Isildur's Curse

[Elemmírë]

How Isildur was able to curse the Kings of the Mountains in death so that they could not rest until their oath was fulfilled? In "of Beren and Luthien" in the Silm, it is written that "Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world..."

So how could Isildur?

[Valandil]

Just tossing out a guess... the Valar did not have the authority over the Children of Eru, for one. Also - I've wondered if the Stone of Erech had some special properties... I've even suggested once that it perhaps could have come from the Meneltarma.

In a broader sense though... it was a convenient story device for Tolkien to use. I don't think he was as concerned about ironing out all the 'rules' as he was with telling a good story. :)

[Lefty Scaevola]

The oath (no doubt a fearful one of great cosequence) appears to have had more power over their spirits when separated from their bodies than when their spirits were bound to base elemets of their bodies. I would guess that The curse was really more invoking the power of the oath than a seperate socerous action.

[Blackheart]

Yes, they were oathbreakers. It wasn't so much that Isildur cursed them, they cursed themselves.

Isildur or his heir had the power to release them, and thus the power to command them.

Kings of the Dunadain are pretty potent fellows, but the real power is the oath.

Just look what an oath did to the Noldor if you doubt it...

[Wayfarer]

"Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world..."

Correct. But something that is often passed over is the fact that at that point Isildur, as King in Exile of the Numenoreans, was also the High Priest of Illuvatar - who did have the power to prevent the spirits of men from departing.

It is quite likely that Isildur would have required any oath be sworn before Eru, and that Eru held them to that oath by keeping them in Middle Earth until Isildur or his Heir declared that the oath was fulfilled.

[Elemmírë]

Correct. But something that is often passed over is the fact that at that point Isildur, as King in Exile of the Numenoreans, was also the High Priest of Illuvatar - who did have the power to prevent the spirits of men from departing.

Whoa...! I've never heard that one before! High Priest? What did I miss this time? :confused:

All the same, why would he have the power while a Vala would not?

[The Gaffer]

Lefty and BLackheart have proposed a good answer to that, I think. It would also tie in with the many instances in LOTR (and the Hobbit) where the inhabitants of ME might suffer consequences of breaking promises (e.g. the riddling game!)

[Pytt]

Whoa...! I've never heard that one before! High Priest? What did I miss this time? :confused:

All the same, why would he have the power while a Vala would not?

I too wondered about that. I apperentely have missed something.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Whoa...! I've never heard that one before! High Priest? What did I miss this time? :confused:

All the same, why would he have the power while a Vala would not?
ECHO echoECHO echoECHO echoECHO echo

I dont really understand either!!:D
never thought of numenorean king as high priest of Eru
must re-read UT/appendices :p

[Valandil]

No 'High Priest' thing is stated, that I know of, but that notion could easily be inferred (and I agree with it) from 'A Description of Numenor' in UT. Particularly the part about the three days when the King went up on the Meneltarma - basically to lead his people in silent worship... and an eagle of Manwe always came to meet them there. The days corresponded with the two equinoxes and the summer solstice (I forget the exact names, but they all start with 'Eru...').

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

so, purely in speculation, would this High Priest thing be transmuted on to Aragorn? making him a form of Priest/King?

EDIT: i meant priest/king, not pope/king :D:D

[Valandil]

Let's say 'Priest/King' since 'Pope' is specific to Roman Catholic Christianity.

Yes - I think so.

Let me put it this way. If some Numenoreans had gone and landed at Aman while Tar-Palantir was King - and he stayed behind on Numenor, as I think he would have done - I don't think that Numenor would have been destroyed. However, when King Ar-Pharazon actually led the assault (and many kings before him, going way back, EXCEPT for Tar-Palantir, had been envious of the Eldar and distrustful of the Valar - basically 'in rebellion' in their hearts), the entire island was doomed.

A priest is one who stands between Man and God. He intercedes, or intervenes. He represents each party to the other.

I think many ancient cultures viewed their kings in this way though. Many developed sort of a 'divine' aspect of royalty in their thinking.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

like the Imperial Cult of ancient Rome, then?
in fact I tend to think of the romans along the same lines as Gondor anyway!! :p

[Valandil]

Yes - and the Egytians with their Pharoahs - and many others besides, I think. (EDIT: and some see more parallels with Egypt than with Rome - I think there are also some with ancient Israel - both for 3rd Age Dunedain kingdoms - and for 2nd Age Numenor)

Even if we do look at the (possible) Christian symbolism, Jesus Christ is viewed as having the three offices of prophet, priest and king. Among the Hebrews of the Old Testament, we do NOT see this combination of offices (no 'Priest/Kings'). Those offices are kept entirely separate, unlike other cultures. Saul, while king, is chastised severely for trying to fill a priestly role (so one might think that other kings of that day were doing so).

[Elemmírë]

I still hold with what I said before. Even if he is a priest-king, I don't see why Isildur would have more power in these matters than the Vala who deals with death and souls and whatnot! :p

[me9996]

It's tolkens world... I gess it's the ring...

[Elemmírë]

Can't be the Ring.

The Ring is no more powerful than Sauron.

I don't think Isildur even had it then, but even if he did, Sauron's powers don't match Mandos's.

[Wayfarer]

I still hold with what I said before. Even if he is a priest-king, I don't see why Isildur would have more power in these matters than the Vala who deals with death and souls and whatnot! The question is, why does he need to have power for that to happen?

He brought the Kings of the Mountains and their people to the stone of erech, and had them swear an oath to help him fight Sauron. We don't know the words of that oath, but it could have easily been 'May The One deny our spirits rest until this oath is fulfilled' or something dramatic like that. In any case, it doesn't have to be complicated - you don't need to try and puzzle out how Isildur bound them to this world, because he doesn't need to - they bound themselves, or at the very least Eru (the one being who certainly has that power) bound them at their own request.

In any case, look at Maedhros and Maglor - they swore an oath before Eru, and even when they wanted to break it they couldn't. The oath-swearing was that serious a matter. (Although, come to think of it, the should have grabbed a mortal, say 'Yo, plead our case before Eru!' and then killed him. :p)

[Elemmírë]

you don't need to try and puzzle out how Isildur bound them to this world, because he doesn't need to - they bound themselves, or at the very least Eru (the one being who certainly has that power) bound them at their own request.

I've come to a similar conclusion myself. Isildur himself did not have the power to bind them... but one cannot forget the power of Oaths.

An interesting corrolary is also in the story of Beren and Lúthien, where at Lúthien's request, Beren manages to remain in Mandos. Although I have read that the fëar of Men have no real power after death to withstand the call of Mandos, occurences like this must be taken into account.

A second thought: Do you think it could possibly be psychology?

I've argued this about Morgoth's curse of Túrin, and I'd apply it here too: Can a curse give power unless the Cursed allows it? I think at some level, those cursed by Isildur believed themselves cursed. They say to Aragorn that they have come to fulfill their oath and by doing so earn peace. Like you said, I believe that they somehow managed to bind themselves to the world.

I don't see why Eru would bind them, though surely he has the power. In all, he seems rather inactive :p, though granted his role could be enormous, and simply unnoticed...

In any case, look at Maedhros and Maglor - they swore an oath before Eru, and even when they wanted to break it they couldn't. The oath-swearing was that serious a matter. (Although, come to think of it, the should have grabbed a mortal, say 'Yo, plead our case before Eru!' and then killed him. :p)

:eek: You really think that would have worked? :p

The poor doomed fools. :(

[Blackheart]

Correct. But something that is often passed over is the fact that at that point Isildur, as King in Exile of the Numenoreans, was also the High Priest of Illuvatar - who did have the power to prevent the spirits of men from departing.

Now how are you interpreting the fact that office of high priest of the NUMENOREANS (not the high priest of ARDA) , which was held by the kings until it was forfieted in the downfall, was passed on into exile after the loss of Meneltarma?

And even if THAT were so, how are you then deriving the idea that the high priest would have the power to stop a soul from leaving Arda?

If anyone has a claim to being the high priest of Eru on Arda, it would be Manwe. And he states quite plainly that he's not empowered to do that...

[Blackheart]

An interesting corrolary is also in the story of Beren and Lúthien, where at Lúthien's request, Beren manages to remain in Mandos. Although I have read that the fëar of Men have no real power after death to withstand the call of Mandos, occurences like this must be taken into account.

The difference there is, Beren swore to wait for Luthien on the Hither Shore. As a disembodied soul. In order for them to come back, it took a special dispensation and an intercession from Manwe to Eru...

Luthien didn't somehow bind him, nor even plead for Mandos to hold him. He tarried in the halls of Mandos. Any Mortal could likely do that, had they reason enough.

[Valandil]

Now how are you interpreting the fact that office of high priest of the NUMENOREANS (not the high priest of ARDA) , which was held by the kings until it was forfieted in the downfall, was passed on into exile after the loss of Meneltarma?
:
:

BH - I would suggest that Wayfarer probably means that he was the Priest of Iluvatar to the Dunedain... by extension perhaps, to all men.

Actually though - Elendil was still top dog at this time. It's apparent that he had not yet fallen and that Isildur did not have the Ring when he received the Oath at Erech - for otherwise the Men who swore the Oath would have no opportunity to break it, since at that time, Sauron was evidently defeated and the trouble was past.

It seems that the Oath was the thing. It may have helped that Isildur had some sort of royal standing... it may have been something special about the Stone of Erech - but the taking of the Oath seems to have been the key.

[Blackheart]

All that are left of the Numenoreans that honor Eru ARE the Dunedain...

I doubt any of the Black Numenorians hold much with worshiping Eru...

But no, what I was pointing out was that even if the King of Westernesse was titled with High Preist, it wouldn't supercede Manwe, who had already noted that he couldn't hold the souls of men, nor stave off death... not without special dispensation anyway....

[Attalus]

I agree with Wayfarer. It was the oath that bound them, obviously an oath to Eru as has been posted. Consider the power of the Oath of Fëanor, as has been alluded to, and the Oath that Gollum swore on the Precious, which has not. Obviously, the Ring is not Eru, but this is but another example of the terrible power of oaths in Tolkien's world.

[me9996]

I agree with Wayfarer. It was the oath that bound them, obviously an oath to Eru as has been posted. Consider the power of the Oath of Fëanor, as has been alluded to, and the Oath that Gollum swore on the Precious, which has not. Obviously, the Ring is not Eru, but this is but another example of the terrible power of oaths in Tolkien's world.
I gess it's unadamus, (er..) unademuss :confused: .

I hope you know what I'm trying for :o

P.S.
The 90 second rule is realy anyoying!

[Valandil]

...P.S.
The 90 second rule is realy anyoying!

Really? :confused: We've been talking about doubling it!

[Rían]

NOOOO! Don't double it!! IT's really annoying for us fast typists!!


Anywho, am in a tearing hurry but found an interesting quote from Letter #156 - from JRRT letter 156
Also when the 'Kings' came to an end there was no equivalent to a 'priesthood': the two being identical in Númenórean ideas.

I think whoever said it was the WORDS of the oath (prob. including the name of Eru), not the one who directed the oath (i.e., Isildur), that made the oath binding had a good idea.

[Attalus]

I gess it's unadamus, (er..) unademuss :confused: .

I hope you know what I'm trying for :o

P.S.
The 90 second rule is realy anyoying!LOL, I think that you mean unanimous.

RÃ*an, I quite agree. About the Name of Eru, not the fast typing. :D

[Elemmírë]

I think whoever said it was the WORDS of the oath (prob. including the name of Eru), not the one who directed the oath (i.e., Isildur), that made the oath binding had a good idea.

That's an idea I can definitely agree with also, RÃ*an.

However, how often were oaths made that included the name of Eru? From the Silmarillion, emphasis mine own:

They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar...

The fact that the word "even" is included when speaking of the Oath of Fëanor makes me doubt that oaths including the name Eru were not all that common.

[Blackheart]

Main Entry: oath
Function: noun
1 : a solemn attestation of the truth of one's words or the sincerity of one's intentions; specifically : one accompanied by calling upon a deity as a witness

Seeing as Tolkien was a philologist, I somehow doubt that he would have called an oath an oath unless it actually invoked the name of a divine witness.

Otherwise he would have called it a vow.

[Nurvingiel]

What's the Meneltarma? It seems relevant to this thread.

Another powerful Oath is the one made by the Stewards of Gondor to uphold the line of the King! This causes them (essentially) to turn over the throne to a distant King who appears as if out of legend, after hundreds of years of successful and stable rule by the Stewards.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

meneltarma is the mountain in the middle of numenor, has a hallow to eru on the summit, but no other temple or such like.

[Elemmírë]

Main Entry: oath
Function: noun
1 : a solemn attestation of the truth of one's words or the sincerity of one's intentions; specifically : one accompanied by calling upon a deity as a witness

Seeing as Tolkien was a philologist, I somehow doubt that he would have called an oath an oath unless it actually invoked the name of a divine witness.

Otherwise he would have called it a vow.

I don't agree.

From "Minas Tirith" in "The Return of the King."

Here do I swear fealty and service to Gondor, and to the Lord and Steward of the realm, to speak and to be silent, to do and to let be, to come and to go, in need or plenty, in peace or war, in living or dying, from this hour henceforth, until my lord release me, or death take me, or the world end. So say I, Peregrin son of Paladin of the Shire of the Halflings.

There's an oath of fealty, no mention of Eru in it at all. And if you doubt it is actually therefore an oath, all you need to do is look at the next line where Denethor says "oath-breaking with vengeance." It is an oath.

And also considering that Tolkien was a philologist, I don't think the word "even" would have been thrown in to the description of the Oath of Fëanor if swearing to Eru was a common occurrence.

[Blackheart]

There's an oath of fealty, no mention of Eru in it at all. And if you doubt it is actually therefore an oath, all you need to do is look at the next line where Denethor says "oath-breaking with vengeance." It is an oath.

If it's an oath of fealty, it is a strange one. Because if you look at any oath of fealty in the middle ages, it includes a reference to god as the ultimate witness.

But then Tolkien may have been operating under the assumption of the faithful Numenoreans as "elevated humanity", at least from a christian viewpoint.

'The precept, "Swear not at all," refers probably to
ordinary conversation between man and man (Matt. 5:34,37). But if the words are taken as referring to oaths, then their intention may have been to show "that
the proper state of Christians is to require no oaths; that when evil is expelled from among them every yea and nay will be as decisive as an oath, every promise as binding as a vow." '

In other words, the oath would have been understood to name Eru as witness, without direct invocation.

[me9996]

Main Entry: oath
Function: noun
1 : a solemn attestation of the truth of one's words or the sincerity of one's intentions; specifically : one accompanied by calling upon a deity as a witness

Seeing as Tolkien was a philologist, I somehow doubt that he would have called an oath an oath unless it actually invoked the name of a divine witness.

Otherwise he would have called it a vow.
So a valar did it? Okay, we're done... :rolleyes:

P.S.
What is the reson for the 90 second rule?!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If it's an oath of fealty, it is a strange one. Because if you look at any oath of fealty in the middle ages, it includes a reference to god as the ultimate witness.
But who's to say that the Hobbit's knew about Eru. They were simple creatures and had no real love for any creatures save themselves, and they were not learned (save a few) in the histories of elves, men etc.

[Blackheart]

I doubt that denethor would have used a special form for a hobbit.
I can only reiterate that it is a strange form for a fealty oath.

Tolkien also would have been very aware of the form, so there's probably a definate reason for the omission...

If you could figure it out you could proabably get a master's thesis out of it... :p

[Valandil]

LM - perhaps Denethor would not invoke the name of Eru in that oath because of his OWN rebellion... his unwillingness to step aside for the Man who would be King. ;) Note that the oath is one of loyalty to the Steward... not to the King himself.

I did not think enough about this to be convinced of it... it was just a passing thought. What do the rest of you think? :)

[Elemmírë]

So a valar did it? Okay, we're done... :rolleyes:

P.S.
What is the reson for the 90 second rule?!?

Please stop complaining about the 90 second rule. They don't plan to change it, and I honestly don't blame them. Constant and annoying complaining is not going to help, and might actually make things worse. :p

We're not done. First of all, Blackheart is claiming that it was Eru, not a Vala, who did it. Though I might have some problems with the concept, I think it's theoretically acceptable. The Valar, however, clearly do not have the power to do such a thing. :)

Val... it still holds, I think, that as far as I know (will have to check up on it later), we only have one instance where an oath included the name "Eru", and in this case, it was said that they swore even by Eru... And I've mentioned that twice, so I'll quit with that particular argument now... :p

It is an interesting thought, but I'm not convinced that oaths were usually sworn to Eru. You'd think that after the First Age, they'd have learned to do away with oaths altogether... :rolleyes: :p

[Blackheart]

LM - perhaps Denethor would not invoke the name of Eru in that oath because of his OWN rebellion... his unwillingness to step aside for the Man who would be King. ;) Note that the oath is one of loyalty to the Steward... not to the King himself.

I did not think enough about this to be convinced of it... it was just a passing thought. What do the rest of you think? :)

Actually that's a damned cogent point...

[Valandil]

... You'd think that after the First Age, they'd have learned to do away with oaths altogether... :rolleyes: :p

What - just like we've learned to do away with things like oppression, slavery, war, etc?? :p

[Valandil]

This is weird... I wasn't able to get to the third page of this thread to see my last post. Plus - from the directory, this is shown to have 39 replies, which would be 40 posts - but when I check who posted, it totals 41 posts. And, like I said - it showed a third page, but I couldn't get to it.

It seems like this happened before to me. Were the rest of you able to get to page 3 before this? (can we even get there NOW? I'll soon find out! :p )

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i wasnt able to see yur top post at all

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Nor was I. It said You had the last post but the last one I could see was Blackheart's.

[Valandil]

BH - I would suggest that Wayfarer probably means that he was the Priest of Iluvatar to the Dunedain... by extension perhaps, to all men.

Actually though - Elendil was still top dog at this time. It's apparent that he had not yet fallen and that Isildur did not have the Ring when he received the Oath at Erech - for otherwise the Men who swore the Oath would have no opportunity to break it, since at that time, Sauron was evidently defeated and the trouble was past.

It seems that the Oath was the thing. It may have helped that Isildur had some sort of royal standing... it may have been something special about the Stone of Erech - but the taking of the Oath seems to have been the key.

Something just occured to me about this - so I tracked down this old thread.

Even though the Oath was made to Isildur at the Stone of Erech before the war at the end of the Second Age - perhaps Isildur consequently made a follow-up curse as to their fate, while he had The RING in his possession. He could have done this from afar, while brooding over the losses of war at Osgiliath - or, even better, he could have made a trip back to Erech, called the leaders of the oath-breakers together and pronounced his curse on them, backed up by the power of the Ring.

Since these men had formerly worshipped and served Sauron, a curse like this, in response to their failure to keep their oath, might have sealed their fates. The one laying down the curse held in his possession the Ring, which was to some extent the very embodiment of Sauron and his power.

[Serenoli]

On the definition of an oath being something that requires a divine witness - I don't think Tolkien ever stuck to that. Someone has already mentioned the case of the oath of Feanor, where taking the name of Eru was an 'even'

Also to the point is Tolkien's own letters, where he mentions that he wanted his legendary world to be outside of the Christian world even if he himself was a staunch believer. I believe he said something on the lines of 'Myth and fairy-story must reflect and contain parts of moral and religious truth or error, but not explicitly as in the real world.' That's one of the reasons he has the Valar, who are gods in the sense of pre-Christian mythology, but have no place in the Christian world. To me, there is then no need to see medieval practices of taking oaths - in Tolkien's world, Eru's name really seems enough to condemn them from leaving Arda.

Valandil If the potency is due to the power of the Ring and a result of the previous worship and service in the name of Sauron - how would Aragorn have the power to undo such a curse, even if he held their oath fulfilled? Would it not then be Frodo, the Ring-bearer, who could undo it, or only the destruction of the Ring which could accomplish it?

[Valandil]

I think the greatest part of the undoing came from the response of the oath-breakers... keeping their oath on their second chance, even after so long. It took the right time, the right person to require it of them, and the right circumstances (another fight against Sauron). Aragorn spoke their release as Isildur's Heir, but only when they had met Isildur's conditions... in a sense.

[Alcuin]

Just passing through… overwhelming busy (thank Heaven!), haven’t looked in for months… can’t stay.

A few things.

Númenóreans regarded their kings as priest-kings. The Biblical archetype, with which Tolkien was familiar, would be Melchizedek, king of Salem (Jerusalem), who “was a priest of God Most High (http://www.usccb.org/bible/genesis/14:18)” to whom Abraham made sacrifice. From Letters #156,

Elendil … and his sons Isildur and Anárion, … established a kind of … Númenor in Exile…, the friendship of the Elves, the knowledge of the True God, … the yearning for longevity, and the habit of embalming and the building of splendid tombs – their only “hallows”: or almost so. But the “hallow” of God and the Mountain had perished, and there was no real substitute. Also when the “Kings” came to an end there was no equivalent to a “priesthood”: the two being identical in Númenórean ideas. … [T]here had been a “hallow” on Mindolluin, only approachable by the King, where he had anciently offered thanks and praise on behalf of his people; but it had been forgotten. It was re-entered by Aragorn, and there he found a sapling of the White Tree, and replanted it in the Court of the Fountain. It is to be presumed that with the reemergence of the lineal priest kings … the worship of God would be renewed, and His Name (or title) be again more often heard.


But I am uncertain that Isildur wielded the authority to pronounce such a dreadful curse upon the Men of the Mountains (Elendil was almost certainly still alive when Isildur cursed them, meaning that Elendil was the “priest-king”, not Isildur), nor even if he had, would have dared to use it in such a way.

So let’s consider another avenue.

As regards the Stone of Erech, it must indeed have been quite peculiar, of especial importance to the Númenóreans. (Valandil and I have posted elsewhere on this subject.) Tolkien described it as “a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground.” (RotK, “Passing of the Grey Company”). It was therefore 12–13 feet (3.7–4 m) in diameter, and must have been immensely heavy and unwieldy, on the order of several tons. That Elendil, Isildur, Anárion, and the Faithful Númenóreans with them should have considered it so valuable that they would haul it aboard ship – which might have been quite dangerous, since they were exiled to Rómenna, the royal harbor on the east of Númenor, with Sauron nearby in Armenelos and King’s Men watching them constantly – in place of the many other, smaller treasures they might have selected, is indicative of the great worth they attached to the stone. It could have been carved from the top of Meneltarma, for instance, since its description might indicate that it was volcanic in origin; but we should consider whether the stone was quarried and shaped in Valinor or Eldamar. This last is my personal opinion; the only supporting evidence I can cite is that Tolkien originally conceived of the Stone of Erech as one of the palantÃ*ri, which were of course from Eldamar. (HoME VIII War of the Ring, “IV Many Roads Lead Eastward (1)”)

More importantly, however, the Dead Men of the Mountains had refused to fight because “they had worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years.” (RotK, op. cit.) Sauron was a necromancer: from Morgoth’s Ring, “Laws and Customs among the Eldar”, “Of Re-Birth and Other Dooms of Those That Go to Mandos”, there is a discussion of one spirit unlawfully possessing the body of another

To attempt to master [the souls of deceased Elves] and make them servants of one’s own will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant. … It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.

Certainly the barrow-wights spring immediately to mind! But also the Dead Men of the Mountains: It may well be that their own false religion trapped them: Unwilling to give up their worship of Sauron, to break ties with “Sauron the Base Master of Treachery” (as Gandalf names him), they became ensnared by their own religious practices.

This last seems most appropriate to me. Here is the solution I propose:

Sometime in the first half of the Second Age, the Eldar bring an enormous stone, their handiwork, from the Uttermost West as a gift to their friends the Dúnedain of Númenor.
Just before the Downfall of Númenor, Isildur and his friends remove the stone from its resting place and somehow haul it aboard one of their ships.
After landfall in Gondor, Isildur and his friends place the stone in a prominent position well inland. (One similar, perhaps, to its old position in Númenor?)
The Men of the White Mountains swear allegiance to Isildur, promising to fight with him against his enemies, placing their hands on the stone (from the Uttermost West!) in witness of their oaths.
Sauron returns and makes war upon the exiled Dúnedain. The Men of the Mountains break their oaths to fight for Isildur.
Isildur curses them, binding them to their own necromantic religion that they themselves have chosen to keep instead of their oaths until they are able to repent.
Aragorn summons them to Erech.
The Dead Men repent, fight for the Heir of Isildur, and fulfill their oaths, so ending their allegiance to Sauron. They are set free from Sauron’s necromantic religion.

I might add in further support of this that 550 years earlier, the Dead Men of Dunharrow had not repented one whit. In his essay "Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor" (published in Vinyar Tengwar 42), Tolkien wrote (italics mine),

The special horror of the closed door before which the skeleton of Baldor was found was probably due to the fact that the door was the entrance to an evil temple hall to which Baldor had come, probably without opposition up to that point. But the door was shut in his face, and enemies that had followed him silently came up and broke his legs and left him to die in the darkness, unable to find any way out.

There, that is my tale. Others might be devised.

(Now I’ve spent far more time here than I should have. Best to all!)

[muddlewait]

Hello. New here. Very good discussions.

I'm not sure why there need be much resistance to the idea that the Ring, being an obvious immediate source of supernatural power rooted in cruelty, treachery, and domination, helped give Isildur's curse teeth just because he wasn't wearing it when the not-yet-Dead Men swore their oath. Spitefully cursing oathbreakers seems a very Ring-y thing to do, and, based on the text Alcuin quotes, messing with spirits was to some degree within Morgoth and Sauron's pervue, perhaps moreso because of the Dead Men's prior worship of Sauron.

Interestingly, Isildur worded his curse carefully enough to keep the bonds it created tied to himself and his line rather than the Ring, and while said phrasing didn't help him personally, it did, by giving his heirs rather than the Ring's current master ownership of the curse, inadvertently help undo the Ring's own evil. This kind of dynamic may actually help explain how Sauron retained so much of his power, and the "loyalty" of the Ringwraiths, after the loss of the Ring: many of the bonds Sauron created with it may have been similarly worded or otherwise designed to keep his slaves from being free of his influence even if he could no longer wield the Ring directly.

I would guess that, had the Ring been involved in the curse and were it somehow destroyed without the Dead Men first being freed, they would have been released (if perhaps slowly) from the curse after the fact, since what had been wrought with it would have then been undone.

Anyway, it seems to me that the Ring's power is perfectly suited to using a once-honorable, now-broken oath as a reason after the fact to cause centuries of suffering to an entire race, and it also seems like Tolkien's worldview would allow for such an action to eventually, in a roundabout way, contribute to the Ring's own destruction.

[NewOne21]

It's tolkens world... I gess it's the ring...

[Olmer]

At the time of the curse Isildur did not have a slightess idea about an existance of the Ring, and the ring was happily sitting on a finger of his rightfull owner - Sauron.

So, no. No evil ring was involved. Just ex-numenoreans themselves.
They were too reluctant to acknowledge that way back during happy days upon living in Numenor they, too, have learned some ways of sorcery from the very best friend and counsellor of their king, not just the cursed black numenoreans.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I do not recall that it is clear exactly when Isildur cursed them, and it might well have been after the victory, when he had the ring. Recall that his path did not approach the white mountains during the war. At the sudden outbreak, he was defending Minas Ithil, and when it was lost, he went down the Anduin and by sea to Arnor, while Anarion held Osgiliath. He then marched with the Host of the last alliance from near Amon Sul in Arnor, accross the Misty Mountains, and down the Anduin vallley to the Dagorlad, never comming near the White Mountains. I believe it most likely he applied the curse, after the war, during his sojuron in Gondor after the war.