Lord of the Rings Discussion Project: Book III ch. 1 and 2 Pt. 1

[Forkbeard]

The Departure of Boromir:

When last we left the company, Frodo and Sam had crossed the river Anduin and were among the Emyn Muil on the Mordor side. We had hints that all was not well among the remainder of the Company, but nothing substantial. This chapter opens with Aragorn ascending to the seat at Amon Hen to discern there things for himself and to find Frodo. Aragorn sees nothing, but is interrupted by the blowing of Boromir's horn and the sounds of battle below him. He rushes down and finds Boromir sitting against a tree, apparently sleeping were it not for the arrows sticking out of him. Aragorn believes him to be dead, but on taking his hand, Boromir opens his eyes. With his last breath, Boromir informs Aragorn of what happened, his attempt to take the Ring from Frodo, his repentance, and the capture of the hobbits by orcs. Boromir's last statement is a request/command that Aragorn go and save his city, for he has failed. Legolas and Gimli come upon the scene moments later to find Aragorn mourning Boromir.
As they examine the scene the note that there are orcs from the North, Moria probably, orcs from Mordor, and orcs bearing a White Hand among the dead. Aragorn after deliberation guesses that these are probably from Isengard and Saruman. The three discuss what is to be done and how to do it, and it is decided that before chase is given Boromir's remains must be taken care of; and the easiest way to achieve this and yet still remain respectful is to commit him to the river. They convey his body and such weapons of his fallen enemies as they can carry back to the river, retrieve the boats (only 2, the third is missing). They then send Boromir and the weapons in one boat down the river. Aragorn and Legolas sing a dirge for Boromir.

The companions then return upriver to Parth Galen where they had camped and Aragorn began tracking and piecing together events. He guessed, and was later confirmed in, that Frodo had tried to go into Mordor alone, not wishing to have anyone die or be tempted by the Ring. He could not however leave Sam behind, so Sam was with him. So with the 3 of them standing there, Boromir and Gandalf gone, that leaves Merry and Pippin in the clutches of the orcs. Legolas and Gimli leave the decision to Aragorn who decides that the Ring and Ringbearer are beyond their help now, but Merry and Pippin are not. So they begin their pursuit of the orc force across Rohan.

The Riders of Rohan

The 3 Hunters begin their pursuit. Early at dawn on the second day of the chase, the hunters discover two orc bodies cruelly hacked--Aragorn guesses that there was disagreement about the road to take, and that there can be little doubt now that the troop is headed to Isengard. As they come to the eastern wall of the Emyn Muil and enter Rohan proper, Legolas sees an eagle far off and very high, seemingly heading northward. There is speculation as to whether this is the same eagle seen in book I and what its mission is. Not finding an answer, the chase continues. Not far into the day as they cross the plains of Rohan, they find a trail that breaks away and then stops, surrounded by orc boots. And among the prints is a pin of Lorien, the beautiful leaf that clasps all the Company's cloaks. Aragorn, based on the size of the footprints, thinks Pippin may have broken away and left the leaf for anyone who might follow--a very hopeful sign. They rest that night, and the third day brings nothing but league after weary league of following a trail growing increasingly cold. Aragorn notes in passing that the land is strangely silent--no animals of any kind, much less humans. They rest again the third night. On the morning of the fourth day, Legolas expresses his fear that the orc force has reached Fangorn; Aragorn remarks and Legolas and Gimli confirm that they feel some sort of force working against them that saps the will of the heart more than stops the body--a force emanating from somewhere ahead of them, not Sauron behind them. Saruman. His treachery is becoming clear and evident. They began the fourth day in urgency--Legolas feeling that they were "called." Toward mid-day they reach the downs that begin the approach to the mountains and the gap of Rohan. They come upon the top of a hill where the orc troop rested awhile and then proceeded, and Aragorn notes how old now that trail is. But they continue onwards. As the day ends, the sleep atop a green down, as the fifth day dawns, they see coming toward them a troop of riders, the sun glinting off their spear points.

[Forkbeard]

They wait for the Riders on the side of the hill. The eored has nearly passed them by when Aragorn stands and announces their presence, seeking news. The eored quickly surrounds them, and the challenge is given: each side identifies themselves, and Eomer, as he hears and sees a man descended from Elendil, an elf of Mirkwood, and a dwarf chasing orcs across Rohan, expresses an ill and ignorant opinion of the Lady of the Wood. This causes Gimli to defend her, and Legolas to draw his bow. The end of the Company is nigh. Aragorn steps in, averts the near fatal altercation, and relates as much of the Company's business as he deems wise. He asks for tidings of the hobbits only to hear that no such beings were found among the dead orcs, which by the way, the eored had engaged in battle the night before, defeated, and burned the corpses after despoiling them. Eomer must now choose what to do: obey the law of his king and take the three back to Edoras (and surely cause a fight that will end ill for all), let them go, let them with assistance. He chooses the latter course, exacting a promise that the three show themselves to the king as soon as chance allows, a promise Aragorn gladly accepts. The 3 hunters now ride following the orc trail to the battle/burn site carefully looking for any sign of the hobbits. They search far and wide over the battlefield without success until light fails. They set up camp near a large tree standing apart. Gimli decides to start a fire, but is warned to cut no living limb from any tree--he doesn't need to since the Riders have left plenty after the pyre. Here several things of note occur that set up the next chapter: the tree, as Gimli notes, is glad of the fire and seems to be warming itself over it; they see an old man with a large hat that they eventually take to be Saruman coming to discover what has become of his hobbit quarry, and the horses bolt--out of fear at "Saruman" or not is debated. The night passes slowly.

Discussion Points:

1) The hints of the White Hand and the journey away from the river suggest a new level of Saruman's treachery. Other than Gandalf's capture, have there been other hints of the depth and direction of Saruman's plan prior to this?

2) Is Boromir's repentance sufficient?

3) Did Aragorn make the right decision?

4) The eagle that they see, what do you think it is doing? Tolkien mentions it twice, once in Book I, and now here.

5) How has the death of Boromir and the choice laid on him changed Aragorn?

6) Are there unexpected elements to Gimli's character that come out in this chapter?

7) The tree at the end of the Riders chapter: tree or ent?

8) The old man at the end of the Riders chapter: real or phantom? Saruman or Gandalf or other?

9) If Saruman to #8, why didn't he do something about them--he after all had the power of his voice if nothing else, and at this point he had plenty of "else"---and he certainly should have been alerted to something when a man, an elf, and a dwarf are traveling together near that battlefield. So what explains Saruman's lack of action here?

10) Reused scenes: the final scene of the Riders chapter parallels what other scene from book I? How does this inform how this chapter is to be understood?

11) These two chapters are interrupted at various points by songs: what do you make of the poetry/songs here? How would you compare it to previous poetry in LoTR? Does it enhance your reading or detract from it? Why or why not?

12) I'm with Eomer: that distance on foot in that short of time is nothing short of amazing. Strider indeed is no fit name! Is this heroic hyperbole on Tolkien's part?

I'll probably post more discussion questions. And if you don't mind I'll probably post some developing commentary on the chapter----someday I want to publish my own commentary to LoTR or an annotated LoTR for teaching it to literature classes. So over the two weeks for these chapters I'll post some of the commentary and would appreciate feedback. In the meantime, here it is, hope you enjoy it. Now I'm off to fix dinner for guests!

Sincerely,
Forkbeard

[The Wizard from Milan]

7) The tree at the end of the Riders chapter: tree or ent?
Well, I am not sure whether I have understood how fangorns work, but I think that besides ents there are hurons (sp?). I am unsure whether there is a third level of sentience in fangorn besides ents and hurons (not counting the intermediate levels of ents that are going treeish...)


8) The old man at the end of the Riders chapter: real or phantom? Saruman or Gandalf or other?

The only thing that we know for sure is that in a later chapter Gandalf denies it was him. Aragorn though seems convinced that it is not Saruman either (his point that the hat is not a hood is suttle enough to be convincing). So I don't know

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

someone else the old man was?

eonwe was he perhaps?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

nice intro, BTW forkbeard!

i think the tree was a huorn

[Beren3000]

Thanks for your time, FB! :)
2) Is Boromir's repentance sufficient?
I would remind you that he didn't just say: "I'm really sorry I did that to Frodo.", he fought and killed about 20 (I think) orcs to protect Merry and Pippin. I think that's more than enough to make up for a moment of weakness.
3) Did Aragorn make the right decision?
Good question!
You can say that he made the right decision in hindsight; however, at that time, I don't think he made the right decision. After all, Frodo's quest was of the essence and (IMO) a leader should have sacrificed the lives of Merry and Pippin for the greater good. That said, Aragorn could track the orcs but he couldn't have tracked Frodo, so his chances of finding Frodo again were minimal so.... :confused: Good question, indeed.

Sorry, nothing more to add!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Great intro FB

1) The hints of the White Hand and the journey away from the river suggest a new level of Saruman's treachery. Other than Gandalf's capture, have there been other hints of the depth and direction of Saruman's plan prior to this?
I think so. Remember on Amon Hen where Frodo sees 'Wolves issuing from Isengard' implies that he is commanding an army with which he intends to do more than just destroy Rohan. Also just the fact that orcs are on the West side of the River says something. Mordor was east of the River and Isengard west so this IMO shows that Saruman is issuing orcs at his own will not at Sauron's command.

2) Is Boromir's repentance sufficient?
I think so yes. As Beren said he didn't just say 'Oh yeah sorry about that thing with Frodo: he killed a good number of orcs protecting Merry and Pippin and then repented to Aragorn. Also the mere fact that he toold Aragorn shows that he was truely sorry.

3) Did Aragorn make the right decision?
IMO yes, he did. There was little chance of finding Frodo and Sam. Also I think that seeing what happened to Boromir he didn't want that to happen to himself and that he thought that he could be a danger to Frodo.

[Valandil]

Picking and choosing:


2) Is Boromir's repentance sufficient?


Yes! Some have commented on the Orcs he slew in protection of Merry and Pippin, however - I don't think that's what made his repentance sufficient. It was sufficient because he had a complete change of heart and was completely sorry about what he had done ("sorry enough to not do it again" - as one definition I've heard - I might add, at least sorry enough to INTEND not to do it again).

Now - his protection of Merry and Pippin was EVIDENCE of his repentance... it was the repentance of his heart bearing fruit in his life. In fact, he became again the great warrior that he was - without the distraction of the Ring. But it isn't the body count of Orcs or even the attempt to fight them that made his repentance valid. A lesser man who tried to save the Hobbits but was slain by the first Orc could have been every bit as repentant. So Boromir's fight with the Orcs was the "fruit" of his repentance - sort of like the passage in James which says that Abraham's faith was made complete by what he did. The attitude of the heart showed itself in the actions of the life.

Also - looking ahead, someone important tells us that Boromir was saved at the last... curious thing to say about someone who was just slain, huh? ;)


7) The tree at the end of the Riders chapter: tree or ent?


Tree or huorn, I think. I get the impression that even the 'regular trees' were more "active" in Fangorn and in the Old Forest than they are in most places.


8) The old man at the end of the Riders chapter: real or phantom? Saruman or Gandalf or other?


Saruman, I think...


9) If Saruman to #8, why didn't he do something about them--he after all had the power of his voice if nothing else, and at this point he had plenty of "else"---and he certainly should have been alerted to something when a man, an elf, and a dwarf are traveling together near that battlefield. So what explains Saruman's lack of action here?


Not sure why. Maybe it was just an appearance of Saruman's 'spirit' or some such - if he could do things like that. Or... maybe he was surprised by all that he saw - had come out to see how his war party was doing in kidnapping some Hobbits, found the remnants of hundreds of them... and then sees just three fellows sitting around the fire - fellows who he (possibly) knew had been among the Hobbits' companions. He might not have known what to think himself... did THESE THREE guys take out all those Orcs??? :eek: Perhaps he was just out gathering information...??? :confused:


12) I'm with Eomer: that distance on foot in that short of time is nothing short of amazing. Strider indeed is no fit name! Is this heroic hyperbole on Tolkien's part?


45 leagues in just under four days on foot would be hard work. Let's see... that's 135 miles - comes to almost 35 miles per day.

Got a better one for you though. After escaping capture from the Shawnee Indians (in 1778 - at age 44)), Daniel Boone supposedly made his way back to Boonesborough on foot in four days... and that was 160 miles! He had no provisions with him and had to cross the Ohio River even though he couldn't swim (I think he found either a canoe or a log to cross on). Of course, he didn't have the mind of Saruman bent against him. And he wasn't carrying a sword or axe or anything.

So - what Tolkien has these three do DOES seem to be within the limits of human ability. It's nearing those upper limits though.

[Elanor the Fair]

Wow!! Great discussion points, Forkbeard. I have spent the last few days poring over my books trying to gain a deeper understanding of your thought-provoking questions.

1) The hints of the White Hand and the journey away from the river suggest a new level of Saruman's treachery. Other than Gandalf's capture, have there been other hints of the depth and direction of Saruman's plan prior to this?
Apart from the obvious ones (Orthanc orcs etc.) there is also his subtle suggestion to the White Council that the Ring was "lost" at sea and all could stop concerning themselves with its whereabouts. There was also the crebain - were these spies of Saruman? The weariness that the three "runners" feel - evidence of Saruman's determination to hinder any who would be attempting to pursue the captured hobbits - including servants of Sauron. The unnatural speed of the orcs is also evidence of Saruman's plan to outsmart Sauron. What about the orcs who rescued Gollum. They came from over the mountains. Where they sent by Saruman? If so, how did this help him?

4) The eagle that they see, what do you think it is doing? Tolkien mentions it twice, once in Book I, and now here.
The eagle is a most certainly a messenger - perhaps carrying tidings back to Lorien and Mirkwood.

I'm still preparing my responses to your other questions!!

[Elanor the Fair]

6) Are there unexpected elements to Gimli's character that come out in this chapter?
I'm not sure if these elements are unexpected, but in these chapters Gimli is portrayed as a rather pessimistic fellow.

These chapters are also the first where Gimli starts to show more decision making and to express strong opinions and thoughts. This is where we start to form a more detailed opinion of his character rather than the rather vague one that we previously have. What does everyone else think?

[Earniel]

2) Is Boromir's repentance sufficient?
I'd say yes. Personally I think it was already sufficient when he tripped and fell after attacking Frodo. He then realised what he had done he obiously rued it. He was ashamed of it so that he couldn't even tell anyone until his final hour. He may have seen keeping Merry and Pippin safe as a way to redeem himself and therefore fought to the bitter end. Yet I think, if the meeting between Frodo and Boromir had not taken place, Boromir would still have fought with all he had to prevent the two Hobbits falling into the orcs' hands.

3) Did Aragorn make the right decision?
Yes. It may not have seen that way at the time, but if they hadn't gone after Merry and Pippin, Rohan would never have been able to come to Minas Tirith's aid.

4) The eagle that they see, what do you think it is doing? Tolkien mentions it twice, once in Book I, and now here.
I always thought this particular eagle was scouting for the Fellowship so Gandalf could rejoin them.

7) The tree at the end of the Riders chapter: tree or ent?
I'm going to be difficult and say: Entish tree. :p

9) If Saruman to #8, why didn't he do something about them--he after all had the power of his voice if nothing else, and at this point he had plenty of "else"---and he certainly should have been alerted to something when a man, an elf, and a dwarf are traveling together near that battlefield. So what explains Saruman's lack of action here?
Personally I don't think Saruman could have been there in person. An old man, even a wizard perhaps, could not have disappeared so easily. And I don't think Saruman has 'translocation spells' up his sleeve. He'd have far too many things to take care of in Isengard than to go hiking along Rohan's borders. I think it was only his image, and that could explain why he didn't harm the three hunters. He wouldn't have been able too. And I think Saruman had bigger things to worry about that three odd companions under the eaves of Fangorn.

[Elanor the Fair]

10) Reused scenes: the final scene of the Riders chapter parallels what other scene from book I? How does this inform how this chapter is to be understood?
Well!! This was a very interesting question. After much thought I can come up with some simple parallels.

In book 1, the ponies are scared at the barrows by the presence of danger and they run away to meet Fatty Lumpkin. At the end of the Riders chapter the horses are missing also. A parallel would suggest that the horses ran away from danger and went to meet a friend. I suppose it also parallels the ponies running away from Bree when the inn was attacked.

More complicated parallels exist between the giving (or lending) of the horses by Eomer to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, with the giving of the boats in Lothlorien (although this was in Book 2 and not Book 1). In both instances it was unheard of for the leaders of each land to give such precious items to folk who were not of their kindred. Does this foretell the aid that Rohan may offer to assist in the downfall of Mordor just as the elves of Lothlorien lent whatever aid they could for the same cause??

I thought of another interesting parallel. In book 1, Frodo, Pippin and Sam are concealed in the woods of the Shire when the High Elves come past. As the last Elf passes them he turns and identifies Frodo, the other Elves gather around.

In Rohan, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are concealed as the riders of Rohan gallop past. When they are almost past, Aragorn identifies them and the riders gather round.

There are even parallels with the language in these parts of the text. “Who are you and who is your lord”, Frodo asks Gildor. “Who are you and whom do you serve? asks Eomer of Aragorn.

Gildor also tells Frodo that they are Exiles, and Eomer tells Aragorn that they are absent without the King’s leave.

It is like a reverse parallel. In the shire, three simple folk meet a group of knowledgeable people of High Elven heritage who are in exile. In Rohan, three knowlegeable people of royal heritage (one who has High Elven heritage – albeit a distant one) meet a group of simple people who are also in “exile” – absent without their King’s leave.

Having said this – I have no idea what this parallel would tell us!!! It was the first parallel that sprang to mind when I read Forkbeard’s discussion questions!! - I obviously have very convoluted thought processes, but having spent so much time analysing why this parallel sprang to mind I felt I had to share it with others! :D

[The Gaffer]

Very interesting and insightful. Thanks for a great intro, Forkbeard.

Perhaps another parallel is how the protagonists (and the reader) move from a narrow focus on the affairs of a small group to an awareness of being a small part of a much wider scheme of events.

The hobbits, encountering the Elves and the Riders, become aware that they are part of a much bigger story. The Three Hunters similarly: there are much more complex things going, with the tension between Isengard and Rohan, the internal politics of Edoras hinted at, the incursions of orcs etc.