The Lord of the Rings Discussion Project: Book III Ch. III - The Uruk-Hai

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Book III Chapter III ‘The Uruk-Hai’

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/chrysdawson/rohanmerryandpippin.jpg

Here we have another chapter that starts with a dream, in this instance, Pippin has been dreaming of himself in dark tunnels, calling Frodo’s name, but finding only Orc faces staring, and grinning, back at him.
This chapter tells the story of Merry & Pippin’s encapture at the hands of the Uruks, we are introduced to the nature of the orcs, and their in-squabbling between the various ‘tribes’; those of the Northerners, Isengarders and those from Mordor. Ultimately, it is the Isengarders who win through, and prove the strongest of the three groups. The chapter tells of the hobbits’ escape, at the hands of an unwitting Grishnákh, and ends with the Riders of Rohan riding over the orcs, and destroying them.
It is quite a fast-paced chapter, taking a lot of time in a relatively short amount of pages.

Speakers in this chapter:
- Uglúk
- Merry
- Pippin
- Grishnákh
- Various other orcs, including a scout

Discussion Points:
1. What is the significance, if any, of Pippin’s dream?
2. Did Grishnákh really have any idea that the ring was borne by a hobbit?
3. And did he really think he would find it on Merry or Pippin?
4. What is the significance of the varying ‘tribes’ of orcs?
5. Why did Grishnákh reveal that a Winged Nâzgul awaited the orcs on the Eastern side of Anduin?
6. Was it a wise decision to plunge into Fangorn?
7. Would the riders have waited till dawn to attack if Mauhúr’s group had not arrived?
8. When about to plunge into Fangorn, the hobbits see Uglúk charging up the slope. Did he see the hobbits, or was he madly running for his life?

[The Gaffer]

This is one of my favourite chapters, particularly as it gives an insight into orc culture.

I don't think Grishnákh knew that the ring was a ring, though he clearly knew the hobbits carried something precious (he recognises the term) which was needed by Lugburz. Similarly, Ugluk seemed to know what was going on, and that Grishnákh might be considered to know more than was good for him.

The rivalry and tensions between the two groups are very interesting, particularly how Grishnákh manages to undermine the stronger Ugluk while keeping his own head. It seems that Sauron uses the personal ambitions of his spies to keep each other in check.

Perhaps another discussion point is the orcs' "first aid". They clearly have some remedies which are similar to those used by elves. Merry gets a taste of some foul stuff which helps him to run for a while; a mockery of miruvor perhaps? Is this a sign that JRRT was, at this stage, still thinking of orcs as being created from corrupted elves rather than, as he later decided, from men?

[Valandil]

Sorry Chrys - missed that you posted this at first. :o Thought it'd be up the 19th, but this is fine. :)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Thanks Gaffer, hope you don't mind if I lift your two points :D


Discussion Points (Cont.)

9a) Merry gets a taste of some foul stuff which helps him to run for a while; a mockery of miruvor perhaps?
9b) Is this a sign that JRRT was, at this stage, still thinking of orcs as being created from corrupted elves rather than, as he later decided, from men?
10) What sense of culture, or lack thereof, can we perceive in the orcs, from this chapter?

yep, val, had to put it up early, as I wasn't sure if I would be able to otherwise, we are painting the living room at my house this week!!

[Nurvingiel]

I really like this chapter too, sorry for my recent lull in participation.

I think the orcs do have a culture - it's just not necessarily one that would lead to a long life. We never do see much of orcs besides them fighting, being rude to each other in entertaining ways, or getting killed by the good guys. Though crude, the orc medecine does work.

I found myself sympathizing with Ugluk in this chapter. I never liked Grishnakh. (Maybe it was the description of the arms. Very creepy.)

I don't think Pippin's dream has any significance other than to show the impact getting captured by orcs would have on him and Merry.

This chapter gives us the first real insight into Pippin's resourcefulness (being clever and brave with the fallen orc's knife, and the rope "bracelets") and Merry's bravery (his hacking some orc arms in the battle, then having to take the orc medicine).

I think plunging into Fangorn was wise - given what they knew. It turns out a lot of the local knowledge of Fangorn was false anyway (it's not evil, it's just well-defended). It was an action born of desperation and fear of the orcs or getting accidentally trampled by the Riders, which led them to being the catalyst for the Ents' action.

Without this, Helm's Deep might have gone a lot worse. Or at least, there would have been a difficult amount of escapees, as opposed to none. Plus, Saruman would have continued to harass Rohan throughout the rest of the War, so maybe even less would have gone to Gondor's aid. It was pretty obvious that every Rider was needed then.

Maybe this urge came from the same place as Frodo's impulse to rush at the Cave Troll and stab it in the foot for "The Shire!", or that caused Sam to turn back at Amon Hen and nearly drown trying to join his invisible master. Hobbits just seem to have this brave instinct deep down that surfaces when it's most needed.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

oops! should have clarified, was their decision to plunge into fangorn wise, given their knowledge at the time?

BTW thanx nrvi

[The Gaffer]

Just another quick observation on this chapter, which Nurv hints at:

If the Riders hadn't attacked the orcs, Saruman would have got hold of the hobbits, and the secret of Frodo's mission would have been found out.

So, the whole quest relies on Eomer's disobedience.

[Nurvingiel]

You make some very good points Gaffer. Éomer does contribute to the Quest more than he knows. I think it makes sense that he is disobedient though. It's not just random chance - he's not one to sit idly by while his king is poisoned by Grima's words, and orcs attack his country unchecked.

I don't think Grishnákh knew that the ring was a ring, though he clearly knew the hobbits carried something precious (he recognises the term) which was needed by Lugburz. Similarly, Ugluk seemed to know what was going on, and that Grishnákh might be considered to know more than was good for him.
I wonder how he got this extra information?

The rivalry and tensions between the two groups are very interesting, particularly how Grishnákh manages to undermine the stronger Ugluk while keeping his own head. It seems that Sauron uses the personal ambitions of his spies to keep each other in check.
Classic evil overlord rule - promote competent people but don't trust them too much. :D

[The Wizard from Milan]

Is this a sign that JRRT was, at this stage, still thinking of orcs as being created from corrupted elves rather than, as he later decided, from men?
Where did you read that orcs had been created from corrupted men? I am pretty sure that somewhere in LotR it still says corrupted elves (and it says that Saruman bred orcs and men together)

[Nurvingiel]

I too belong to the Orcs from Elves camp. :D

4. What is the significance of the varying ‘tribes’ of orcs?
I think this is one way that we're shown Orcs do have a culture, and there aren't homogeneous. Their differences are partly because they're squabbly orcs, and partly because they come from different areas and have different goals.


And, given Merry and Pippin's knowledge of Fangorn I still think it was wise enough to go in. Not foolish anyway. It's not the best plan ever to get lost in a mysterious forest with no supplies, but they really needed to lose Grishakh, and that was the best way to go about it. Considering their other option of staying in the open and trying to sneak off that way, I think it was a good idea. The Riders of Rohan also have never seen a holbytla before, they might be mistaken for the enemy in the confusion. (I think Merry or Pippin points that out somewhere.)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

it says in the sil that they were possibly bred from corrupted avari, however i beleive there is a reference to them being bred from Men in UT, IIRC, but i am often mistaken :p although i think it is quite possible that some were bred from avari, and others from men.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I wonder how he got this extra information?Few orcs would be sutable for intelligence work, as one of the few, he might have been involved in the capture/interrogation/permitted escape/following of Gollum.

One point I notice of Orc culture is that the women and children are very sheltered. Although the situations (mostly in human/elven lands) covered in the text account for much of this, we NEVer see Orc women and children at all, and thus see them exposed to their enemies. Variious humans and Elves w & c are out and about on journies in disputable lands and somtines even go to war, but NEVER orcs.
The laws of warfare among Elves and Edain (although often enough breech by men and somtime by Elves) regarding quarter (that it should normally be granted to properly surrending foes and non combatants) would explain much of the Orcs combacks in round Eriador after the orcs various servere military debacles. The womeon and children and males smart enough to surrender survived, albeit commonly driven from the holds. I have always wonder in the Dwarves had similar rules during their great war against the orcs of the Misty Mountains.

[BeardofPants]

it says in the sil that they were possibly bred from corrupted avari, however i beleive there is a reference to them being bred from Men in UT, IIRC, but i am often mistaken :p although i think it is quite possible that some were bred from avari, and others from men.
Wasn't it from Myths Transformed? I coulda sworn I read it there.

Orcs from Men camp, btw.

[Elemmírë]

Wasn't it from Myths Transformed? I coulda sworn I read it there.

Orcs from Men camp, btw.

Sorry, Chrys. BoP's right. :p It's in Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring. :)

[The Gaffer]

My own source is just reading stuff on this site :D

I think it's pretty clear that, at this stage of the development of the ideas, orcs are supposed to be more akin to elves than men. There's their medicine for one thing, but there are also references to the Nazgul and to the "spirit world" that suggest they share some of the elves' perceptions.

(I'm probably jumping ahead and thinking of stuff from the chapters with Shagrat and Gorbag; haven't actually re-read the Uruk-hai this time round.)

Did anyone else think it was a bit odd for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to be credited with some fantastic feat for travelling however many leagues on foot and yet the orcs outran them and don't even get a bronze medal? ;)

[mithrand1r]

Did anyone else think it was a bit odd for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to be credited with some fantastic feat for travelling however many leagues on foot and yet the orcs outran them and don't even get a bronze medal? ;)

Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli have a better PR staff than the orcs. ;)
Also no orcs were available at the medal ceremony.


2. Did Grishnákh really have any idea that the ring was borne by a hobbit?


Grishnákh's actions towards the hobbits indicate to me that he knew something about the ring. Perhaps he was around when Gollum was questioned, since he seemed to perk up when Pippin (or was it Merry?) made the gollum noise. I am not sure if knew exactly what the ring was or did, except that it was dearly wanted by Sauron. Grishnákh probably thought it was something powerful that he could use to his advantage. Either by using the ring for himself or getting credit/reward for returning the ring to his superiors.

[Valandil]

Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli have a better PR staff than the orcs. ;)
Also no orcs were available at the medal ceremony.



Grishnákh's actions towards the hobbits indicate to me that he knew something about the ring. Perhaps he was around when Gollum was questioned, since he seemed to perk up when Pippin (or was it Merry?) made the gollum noise. I am not sure if knew exactly what the ring was or did, except that it was dearly wanted by Sauron. Grishnákh probably thought it was something powerful that he could use to his advantage. Either by using the ring for himself or getting credit/reward for returning the ring to his superiors.

If I can give something away, Grishnakh was actually the Captain of the Orcs of Barad-dur, as we're told in a stray note about the speech of Morder in Appendix F.

Good point about the Orcs not getting a prize... they didn't really finish the race. And... they never bothered telling Eomer how quickly THEY had made their little trip! ;)

[The Gaffer]

I think they deserve a (dis)honorable mention though, particularly as they'd done it in daylight and in an "away" game.

It reminds me of that old joke: how did they build the pyramids? Answer: with whips.

[mithrand1r]

I think they deserve a (dis)honorable mention though, particularly as they'd done it in daylight and in an "away" game.

It reminds me of that old joke: how did they build the pyramids? Answer: with whips.

Where There's a Whip There's a Way.(Yellow text on red background) (http://www.angelfire.com/az/pforeman/Whip.html) ;)

Where There's a Whip There's a Way.(Black text on white background) (http://lubbington.tripod.com/lyric/elec/elec15.html);)

Valandil,

Thanks for the hint. Found the reference in
Appendix F
OF OTHER RACES
Orcs and the Black Speech.

The inscription on the Ring was in the ancient Black Speech, while the curse of the Mordor-orc on p.435 was in the more debased form used by the soldiers of the Dark Tower, of whom Grishnákh was the captain.

3. And did he really think he would find it on Merry or Pippin?

I think that Grishnákh probably thought it was worth a look in case the Ring was on one of the hobbits. If he found the Ring, he probably would have tried to make his own way separate from Uglúk and the Isengarders.

[The Gaffer]

Funny song. Yellow text on red background not so funny * wipes eyes *

I think this quote means that Grishnákh was the captain of the Mordor orcs who had crossed the river, and I guess that would mean he would have to be told what to look for.

One of the best things about this chapter is the last line. Don't have the book handy but it's something like "the smoke rose high to the heavens and was seen by many eyes", giving us a hint of the intrigue to come. It might suggest to Saruman, for example, that the Rohirrim, and therefore Theoden, may have found the Ring.

Oh, another groovy quote near the end (just found a PDF on the web) describes the hobbits: "little furtive figures that in the dim light looked like elf-children in the deeps of time peering out of the Wild Wood in wonder at their first dawn". Any thoughts on that?

[Twista]

One of the best things about this chapter is the last line. Don't have the book handy but it's something like "the smoke rose high to the heavens and was seen by many eyes", giving us a hint of the intrigue to come. It might suggest to Saruman, for example, that the Rohirrim, and therefore Theoden, may have found the Ring.


Yes the last line is exactly that..

I dont think that it really meant that, it could do, it's just what angle you look at it from. If we are looking at it from your point ofd view, yes Saruman well could assume that the Hobbits captured by the Uruks were in possesion of the ring, and hence Rohan now held it. It could be said that Sauron assumes the same, although that is off no conciqunce as he belives he will come back into his possesion at some point in time.

But note that just before this line, it notes:


...and no news of it (this raid) ever came back to either Mordor or Isenguard

From this we could assume that the smoke was mearly a pillar of success for the race of men, and for the greater good.

Its hard to interperate, you either look into it as far as you can, or just look at it at face value.

[Nurvingiel]

Even though no one was left alive to tell him, I think Saruman would figure out what happened when his army didn't come back. Maybe he even went to investigate himself - maybe that's why Gimli saw him in the forest. (Unless it was a confused and newly returned Gandalf.)

[The Gaffer]

Yes the last line is exactly that..

I dont think that it really meant that, it could do, it's just what angle you look at it from. If we are looking at it from your point ofd view, yes Saruman well could assume that the Hobbits captured by the Uruks were in possesion of the ring, and hence Rohan now held it. It could be said that Sauron assumes the same, although that is off no conciqunce as he belives he will come back into his possesion at some point in time.

But note that just before this line, it notes:



From this we could assume that the smoke was mearly a pillar of success for the race of men, and for the greater good.

Its hard to interperate, you either look into it as far as you can, or just look at it at face value.
I don't agree, Twista. I think it's highly significant, especially if either Saruman or Sauron believed that Rohan had the Ring. As Gandalf points out in the White Rider, what Sauron most fears is that someone else decides to use the Ring against him. So, an attack on Rohan is urgently needed.

Remember also that Aragorn turns up at Edoras, Wormtongue hears the title he claims, and then returns to Isengard. So Saruman knows about the Heir of Isildur, and so does Sauron.

Of course, later on we have Pippin looking in the Palantir, we find out that Saruman has been withholding information from his Master, and it all culminates with Aragorn wresting control of the Palantir from Sauron.

I think it's very subtle, very much in the background, but in this chapter we get the early strokes of the political backdrop to the Two Towers that makes sense of the whole War of the Ring. It's really top stuff, you know! :D

[Earniel]

And did he [Grishnákh] really think he would find it[the Ring] on Merry or Pippin?
When the Hobbits had teased him so much to the point where he takes them with him, Grishnákh mentions something about seaching to the bone. That one line indicated to me that the orc really must have thought Merry or Pippin had the Ring, instead of merely knowing who else held it.

What is the significance of the varying ‘tribes’ of orcs?
Thanks to Olmer's interesting theories about orcs being in league with the Elves of Lothlórien, I've been paying more attention to the bits about the orcs. It was actually quite fun trying to figure out the composition and allegiances of the diverse group of orcs that was travelling to Isengard. I'm not sure that I've figured it out completely but my respect for Tolkien has grown even more that he made an effort to bring so much diversity into this group of orcs. The different sizes, motives, attitudes, speeches even. This is what makes a writer great.

What also caught my attention was, even orcs are often discribed as 'wretched creatures', they themselves don't seem to feel so wretched at all. Okay, the orc's life is a hard one, you have to be careful - or daring- enough to keep your head on your shoulders. But they also seem to have a lot of 'fun' so to speak, even if their humour is somewhat darkish.

Why did Grishnákh reveal that a Winged Nâzgul awaited the orcs on the Eastern side of Anduin?
I think to instill some fear into Uglúk in the hope that the large orc would refrain of going to Isengard.

Was it a wise decision to plunge into Fangorn?
If looked at it afterwards, yes. If they hadn't gone into Fangorn as they did, a lot of important things would never have come to pass. When looked at it on the moment, I suppose they didn't have many other options. The wood was near, offered shelter from prying eyes and might have been a better chance to come across food than in the open field.

Would the riders have waited till dawn to attack if Mauhúr’s group had not arrived?
The memory is a little bit hazy, but didn't they wait until dawn for the full attack? I thought they beat off Mauhúr's orcs and then resumed their watch until the light was better.

When about to plunge into Fangorn, the hobbits see Uglúk charging up the slope. Did he see the hobbits, or was he madly running for his life?
I've been wondering about that too. I assume he didn't see them. Mainly because he wouldn't be expecting them there and because he had other issues on his hand. But also because the Hobbit's grey Elven mantles must have made them very difficult to see.

One of the best things about this chapter is the last line. Don't have the book handy but it's something like "the smoke rose high to the heavens and was seen by many eyes", giving us a hint of the intrigue to come. It might suggest to Saruman, for example, that the Rohirrim, and therefore Theoden, may have found the Ring.
Indeed, it opens the door for speculation and new events.

[Forkbeard]

You make some very good points Gaffer. Éomer does contribute to the Quest more than he knows. I think it makes sense that he is disobedient though. It's not just random chance - he's not one to sit idly by while his king is poisoned by Grima's words, and orcs attack his country unchecked.


I wonder how he got this extra information?


Classic evil overlord rule - promote competent people but don't trust them too much. :D
It is interesting to note Tolkien's structural parallels in the book. On the one hand we have hobbits captured by orcs being borne to Saruman and but for the disobedience of an heir, who is heir only because the one ahead of him for succession died in battle against orcs, to his "father" who upon hearing of the disobedience cruelly punishes Eomer.

On the other hand, a few days later, Frodo and Sam are taken prisoner by Gondor and to be borne off to Denethor and but for the disobedience of an heir who is heir only because the one ahead of him for succession died in battle against orcs, to his father who upon hearing of the disobedience cruelly punishes Faramir. Or am I pushing things a bit far?
FB

[mithrand1r]

It is interesting to note Tolkien's structural parallels in the book. On the one hand we have hobbits captured by orcs being borne to Saruman and but for the disobedience of an heir, who is heir only because the one ahead of him for succession died in battle against orcs, to his "father" who upon hearing of the disobedience cruelly punishes Eomer.

On the other hand, a few days later, Frodo and Sam are taken prisoner by Gondor and to be borne off to Denethor and but for the disobedience of an heir who is heir only because the one ahead of him for succession died in battle against orcs, to his father who upon hearing of the disobedience cruelly punishes Faramir. Or am I pushing things a bit far?
FB

I think it is an interesting parallel. You can back it with the text, which is a plus. However, you probably are pushing it too far though, IMO.

[The Gaffer]

Hello walthingie and welcome; there's an Introductions thread in General Messages where you can, er, introduce yourself if you like.

Classic evil overlord rule - promote competent people but don't trust them too much. :D
Yes, and the other aspect which is illustrated here is the personal ambition and infighting amongst evil cohorts. Grishnakh clearly wants to make a name for himself and sees the hobbits as an opportunity. Had he been disciplined and "on message" he would not have tried it on, and the hobbits would likely have perished.

[Harad]

Hello all. This is not one of the original discussion points..butt..one thing that always intriqued me is the relative overall strength of Grishnakh and Ugluk. Clearly in the chapter, G's party is outnumbered and thus the agenda is set by U. During the confrontation U decapitates a couple of the Northern maggots and G lams. However what if they had gone head to head? U is probably physically stronger and bigger, but can you discount G's cunning, fangs, and long dangling arms? In terms of survival, G had a better idea than U and if not for a lucky shot by a Yellow Hair, might have made it. So what do you think: G or U?

[The Gaffer]

In a square go, Ugluk every time. The hobbits were being taken to Isengard against Grishnakh's will. If he had been able, he would have killed Ugluk to prevent that from happening.

[Curubethion]

Ugluk. G was an orc, so he had cunning and malice. However, U had pure ruthlessness and brute strength. In a duel, he would just hammer incessantly at G.