Gandalf the White

[Elemmírë]

A new annoying, semi-philosophical question for you to ponder! :p Aren't you so very lucky? ;)

"Yes, I am white now," said Gandalf. "Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been" (The Two Towers, The White Rider).

At first glance, I don't think there is anything extraordinary in this quote. Ironic, yes; especially remarkable, no.

However, on second thought, I wonder what exactly is meant by this line. How can he almost be Saruman? In essence, the two of them appear to be completely different. Saruman is a Maia of Aulë, one concerned primarily with skill. Gandalf, on the other hand, dwelt in Lórien but was taught by Nienna. To me, their backgrounds seem completely different. It is almost like saying... that Finarfin is Fëanor as he should have been...

Am I analysing this quote too much? Does it simply mean that Gandalf has been sent back to play the role that Saruman should have filled?

Or is the nature of the Maiar different and more... fluid, for lack of a better word, than I had imagined? Just what sort of transformation did Gandalf truly undergo?

[inked]

Gandalf achieved what Saruman could have achieved. However, Eru gave his creatures free will. Gandalf was the only one of the Istari who achieved the goals for which they had been sent. The two blue Istari pass out of the story, though there are interesting speculations about their achievements or lack of them on some threads here. Radagast the Brown became over-enamoured of the birds, beasts and creatures (non-sentient) of Middle Earth. Saruman became enamoured of the way he would run the world and the power to accomplish that, secondarily overcome by the lust for that power in the Ring rather than Eru. Gandalf was the only one who remained true to the mission by his choices. It is true that he may not have been the best and brightest of the Istari, his humility often suggests that is how he views himself, but in this sentence we see what faithfulness to Eru can accomplish - even through the apparent catastrophe of self-sacrifice and death.

Had the Istari remained true to Eru and their mission, many calamities might have been avoided. Tolkien makes again obvious that choices make the man, the hobbit, the elf, the dwarf, and the Istari and Maiar and Ainur.

Choose wisely! And know that even so for much gain to one's self, society, or world, much must be ventured and nothing is assured save by such hopeful faith!

edit: It is instructive to read this passage against Saruman's words to Gandalf when the latter was captive at Isenguard and Galadriel's temptation ( or re-temptation to a previous error, in fact). Thus Tolkien gives us pictures of the Saruman, tempted and falling into self-will, Galadriel, fallen and repentant and redeeming her self in her refusal of the Ring, and Gandalf, the one who though tempted remains true.

It was after the Silmarillion became available that this meditation became clear. The great background of Creation, fall of the rebellious Ainur, and history of elves, dwarves, and men was needed to put it all together.

[Blackheart]

perhaps... If Olorian had been appointed as head of the istari before they left Valinor he would have been wearing white...

And, when he got back from Valinor after a little balrog induced side trip, he was the head of the istari, because Saruman had been revoked due to his treachery...

But if you remember, Gandalf had some difficulty recalling his "mortal" life. The istari "appeared" as aged men. But that was not their true form. It wasn't even their chosen form.

It's possible that their forms were chosen for them, and they were given 'roles' to play. Saruman chose not to play his role in the intended manner, so a new player was sent. It happened to be Olorian, this time garbed as "the white".

It's definately more than a mere role, however, if you are given a new body to inhabit....

[squinteyedsoutherner]

According to unfinished tales Manwe himself selected Olorin (Gandalf) to go as the third messenger to Middle Earth. Olorin replied that he was too weak for the task and that he feared Sauron. Manwe replied "all the more reason he should go" and he commanded Olorin to do so. Varda then looked up and said "not as the third" and Saruman remembered it.

Saruman's ability to succeed in the task was in question right from the beginning at least by Manwe and Varda and probably others as well. I don't think His failure was much of a surprise to the "wise". Cirdan gave Gandalf the ring of fire and Galadriel wanted him to head the council so whatever Manwe and Varda saw was also seen right away in ME by the Elves as well.

It is also very "Tolkien" to have the strongest and proudest fail while the humble and weaker succeed because of a selfless devotion to duty.

[The Wizard from Milan]

I actually think that JRRT is equating role with essence in this quote. So after Gandalf's coming back from Moria he takes the role of Saruman and therefore he is Saruman (almost)

[mewhmag]

i agree what has been said on the original mission of the Istari.

because Saruman went beyond the original mission of help by giving advise, spiritual support and encouragement for the people of middle-earth, and misused his freedom to gain power for himself by actively taking part in the matters, he "fell", and Gandalf moved up one "rank".

just do add another perspective, note that Gandalf did not push in, but tried to convince Saruman of his duty. so Gandalf was both true in keeping the original mission and the group hierarchy. he did not choose by himself to become Gandalf the White. that seems to be an important point IMHO.

[Blackheart]

Varda then looked up and said "not as the third" and Saruman remembered it...Saruman's ability to succeed in the task was in question right from the beginning at least by Manwe and Varda and probably others as well.

Then why was he (sauruman) "the white"? That determination would have been made either in Valinor, or amongst the istari themselves.

I'm not referring to the white counsel, but the istari themselves. And there seems to have been a ranking involved, else why would it matter what color Gandalf returned as?

Literary devices are a side note, it's disingenious to say saruman was head of the istari because the author wanted to set up a straw man to fail... Sure it's dramatic and makes a good story, but it's not internally consistent.

It makes more sense if you posit that the istari sorted themselves out before they appeared on the shores of middle earth. One could imagine Saruman saying he was in charge, and the others saying.. ok, go for it.

[Nurvingiel]

It is instructive to read this passage against Saruman's words to Gandalf when the latter was captive at Isenguard and Galadriel's temptation ( or re-temptation to a previous error, in fact). Thus Tolkien gives us pictures of the Saruman, tempted and falling into self-will, Galadriel, fallen and repentant and redeeming her self in her refusal of the Ring, and Gandalf, the one who though tempted remains true.
Nice post Inked. :) Gandalf is also tempted at Bag End, but refuses to even touch the Ring. I think he was tempted because he explains that he would have started our using the Ring for good, but would eventually succumb to its evil. At this point, he wasn't particularly versed in Ring-lore, having to go do some research before he can confirm it is in fact the One Ring (something like 16 years later).

You guys all make very interesting points - nice thread El. :)

Didn't Galadriel say somewhere she had wanted Gandalf to be the leader? This suggests that she and maybe other Elves either had influence over the situation, or at least could observe it happening.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I didn’t say Saruman was head of the Istari as a "straw man set up to fail” I just pointed out that his failure was very "Tolkien" and I think that to be true. I've always been of the impression that Saruman was "the white" because he was unquestionably the most "powerful" (if that is the correct term to use) of the Istari. The concerns of Manwe, Varda, Cirdan and Galadriel were issues relating to Saruman's character (which would ultimately effect his ability to succeed or fail in a task of this nature).

I’ve always taken Manwe’s response to Gandalf’s hesitancy to join the task “all the more reason he should go” to imply that there was a suspicion among the wise in Valinor that despite being the most "powerful" Saruman lacked the appropriate respect for Sauron and in particular Sauron’s ability to corrupt and therefore he was vulnerable. So ultimately Saruman is the greatest weapon but also potentially a very weak link.

I also think it difficult to separate the literary devices from the story or "physics" of Middle Earth. I’m not sure exactly how the colours of the Istari relate to their inherent abilities or ambitions in ME; but the literary and symbolic significance of something that was once white fracturing into it’s constituent parts (“many colours”) after a great treachery is surely no accident.

[Embladyne]

I’ve always taken Manwe’s response to Gandalf’s hesitancy to join the task “all the more reason he should go” to imply that there was a suspicion among the wise in Valinor that despite being the most "powerful" Saruman lacked the appropriate respect for Sauron and in particular Sauron’s ability to corrupt and therefore he was vulnerable. So ultimately Saruman is the greatest weapon but also potentially a very weak link.
This is an interesting idea I have not thought of exactly in those terms before. I had assumed that Olorin was a very powerful Maia, and because with his power, he also had knowledge of his limitations, he was more powerful than Saruman. Saruman, however had much more ambition, and could show his power in much more concrete ways, so it would seem upon appearances that he was more powerful. However, in his pride, he lacked the ability to truly judge his limitations, and because he concerned himself with more physical manifestations of power, he lacked the relationships in ME that would have brought him to a point where he would be willing to sacrifice himself for others.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Embladyne, I agree with most of what you wrote. An Istari can be measured in many ways, and I believe even Gandalf the Grey would be deemed "superior" to Saruman by many measurements. But Saruman did hold Gandalf against his will when push came to shove, and it is to that quality of "power" that I was referring above. I also think that the "wise" recognised the limitation of that type of strength in this specific task which is why so many seem to have realised that Gandalf and not Saruman would be Sauron's greatest foe.

[Blackheart]

I still say the only way the "color rankings" make any real sense is that the istari sorted themselves out, and chose their own "rankings" amongst themsleves. Perhaps leadership was more due to their individual personalities and chosen tactics than any real idea of "rank".

Note that Radagast was brown, the color of the earth. Grey is the color of humility, Blue the Sky. White is traditionally the color of divine power and light...

Gandalf's change in color may have more to do with a change in the new role he was to play than any internal change in ranking. If anyone was to directly oppose Sauron "the black", it would need to be the white wizard. I could easily see Saruman being a first choice for the role of direct opposition.

Of course, there was also the idea that direct opposition was likely to be a fruitless task. It was Gandalf the Grey (grey is humility remember) who initiated the downfall of Sauron by sending a hobbit off with the ring...

Here's a pretty question, would Gandalf the White (divine power and direct opposition) have done the same thing?

[Elemmírë]

Here's a pretty question, would Gandalf the White (divine power and direct opposition) have done the same thing?

I think you're suggesting, basically, that Gandalf the White is not the same in nature as Gandalf the Grey.

It is a pretty question. I say no, but I have no real support.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I’ve always taken Manwe’s response to Gandalf’s hesitancy to join the task “all the more reason he should go” to imply that there was a suspicion among the wise in Valinor that despite being the most "powerful" Saruman lacked the appropriate respect for Sauron and in particular Sauron’s ability to corrupt and therefore he was vulnerable. So ultimately Saruman is the greatest weapon but also potentially a very weak link.
Saruman's power was in craftsmanship and the skill of the hand whereas Gandalf's power lay within his wisdom and his knowledge. In that respect Gandalf was much more powerful than any ither on ME but the power Saruman posessed was mor obvious and easier to see which is why he was known as more powerful, which in a respect was true.

Why though, was Saruman known as the Wise, and Gandalf was not? Was it because he had studied the enemies crafts and learned many of his ways?

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I still think that by the most basic definition of "power" Saruman was stronger. He held Gandalf against his will, to me that is adequate proof of his strength. When Gandalf returns he is clearly the more "powerful". As I said above there are other ways to measure the Istari though.

I agree with your comments about Gandalf and wisdom and Saruman and the skill of craft, after all, it was Aule who chose him according to unfinished tales. However, we must remember that one of Saruman's greatest abilities was the power of his voice to persuade, when we add to this that the mission of the Istari was to inspire resistance to Sauron the potential of Saruman as a positive force was huge. Obviously he squandered his abilities as we all know.

I think Saruman became known as the wise because he hoarded a lot of knowledge at Isengard (not sharing with others in the council) and he also spent a lot of time reading in the archives of Minas Tirith. I think Gandalf recalls being asked what he expects to learn that Saruman doesn't already know (since Saruman had already spent so much time there) I always got the impression that Saruman did a lot of “putting 2 and 2 together” so to speak.

Studying the enemy as "closely" as he did would be a big part of why many thought him wise, it was also exactly why Manwe was worried IMHO. Saruman delved into things that “pulled him in” things that Gandalf would have avoided. That to me is one of the best examples of how Gandalf was intuitively wiser.

Does anyone know what can definitively be said about the colours, actual text?

I always thought Saruman himself instigated the changed to "many colours" is there any evidence that it happened because of his actions and then he just embraced the change?

[Blackheart]

If I recall correctly, Sauruman had essayed a small bit of ring making himself...

I don't particularly know if it makes sense to regard an istari's colors as a badge...

I would make an argument that the colors were more linked to the individual's essencse...

After Saruman began his downward slide, he was no longer "white" ... but he wasn't entirely black either, in so much as he didn't want Saruon to win... not if there were any other options. (So let me have the ring 'ol buddy Gandalf.. you gave it to a hobbit!? Well I hope she was worth it.... HE?)

I think he actually believed that he was on the right path for a long time, until it was far too late to turn back... At which point he was Sauruman of the many colors. Someone who desired to possess or control everything... Had he succeded he would have then fallen even further to become Saruman the black, the new dark lord...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I still think that by the most basic definition of "power" Saruman was stronger. He held Gandalf against his will, to me that is adequate proof of his strength. When Gandalf returns he is clearly the more "powerful". As I said above there are other ways to measure the Istari though.
Then wouldn't that be seen as strength, not power? These two things can be different. Power can be used as I stated above, but strength can mean one of two things IMO. Mental strength, which both Gandalf and Saruman had, and physical strength. Arguably both Saruman and Gandalf had this two, but I would associate this more with someone who is reknowned for craftsmanship, not wisdom.

Gandalf probably used this wisdom not to try and escape from Isengard. He was almost sure that Radagast hadn't been corrupted by Saruman so there was no reason for Radagast not to do as Gandalf asked. Even if a creature that couldn't bear Gandalf away from Isengard came, they could at least bear tidings of his capture to Rivendell. Also I think Gandalf had a bit more sense than to try and escape from an Isengard filled with Orcs and Wolves.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I agree with what you are saying Dunedain perhaps I should have used the word "strength" as opposed to "power". I think we are saying the same thing with different words (if I understand you correctly).

Interesting what you say about Gandalf being held at Isengard.....something to think about!

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Some useful quotes:

From Unfinished Tales

"The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. (here there is a foot note pointing out that Gandalf also says this at the council of Elrond “Saruman the White is the greatest of my order”)"

"And last came one who seemed least, less tall than the others and in looks more aged, grey haired and leaning on a staff. But Cirdan divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and welcomed him with reverence."


“Who would go? for they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in a flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh”. But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aule and Alatar who was chosen by Orome. Then Manwe asked “where was Olorin, And Olorin was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (Olorin was a lover of the Eldar who remained)But Olorin declared he was too weak for such a task and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that that was all the more reason he should go and that he commanded Olorin. But at that Varda looked up and said “not as the third” and Curomo remembered it. "


The Silmarillion

"Of these Curunir was the eldest and came first and after him came Mithrander and Radagast, and others of the Istari who went into the East of Middle-earth and do not come into these tales".

I had forgotten (or perhaps never noticed) that it appears that they don’t come together on the same ship, it seems they are arriving one by one at different times. I also never noticed that Saruman is older than Gandalf (at least to me it seems Tolkien is referring to his age and not the fact the he has been in ME longer when he says eldest). It also seems in the Sil that Gandalf is not last to arrive but second although it does not precisely say that it seems implied; so it seems we may have some slight variation on that.
Tolkien’s use of the word “spirit” is interesting, I take it to mean “character” but I’m sure others will find different meanings.

I also never noticed that Olorin is already clad in grey in Valinor.

[The Gaffer]

"Spirit" is indeed an interesting word here.

One would assume that the "spirit" of each would be fixed, since they are Ainur. In which case, would it not be predictable that Saruman/Curunir would succumb to pride and evil?

I guess we have to infer that Middle Earth held particular temptations even for the Ainur and that they couldn't therefore anticipate events. Or else that their knowledge of each others' (and their own) spirits were imperfect.

[Blackheart]

"(at least to me it seems Tolkien is referring to his age and not the fact the he has been in ME longer when he says eldest)"

Since they are maiar and all maiar are ainur, and all ainur were created at the same "time", I think that it sort of HAS to referr to the times they arrived in M.E.

The fact that Olorion is glad in grey in valinor might have something to to do with the fact that he spent much time in the gardens of NIENNA...

[squinteyedsoutherner]

"Of these Curunir was the eldest AND came first"

I believe means that Saruman was the first to "forgo might and clothe himself in flesh" The Istari had to relearn things. Their previous knowledge and wisdom were "dimmed". It was a "rebirth" of sorts. Saruman arrived in Middle-earth before Gandalf (and according to UT Gandalf came last). I would assume that one could not become flesh, still hang around in Valinor and then come to Middle-earth at a later date - that doesn't make sense to me at all, in fact it defeats the whole purpose. UT says they appeared "about the year 1000 of the third age" that is pretty vague and certainly leaves open the possibility that even years may have separated the first and last arrival.

I don't mean to be arguementative but I can't imagine that a writer would refer to a person as "eldest" and expect the reader to infer anything other than oldest in birth order. I think "eldest" can only apply to this "age difference" otherwise the sentence is misleading and redundant.

[Embladyne]

TD, I think that your ideas about why Gandalf did not try to escape from Isengard are pretty sound. In fact, I had been considering this theory, but have yet to look for evidence to support it. It seems to me that he would be wise enough not to waste his energy trying to, perhaps futilely, escape. He had other matters more important than his own well-being to deal with.

The fact that Olorion is glad in grey in valinor might have something to to do with the fact that he spent much time in the gardens of NIENNA...That's what I assumed, as well. Grey is an appropriate color for mourning, and of the Istari, I believe that Olorin understands most clearly the sorrow of those who die, and why it is important that the mission of the Istari succeed.

[Artanis]

Nice thread Elemmire! :)
I’ve always taken Manwe’s response to Gandalf’s hesitancy to join the task “all the more reason he should go” to imply that there was a suspicion among the wise in Valinor that despite being the most "powerful" Saruman lacked the appropriate respect for Sauron and in particular Sauron’s ability to corrupt and therefore he was vulnerable. So ultimately Saruman is the greatest weapon but also potentially a very weak link.I don't think the Valar suspected that Saruman would fail his task and fall, anymore than the others of the Istari. In a way you could say that Gandalf was the only one to remain true to his mission, even if saruman was the only one to become corrupted by Sauron. Radagast got enamoured by the nature in Middle-Earth and occupied himself with that which lay nearest to his heart and chose to forget about his appointed task. Of the last 2 Istari we know very little.

Manwë's words could be taken to mean that Gandalf's humbleness and self-doubt, and his respect for Sauron's power, made him a very different personality from Saruman, and that he therefore would become a perfect companion.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with you about Saruman Arty. Remember, Manwe thought that Melkor repented when he sued for pardon the second time because there was no evil in him so he could not comprehend evil.

[Artanis]

Or is the nature of the Maiar different and more... fluid, for lack of a better word, than I had imagined? Just what sort of transformation did Gandalf truly undergo?There is a passage in 'Letters' about this. I cannot quote it to you right now, but in essence it says that Gandalf truly died, as we know in combat with the Balrog. His willingness to sacrifice himself, and his willingness to give up his chances of a personal success, was the key to his transformation. He was received by Eru, enhanced both in power and wisdom, and then sent back to fulfil his task.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Artanis wrote :Manwë's words could be taken to mean that Gandalf's humbleness and self-doubt, and his respect for Sauron's power, made him a very different personality from Saruman, and that he therefore would become a perfect companion.

I agree with that except I'm not so sure that I would say companion. I think of the two blue wizards as companions since there is specific mention of friendship between them. Saruman is a little "ticked-off" by Varda's comment in UT before he becomes "flesh" he is also jealous of Cirdan's gift to Gandalf after he becomes "flesh". I think this personality trait along with his pride was probably not unknown in Valinor and given the nature of the task I can't see it raising absolutely no concern at all among the Valar - I just think the upside of Saruman's potential and the inclusion of Olorin out-weighed those concerns.

Artanis wrote: I don't think the Valar suspected that Saruman would fail his task and fall, anymore than the others of the Istari

I disagree here, I think Manwe (at least) had more faith in Olorin than any other.

Dunedain wrote: Remember, Manwe thought that Melkor repented when he sued for pardon the second time because there was no evil in him so he could not comprehend evil.

Very good point, I'm sticking with my views for now, but I had not remembered that.

[Blackheart]

"Of these Curunir was the eldest AND came first"
..snip... I think "eldest" can only apply to this "age difference" otherwise the sentence is misleading and redundant.

...Curunir was the eldest (because) he came first ...

Talk about redundancy! That's what eldest means!

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Blackheart wrote:Curunir was the eldest (because) he came first ...
Tokien wrote: Curunir was the eldest and came first

And means in addition to, it is not a synonym for because.

Blackheart wrote: talk about redundancy! That's what eldest means!

Do you understand what I wrote? The sentence would be redundant because you are claiming "eldest" and "arrived first" mean the same thing. If by eldest Tolkien means he came first then why follow it with "and came first"

Blackheart using the adjective eldest to modify a noun (in this case a person) means oldest by birth order.

Of the five women at the party Mary was the eldest and the first to arrive.

means to every reasonable person that Mary is the oldest and she arrived first. It doeas not simply mean she arrived first. Use eldest in a sentence referring to one person in a group that does not infer they are oldest by age.

[The Wizard from Milan]

But at that Varda looked up and said “not as the third” and Curomo remembered it. "

<snip>

It also seems in the Sil that Gandalf is not last to arrive but second although it does not precisely say that it seems implied; so it seems we may have some slight variation on that.


I am not sure whether you are implying a link in these two phrases or not, but I think that the first sentence is to be read as “not as the third, but as the first” and it is figurative speach.

I also wander whether Gandalf was clothed in gray because he was stained by his hesitation to go (I am sure Inked will love this comment). He faltered in front of the task and therefore was not pure. He truly accepted the task only when he accepted to die for it and there the original sin was washed away and he came back white.

[Embladyne]

I also wander whether Gandalf was clothed in gray because he was stained by his hesitation to go (I am sure Inked will love this comment). He faltered in front of the task and therefore was not pure. He truly accepted the task only when he accepted to die for it and there the original sin was washed away and he came back white.I don't agree, mainly beacuse I don't see it as a fault of Gandalf's that he did not have confidence in his ability to defeat Sauron. He really didn't have the power to defeat Sauron. Nobody in ME did. In fact, it was Sauron himself who caused his own defeat. (These are my opinions.)
The color of the Istari's robes is an interesting debate. I'm not sure how to interpret it, but I think it may have something to do with both the roles and the characters of the Istari, but not necessarily as concrete an association as those so far proposed.

[Blackheart]

Do you understand what I wrote? The sentence would be redundant because you are claiming "eldest" and "arrived first" mean the same thing. If by eldest Tolkien means he came first then why follow it with "and came first"

I understand fine. I'm just saying I don't agree. If you don't like "because" then substitute "therefore". It makes absolutely no sense to apply Eldest in the birth order sense when you're talking about immortal spirits that have existed since the begining of time.

It really doesn't even make sense when applied to the istari's bodies, since it's quite probable that they were never born of a woman's body to begin with.

If you were never BORN, how can you be the eldest in birth order?

Now if you are talking about a play, then whatever character appears on stage first is the "eldest" character. That's an analogy that I say applies more directly.

Who's older Pan or Hook? Who's eldest? Hook is obviously older. But answering who is eldest gets a lot more complicated.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Let's go over this Blackheart.


I understand fine. I'm just saying I don't agree. If you don't like "because" then substitute "therefore".

Why I am substituting yet another word for and that does not mean the same thing as and?

It makes absolutely no sense to apply Eldest in the birth order sense when you're talking about immortal spirits that have existed since the begining of time. It really doesn't even make sense when applied to the istari's bodies, since it's quite probable that they were never born of a woman's body to begin with.

“Who would go? for they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in a flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh

This is why it makes sense (to me). Birth order in this case has nothing to do with women.

Now if you are talking about a play, then whatever character appears on stage first is the "eldest" character. That's an analogy that I say applies more directly.Who's older Pan or Hook? Who's eldest? Hook is obviously older. But answering who is eldest gets a lot more complicated.

The words oldest and eldest are synonyms. whoever you decide is oldest is also eldest.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Milan wrote: I am not sure whether you are implying a link in these two phrases or not, but I think that the first sentence is to be read as “not as the third, but as the first” and it is figurative speach.

I agree, that quote is why I think that Manwe and Varda had the most faith in Olorin and less in Curunir. I was referring to the wording of the Sil quote: (yeah this one again)

"Of these Curunir was the eldest and came first and after him came Mithrander and Radagast"

which lists Gandalf's name second (although it doesn't say he came second) it does give the impression he was not last which the UT quote directly says. In fact one might even argue it suggests Radagast and Mithrander came together.

[Blackheart]

Why I am substituting yet another word for and that does not mean the same thing as and?

I'm not substituting it. I'm changing the sentence. But fine use "in addition to" .... Eldest in addition to came first. He got to middle earth first. And he was eldest. He was the eldest because he got to middle earth first. Because he was embodied first. That's what I've been trying to point at.

He got to middle earth first because he was bodied first.

He was bodied first because he was the first sent to middle earth... therefore that is why he's the "eldest".

Saruman was the eldest because he came first!
Saurman was the eldest therefore he came first!

This is why it makes sense (to me). Birth order in this case has nothing to do with women.

The words oldest and eldest are synonyms. whoever you decide is oldest is also eldest.

Neither one is older than the other! Only the body is older, and they aren't limited to their bodies... Gandalf coming back is a case in point.

What, if you count it that way he was a mere newborn at 6 months or so...

It's like saying you're older than me because you got up earlier this morning and put your clothes on first if you look at it that way.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i believe there is a reference somewhere to allatar and pallando arriving much earlier, at about the same time that glorfindel returned to endor, or was this idea rejected by tolkien in favour of curumo arriving earliest? just my 2 pence

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I can't tell what your point is Blackheart, it seems to have changed, and I'm not wasting any more time trying to follow.

The sentence is this:
"Of these Curunir was the eldest (because he was bodied first) and came first" (because he arrived first)

Not this :
"Of these Curunir was the eldest (because he arrived first) and came first (because he arrived first)

With correct synonyms it could also be written thus:
"Of these Curunir was the oldest and arrived first

I'm done with this sentence.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Last child wrote:i believe there is a reference somewhere to allatar and pallando arriving much earlier, at about the same time that glorfindel returned to endor, or was this idea rejected by tolkien in favour of curumo arriving earliest? just my 2 pence

I think that is correct although I can't recall where that is written. And yes I think Tolkien did revise that to have Saruman arriving first. I'm still not sure of the order following his arrival though. I guess it doesn't really matter much either way.

[Blackheart]

The point was, you misunderstood what I was saying in the first place.

I suppose you misunderstood because I typed "eldest because he arrived first" instead of "arrived first because he was eldest".

To me those mean the roughly same thing in this particular instance. He had to be the eldest because he arrived first, he arrived first because he was eldest. etc.

The only real point that I was trying to make is that eldest really can't have anything to do with age in the normal sense. For some reason you got stuck on grammer.

[me9996]

Saruman got bad, Gandalf got dead, the valar sent Gandalf back in Sarumans place, the end.

[Maerbenn]

the valar sent Gandalf back in Sarumans place
No, not the Valar. Tolkien wrote in a draft of a letter to Rober Murray (4 November, 1954, published as no. 156 in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien):He [Gandalf] was [originally] sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. ‘Naked I was sent back—for a brief time, until my task is done’. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the ‘gods’ whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed ‘out of thought and time’.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Note also that it say's 'until my task is done' not 'until Saruman's task is done'.