The Shibboleth of Fëanor

[Rían]

I did a search and didn't see a thread on this.

I absolutely ADORED this work! It's in HoME 12, The Peoples of Middle Earth (POME). It's filled with all the stuff I like - linguistic history, looks into the lives of first-age elves, history and derivation of names, complete with translation styles into other languages, and a fascinating account of a mysterious little incident with Fëanor's youngest son.

And a hilarious comment about someone's hair!

I really disliked Fëanor - I was angry with what I thought were foolish and selfish decisions - but this work gave me a huge amount of understanding and insight and compassion for him - and then turns around and drops that little Umbarto gem on us!

Who else likes this work? I was thinking about it again recently because El just ordered POME and a bunch of pages were missing - right in the Shibboleth!! :eek: :mad:

[Kirinki54]

I really like it! For all your reasons and more...

One thing is that hidden link between LotR and the old mythology. Fëanor begged thrice for a tress of Galadriel´s hair but was rejected. Gimli asked once for one hair - and was given three. Sort of wraps up things nicely... :)

[Elemmírë]

This is the very first Shibboleth thread...? :eek:


Who else likes this work? I was thinking about it again recently because El just ordered POME and a bunch of pages were missing - right in the Shibboleth!! :eek: :mad:

Luckily, it was just the first ten or so pages missing. Annoying, yes, but at least I've read some of it. Unfortunately, there's been no contact from Barnes & Nobles... so I have no idea when they're sending a new copy... :(

I loved what I did read of it. :)

I'll certainly keep up with the thread, RÃ*an, but I don't have access to the story at the moment... You're going to have to brief me on what your discussing! :p :o :(

[Rían]

I really like it! For all your reasons and more...

One thing is that hidden link between LotR and the old mythology. Fëanor begged thrice for a tress of Galadriel´s hair but was rejected. Gimli asked once for one hair - and was given three. Sort of wraps up things nicely... :)I LOVE that little bit!!

For me, it created such a poignant picture of Fëanor's heartbreak over his mother, and how miscommunications piled up to the exploding point (for example, thinking Indis was dropping the Þ sound to insult his mother, when she was only doing it to show honor to her new husband). Indis was a Vanya, and it might be thought that she would in this point at least have pleased Fëanor, since the Vanyar adhered to Þ. Nonetheless Indis adopted s. Not as Fëanor believed in belittlement of Miriel, but in loyalty to Finwë.


El - maybe I had my search parameters to only this year ... but I don't think there was a recent thread on the Shibboleth anyway.

[Elemmírë]

The Shibboleth definitely cements my impression of Fëanor:

arrogant, selfish idiot.

I love all the names that show up...I've got quite a taste for Quenya. ;) It's somewhat neat how Nerdanel finally gave the name "Umbarto" for one of the twins... Goes with the whole idea of predestination, methinks. She seems to have been quite the prophetess.

[Falagar]

I love the Shibboleth, used to have quotes from it in my sig..."Fell and fey you have become"...
arrogant, selfish idiot.
Hey, Fëanor was very interested in politics! :p:D
She seems to have been quite the prophetess.
All elvish mothers had some insight in what would become of their child, the mother's name usually reflects this (it was MÃ*riel who named Fëanor 'Fire-spirit', for example).

[Rían]

It is just SO Professor Tolkien to "hunt down" the backstory behind a linguistic change and dig up the "true" reasons behind it - really fun!

I love how the first three paragraphs are the "detective work" behind the change from s to Þ - things like noting the Ñoldor lived between the Vanyar and the Teleri in Valinor, and thus could not be unfamiliar with the sound. Then he says, "The change Þ to s must therefore have been a conscious and deliberate change agreed to and accepted by a majority of the Ñoldor, however initiated, after the separation of their dwellings from the Vanyar." I love how he himself is immersed into his secondary reality world!

I also love how he describes how the change started, but was "attacked by the loremasters, who pointed out that the damage this merging would do in confusing stems and their derivatives that had been distinct in sound and sense had not yet been sufficiently considered." I just picture these Elvish loremasters having a violent committee meeting about this and it makes me smile :)

It's also interesting that the chief linguistic loremaster was - guess who - Fëanor! Which starts to hint at the reason why the change was made ...

[Rían]

(SGH, your Shibboleth is caaaaallllllling you.....)

[Rían]

And more ...

so after the description of the loremasters' discussion, it says this : The chief of the linguistic loremasters at that time was Fëanor. He insisted that Þ was the true pronunciation for all who cared for or fully understood their language. But in addition to liguistic taste and wisdom he had other motives.

That last sentence is so great - you can just hear the ominous music ...

And Fëanor's objections are so typical of him - "you don't care for our language, and/or don't even understand it, if you don't like the Þ!" :rolleyes:

Then the essay gets into the story of Finwë, MÃ*riel and Indis ...

Interesting description of Fëanor's actions after MÃ*riel's death : During the time of his sorrow Finwë had little comfort from Fëanor. For a while he also had kept vigil by his mother's body, but soon he became wholly absorbed again in his own works and devices.I can just picture Fëanor by his mother - concentrating on her at first, then maybe coming but bringing a book or something, then missing a day here and there, then back into his own world of himself! It's natural to have grief lessen, but it just seems that in Fëanor's case, it was lessened by self-absorption. It's interesting how it was also said that : it is not recorded that he attended the Debate [on Finwë and Indis' marriage because of MÃ*riel's choice to die] or paid heed to the reasons given for the judgement, or to its terms except in one point: that MÃ*riel was condemned to remain for ever discarnate, so that he could never again visit her or speak with her, unless he himself should die.Of course this would make him sad, but again, he seems to never want to see the whole picture, only the part that is about HIMSELF.

[Elemmírë]

That last sentence is so great - you can just hear the ominous music ...

And Fëanor's objections are so typical of him - "you don't care for our language, and/or don't even understand it, if you don't like the Þ!" :rolleyes:


Seeing as how that was the part of my book that was missing :mad:, why exactly did Fëanor think that the Þ was the proper pronunciation?

[Rían]

[snooty Fëanor voice]Well, it's obvious that if you TRULY cared about and understood the language, you would KNOW! [/snooty Fëanor voice] ;)

It doesn't say - it just says, How this ill will grew and festered in the years that followed is the main matter of the first part of The Silmarillion: the Darkening of Valinor. Into the strife and confusion of loyalties in that time this seemingly trivial matter, the change of Þ to s, was caught up to its embitterment, and to lasting detriment to the Quenya tongue. Had peace been maintained there can be no doubt that the advice of Fëanor, with which all the other loremasters privately or openly agreed, would have prevailed. But an opinion in which he was certainly right was rejected because of the follies and evil deeds into which he was later led. He made it a personal matter: he and his sons adhered to Þ, and they demanded that all those who were sincere in their support should do the same. Therefore those who resented his arrogance, and still more those whose support later turned to hatred, rejected his shibboleth.
Interesting that JRRT was so emphatic that Fëanor's opinion was right!

I also like this little note on Finarfin - Her [Galadriel's] father Finarfin, however, loved the Vanyar (his mother's people) and the Teleri, and in his house Þ was used, Finarfin being moved by Fëanor neither one way or the other but doing as he wished.

[Elemmírë]

[snooty Fëanor voice]Well, it's obvious that if you TRULY cared about and understood the language, you would KNOW! [/snooty Fëanor voice] ;)

It doesn't say - it just says,
Interesting that JRRT was so emphatic that Fëanor's opinion was right!

As much as I hate Fëanor, I have to admit that he is surely an intriguing character. I know in what I did read in PoMe (I think it was in the Shibboleth) he was noted as one of the greatest linguists, if not the greatest in truth. Interesting how the greatest is also the worst. I love the symmetry. :)

I also like this little note on Finarfin -

That definitely fits with his character, not to allow Fëanor to affect him either way... I'm assuming that Fingolfin refused to switch to the þ?

[Rían]

As much as I hate Fëanor, I have to admit that he is surely an intriguing character. I agree!

That definitely fits with his character, not to allow Fëanor to affect him either way... I'm assuming that Fingolfin refused to switch to the þ?Yuppers!

Anyone heard any Castillains (from Spain) speak? They use the þ. I assume Fat Middle has heard them. My sister-in-law from Spain imitates them sometimes.

[Falagar]

You don't know how much it means to me to hear you say that. ;)

I'm taking spanish-classes (not heard many natives yet though), it's my impression that the þ is becoming less used in Spain (though still strong many other spanish-speaking countries)

[Rían]

Gee, I was hoping more people liked the Shibboleth ... :(

this thread isn't exactly taking off!

[Elemmírë]

You don't know how much it means to me to hear you say that. ;)

I bet... I'll correct myself. He's an intriguing idiot. :p

Gee, I was hoping more people liked the Shibboleth ... :(

this thread isn't exactly taking off!

As soon as I get my book back... :mad: :( ;)

[Artanis]

Interesting description of Fëanor's actions after MÃ*riel's death : I can just picture Fëanor by his mother - concentrating on her at first, then maybe coming but bringing a book or something, then missing a day here and there, then back into his own world of himself! It's natural to have grief lessen, but it just seems that in Fëanor's case, it was lessened by self-absorption.That is not how I pictured Fëanor at all when I read this. I saw him as overwhelmed with a grief so great that it was almost unbearable, and I saw him trying to lessen his sorrows by delving into his work. I think his dedication to his work was a way to cope with the fact that she would not come back. He had no one to comfort him, Finwë was of little help, being immensed in his own sorrow at first and then occupied with his new love. Who else than Fëanor himself in Valinor could understand the feeling of the loss of a mother?
Gee, I was hoping more people liked the Shibboleth ... I don't think that many people here have actually read the Shibboleth RÃ*an. I just saw this thread - I don't visit as often as before. But I like the Shibboleth, the story of Finwë and MÃ*riel is interesting because it shows that even in Valinor everything was not blissful, and even high and respected Elf Lords as Finwë had faults. Also, the debate between the Valar is definately a good read, and illustrates their different personalities. I also find the descriptions that is given of all of Finwë's descendants very valuable, their names and their characteristics and so on.

I'd like to ask a question to everyone. Do you think the Valar did right when they let Finwë marry Indis?

[Rían]

Wow, that's a tough question ... Tolkien, thru many of his characters, put forth opinions supporting both sides!

I'll have to think a bit more, but I think I might remain undecided! What do you think, Arty?

[Elemmírë]

I'd like to ask a question to everyone. Do you think the Valar did right when they let Finwë marry Indis?

That's kind of like the question concerning whether or not the Valar were right to bring the Eldar to Aman. Personally, I think it's one of those situations where no one choice is "right" and the other "wrong."

In this case, IMO, allowing Finwë to remarry was the less "wrong" choice. It is hard to say what would have happened had the descendants of Indis never lived; perhaps Fëanor would not have been as susceptible to the jealousy and rage that later conquered him completely.

Still, it depends on what you consider good. I don't think it can be considered completely bad that the children and grandchildren of Indis existed.

It's one of those decisions that has both good and bad consequences, that's as far as I can take it.

I have a question now:

Fëanor considered the old "þ" to be more correct than the "s". Technically speaking, yes, the "þ" was the more accurate way of speaking. However, in reality is it actually more correct? Is something right because it has history, or because it is presently in use?

Should everyone who speaks English switch back to "thou" and "thee" because it's the more accurate way of using the singular form? (I'm sure Chrys wouldn't mind. :p)

[Rían]

I got the feeling that it was more of an artistic judgement that the þ was correct for the language. Further on in the Shibboleth, it states something like the Noldor wouldn't use their Quenya names in Sindarin country because it was artistically jarring, in a sense, so they converted their names.

[Artanis]

I'll have to think a bit more, but I think I might remain undecided! What do you think, Arty?I think the Valar made a wrong decision. They erred because they could not face MÃ*riel's willed 'suicide' by her lack of endurance, and the unhappiness of Finwë thereof in Aman. It was not in accordance with the blissful world they wanted. But I think they should have realised that even in Aman there were elements of Arda Marred, and that they could not completely escape its effects.

I also think it was inconsiderate against MÃ*riel not to allow her to return to her body, even if it was with her consent. That was just like a little trick so that Finwë could be able to set the law aside and remarry.

There is imo an open question whether Finwë really loved Indis like he loved MÃ*riel, or if he was just obsessed by his desire of having more children and she was conveniently there with love for him.

ElemmÃ*rë, I think that we cannot jugde whether an action was morally right or wrong by considering the actual consequences of the action in retrospect. We may only take into consideration the facts that were known at the time of the action.

[Artanis]

Fëanor considered the old "þ" to be more correct than the "s". Technically speaking, yes, the "þ" was the more accurate way of speaking. However, in reality is it actually more correct? Is something right because it has history, or because it is presently in use?I agree with RÃ*an, the Noldorin loremasters did not hold to þ because it was more 'correct', but because the use of it made the language more beautiful and consistent. It was all about aestethics to begin with, before Fëanor turned it into a familty feud.

[Rían]

It's such a tough call, because MÃ*riel's actions affected other people ... (reminds me of a recent talk I had with our oldest son ... :D ) If someone's choices harm someone else, then is it right to give that someone else some options to relieve the harm? Tough ... and I like how JRRT doesn't answer it!

I like how the Valar are split on this - very imaginative and "realistic" of JRRT!

What book was that in - something like "The debate of Finwë and MÃ*riel" ...

*goes to look it up*

[Rían]

Ah, Morgoth's Ring ...

OK, Arty, the Valar said that it had to be mutually agreed upon ...

But since it is not to be thought that the living shall, by his or her will alone, confine the spirit of the other to Mandos, this disunion shall come to pass only the the consent of both. And after the giving of the consent ten years of the Valar shall pass ere Mandos confirms it. Within that time either party may revoke this consent; but when Mandos has confirmed it, and the living spouse has wedded another, it shall be irrevocable until the end of Arda.
Seems pretty reasonable to me - what do you think?

[Artanis]

OK, Arty, the Valar said that it had to be mutually agreed upon ...I know, that's why I said:
think it was inconsiderate against MÃ*riel not to allow her to return to her body, even if it was with her consent.It was a double error of the Valar, not only were they breaking the laws and let Finwë remarry, but they also set a doom upon MÃ*riel. It was an exception, and I think it was wrong because the separation of the spirit and the body was not the natural state for an Elf. The Valar for MÃ*riel's sake should have left an option for her to return to her body. IIRC when she later actually did regret her choice and wanted to return, the Valar made another exception in an effort to redress the first exception: They allowed her to return to her body even if Finwë was married to Indis, because Finwë was now dead.

[Rían]

Life isn't easy, is it?!

It's a tough call between restricting an individual's freedom (MÃ*riel) and trying to reduce damage caused by an individual's decision (MÃ*riel's decision to not return to her body hurt her son and her husband). To me, it was a correct decision, because they obtained MÃ*riel's consent, in a STRONGLY definite manner, and there was that 10-year waiting period (10 VALAR years!). I'm a strong believer in consequences of choices.

Now IMO, the best solution would have been for Finwë to NOT remarry. But one must be realistic. It's certainly the best solution for me to never get frustrated with the kids - but I do. I think it would have been the best solution for Finwë to "suck it up" and enjoy his amazing son, but he didn't - and since the natural state of elves is to be married, one can't blame him very much.

What's the "scorecard" on the issue, if you have time? (I'll get to it in the next day or two if you don't). IOW, which Vala on which side? IIRC, the ones I liked best were on the side of Finwë not remarrying, but that it was allowable and understandable.

[Artanis]

It's a tough call between restricting an individual's freedom (MÃ*riel) and trying to reduce damage caused by an individual's decision (MÃ*riel's decision to not return to her body hurt her son and her husband). To me, it was a correct decision, because they obtained MÃ*riel's consent, in a STRONGLY definite manner, and there was that 10-year waiting period (10 VALAR years!). I'm a strong believer in consequences of choices.Not sure if I understand you right here, but if you're saying that the ban upon MÃ*riel to not return to her body was a consequence of her choice, then I disagree with you. I see it as a consequence of Finwë's choice to marry Indis. Let me rephrase a sentence from my previous post to make my position more clear:
"...not only were they breaking the laws and let Finwë remarry, but in doing so they also set a doom upon MÃ*riel."
I think it would have been the best solution for Finwë to "suck it up" and enjoy his amazing son, but he didn't - and since the natural state of elves is to be married, one can't blame him very much.True, and I don't really blame Finwë - how could I, I don't even blame Fëanor :D - his (Finwë) situation was difficult and I can very well understand his feelings and why he acted like he did, but that doesn't keep me from thinking that he was selfish and did wrong.
What's the "scorecard" on the issue, if you have time? (I'll get to it in the next day or two if you don't). IOW, which Vala on which side? IIRC, the ones I liked best were on the side of Finwë not remarrying, but that it was allowable and understandable.Don't remember, IIRC the majority were pro Finwë remarrying. But it's a long time since I read that part of Morgoth's Ring, so I may be completely wrong.

[Rían]

Not sure if I understand you right here, but if you're saying that the ban upon MÃ*riel to not return to her body was a consequence of her choice, then I disagree with you. I see it as a consequence of Finwë's choice to marry Indis.
But let me quote from JRRT - It is said that MÃ*riel answered Mandos saying: 'I came hither to escape from the body, and I do not desire ever to return to it'...
I agree that it's a consequence of Finwë's choice to marry Indis, but I think it's MORE a consequence of MÃ*riel's words, because if she said something as definite as that, she needs to stick to it, since it affects others, and she had 10 years to change her mind.

[Rían]

hroom hroom ... *flips thru some pages*

This is interesting - Finwë's speech to Manwë:
Lord, behold! I am bereaved; and alone among the Eldar I am without a wife, and must hope for no sons save one, and no daughter. Whereas Ingwë and Olwë beget many children in the bliss of Aman. Must I remain ever so? For I deem that MÃ*riel will not return again ever from the house of Vairë.

Coupla points of interest -

1. Really, now, Finwë - father of the greatest guy in Aman, and you're whining?! Buck up! (but I wonder how early Fëanáro's greatness was apparent? It looks like he was highly skilled by the time of MÃ*riel's death.)

2. I like how he wants daughters, too :)

3. Comparing himself to Ingwë and Olwë - I dunno, just seems a little childish. But OTOH, he must have felt terribly singled out and devastated by this tragic and totally unique situation.


also, ...not only were they breaking the laws and let Finwë remarry...but IMHO they were NOT "breaking the laws" - the book explicitly says it was done "by the right of lawgiving that Ilúvatar committed to Manwë...".


EDIT - whoops, just realized I got OT from the Shibboleth - but this is very related, as it is pretty much the source of Fëanáro's general angstiness.

[Valandil]

Now IMO, the best solution would have been for Finwë to NOT remarry...

But then there would have been... no Finrod... NO ARTANIS!! :eek:

[Rían]

No Arty?!?!

*reconsiders*

*buys a wedding present for Finwë and Indis*

:D

[Artanis]

But then there would have been... no Finrod... NO ARTANIS!! :eek:Clearly a very good point! :p
but IMHO they were NOT "breaking the laws" - the book explicitly says it was done "by the right of lawgiving that Ilúvatar committed to Manwë...".OK, I agree that it is wrong to say 'breaking the law', but I think they should not have remade the law. :) They erred in this situation imo, for even if they are angelic beings and have the right to give laws, they are as we know not without faults.

[Rían]

I think they tried hard and did their best with a difficult situation, tho.

[Rían]

I don't see it as the law being 'remade'; I see it as the law being adapted/extended to cover a new situation.

For example, look at the law about stopping at red lights for cars. This was a good law, sufficient for all situations, until a person got hurt and needed to get to a hospital quickly, and the law was extended/adapted to cover a new situation - ambulences may go thru red lights. Laws should be for the best possible good for everyone.

[Artanis]

Sometimes the best possible good comes from accepting that there are sorrow and grief in the world. My point is that, whether you call it adapted, extended, remade, or broke the law, I think the Valar should have realised that even in Aman everything was not supposed to be perfect.
Really, now, Finwë - father of the greatest guy in Aman, and you're whining?!:D
Finwë was probably not the only 'single' Elf in Aman either, there were others that happened to be in love with someone who was already married or could not give love in return, and therefore had no children at all. Finwë wasn't that special. His firstborn son otoh ....

[Rían]

Sometimes the best possible good comes from accepting that there are sorrow and grief in the world. I agree.

[Rían]

Whew, a whole page of Finwë and MÃ*riel ... well, it's certainly a big part of the backstory of the Shibboleth! (as well as being discussed in the Shibboleth itself)

Anyway, back to the Shibboleth proper...

An interesting thing about the whole Þ discussion, and the discussion about how the Noldor "Sindarized" their names to be acoustically pleasing and to "jive" with the culture they had moved to, is it explained how Thingol got his name. I always wondered how "Thingol" came about from "Sindikollo", but if you say "Sindikollo" with the Þ sound, you can see how it happened!

[Rían]

And MÃ*riel is called MÃ*riel Serindë - but in the Shibboleth, she's called MÃ*riel Þerindë.

Interesting! (at least to a language-lover like me!)

So does anyone understand Fëanor's little line to his kids when they asked him about the difference in speech? So Fëanor would call himself 'Son of the Þerindë', and when his sons in their childhood asked why their kin in the house of Finwë used s for Þ he answered: 'Take no heed! We speak as is right, and as King Finwë himself did before he was led astray. We are his heirs by right and the elder house. Let them sá-sÃ*, if they can speak no better.'

So what does sá-sÃ* mean?

(pretty insulting thing to say about Finwë, too! :eek: )

[Rían]

(Arty, hurry back from vacation!)

[me9996]

Shouldn't this to in the "Slim" forum?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Shouldn't this to in the "Slim" forum?No. This is the correct forum. This work is not part of the Silmarillion. This work is found in the Histories of Middle-earth series, volume 12, The People of Middle-earth.

[Rían]

...the "Slim" forum...

Altho it is rather "Slim" :D (only about 35 pages or so, including appendicies)


SGH, the Shibboleth is callllling you....

[Sister Golden Hair]

SGH, the Shibboleth is callllling you....I know. I was sitting here and I heard an erie voice coming from the bookshelf above the computer. I think it was Feanor! :eek: Scarey

[Rían]

(keep an eye out for ships and smoke!! :eek: ;) )

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i haven't been in here before for one reason, i have never read the shibboleth, but i like to read threads on topics i am alien to due to my thirst for knowledge, so reading through i come to this little jewel:
Should everyone who speaks English switch back to "thou" and "thee" because it's the more accurate way of using the singular form? (I'm sure Chrys wouldn't mind.that is a hard question, but in preferring much the usage of the elder form of the english mode do i take delight, it is much to the knowledge of many that this is a habit of mine and thou'st should take heed that should the premiership and governance pass to me, then shalt this be the mode? that it shall!
Thou shalt take heed! The Chrys hath spoken!

[Rían]

My favorite version of the Bible is the New American Standard version, which uses "thou" and "thee" in the language of prayer and in the Psalms. I like the usage of "thou" and "thee", and as I said before, I don't change them when I read the old fairy tales to my kids. They're totally used to it now,along with words like "canst" and "doest" and suchlike.

[Rían]

*bump for BB*