Did Saruman die? And what of Saruman's ring?

[The Wizard from Milan]

So we know that in the Scouring of the Shire Saruman "dies". His body goes up in smoke and the smoke turns towards Valinor, but did Saruman actually die?
We know that Gandalf's essence somehow survived the Balrog and was sent back. Did Saruman's essence also survive? (and who knows whether he would be sent back)

A separate but related point is "what happened to the ring that Saruman made?".
Sauron's ring allowed Sauron to life in spirit form in Middle Earth. Did Saruman's ring have the same power?
What powers exactly did Saruman's ring have?

[Bombadillo]

When Saruman was killed, I think it's a good bet that he stayed dead. Gandalf was sent back after Moria because he had not yet completed the task that Eru assigned to him (which was fulfilled when the Ring was destroyed). I think Saruman's task was actually to become corrupt and shift the balance of good and evil in the world for a while. Which yeah was bad but ultimately necassary to see Merry and Pippin hardened by the Uruk-hai and friends with the ents, who, not coincidentally I expect, brought about Saruman's destuction right as he reached the height of his glory. If I'm wrong about what his task was, and he'd been sent to work as a good power, Eru probably dubbed him too corrupt and unworthy to return to ME, whereas Gandalf clearly proved himself useful.

That's a guess, of course. I don't even know if Eru or Mandos would have made that decision, but it sounded good as I typed it. :p Either way I never thought about what happens to his ring.

[me9996]

So we know that in the Scouring of the Shire Saruman "dies". His body goes up in smoke and the smoke turns towards Valinor, but did Saruman actually die?
We know that Gandalf's essence somehow survived the Balrog and was sent back. Did Saruman's essence also survive? (and who knows whether he would be sent back)

A separate but related point is "what happened to the ring that Saruman made?".
Sauron's ring allowed Sauron to life in spirit form in Middle Earth. Did Saruman's ring have the same power?
What powers exactly did Saruman's ring have?
Saruman is dead.
And saruman doesn't have a ring, gandalf did but it wa a gift.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Saruamn was a Maiar, with only a part of his being invested in his physical body. The description of his deaths, with a visible eminence of his spirit being dispersed by a west (from the Valar) wind may indicate that some additional action was taken to punsih his spirit after his body's death. He very liekly be so weakened that he will be unable for long ages to assume a physical form.

[Pytt]

I thought maybe he went to the halls of Mandos, but after reading Leftys post, I'm not so sure.
I think, even if he was strong enough, that the other Valar would deny him to take a physical form. Could the Valar keep him in some sort of jail, or other to punish him, as Lefty says? this make me wonder, where do all the higher followers of Morgoth go when they are dead? Sarumann wasn't as bad, or was he?

And as Me points out, I've never heard about Sarumann having a ring before.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Saruman is dead.
And saruman doesn't have a ring, gandalf did but it wa a gift.
saruman DID have a ring, me# :rolleyes:

Saruman the white? i am no longer the white, white serves as a starting point, white cloth may be dyed, white paper may be overwritten, i am saruman of many colours, saruman ring-maker

the above is from memory, so sorry if it's slightly out

in his studies of the rings, saruman discovered the art himself, and used it to fashion rings of his own, we are not sure how many he made, or what powers they bestowed upon the wearer, but we know that he did make (a) ring(s)

[The Wizard from Milan]

To follow-up on what Chrys says.
In the LotR it says quite clearly (I think it is during the white council) that Saruman betrayed us and made his own ring

[Nurvingiel]

Saruman is dead.
And saruman doesn't have a ring, gandalf did but it wa a gift.
When Gandalf visits Saruman in FotR, doesn't he notice one on Saruman's hand? It's hinted somewhere that Saruman, who became a bit obsessed with Ring-lore, was trying to make his own ring of power.

Saruamn was a Maiar, with only a part of his being invested in his physical body. The description of his deaths, with a visible eminence of his spirit being dispersed by a west (from the Valar) wind may indicate that some additional action was taken to punsih his spirit after his body's death. He very liekly be so weakened that he will be unable for long ages to assume a physical form.
This is interesting Lefty. I guess this was the death of Saruman's physical form only. But I'm a bit confused about what would happen to his Maiar self. I doubt he would be allowed to take a physical form again. (Wouldn't the Valar have to allow it?)

This is the scene where Saruman is killed in the book: RotK p. 264-5
_____Saruman laughed, "You do what Sharkey says, always, don't you, Worm? Well, now he says: follow!" He kicked Wormtongue in the face as he grovelled, and turned and made off. But at that something snapped: suddenly Wormtongue rose up, drawing a hidden knife, and then with a snarl like a dog he sprang on Saruman's back, jerked his head back, cut his throat, and with a yell ran off down the lane. Before Frodo could recover or speak a word, three hobbit-bows twanged and Wormtongue fell dead.

_____To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure loomed over the Hill. For a moment in wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
_____Frodo looked down at the body with pity and horror, for as he looked it seemed that long years of death were suddenly revealed in it, and it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of skin upon a hideous skull. Lifting up the skirt of the dirty cloak that sprawled beside it, he covered it over, and turned away.
_____"And that's the end of that," said Sam. "A nasty end, and I wish I needn't have seen it; but it's a good riddance."
_____"And the very last of the War, I hope," said Merry.
_____"I hope so," said Frodo and sighed. "The very last stroke. But to think that it should fall here, at the very door of Bag End! Among all my hopes and fears, at least I never expected that."
_____"I shan't call it the end, till we've cleared up this mess," said Sam gloomily, "And that'll take a lot of time and work."
I think this part here:
For a moment in wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

Indicates that his spirit form died also, or at least was banished to the Void or something.

What do you guys think?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i believe that saruman was banished into the void, i also believe that was sauron's fate also, so the three attempted dark lords were banished away until the final battle, in which shall end the world, or so legend is told, melko, sauron and curunir with orcs, against valar, maiar, eagles, eldar, avari, khazad, onodrim and tom bombadil :p

[The Wizard from Milan]

i believe that saruman was banished into the void, i also believe that was sauron's fate also, so the three attempted dark lords were banished away until the final battle, in which shall end the world, or so legend is told, melko, sauron and curunir with orcs, against valar, maiar, eagles, eldar, avari, khazad, onodrim and tom bombadil :p
Now, that would be an interesting book to read :D

[Twista]

When Gandalf visits Saruman in FotR, doesn't he notice one on Saruman's hand? It's hinted somewhere that Saruman, who became a bit obsessed with Ring-lore, was trying to make his own ring of power.


Yes he did, however im sure he did reveal to Gandalf he had his own ring of power. Did he not tell him when he revealed him self as 'Saruman of Many Colours'?

Maybe I'm wrong...

[Nurvingiel]

i believe that saruman was banished into the void, i also believe that was sauron's fate also, so the three attempted dark lords were banished away until the final battle, in which shall end the world, or so legend is told, melko, sauron and curunir with orcs, against valar, maiar, eagles, eldar, avari, khazad, onodrim and tom bombadil :p
Sounds like Ragnarok (from what little I know). Is that in Letters? :confused:

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

no, but there are scattered references to 'the great battle', after which the elves will yelp yavanna, and the dwarves will help aule to rebuild arda IIRC, except that there will be no men afterwards :( for their fate is other than that of the world within :(

so, back to topic ;) Saruman describes himself as Saruman Ring-maker

[me9996]

saruman DID have a ring, me# :rolleyes:

Saruman the white? i am no longer the white, white serves as a starting point, white cloth may be dyed, white paper may be overwritten, i am saruman of many colours, saruman ring-maker

the above is from memory, so sorry if it's slightly out

in his studies of the rings, saruman discovered the art himself, and used it to fashion rings of his own, we are not sure how many he made, or what powers they bestowed upon the wearer, but we know that he did make (a) ring(s)
Eh, I think he ment he was trying to... Otherwise gandalf would have had more truble....

[mithrand1r]

Saruman is dead.
And saruman doesn't have a ring, gandalf did but it wa a gift.

From Book II Chapter II Council of Elrond
p. 251 in my version (all of LOTR in one big book)
'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.'

I think this, plus what other people said above, would indicate that Saruman was at the very least trying to make his own ring of power.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

the thing we don't know is how many he made, and what powers they bestowed, now that is something i would like to know!

[Nurvingiel]

Maybe he started small... Gandalf was right to mark that Saruman wore a ring, for it was the Ring of Toasting Grilled Cheese Sandwiches to Perfection! :eek:

I imagine that the Hobbits buried Saruman's body, wrapped it its cloak, and that the ring was buried with him. I can't really imagine the Hobbits looting someone's body. ;)

[mithrand1r]

Maybe he started small... Gandalf was right to mark that Saruman wore a ring, for it was the Ring of Toasting Grilled Cheese Sandwiches to Perfection! :eek:

I imagine that the Hobbits buried Saruman's body, wrapped it its cloak, and that the ring was buried with him. I can't really imagine the Hobbits looking someone's body. ;)

How about looting? ;)

Sounds like Saruman was on to something. When can I get my Ring of Toasting? ;) :D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

not until i get my Ring of making coffee without letting beans into the cup :mad:

:D

[me9996]

Maybe he started small... Gandalf was right to mark that Saruman wore a ring, for it was the Ring of Toasting Grilled Cheese Sandwiches to Perfection! :eek:

I imagine that the Hobbits buried Saruman's body, wrapped it its cloak, and that the ring was buried with him. I can't really imagine the Hobbits looking someone's body. ;)
Looting, right?
And (if I am corect) there wa only bone left when saruman died.

The ring of Toasting Grilled Cheese Sandwiches to Perfection?
Nice, and much more usefull than a ring of power, all that can do is take over the world...

[Lefty Scaevola]

I doubt he would be allowed to take a physical form again. (Wouldn't the Valar have to allow it?)The Ainur, both Valar and Maiar, can create a physical form for themselves in they have a sufficient reserve of creative power/energy.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Is it not true that the Maiar are all Ainur. To be a little more specific they are of the same form of Ainur as the Valar and Valier but of less stature!? It says that only the greatest iof the Valar were the Aratar. So with that understanding Saruman could take physical form without any approval from the Aratar. Am I wrong?

Anyhow when Curumo dies his physical, or Middle-Earth form dies leaving only his Valar-Maiar form behind. With this form he no doubt tries to return to Valinor but in doing so finds that the Aratar are wrathful for his greed and failure to accomplish his true goal. The Aratar send Curumo away from Valinor possibly to remain in Middle-Earth, with no power, untill the end of that world, or to another place... possibly the void.

I think also that when Curumo died in Middle-Earth he had already a weakend spirit due to his ring making. We know for fact that Curumo was attempting to create his own ring of power, so, if Sauron used part of his own essence to form the ring, would not Curumo need to do something similar?

[The Wizard from Milan]

I think also that when Curumo died in Middle-Earth he had already a weakend spirit due to his ring making. We know for fact that Curumo was attempting to create his own ring of power, so, if Sauron used part of his own essence to form the ring, would not Curumo need to do something similar?
Sure! But that is precisely why I "fear" that Saruman is not banised forever. Indeed the fact that Sauron put some of his essence in the one ring turns out to be his advantage (not disadvantage) for his immortality on Middle Earth (until the ring lasts).
So if Saruman did the same thing, there is at least a possiblity that Saruman cannot really be banished from Middle Earth until his ring is destroyed

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks for the info Lefty Scaevola. :)

And (if I am corect) there wa only bone left when saruman died.
The passage from RotK that I quoted earlier strongly suggests that his physical body remained, but lacking its spirit (which had preserved it to a point I guess) it looked much older and "touched by death" as Frodo observed. That passage tells me that only his spirit left.


Also, just because Saruman made a ring doesn't necessarily mean he was as good at it as Sauron or Celebrimbor. He was presumably self-taught, and going by old records and lore. It's really hard to teach yourself something like that, and though I'm sure he was quite adept at it, I doubt his ring would be infused with as much power as the One or the Three.

Looting, right?
I have been PWNED. But Mithrand1r beat you to it. :p

You guys were just waiting for a chance to correct my spelling weren't you. ;)

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Most likely, well more of a deffinetly, Curumo didn't have the same ring making power as Sauron but I don't think he was as self taught as you think. Curumo was a maia of Aule after all, and his life did not start on Middle-Earth as Saruman. There is no telling how long he has been "learning" from Aule! I doub't he used much of his own being to form his "ring" so I don't feel the existence of his ring would be a cause for him to linger as Sauron did. I feel instead that he was left on Middle-Earth with no form only his "Maia Spirit" to drift almost aimlessly untill the ending of this world. I think that would be quite punishment enough.

[me9996]

Sure! But that is precisely why I "fear" that Saruman is not banised forever. Indeed the fact that Sauron put some of his essence in the one ring turns out to be his advantage (not disadvantage) for his immortality on Middle Earth (until the ring lasts).
So if Saruman did the same thing, there is at least a possiblity that Saruman cannot really be banished from Middle Earth until his ring is destroyed
If that was so, tolken would have made a sequil.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Well Tolkien says himself (not sure where) that with the end of the Third age it was alos the end of evil in one domminant form. Even if TWfM is right I don't think the powers placed into the Saruman ring would have been enough to sustain him as in the Sauron One Ring case. Furthermore Sauron had a phsyical form even durring the time of the War of The Ring, it was Peter Jackson who identified Sauron with only being an eye!(which is wrong)

[Imric]

Sure! But that is precisely why I "fear" that Saruman is not banised forever. Indeed the fact that Sauron put some of his essence in the one ring turns out to be his advantage (not disadvantage) for his immortality on Middle Earth (until the ring lasts).
So if Saruman did the same thing, there is at least a possiblity that Saruman cannot really be banished from Middle Earth until his ring is destroyed

In my opinion, Saruman's ring would have been rendered powerless (charitably assuming it ever had any power to begin with) when the One Ring itself was destroyed, in exactly the same way the Three Rings (Narya, Nenya and Vilya) were stripped of all potency at that time. Recall that the Great Rings made by the Elves were partly crafted using knowledge and techniques derived from Sauron's teachings. Sauron's corruptive influence linked those rings to the fate of his own. Any ring forged by Saruman was certain to be based upon scraps and fragments of lore left over from Celebrimbor's tragic experiments, lore that was contaminated with Sauron's taint. I feel this contamination would have rendered Saruman's ring as vulnerable as the Three, and as doomed to fail at that moment when the One Ring fell into the Cracks of Doom. Hence, I don't believe there is any possibility that Saruman could ever return to Middle-earth in a new shape via the power of a ring which is now nothing more than a mere band of tainted gold.

[Forkbeard]

Doesn't Gandalf say somewhere about Sauron that he would be an impotent spirit wandering Middle Earth but incapable of doing anything significant now?
In which case, isn't that also suggestive of Saruman's spirit as well, particularly given the similarities in their "dispersal"?

[Findegil]

To the state of Saruman after his death:
I think we have to look what hapened to Gandalf when his bied after the battle with the Balrog: He came into the presence of Iluvatar. If we take this together with the statment that it was part of the restrictions of the Istari that they came to Middle-Earth as Men, I conclude that this was exactly what happened to any of the Istari if their physical body was distroied: Thier spirit left Eä and was brought before Eru. What happened to them afterwards was surely in the hand of Eru. Gandalf was send back, clerly not to further the destruction of the Ring, this he had already set in motion and what help was needed was provided by Eru himself in the Sammarth Iaur. Gandalf was sent back to rescue the western zivilisation which otherwise would have been swept out.
No such task would be obvious for Saruman, so I don't think that Eru would sent him back.

To the discussion of Sarumans Ring:
Tolkien makes it clear in the forword to the Lor of the Rings that Saruman did not discover Saurons secrets in ringmaking. Thus if he was succesfull at all with his ringmaking (other than froming a band of metal fitting on his finger, which ability he surely had) than he must have depended of the lore of the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdan which he studied so long. So I am with Imric here. If he used the same technipue his Ring would have the same "defects": It would have been dominated by the One, if the One was used for that purpose, and it was riped of all its powers when the One was destroied.
But we can alos not be sure that Saruman was succesfull with his ringmaking. He was a liar and it might be that he was only trying to impress Gandalf.

Respectfully
Findegil

[me9996]

To the state of Saruman after his death:
I think we have to look what hapened to Gandalf when his bied after the battle with the Balrog: He came into the presence of Iluvatar. If we take this together with the statment that it was part of the restrictions of the Istari that they came to Middle-Earth as Men, I conclude that this was exactly what happened to any of the Istari if their physical body was distroied: Thier spirit left Eä and was brought before Eru. What happened to them afterwards was surely in the hand of Eru. Gandalf was send back, clerly not to further the destruction of the Ring, this he had already set in motion and what help was needed was provided by Eru himself in the Sammarth Iaur. Gandalf was sent back to rescue the western zivilisation which otherwise would have been swept out.
No such task would be obvious for Saruman, so I don't think that Eru would sent him back.

To the discussion of Sarumans Ring:
Tolkien makes it clear in the forword to the Lor of the Rings that Saruman did not discover Saurons secrets in ringmaking. Thus if he was succesfull at all with his ringmaking (other than froming a band of metal fitting on his finger, which ability he surely had) than he must have depended of the lore of the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdan which he studied so long. So I am with Imric here. If he used the same technipue his Ring would have the same "defects": It would have been dominated by the One, if the One was used for that purpose, and it was riped of all its powers when the One was destroied.
But we can alos not be sure that Saruman was succesfull with his ringmaking. He was a liar and it might be that he was only trying to impress Gandalf.

Respectfully
Findegil
Okay, time to close the tread :( good-bye!

[Nurvingiel]

Lol Me9996. :D Though Findegil's post was very impressive (nice one Fin :) ), there is still room for discussion.

I think there's still a bit of ambiguity around what would become of Saruman's spirit. I agree that he wouldn't be sent back to Middle-earth, but would he be punished? Rest in the halls of Mandos?

Also, would he be able to recover after a few thousand years and again take a physical form, like Sauron did?

Finally, slightly OT, but who is Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdan? I thought someone said earlier he studied under Aulë. (Or does he also have two names, as many residents of Arda seem to.)

[The Gaffer]

The Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdan were a group of elves, possibly the Eregion ones who made the Rings, but can't remember exactly.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

I believed it was along the same lines as a sort of a guild, a guild of ringmakers, if you will

[Earniel]

Also, would he be able to recover after a few thousand years and again take a physical form, like Sauron did?
In my opinion: no. I think that the Istari are a different class of Maiar, more bound to their flesh and so not able to reform (either change or recreate) their own physical form. At least, not by themselves. Hence their unchanging appearance as old men.

For Gandalf it required going west and be given a new form by Iluvátar or the Valar (I forget which), Saruman was obviously denied that option seen the cold western wind blew him apart.

[Olmer]

In my opinion, Saruman's ring would have been rendered powerless (charitably assuming it ever had any power to begin with) when the One Ring itself was destroyed, in exactly the same way the Three Rings (Narya, Nenya and Vilya) were stripped of all potency at that time.
Agree on it. Especially if you take in consideration Radagast's words that while looking for the One, Saruman supposedly acquired one of the dwarve's Rings of Power " the last of the 19 rings he had"..(HOME.Treason of Isengard.)
I think it was just a proud boasting about making the Ring in front of the Grey Wizard.

[Earniel]

I think it was just a proud boasting about making the Ring in front of the Grey Wizard.
I wouldn't put it passed him, especially considering Saruman's arrogant behaviour towards Gandalf's use of tobacco, while he himself secretly ordered tonnes of the stuff from the Shire. He's one sneaky fellow, that Saruman.

[me9996]

He's dead! We can't say otherwise... :D

[Jon S.]

Saruman's not dead - he's resting.

;)

http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/monty-python-parrot.html

[me9996]

Saruman's not dead - he's resting.

;)

http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/monty-python-parrot.html
Fine... :D

[Nurvingiel]

You guys make a good point about Saruman. He does seem to be a bit of a hypocrite (as Eärniel pointed out about smoking). I wouldn't put it past him to be boasting about that, but it certainly is possible that he could have made a ring of small power at least.

Look, matey, I know a dead Istari when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

Hm... where's the Monty Python meets LotR thread..? :D

[me9996]

You guys make a good point about Saruman. He does seem to be a bit of a hypocrite (as Eärniel pointed out about smoking). I wouldn't put it past him to be boasting about that, but it certainly is possible that he could have made a ring of small power at least.

Look, matey, I know a dead Istari when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

Hm... where's the Monty Python meets LotR thread..? :D
Like I said, this thread has proven it's point... maybe it'll go into the arcives. :o

[CrazySquirrel]

I think Saruman used his ring to act through Grima (transmit the power of his persuation) and to control orcs. Maybe Grima had a lesser Saruman-made ring that was overlooked.
Now that I think on it, Saruman's ring may have lost all the power together with the One, that's why Grima became free and killed Saruman. Or perhaps I am just influenced by Gordis's nazgul-freedom tread :confused:

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

no, it was potions and minor incantations that grima used, ie: the whisperings of grima.
maybe saruman used a ring to control grima, but not to act through him, IMHO

[CrazySquirrel]

Does one really need a ring to control one such as Grima?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

oh yes, IMHO grima was an extremely rebellious character, as was shown whengandalf/hobbits/elrond/galadriel/celeborn encountered him and saruman on way home, it was shown that dissent was already growing within him, and of course grima turns completely and kills saruman in the scouring.

[CrazySquirrel]

I think Grima could not have betrayed Saruman if he were ring-controlled

I have just read the "Hunt for the ring" in Unf.tales, and there it is written that in Sept 3018 Grima encountered the nazgul after their talk with Saruman. Grima betrayed his master and the WitchKing let him live, because "he percieved that the creature was evil and would make yet more harm to Saruman in the future".
By the way, I wonder, was it a prophesy?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

most likely, yes, the witchking was, IIRC one of the nazgul descended from black numenoreans, and the people of numenor had a deal of foresight, altho i cant remember which nazgul were descended from easterlings, except Khamul, the Terror of the East, IIRC there were 3 that were black numenoreans before their fall

[CrazySquirrel]

I have always thought the Wikkie was a king of Numenor therefore Isildur's and Aragorn's relative. But I don't remember where I read it

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

no not a king of numenor, but a king of perhaps Umbar, but of numenorean descent. IIRC

[CrazySquirrel]

But i think he was of the same line as the kings
Faramir says "Lords of Numenor" doesn't it mean of the line of Elros?

I mean Witchy was a sorcerer, Isildur was also (hasn't he cursed a whole people to wander as spirits), Malbeth the seer was probably kings relative, Aragorn makes prophesy about Gandalf falling in Moria. Wasn't it in the family? Elven-maiar blood?

[Olmer]

I have always thought the Wikkie was a king of Numenor therefore Isildur's and Aragorn's relative. But I don't remember where I read it
Amazing! Without giving too much thought you picked up exact concept, that the Witch-King had more right for Gondor's and Arnor's thrones, than any of Elendil's descendants! In this way his war with Arnor has had more personal reasons .
I found strange discrepancies in the data of some Numenorian Kings. Unfortunately, never had enough time to work on it. :(

[Gordis]

But i think he was of the same line as the kings
Faramir says "Lords of Numenor" doesn't it mean of the line of Elros?
I mean Witchy was a sorcerer, Isildur was also (hasn't he cursed a whole people to wander as spirits), Malbeth the seer was probably kings relative, Aragorn makes prophesy about Gandalf falling in Moria. Wasn't it in the family? Elven-maiar blood?
I think it is a very good argument.
Really sorcerors ot prophets were rare among Men, and all the known cases belong, or are likely to belong, to the same line with maia and elven blood.

[Gordis]

Amazing! Without giving too much thought you picked up exact concept, that the Witch-King had more right for Gondor's and Arnor's thrones, than any of Elendil's descendants! In this way his war with Arnor has had more personal reasons .
I found strange discrepancies in the data of some Numenorian Kings. Unfortunately, never had enough time to work on it. :(
Could you elaborate a little, perhaps in a new tread?
But I don't think that even a king of Numenor had any rights to the thrones of the realms founded by Elendil. Their decendants have, not their ancestors. Or so I believe (actually the case is weird, as in real life one can hardly see Charlemagne disputing the throne of Louis XIV)