO. Already in 1973 Arvedui knew that the end approaches and asked Gondor for immediate help. He must have asked the elves also. But they have waited 2 years to come.

And the Elves acted against Sauron only when he became dangerous for themselves (!)
Exactly! Somewhere in the forum I wrote the similar thoughts.
In 1973 of the Third Age a “messages (not just one) came to Gondor that Arthedain was in a great straits“.The end of North-kingdom was not in the best interests of the king Earnil, for he wished that realms of Elendil shouldn’t be estranged and vowed to send an aid when they have need. And he kept his word and sent his son Earnur with a fleet as swiftly as he could, and the fleet arrived to the Grey Havens.
But why the fleet and why it took 2 (!) years to bring an army by ships, what kind of hindrance prevented them to bring the great cavalry of Gondor much more sooner by the straight and paved Great Road? For Boromir, in spite of his wandering and lost of his horse, it took just 110 days.
I can’t see any reason but an assumption that the Gondorians had been “advised� to bring the army to the elven harbors, where it could be “enpowered “ with whatever force (not that much) the elves could gather. Then the the arrival of the fleet was cleverly keept delayed by, I have no doubt, the same “advisers� till the Witch King overrun Arthedain.
Then much later we see the same elegant passage of the elve ‘s politics.
In 3429 of the Second Age Sauron attacks Gondor. Anarion stays defending Osgiliath and Isildur sails to Lindon seeking help, because they “knew that unless help should come this kingdom would not long stand� (Sil.)
In 3430 the Last Alliance has been formed, and not because of the dire need of neighbor in distress, but because “they( means the elves also) perceived that Sauron would grow too strong and would overcome all his enemies one by one. � (Sil.)
In 3431 they gathered a great host of Elves and Men , which marched east of Middle -earth and then… “ they HALTED FOR A WHILE in Imladris � (Sil.) (??)
How long is this “a while� - TWO YEARS(!!)
In 3434 the army finally crosses the Misty Mountains and besieges Barad-Dur.
Concerning that the plea for help came 5(!) years ago, what was holding them from sending already gathered the “great host� to divert Sauron’s army from struggling Gondor, instead of waiting for another 3 years? Nothing comes to mind, but that it was the secret hopes that Gondor won’t last for so long.

The quote of Gandalf’s slip-out is one of few discoveries discrediting the elve’s politics . Real gem.

Also, IMHO Elrond supported Aragorn's line for a thousand years not so much out of kindness, but to have an ace in his sleeve against the Stewards. With that ace the Elves could organize a civil war in Gondor any time.
So , you finally agree with me that Elrond has had( or has to carry on) his own and not so noble agendas. :evil:
And he had to make sure that in spite of wars and unrests Isildur’s line has never get broken.
What do you think of Halbarad?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Then Gondor defeated Angmar (with the belated help of elves) and has grown too strong, with no mannish counterweight
The quote is actually the elves defeated Angmar (with the belated help of the Gondorians). The elves weren't strong enough to defeat Angmars forces alone, they needed allies to do so, but Gondor was also at war at that time.

[Gordis]

Most of the time you are in tune with my thoughts. We disagree only on details. .
I disagree with you on a very important issue: the nature of the One Ring. I believe in a canonical version of it. I believe Sauron really wanted it. So we have to disagree on all the Dark side motivations. And you have not accepted my nazgul-freedom argumentation, which has vexed me a little, I must admit ;) . I thought you were broad-minded enough for it :p . However, you have not provided any facts proving that Sauron used the nazgul in any way before TA 2951.

As for the elven policy, you are right, it stinks. As any REAL policy stinks (not a fairy-tale one). Elves minded their own interests only, to a complete disregard of mannish interests.

But why the fleet and why it took 2 (!) years to bring an army by ships, what kind of hindrance prevented them to bring the great cavalry of Gondor much more sooner by the straight and paved Great Road? For Boromir, in spite of his wandering and lost of his horse, it took just 110 days. I can’t see any reason but an assumption that the Gondorians had been “advised� to bring the army to the elven harbors, where it could be “enpowered “ with whatever force (not that much) the elves could gather. Then the the arrival of the fleet was cleverly keept delayed by, I have no doubt, the same “advisers� till the Witch King overrun Arthedain.
I doubt that king Earnil had any elven advisors. Gondor seems totally estranged from elves by this time. Sure, the help could have been sent by land and in time, if Earnil wished it. I suppose he himself wanted Arvedui out of the game, along with all his brood, if possible. Arvedui was a pretender for Gondor throne, and his claim was good. And Earnil had a single son and not too interested in women to give much hope for grandchildren. So Earnil simply waited for the Witch-King to do the dirty work for him.

The quote of Gandalf’s slip-out is one of few discoveries discrediting the elve’s politics . Real gem. Yes it is. I am amazed how well the elvish PR works on all of us. We read, but we do not really understand. The image of oh-so-holy and oh-so-fair elves cannot be marred by anything. Even in LOTR there is enough data to question the Elven-holiness. I still remember reading the scene with Gildor for a first time, many-many years ago. A group of seasoned Elven warriors meets three frightened hobbits (they should seem like children to them - both in size and in age). They learn that the hobbits are pursued by the most terrible creatures that one can have a misfortune to meet. Any normal men would have taken them to safety, at least to Buckland. But no, the elves are busy singing. So they leave them to fend for themselves with a following words: ‘I do not know for what reason the Enemy is pursuing you, but I perceive that he is - strange indeed though that seems to me. And I warn you that peril is now both before you and behind you, and upon either side.’ Nice guy, this Gildor, isn't he? I thought at that time: It is outright criminal. I think, penal codes of most countries contain something about "Leaving in danger"... But no, the hobbits do not mind: ‘They seem a bit above my likes and dislikes, so to speak,’ answered Sam slowly. ‘It don’t seem to matter what I think about them. They are quite different from what I expected - so old and young, and so gay and sad, as it were.’ And the readers are lulled by elven beauty and wisdom along with poor Sam.
So , you finally agree with me that Elrond has had( or has to carry on) his own and not so noble agendas.
And he had to make sure that in spite of wars and unrests Isildur’s line has never get broken.
What do you think of Halbarad?
Well, helping Aragorn's family WAS noble, even if it had other advantages. Murdering Isildur was a base treachery; I still don't think Erlond could do this.
Halbarad? Aragorn's kinsman and second-in command? What is wrong with him?


The quote is actually the elves defeated Angmar (with the belated help of the Gondorians). The elves weren't strong enough to defeat Angmars forces alone, they needed allies to do so, but Gondor was also at war at that time.
Sorry, it is wrong, I suggest you check the facts before replying.
'But when Eärnur came to the Grey Havens there was joy and great wonder among both Elves and Men. So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage... Then CÃ*rdan summoned all who would come to him, from Lindon or Arnor, and when all was ready the host crossed the Lune and marched north to challenge the Witch-king of Angmar. .....Then the Witch-king, with all that he could gather from the wreck, fled northwards, seeking his own land of Angmar. Before he could gain the shelter of Carn Dûm the cavalry of Gondor overtook him with Eärnur riding at their head. At the same time a force under Glorfindel the Elf-lord came up out of Rivendell" (LOTR, Appendix A )
So the Elves joined the fight AFTER the overwhelming force came from Gondor.
Also there is no mention in the Tale of Years of Gondor being at war with anybody else at the time.

[Olmer]

I believe Sauron really wanted it .
To meet you half-way...I believe Sauron really wanted to know for sure of its whereabout, othervise he would be more persistant in his search.
And you have not accepted my nazgul-freedom argumentation...
Why? I liked your argumentation. Very well thought through and quite believable.I had nothing to contradict with. :)

I doubt that king Earnil had any elven advisors. I suppose he himself wanted Arvedui out of the game, along with all his brood, if possible.
Let say, not an advisers , but "coordinators". Since Earnil brought his fleet to the Grey Havens, I would say he had to contact some elvish authotities about the possibility to accomodate such armada. Could it be that this autorities were delaying his arrival under different excuses?
On another hand, I agree that Earnil has had his private ideas in terms how to help the King of Arthedain, and the elves delays were suited him as an excuse for his delay, otherwise what was holding him to send the help sooner.
I am amazed how well the elvish PR works on all of us. We read, but we do not really understand.
Even in LOTR there is enough data to question the Elven-holiness.
I still remember reading the scene with Gildor for a first time, many-many years ago...

The whole elves history in Silmarillion shows to us that the elves are not-so-holly. Then what happened in LOTR? The same persons all of the sudden got a nimbus, because the story was told from the different chronicler's point of view.
The understanding comes with scrupulous comparison of the data and careful reading of every sentence.

Yeh, Gildor's unassistedness struck me as too strange too. But when I read more carefully, I found that his unvillingness to help was motivated by the avoidance of meddling in wizards's plans (I wrote about in the discussion "Three is company"), and the second is that they don't give a flying pig about "the ways of hobbits, or another creature upon earth.� Quite sobering revelation for elves-worshipers .

Well, helping Aragorn's family WAS noble, even if it had other advantages.
Halbarad? What is wrong with him?
Helping is always noble, but in this case there was more advantages than nobility.
About Halbarad more detailed is in the Halbarad - next to kin (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showpost.php?p=384253&postcount=33)
Murdering Isildur was a base treachery; I still don't think Erlond could do this. It was a base treachery even without murder, but elven history seems contains not just one example of betrayal.
He probably had no plans to murder Isildur, he was sent to oversee and maybe "persuade" Isildur by this way that the Ring "should go to the Keepers of the Three" But *** happens. Unfortunately, Isildur got too attached to the Ring and decided to keep it away from the Keepers even if it cost him his life.

[Gordis]

Why? I liked your argumentation. Very well thought through and quite believable.I had nothing to contradict with. :)
I must have misunderstood you, sorry :o . I am glad :)


About Halbarad more detailed is in the Halbarad - next to kin (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showpost.php?p=384253&postcount=33)
I have posted my answer in Why Aragorn? tread.

[Gordis]

On another hand, I agree that Earnil has had his private ideas in terms how to help the King of Arthedain, and the elves delays were suited him as an excuse for his delay, otherwise what was holding him to send the help sooner.

I should say the delay with help was both in Elvish and Gondor's interests. But a different delay.

The Elves wanted the Witch-King to conquer all of Arnor, and to build a strong "evil" state as a serious counter-weight to the powerful Gondor. Than Gondor and Arnor would be constantly at war with each other and nobody would give the Elves a second thought. And in case if Arnor started to win, the Elves could help Gondor a little (earning their gratitude). In case if Gondor started to win, they could let Sauron send some wainriders or balkhots to their eastern borders. With that policy the Elves would be able to enjoy the timeless peace and beauty of their realms unmolesed by men for indefinite time..
So they needed a serious delay (a hundred of years?) to let the "highly professional King" Witchy to rise Arnor to strength and prosperity.

Earnur, for his part, needed Arvedui's line ended, but by no means wanted to let the Witch-King rule Arnor afterwards. He was no fool to delay too long, otherwise Arnor could prove to become too large a morsel to swallow. I think he set his fleet out at the very news of Arvedui's death in Forochel.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Sorry, it is wrong, I suggest you check the facts before replying.

Cirdan of Lune and Elrond, with belated help sent by sea from King Eärnil, defeat Angmar. The Witch-King is overthrown and his realm destroyed. He flies south and comes at last to Mordor.
Taken from the Heirs of Elendil, HoME 12

[Gordis]

Taken from the Heirs of Elendil, HoME 12
Please forgive me Telcontar!
Gordis

[CAB]

Dang. I thought I had come up with a new idea, checked around, and Olmer had beat me to it by three years, probably more. Oh well.

I agree with Olmer that it is very likely that the Elves were involved with Isildur's death and the loss of the Ring, though I differ with him in the details. This may seem terribly wrong and out of character for them, but look at the situation. By taking the Ring, Isildur has effectively made himself far and away the single greatest threat in Middle Earth. He leads the remnants of a people who, due to corruption by Sauron, had recently (it would be like yesterday to the Elves) caused the very nature of the world to be changed. Also the holders of the three rings could not become wielders while Isildur held the One.

It seems probable that Isildur would never again be as vulnerable as he was on the road back to Arnor. The Elves knew that eventually he would become a terrible tyrant. In order to protect themselves they had to act. To me, there is nothing particularly evil about this, assuming the more peaceful means of getting the Ring from Isildur had been attempted first (I believe they probably were). Leaders of people are sometimes forced to make such difficult decisions, in this case a few deaths now vs. countless more later.

I disagree with Olmer that the Elves attacked the men of Arnor themselves. Whether they could have hidden the signs of their involvement from the searchers that would eventually come, I can't say, but the Elves surely could not hide such an ambush from the Palantiri. Probably, Isildur's journey north was being tracked by his people through the Seeing Stones. (This I learned from Gordis and is part of one of the best Tolkien's world theories I have ever read. I hope I can convince her to post it here at Entmoot.) To me, the best answer is that the Elves somehow "tipped off" a suitably large and well positioned orc force about the Arnoreans' march.

This may explain the ambush, but still leaves open the question of Isildur's death and the One's loss. The Ring ending up in the river is incredibly lucky for the Elves. Maybe there were Elvish hunters observing the battle from a distance. They saw Isildur's disappearance and tracked him. This possibility had been anticipated. They knew that those possibly watching via the Palantiri couldn't follow an invisible man, and so, would not see them either. When Isildur was far enough away from the battle and the time was right, the hunters did what they had to do, and the Elves gained an extra three thousand years in Middle Earth.

[Valandil]

Wow CAB... you've joined the ranks of the Conspiracy Theorists! :p

And it sure presents a different view from the commonest ones about Elves. Makes them more... perilous... and having little regard for Men. But even that's in keeping with the way they guard their borders, for instance (at Lorien in LOTR, and by imprisoning some wandering Dwarves in The Hobbit).

Interesting...

And (by that theory - I'm not on board with it yet), they sort of allow themselves the concession that there will still be a descendant of Elendil and Isildur to take the thone of Arnor, since there was still a young one under Elrond's care back in Imladris. He just wouldn't have the Ring.

OTOH though - so little was probably known then about the potential influence of the One Ring on a new bearer, or what power someone besides Sauron wielding it might have - since none other than Sauron had ever had it up to that time. You could say, of course, that the Elves wouldn't want to take that chance...

[CAB]

Wow CAB... you've joined the ranks of the Conspiracy Theorists! :p
Hmm…I thought I was already a member :) (at least a little bit, I think I'm pretty open minded).

And it sure presents a different view from the commonest ones about Elves. Makes them more... perilous... and having little regard for Men. But even that's in keeping with the way they guard their borders, for instance (at Lorien in LOTR, and by imprisoning some wandering Dwarves in The Hobbit).
I would argue that it is a much more realistic view. Like Gordis (as she pointed out in this very thread), I prefer to look at Tolkien's work from a "historical" perspective. Looked at this way, the Elves have to be considered as real living / breathing entities. Real living / breathing entities have to look after their own interests in order to survive. Looking after one's own interests sometimes involves doing things that could be considered morally wrong (such as destroying a future threat before that threat can destroy you). That is the way of the real world, and I like to consider Middle Earth as if it were the real world (for the same reason as Gordis, it's more interesting).

so little was probably known then about the potential influence of the One Ring on a new bearer, or what power someone besides Sauron wielding it might have - since none other than Sauron had ever had it up to that time. You could say, of course, that the Elves wouldn't want to take that chance...
I wonder how much was already known. How did they know so much later? Gollum's case certainly showed them some things, but why did they say the Ring was a greater threat to the powerful? Only one powerful person aside from Sauron held the Ring, right? I would guess that Isildur was already showing signs of what he would become if he was allowed to keep the One. The histories involving these signs were probably cleaned up by those recording them for various reasons (Numenoreans = show only glorious side of great King, Elves = don't draw suspicion on selves concerning Isildur's death by showing how important that death was).

[Valandil]

What's interesting too, in an ironic sense, would be how Aragorn/Elessar abhored the fact that Saruman had apparently left the bones of his ancestor Isildur to rot where they lay, when he found the Elendilmir (in the note of the UT account of "Disaster of the Gladden"). How would he have reacted to think that the Elves had basically PUT those bones there? The very people who had raised him... who had been his lifelong allies... into which he had even married! :eek:

[CAB]

What's interesting too, in an ironic sense, would be how Aragorn/Elessar abhored the fact that Saruman had apparently left the bones of his ancestor Isildur to rot where they lay, when he found the Elendilmir (in the note of the UT account of "Disaster of the Gladden"). How would he have reacted to think that the Elves had basically PUT those bones there? The very people who had raised him... who had been his lifelong allies... into which he had even married! :eek:
Probably not something he would want to think about too much. But, having said that, I don't believe that Aragorn would be as surprised as many would think. As you said, he was raised among these people. He saw them as they truly were (I'm not arguing they were evil here, but real, live beings) not as the storybook images we have.

[Valandil]

Perhaps, on reflection, he'd even see it as a better fate for his ancestor, than the alternative...

[Gordis]

Ohh… another great old thread- my first one, indeed. I confess I haven’t re-read it now, partly because it is so long, but partly on purpose: to have a fresh view of the matter.

I think you are right, CAB (and Olmer), that the people MOST interested in Isildur’s death, VITALLY interested even, were those who had the other rings of power: Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, the 9 nazgul, maybe also the Dwarf-lords (though the latter were never really governed by the One – so I leave them out). It is just totally unrealistic to think that they would have waited idly for a new Ringlord to emerge and enslave them.

On one hand, we have the ambush on the East bank – led by “the grim servants of Barad-Dur(UT)�. Now can we be sure that there wasn’t a single Ringwraith among them? We know that some/most/all (??) of the nazgul fled East after the Fall of Barad-Dur - but in two years they might have returned. Alternatively, as we are never told about the nazgul during the fights of the Last Alliance, probably some have always been away from Mordor – preparing and leading reinforcements from the subject lands or prowling on the Alliance’s communication lines. Anyway, we are told that the orcs were drawn to the Ring – and if there were Ringwraiths in Mirkwood it gets so much easier to explain how they spotted the Ring. Also it might explain why the invisible Isildur chose to swim over (a rather perilous thing to attempt, specially at night) and not to run upstream or downstream or into the trees and hide.

On the other hand, we have an ambush on the West bank – because Isildur was slain near the West bank: his body was found there by Saruman, and Gollum found the Ring by the west bank, as he lived on the west bank near the Gladden river (see here: http://www.ititches.com/middleearth/index.html)
And this ambush is interesting. Think about it: west bank, right midway between Rivendell and Lorien, two years after the victory. Was it likely to find orcs there? Not at all likely, if you ask me, next to impossible even. Any orc would have long ago moved upriver a bit, crossed to the East bank at the “old Ford� and joined the Mirkwood company – or gone to hide in the caves of the Misty mountains. Much more likely was to find Elves on the west bank- namely Elrond and Galadriel and some of their people.

I disagree with Olmer that the Elves attacked the men of Arnor themselves. Whether they could have hidden the signs of their involvement from the searchers that would eventually come, I can't say, but the Elves surely could not hide such an ambush from the Palantiri. Probably, Isildur's journey north was being tracked by his people through the Seeing Stones. ..To me, the best answer is that the Elves somehow "tipped off" a suitably large and well positioned orc force about the Arnoreans' march.


I agree with CAB. The first part- the fighting on the East bank- seems OK: happened as reported. It had a few surviving witnesses and the area was later examined not only by the Elves, but also by Men from surrounding areas and likely by Valandil’s mannish entourage from Rivendell. As for the Palantiri, (see my thread here: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=598401#post598401) it is unknown if Isildur was followed via the Seeing Stones or not, but the Elves had to expect it – so they couldn’t have ambushed the 200-strong Dunedain party in plain daylight themselves and hope to get away with it.

But… they likely knew about the big orc force on the other bank and chose NOT to warn Isildur.

Let us go further. Isildur swam across the river. But did the Ring abandon Isildur or was he slain with the Ring on? If he was slain by Calaquendi Elves (like Galadriel, or Glorfindel, or Gildor and Co) or ring-wielders (like Elrond) then he might have been slain while invisible to mortal eyes, still wearing the Ring. But the Ring was later found separately from Isildur’s body, so those who slew him had to take off the Ring from his finger and throw it into the river. It is unlikely: very strange hiding place – so near the bank. Why not damp it in the middle of the river or better still throw it into the Sea (Orodruin being dormant)?
So, I believe this part is also correct: the Ring abandoned Isildur while he was approaching the west bank.

Why did the Ring choose this exact moment to slip off? Did it want to get lost in the River? Unlikely, and note that it didn’t slip in the middle of the river, but by the bank. The Ring had no senses of its own, IMO, it only processed the feelings of its wielder (for the explanations see here: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=598400#post598400 ).

It must have slipped because Isildur saw someone/something awaiting him on the West bank – but what? Orcs? But how could Isildur, an inexperienced Ring-wielder, see the concealed orcs at night, while he was still in the hazy World of Shadow? See this quote about Sam: But they marched up like a phantom company, grey distorted figures in a mist, only dreams of fear with pale flames in their hands.

And who is so very visible in the hazy world of Shadow? Nazgul, right, but also Calaquendi Elves: With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.
I guess Isildur saw Elves and was glad. The Ring “saw� them (through his eyes) and was not. It preferred to lie on the bottom of the river for centuries than to get into the Elves’s hands. So it slipped off.

Did the Elves start shooting when Isildur were still invisible? Maybe yes, maybe not, but the Calaquendi must have identified the Wannabe Ringlord without doubt. Likely they were waiting for the man to get out of the water. And they had to kill him – because otherwise he would have done everything to retrieve the Ring, as he knew exactly where he lost it.

And (by that theory - I'm not on board with it yet), the Elves sort of allow themselves the concession that there will still be a descendant of Elendil and Isildur to take the thone of Arnor, since there was still a young one under Elrond's care back in Imladris. He just wouldn't have the Ring.
Elves are good people, after all.;) They should have felt remorse, that’s why they constantly cared for the line of Isildur-Valandil, but not for the Gondorian line of Anarion.

[CAB]

Perhaps, on reflection, he'd even see it as a better fate for his ancestor, than the alternative...
Definitely. Kind of like the difference between being an Abraham Lincoln or a Hitler.

So, I believe this part is also correct: the Ring abandoned Isildur while he was approaching the west bank.
While I like your explanation, I still don't agree with this. You have included two of the reasons why in your post (how thoughtful).:)


I get the impression that Isildur was on the run for quite awhile after fleeing from the battle. Supposedly he first "ran like a stag from the hounds" and then "halted, to make sure that he was not pursued" and "then he went on more warily". Seems reasonable, pretty much what anyone in the same position would do, I think. I also think that what pretty much anyone (including Isildur) would do is take off the Ring after the post sprint pause. Here's why.

First, the sprint probably would have continued if he thought that Orcs were near behind him.

Second, the Ring was still extremely hot at this time, burning him. I know that fear can overcome pain for a while, but not forever. Once the initial rush wore off, the burning would probably be unbearable.


while he was still in the hazy World of Shadow
Third, Isildur wouldn't want to sneak around with his senses impaired if he could help it.
chose to swim over (a rather perilous thing to attempt, specially at night)
Last, and to me probably most important, he surely wouldn't want to cross a river at night with his senses impaired. Only a fool would do such a thing, and as soon as some water got in the lungs, the fool would probably wise up. If the Orcs were right behind him, that would be another matter of course, but it seems that they were not.

[Olmer]

It was fun to re-read the whole thread, it refreshed my memory and made me realise of being mistaken about some points.;)

CAB, I like your observation on Isildur's escape, seems he has had another purpose than just to run away and hide, because as invisible you can walk through the wood for miles being unnoticeable. But plunging into a swirling and swift river with a "little hope to gain the other shore"(UT) is looking like having a death wish. :confused:
Besides, swimming in the water is the most blatant way to reveal yourself even being invisible. :rolleyes:
I agree with you that Isildur was not keeping the Ring on his finger, since he "dread the pain of touching it"(UT) So he would put on the Ring only in an extreme situation, which might has happened twice: on the battlefield and when he was swimming in the river. If in the first instance I agree with Gordis on a possible presence of a lesser Ringwraith among the attackers, then the second is totally open to a speculation. :evil:

Think about it: west bank, right midway between Rivendell and Lorien, two years after the victory. Was it likely to find orcs there? Not at all likely, if you ask me, next to impossible even. Any orc would have long ago moved upriver a bit, crossed to the East bank at the “old Ford� and joined the Mirkwood company
Don't forget that Dunedain were walking on a friendly territory even on the East bank of the river."People of the Vales had been his allies in victory." (UT) and Amon Lanc (future Dol Guldur) at that time was elve's dwelling.:)

[CAB]

If in the first instance I agree with Gordis on a possible presence of a lesser Ringwraith among the attackers, then the second is totally open to a speculation. :evil:
I don't think I would agree that a Ringwraith was present, but the ferocity of the Orcs' attack (many were basically sacrificing themselves to defeat the Arnoreans) could be evidence for this. Maybe rather than being pulled by the Ring, the Orcs were being pushed by a Nazgul.

[Valandil]

Grrrrr... I loaned out my copy of UT 6 months ago, and still haven't got it back, so pardon me if I can't refer to what is written there.

As for swimming the Gladden - why, Olmer, do you say that he had 'little hope to gain the other shore'? And you have it in quotes - was that in the UT account? I don't remember it, but I do remember from the 'Description of Numenor' that the Numenoreans excelled at swimming. Besides - he apparently made it all the way, until he unfortunately met a winged messenger at the other side (of whose sending, we seem to be at odds).

Also Olmer - I don't think the Ring was STILL so hot. It was when he wrote the scroll which Gandalf recounted to Frodo. But it was now going on two years since he had taken it from Sauron's finger. He also says there, 'even as I write it is cooled...'

Gordis - the west bank may have been between Lorien and Rivendell, but there were a LOT of miles between the two, as well as a great mountain range. That area was pretty clearly wilderness, and we shouldn't assume it was settled & 'safe' just because it lay in between those two lands.

As for Orc archers being stationed there as the UT account says, they may have just been sent there - maybe as soon as the Orcs spotted Isildur's convoy. They could have sent some lads across the way in a hidden boat or two, knowing that they would attack from the east, so that they might pick up escapees who might make it across the river, if any escaped that way. I don't think there's a need to suppose that this detachment of Orc archers had been sitting there for 10 years or so.

As for the 'dread the pain of touching it'- which you quote from the UT account, why do you discard so much of what that account says, but keep that piece? Are you folks just picking and choosing parts that support an alternate theory, and tossing out parts that oppose it?

[Gordis]

CAB - I see your reasons to think that Isildur took off the Ring before getting into the water. But taking it off, he would most likely put it into that special locker he had with him and which Saruman later recovered. No way could the Ring slip out of that one. So your argument implies either:
1. that the killers of Isildur took the Ring out of the locker and threw it into the river, and then dumped Isildur's body (with Elendilmir, precious locker etc.) into the river separately. That is impossible if the attackers were Orcs, very unlikely with Elves.
2. or that Isildur, while swimming, took the Ring out of the locker and attempted to put it on his finger when it slipped off by its own volition.
3. or that isildur, while swimming, took the ring out of the locker and deliberately let it sink - not to give it to those waiting for him on the west bank (that was Olmer's idea early in this thread)

[Gordis]

Val, I don't think any of us are deliberately disregarding information from UT or LOTR.
Here is the quote Olmer mentioned: "He was a man of strength and endurance that few even of the Dúnedain of that age could equal, but he had little hope to gain the other shore." (I guess because the river was swift here and he was vert tired already)

When Isildur got the Ring it was "hot as a glede", then it was gradually cooling but still painful to wear.
"Atarinya," he said, "what of the power that would cow these foul creatures and command them to obey you? Is it then of no avail?"
"Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three."
Note, Val, that the Ring was hot, but seemingly Isildur did make some unsuccessful attempts to bend it to its will. But, as it was in TA 2, he couldn’t even attempt to cow orcs.
On the other hand, the nazgul (if present)had to be apprehensive of the one who had the ring, so it made sense that even if all the nine were there nearby, driving the orcs onwards, they themselves would stay away:
The hunt for the Ring, Readers Companion p 164-5: “If [the ringbearer] is a person of power and knowledge he may find out indeed how to use it, and compel a Nazgûl to leave him unmolested at the least.�

Then here is some settings info: the fight happened at the beginning of October TA 2. The orcs attacked before sunset , that would be around 6-7 pm, I guess. The river was "seven leagues or more from the place of battle. Night had fallen when [Isildur] fled; he reached Anduin at midnight or near it. [Author's note.27]"
I was unable to find out what the phase of the Moon was - a pity, but it looks like the sky was overcast anyway.
Note that if the night were very dark, Isildur wearing the ring might see better than a mortal - the case of Sam in Shelob's lair. Maybe Isildur left the ring on, while he swam, because it is said: "Isildur turned west, and drawing up the Ring that hung in a wallet from a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger with a cry of pain, and was never seen again by any eye upon Middle-earth."

And that's how Isildur lost his ring according to UT
Before he had gone far he was forced to turn almost north against the current; and strive as he might he was ever swept down towards the tangles of the Gladden Fields. They were nearer than he had thought, 29 and even as he felt the stream slacken and had almost won across he found himself struggling among great rushes and clinging weeds. There suddenly he knew that the Ring had gone. By chance, or chance well used, it had left his hand and gone where he could never hope to find it again. At first so overwhelming was his sense of loss that he struggled no more, and would have sunk and drowned. But swift as it had come the mood passed. The pain had left him. A great burden had been taken away. His feet found the river bed, and heaving himself up out of the mud he floundered through the reeds to a marshy islet close to the west¬ern shore. There he rose up out of the water: only a mortal man, a small creature lost and abandoned in the wilds of Mid¬dle-earth. But to the night-eyed Orcs that lurked there on the watch he loomed up, a monstrous shadow of fear, with a piercing eye like a star. They loosed their poisoned arrows at it, and fled. Needlessly, for Isildur unarmed was pierced through heart and throat, and without a cry he fell back into the water. No trace of his body was ever found by Elves or Men.

What of it is correct, what isn't?

And the last sentence might be especially interesting for you, Val.;)
So passed the first victim of the malice of the masterless Ring: Isildur, second King of all the Dúnedain, lord of Arnor and Gondor, and in that age of the World the last.
So, it looks like Valandil and his descendants never claimed that title after all - before Aragorn.

[Valandil]

Gordis - the main thing some of you may be disregarding is the 'who shot whom' - but that's very important, of course. :)

I still think the Ring had cooled (since Isildur had written in the scroll describing it that it cooled - as recounted at the Council of Elrond). Perhaps it was painful to Isildur for some other reason.

As to the very last - conflicting information, or at least when it says he is the 'last' - it may mean the last to be recognized as King of both Arnor and Gondor - while not excluding the possibility of a King of Arnor still being considered "High King" over both. I believe Appendix A is clear that the Kings of Arnor were considered High Kings all the way through Earendur - up to the time of Arnor's Division.

Now... will no one but me dispute for the honor and goodness of the Elves? :( No "true believers" left out there? :p


BTW - my comment about this being a view of the Elves that makes them seem more 'perilous' was refering to comments by the Professor himself. At least that's how I THINK he put it. He makes it plain that it isn't an easy thing for Men to just go off frolicking with Elves - as many people seem to want to perceive things. So THAT part of it, I was just implying, does lend some credence to this theory. But... we cannot fully explore it unless someone argues the reverse, can we? :)

[CAB]

CAB - I see your reasons to think that Isildur took off the Ring before getting into the water. But taking it off, he would most likely put it into that special locker he had with him and which Saruman later recovered. No way could the Ring slip out of that one. So your argument implies either:
1. that the killers of Isildur took the Ring out of the locker and threw it into the river, and then dumped Isildur's body (with Elendilmir, precious locker etc.) into the river separately. That is impossible if the attackers were Orcs, very unlikely with Elves.
2. or that Isildur, while swimming, took the Ring out of the locker and attempted to put it on his finger when it slipped off by its own volition.
3. or that isildur, while swimming, took the ring out of the locker and deliberately let it sink - not to give it to those waiting for him on the west bank (that was Olmer's idea early in this thread)
There are probably other options. For one, perhaps the Elvish hunters made their move as Isildur approached the river. He, being aware of his danger, tried to take out the Ring, and lost it in the water. I'm sure their are other possible scenarios. As for the options you gave, number one doesn't sound terribly unreasonable for the Elves to me. They would only be doing what they were sent to do.

As for the heat of the Ring, there do seem to be some inconsistencies. As far as this theory goes though, it isn't really important. What is important is that wearing the Ring was causing Isildur great pain, whether through burning or something else. When he put the Ring on, this tough, war hardened, king of the Numenoreans, cried out in pain. I don't think he would leave it on his finger any longer than necessary.

[Gordis]

There are probably other options. For one, perhaps the Elvish hunters made their move as Isildur approached the river. He, being aware of his danger, tried to take out the Ring, and lost it in the water.
That is my option number 2!

Val: I have read 2-3 pages (this thread is really soo... long) and I saw that I used to defend Elrond. Oh how young and naive I used to be 2 years ago...:D
But seriously, I still don't think Elrond was in it by his own choice: likely he was compelled by his soon-to-be mother-in-law. They were likely all living in Rivendell at the time. Galadriel herself probably sent some trusted elves, and maybe even came herself. Unlike Elrond, she had no reason to pity Isildur.
The other one I see there is Glorfindel. Maybe he was in charge.

As for the moral side of it ... it would have been strange if the Elves did nothing at all to prevent Isildur becoming the next Dark Lord and their master. It would have been weakness on their part to sit and watch idly.

I don't believe Isildur really had an intention to give the Ring to the keepers of the Three: he might have played with the thought, but actually give it away is another thing.

[CAB]

That is my option number 2!
Umm...that's not quite how I meant it. If he was running towards the water, got an arrow in the back, and fell or lurched into the river, then he wasn't swimming and it wasn't necessarily the Ring choosing to leave him.

[Gordis]

Umm...that's not quite how I meant it. If he was running towards the water, got an arrow in the back, and fell or lurched into the river, then he wasn't swimming and it wasn't necessarily the Ring choosing to leave him.

Then it would have happened by the East bank - and the Ring was found by the West Bank.

[Olmer]

Now... will no one but me dispute for the honor and goodness of the Elves? No "true believers" left out there?
Now you know how I used to feel!:D
As for Orc archers being stationed there as the UT account says, they may have just been sent there - maybe as soon as the Orcs spotted Isildur's convoy.
Sent into the Lorien domain to do - what? Were they expecting Isildur with the Ring over there? :)
Besides, to get on another side it’s not the matter of two boats, it is much more complicated task, since the river Anduin is very swift and running in a deep gorge. You can get to another side only by the bridge at the Cirith Forn en Andrath and at the Undeeps, south of Lorien’s border. Even to approach the sothern shore of Gladden field would be a problem, because the eastern side of the valley was very steep.
But what it worth mentioning is that from the Gladden Fields to the realm of Lorien was stretching out the area of Silvan Elves' first settlement, which , no doubt, was controlled by Galadhrim. So it’s more likely to meet the elves over there than the orcs.
Maybe rather than being pulled by the Ring, the Orcs were being pushed by a Nazgul.
On the list of who will be NOT interested in the unity of Gondor and Arnor we did not consider one more aspect.
Among not interested also should be mentioned Umbar, Harad and Khand. They had a reason to worry about a military potential of two united kingdoms of the powerful Numenorians under the ruling of the Ring wielder. As a history has proved later , it was not unfounded worries: after conquering Harad , even without the help of Isildur with the Ring, Gondor’s dominion reached an enormous size, extending up to the sea of Rhun, and theopressed countries had to endure unbearable levies and humiliations from Gondor .
So, they had the motives for Isildur’s elimination. They had potentials too. And also they have had an information, I wouldn’t consider them as stupid and ignorant to the growing treat. Then such unusual and fierece group of Commando-orcs could be just a troop of assassins- shahids, payed off by Umbar, Harad and ect.
As for the Nazgul, I doubt they were the Nine. I was talking about the lesser wraith who might stayed nearby as an observers to make sure that the Ringbearer wouldn’t slip away in a wrong direction.

Gordis is absolutely right, a self-preservance and protection of his oun country’s interests would be the most reasonable action of any ruler. Galadriel was a very smart politician and definitely wouldn’t ignore such obvious treat for a well-being of the Elves, so the archers were already waiting for Isildur.
I also think that he just toyed with an idea to give the Ring to the Keepers, but it was up to the ring to choose the time to change the Keeper.
My scenario is that Isildur saw who was waiting for him on the western shore and took out the Ring to put it on finger in order to hide himself from those who awaits him . But he did not even had a time to put it on the finger, the Ring already sensed that he is a "goner" and “had left his hand�. (UT)
Near the shore he was being demanded to surrender the Ring, but upon realization that the Ring is gone, they just finished him. After that little incident the Lord of the United Kingdom would be too dangerous for Elve’s health even without the Ring .:(

[Gordis]

But what it worth mentioning is that from the Gladden Fields to the realm of Lorien was stretching out the area of Silvan Elves' first settlement, which , no doubt, was controlled by Galadhrim. So it’s more likely to meet the elves over there than the orcs.
I don't remember this part. Where is it from?

What was not mentioned here yet, is that the East bank was largely controlled by Thranduil's Elves. Isildur was attacked on the path leading to Thranduil's city. But given the animosity between Thranduil and the ringbearers Galadriel and Elrond, I doubt that Thranduil was in the conspiracy. Had they given him a ring it would have been another matter...:rolleyes:


Among not interested also should be mentioned Umbar, Harad and Khand. They had a reason to worry about a military potential of two united kingdoms of the powerful Numenorians under the ruling of the Ring wielder. As a history has proved later , it was not unfounded worries: after conquering Harad , even without the help of Isildur with the Ring, Gondor’s dominion reached an enormous size, extending up to the sea of Rhun, and theopressed countries had to endure unbearable levies and humiliations from Gondor .
So, they had the motives for Isildur’s elimination. They had potentials too. And also they have had an information, I wouldn’t consider them as stupid and ignorant to the growing treat. Then such unusual and fierece group of Commando-orcs could be just a troop of assassins- shahids, payed off by Umbar, Harad and ect.
I don't think there were any Haradians that far north. Firstly the orcs didn't even know of Mordor's defeat(UT). Then the Ring was a big secret known only to Sauron and the nazgul (UT). So, I don't believe the Haradians set off hunting Isildur. Likely this detachment was there during the Siege of Barad Dur, and maybe it was commanded by one of the Nine.

[Earniel]

Now... will no one but me dispute for the honor and goodness of the Elves? :( No "true believers" left out there? :p
Well, it is rather pointless in a way. The books says Elves and orcs don't like one another and that it was Orcs that shot Isildur, if others still prefer to say: no, the Elves were in league with the Orcs, or it was the Elves that done him in, then what can you argue? :p

[Gordis]

Well, it is rather pointless in a way. The books says Elves and orcs don't like one another and that it was Orcs that shot Isildur, if others still prefer to say: no, the Elves were in league with the Orcs, or it was the Elves that done him in, then what can you argue? :p

Nobody suggested Elves and Orcs were in league.:p
But Elves were the most interested to do him in - any investigation will make them prime suspects.:)

[Earniel]

Nobody suggested Elves and Orcs were in league.:p
Perhaps not specifically in this thread, but it has been stated by our resident Elven Conspiracy theorists on previous occasions. ;)

[Olmer]

I don't remember this part. Where is it from?.
Same book, same chapter, note#13, also it was metioned in a chapter about Galadriel.

I don't think there were any Haradians that far north.

Hm... If in Bree the "squint-eyed southerners" felt themselves like home, what would keep them to venture on a much close to their homeland journey?
On another hand, why not Haradrim or Numenoreans from Umbar? Even without taking in consideration Isildur's ring, they had a good reason to be distressed by a prospect of a powerful ex-Numenorean kingdom as a next-door neighbor.
Does not surprise you that the orcs, which in stature and power were less advantaged than the Numenoreans,who were usually "towering above the tallest Orcs", suddenly shown such resillience and mastery, that Dunedain of Numenor's origin couldn't overcome them, while Boromir of much lesser blood and endurance easily smote enemy 20 times outnumbered him? Doesn't it come to the mind that to get such defeat you have to fight not with midgets with short swords and spears, and with arrows, which can't penetrate the Numenorean armor, but with adversaries of the even status?
Firstly the orcs didn't even know of Mordor's defeat(UT).
Then the Ring was a big secret known only to Sauron and the nazgul (UT).

Yeah. The whole Condor, Arnor, Mirkwood, Esgaroth and Rohan knew, and only a big army of orcs, sitting right in between, knew nothing. Where they were living? In the void?
First of it, 2 000 is not 20, to feed such amount of eaters for 2 years won't be enough of chancy robberies. You need a steady supply of a different kind of provision, which they might get from Mordor or from Sauron's supporters.
So, if the flow of provision has suddenly stopped, the first natural response would be to find out the cause of such hardship, and the second - to try to provide a supplement in some other way.
As we know many of so called servants of Sauron after his defeat "became subject to the heirs of Elendil"(Sil.) at the same time keeping hatred towards the Dunedain's kingdoms, and very likely they would help to a stranded in the mountains small army of orcs.
So, in both matters there is NO way that the Orcs have been totally unaware of what is going on, and the statement that they knew nothing doesn't hold the water.
Likely this detachment was there during the Siege of Barad Dur, and maybe it was commanded by one of the Nine
It says that the Ringwraith fled far East.
I doubt that Thranduil was in the conspiracy. Had they given him a ring it would have been another matter...:rolleyes:
Too many suspects...:(:confused:
Perhaps not specifically in this thread, but it has been stated by our resident Elven Conspiracy theorists on previous occasions.
No, they were not in league. But in a kind of cooperation in some circumstances.:evil:

[CAB]

Then it would have happened by the East bank - and the Ring was found by the West Bank.
Not necessarily. What if Isildur crossed the river, then met his hunters, and was forced to flee back towards the river again.

To me, how Isildur's last moments played out is unanswerable, unless you wish to take the text at face value. There is very little evidence of what happened to Isildur after he fled. Considering that some of our evidence comes from our prime suspects, I would say all we have is: Isildur was killed (it doesn't have to be by arrows as his body wasn't found), the Ring ended up in the river (there are any number of ways this could have happened) and Isildur's sword & armor were separated from his body, ring case & crown (this could have been done by Isildur himself or his slayers, it is even possible that the ring case and crown were found separate from Isildur's body by Saruman). I wouldn't put much weight on what side of the river the Ring was found on as it could have been thrown (intentionally or unintentionally) or moved from one side of the river to the other by the water.

Though I have argued that Isildur likely removed the Ring before his death (because I think it is what any reasonable person would do in the situation and it makes it easier to explain Isildur's killing if it didn't happen as the text says), I'll admit he could have been wearing it until the end. There is too little evidence to say for certain one way or the other.



Well, it is rather pointless in a way. The books says Elves and orcs don't like one another and that it was Orcs that shot Isildur, if others still prefer to say: no, the Elves were in league with the Orcs, or it was the Elves that done him in, then what can you argue? :p
If you wish to say that things happened just as written, I can't really argue with you. There are no contradictions concerning Isildur's death elsewhere in Tolkien's writings that I am aware of. If you were to say that Tolkien's intent was that the Orcs killed him, I wouldn't argue with you; I would agree with you.

However, if you look at these writings from a historical point of view, you have to wonder what was the Elves' plan (by Elves, I am mostly referring to Galadriel and Elrond)? Would they really sit idly by while a Numenorean king was once again corrupted by Sauron? The evil of Pharazon and its repercussions were fresh in their minds. Would they wait for the Valar to take action? Certainly Galadriel and Elrond knew better than to trust to such an unlikely event.

Would they try to convince Isildur to give up the Ring willingly? But it would seem that this had already been attempted and attempted before the Ring had time to attach itself to Isildur's mind. Galadriel and Elrond knew he couldn't give up the Ring. They probably knew something about the fall of the Men who had become the Nazgul and certainly would remember that the Elves had failed to "find the strength" to destroy the rings themselves not too long before.

I would say again that Isildur was probably showing signs of what evil was to come. He told his son on the battlefield before his death that he had tried to bend the Ring to his will. Would this go unnoticed by the holders of the three rings? Would Isildur's intentions be nothing but good? He couldn't be attempting to control Sauron, since Sauron was unbodied at this time. So, attempting to control the One would probably mean attempting to control the other ringbearers, the Ring's original purpose. Also, consider the scroll that Gandalf read. In it, Isildur says the Ring is precious to him. This word wasn't chosen by accident. Tolkien was trying to show that Isildur had already begun to succumb to the Ring. I am not saying that Galadriel and Elrond would have likely seen this document, rather I am arguing that the state of mind that would lead Isildur to call the Ring precious was probably made apparent to them in other ways.

Ok, if we assume Isildur was killed just as it was written, what were the Elves' future plans concerning Isildur and the Ring? I don't think Tolkien told us, so perhaps one of our resident Elf defenders :) can give us a theory.