Grass on Sand Dunes?

[trolls' bane]

I don't quite understand what hobbits live in. I have always imagined that it was regular dirt, and as common sense dictates that that is the only possibility, drawing from the many other descriptions of the Shire, which is usually depicted as mostly grass, hills, trees and low houses. Why then do people in Gondor (and other men) say that "Halflings" live in sand dunes. Or more specifically, holes in sand dunes. I don't have all my books anymore, so I can't quote anyone, but I could swear I read like statements. Anyway, I know that many hobbits live in holes, others in small rounded houses, but where did the men of Gondor and Rohan get the crazy idea that the race they called "Halflings" lived in sand dunes?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

old wives tales and the such like :p

[Embladyne]

Maybe it's just the stigma of living in the ground (and that it implies a certain amount of "backwards-ness" as compared to people who live above ground in "real" houses) that causes the men of Gondor to furthur diminish the Hobbits by reffering to their dwellings as "sand dunes." Or, they perhaps consider it so absurd, that they've embellished the story to make it even more "unbelievable."
Just my thoughts. ;)

[trolls' bane]

Probably true. The whole idea of hobbits seems to the Godorrohrim (spelled wrong :) ) to be old wive's tales. Still, what made the old wives' stories include sand dunes? :rolleyes:

[trolls' bane]

Maybe it's just the stigma of living in the ground (and that it implies a certain amount of "backwards-ness" as compared to people who live above ground in "real" houses) that causes the men of Gondor to furthur diminish the Hobbits by reffering to their dwellings as "sand dunes." Or, they perhaps consider it so absurd, that they've embellished the story to make it even more "unbelievable."
Just my thoughts. ;)
Missed your post.

That seems fit. I guess the only thing that keeps the men of gondor from doing the same to dwarves is that they don't seem to posess the magic to "disappear when some large stupid person like you or me come blundering along making a noise like elephants which can be heard from a mile off"

;)

[Embladyne]

Missed your post.

That seems fit. I guess the only thing that keeps the men of gondor from doing the same to dwarves is that they don't seem to posess the magic to "disappear when some large stupid person like you or me come blundering along making a noise like elephants which can be heard from a mile off"

;)Yeah, dwarves were considerably louder than hobbits...and less sensitive to noise, they would have to be, though, to succeed in the fields of work that they liked....that makes me wonder why they were so good with music :confused: maybe the ones who worked in mining and smithying less were better at playing music...
Also, living in a mountain seems a little more plausible than living in a hill. Although, in the U.S, some settlers in the Midwest would make houses out of sod (umm...imagine peices of lawn cut into large bricks)

[trolls' bane]

The midwest! Does that include southern california? No, I doubt it. I only saw a sod house once.

[Valandil]

I think the sod houses were only on the great plains... some of the parts between the Mississippi and the Rockies - but probably not that entire expanse.

As for the Hobbit - holes:

1. I'm not sure what you mean about the Hobbits living in regular dirt. I don't think there was any dirt left exposed in the hole-homes the Hobbits used. I would think it was entirely covered with stone, brick, wood, plaster or some such.

2. If you just mean where the hole was placed, that was probably a matter of availability. If sand was all there was, a hobbit might well make his hole in the sand.

3. It's entirely possible that early, less advanced Hobbits DID live in plainer holes - just regular holes in the ground, maybe fixed up as much as they could. Doesn't Tolkien tell us that at the time of LOTR, the only Hobbits who still lived in holes were either the richer ones - who made the elaborate hole-homes, and the very poor ones - who lived in regular holes in the ground?

4. As Embladyne has suggested, like most good stories, there could be some misinformation here... some misunderstanding about Hobbits on the part of those who live in Gondor, where there had never been any direct experience with Hobbits - and all that they knew from them was very old information passed down through the years.

:)

[The Wizard from Milan]

I think that what he means is that grass does not usually grow on sand-dunes, other type of vegetation (bushes, thorny "stuff" grows on dunes); I think that what he means is that grass grows best on soil made by drift or debris.

[Rían]

Grasses grow on sand dunes out here, tho (California, USA). Not your nice lawn-type grass, but definitely grasses.

[trolls' bane]

You live in the desert, RÃ*an? By Bermuda Dunes by any chance? Would you ever have happened to wander as far as The Living Desert? :D :p

I am somewhere between both of your points.
As far as I can tell, from descriptions of what hobbits are like and the shire, most of the shire-towns were green grass (like the whole shire was a front lawn), which cannot grow on sand. Also, loose sand (as in sand-dunes) cannot (from what I have seen) stay in a fixed position, else the sand dune would not exist. That is what I am asking. How can hobbits live in sand dunes yet without their holes caving in while they're plastering them (drawing from what Valandil said), and with the grass growing healthy above. By regular dirt, I mean, not gravel, or in this case, sand, but not potting soil either. "Regular dirt" is much more easy to build in, I'm sure, when compared to these other ones. What led the people of Gondor (who descended from a prosperous civilization, despite their decline) to change "regular dirt" and grass to sand dunes?

Sorry if this is unclear. I was sort of going one sentece at a time, so I don't know if it makes sense.

[Nurvingiel]

I don't think there were actual sand dunes in The Shire, I think it was more old wives tales and such as Embladyne and Chrys suggested.

I always got the impression that The Shire was a temperate mixed forest with maybe Podzolic or Brunisolic soils. A lot of the original woodland has been cut down and used as pasture land for many years. I imagine there's a lot of land lying fallow and trees planted on pastures.

[EarthBound]

As a soil scientist I'd agree with Nurv about the shire itself. While the soil may be a sandy-loam, the agriculture was likely well off because of the richer (darker soils (I picture the countryside to be akin to Oregon's River valleys and old Lake valleys that nestle between tall volcanic mountain ranges. Poaciea does grow on Sand, beach sand in fact, or dunes. Matter of moisture (ground, air) since the large pores would drain the water off before the plants could uptake it. Neither here nor there though to the discussion....I think I'm getting cheeky and had better move on...LOL :D

The "tale" of hobbits living in sand dunes could come from when they lived more easterly? And the tale traveled with middle-earth populations as they moved west? I don't know...sigh :confused:

[GreyMouser]

Tolkien says that there were many more Hobbits scattered over Eriador than the ones in the Shire suspected. Given that Gondor didn't seem to have much overland contact with Eriador, but was a major maritime nation, it's possible that fisherman or other mariners came into contact with hobbits on the coasts of Enedwaith and Minhiriath (north of Gondor, south of Lindon) around the mouths of the Isen, Greyflood and Brandywine Rivers, where they could have been living among the dunes- or close enough for seamen's tall tales.

Maybe they were Stoors, and more used to water, and followed the Brandywine down, or crossed directly from the Anduin to the Isen, to find refuge in an isolated, unpopulated and therefore relatively safe area of Middle-Earth.

[Alcuin]

As Embladyne has suggested, like most good stories, there could be some misinformation here... some misunderstanding about Hobbits on the part of those who live in Gondor, where there had never been any direct experience with Hobbits - and all that they knew from them was very old information passed down through the years.There is little doubt about the situation here. Théoden told Merry (Two Towers, “The Road to Isengard�) that ‘…we know no tales about hobbits. All that is said among us is that … the halfling folk … dwell in holes in sand-dunes. …it is said that they do little, and avoid the sight of men, being able to vanish in a twinkling; and they can change their voices to resemble the piping of birds…’These Holbytlan of the folk-tales of Rohan sound very like the leprechauns or “little people� of the British Isles: a story somewhat embellished over time, if not imbued with misinformation from its inception; after all, the very next thing that Théoden observed was that Merry “‘spouted smoke from’� his mouth, a wonderful source of misinformation for generations of Rohirrim to come!

In Fellowship of the Ring, “At the Sign of The Prancing Pony�, Tolkien as narrator says that The Shire-hobbits referred to those … that lived beyond the borders as Outsiders, … considering them dull and uncouth. There were probably many more Outsiders scattered about in the West of the World in those days than the people of the Shire imagined. Some, doubtless, were no better than tramps, ready to dig a hole in any bank and stay only as long as it suited them. I think some of the hobbits that were Outsiders did live in unlined, dirt-floored hobbit-holes, and many of the poor hobbits of the Shire probably did as well. Many of our own, real-world forebears lived in dirt-floor houses for most of human history, covering the floor with rushes and grasses which had to be swept out as it became dirty and decayed; Bilbo’s hobbit-hole was “the most luxurious hobbit-hole ... that was to be found either under The Hill or over The Hill or across The Water� (The Hobbit, “An Unexpected Party�), and so must be regarded as quite exceptional with its “paneled walls, and floors tiled and carpeted�.

“The bricks [removed from the Shirriff-houses] were used to repair many an old hole, to make it snugger and drier,� according to The Return of the King in “The Grey Havens�. This would seem to indicate that many Shire hobbit-holes were not lined with brick, and so had less substantial walls; this might have been particularly true for the older hobbit-holes. (Perhaps hobbits used wooden shoring members to prevent cave-ins of their tunnels.) Note that immediately after the quote beginning this paragraph, Tolkien wrote that One of the first things done in Hobbiton, before even the removal of the new mill, was the clearing of the Hill and Bag End, and the restoration of Bagshot Row. The front of the new sand-pit was all leveled and made into a large sheltered garden, and new holes were dug in the southward face, back into the Hill, and they were lined with brick. The Gaffer was restored to Number Three…That might indicate that Sam’s original home had no brick lining, though this is not definite from the context; however, look at the term that Tolkien uses for the remains of Bagshot Row: a “sand-pit�; and in “The Scouring of the Shire�, he says that “Bagshot Row was a yawning sand and gravel quarry.� I don’t know whether these two passages indicate that The Hill had sandy soil, or that there was sand produced as a result of quarrying, perhaps of limestone or sandstone bedrock.

[trolls' bane]

Wow! Great bump! (Last post towards the beginning of 2005, and I remember posting this! :eek: :D )

Well, I'm not very up-to-date on the discussion thus far, but it seems as though you have quite a bit of evidence I could not have looked up (having only the Silmarillion not in storage).

[Jon S.]

Many of our own, real-world forebears lived in dirt-floor houses for most of human history, covering the floor with rushes and grasses which had to be swept out as it became dirty and decayed.

Yes. That is why the entrance to a home, even today, is called the threshold.

[trolls' bane]

I don't get it. :confused:

[Alcuin]

The piece of wood that goes across the bottom of a doorway, slightly raised from the rest of the floor – that’s a threshold, because it holds the thresh (grass or reeds) in the house so it doesn’t get into the very dirty outside.

Thanks, Jon S. I just couldn’t bring the word threshold to mind when I posted before.

Now trolls’ bane, if you’re interested, there’s a wonderful little (true) story behind the phrase, It’s raining cats and dogs…

[trolls' bane]

I'm interested, as long as it doesn't require any work on my part. :D :cool:

[Alcuin]

Roofing material around the world is traditionally grass or reed. In English, the word for this stuff and the verb for using it is thatch. (Anglo-Saxon þæc, same word pronounced approximately the same way for “roof� or “thatch,� and the verb þeccan, “to [put a] roof [on]� or “to thatch.� It’s related to the modern word deck, which still retains its old meaning “cover.� “To deck� someone is to put them on the floor by hitting them; the “deck� of a ship; “Deck the halls with boughs of holly,� &c.) Thatched roofing is excellent stuff, and a well-thatched roof with good-quality reed can last several decades. The stuff burns, of course, which is a drawback; but the main reason it is only used in more rural countries is that it is time-consuming and expensive to hire someone to thatch a roof: in the less-developed and more rural regions of the world, people’s time is less expensive. (That sounds terrible, but I suppose it must be true.) A well-thatched roof does not readily burn, however (most fires in thatched roofs start around the chimneys, where the embers get stuck and overheat the roofing material nearby); and thatch is warmer in the winter than asphalt or wooden shingling, and certainly warmer than tiles, metal or slate!

Not only were houses thatched, but so were barns, outbuildings, and so forth: it was by necessity the roofing material of choice in the medieval world. On some low-lying buildings, so the story goes, cats and dogs, which were not always welcomed into the house (particularly cats during the Middle Ages), would climb onto the roof because it was warmer there. (Heat rises, and it rose through the roof...) When it rained, however, the thatch would become slippery, and the animals would slide off – hence the turn of phrase.

I’ve seen other versions of the source of the phrase, and attempts to debunk this one. For now, I don’t know the truth of the matter; but I do know that the phrase was used in England in the 1300s, so I think there’s a better chance that this source of the saying is true rather than some of the other explanations offered. I know that some websites and internet pundits claim that this explanation is specious and of recent minting; however, one of my college English professors, himself a medievalist (with a masterful command of Anglo-Saxon), offered us that explanation one afternoon during an autumn downpour in 1978.

[Valandil]

Alcuin - You might have just missed the part from the Christmas song.

I thought it was more correctly " 'Dec' the halls..." - as in, short for "Decorate" - not at all a common usage, but some poetic license taken to allow for the proper metre in the song.

Unless it was an application of the word "deck" with the meaning "cover" :confused:

I wonder what the writer of the song originally intended.

Hmmm... come to think of it, I wonder now about the origin of the word, 'decorate'. :)

[Alcuin]

The word in the song really is “deck,� as in “cover,� although “dec� as a shortened form of “decorate� is hardly inappropriate. decorate is a word unrelated to “deck� (or “thatch�), from the Latin decoratus, past participle of decorare “to decorate,� from decus (genitive decoris) “an ornament,� from the Proto-Indo-European base *dek- “to receive, be suitable.� þeccan and deck are from the Proto-Indo-European base *(s)tog-/*(s)teg- “cover.�

[trolls' bane]

How do you figure all this stuff out!? :eek:

[Jon S.]

Raining cats and dogs should be pretty simple - it was because the feral ones who hid in the sewers had to flee them after rains, right? So when the people came back outside afterwards, lo and behold: lots of cats and dogs.

[trolls' bane]

Raining cats and dogs should be pretty simple - it was because the feral ones who hid in the sewers had to flee them after rains, right? So when the people came back outside afterwards, lo and behold: lots of cats and dogs.
LOL! I would have never thought of that.

[Forkbeard]

Great bump, and a terrific post Alcuin! Let me just add a mundane detail....when the forebears of the Rohirrim would have known the forebears of the hobbits, it would have been before the Rohirrim ancestors moved north and while the hobylta lived yet in the "vales of the Anduin" below Gladden Fields where Gollum and his family lived in holes in or close to the banks of the river. From Tolkien's descriptions the river in the area isn't a fast moving body of water, slow enough to swim in and not worry too much about being swept away and slow enough for the ring to rest without moving for some time. And the "promitive" hobbit holes struck me as being in sandy banks of the river which of course would have wild grass growing on them.

As with much in Tolkien and in ancient and medieval stories he is imitating the boundary between myth and reality is a small one, so my reading here can fit very well with the excellent observations that Alcuin gives.

[Valandil]

Actually - placing things at their proper time, I wonder if it was actually Gollum's forebears who were known to the Rohirrim, rather than the forebears of the Shire hobbits.

According to "Cirion and Eorl" in UT, the ancestors of the Rohirrim went into the Vales of Anduin after a great defeat of Gondor by the Wainriders, in which King Narmacil II of Gondor was slain. According to LOTR Appendix A, Narmacil II died in 1836 of the Third Age. It was just over 140 years later, in 1977 - that the Eotheod moved north to the far upper Anduin, where they remained until Eorl led them down to Gondor's aid in 2510, and when they moved to the land of Rohan itself.

If they met any hobbit-like people while along the Anduin (and not in more ancient times - in Rhovanion or elsewhere) - it must have been between the years 1836 and 1977.

Now the Hobbits: It was way back in ~ 1050 to 1150 that the first Hobbits began to cross the Misty Mountains into Eriador. From there, in 1300 - some migrated west and settled in Bree (from where, in 1601 - some of them would set out to accept the land-grant of The Shire). Then - in 1356, some from the Angle moved back (east - over the Misty Mountains) into Wilderland (these are speculated to be the ancestors of Gollum's people).

So - by 1836, it was Gollum's branch of "hobbits" who lived in the area around Anduin, and the other known groups of hobbits were either in Bree or the Shire.

I guess it's humorous to think that as Merry and Theoden's people began to find things in common - thinking that their ancestors shared a mutual past... it was actually Gollum's ancestors who had that common past with the Rohirrim.

Wouldn't Merry have been surprised. :p

Of course - even those hobbits at the Anduin would have been much like those of Bree and The Shire at their time. Much more than they were like what Gollum became, once the Ring had taken control of him.

[Forkbeard]

Actually - placing things at their proper time, I wonder if it was actually Gollum's forebears who were known to the Rohirrim, rather than the forebears of the Shire hobbits.

According to "Cirion and Eorl" in UT, the ancestors of the Rohirrim went into the Vales of Anduin after a great defeat of Gondor by the Wainriders, in which King Narmacil II of Gondor was slain. According to LOTR Appendix A, Narmacil II died in 1836 of the Third Age. It was just over 140 years later, in 1977 - that the Eotheod moved north to the far upper Anduin, where they remained until Eorl led them down to Gondor's aid in 2510, and when they moved to the land of Rohan itself.

If they met any hobbit-like people while along the Anduin (and not in more ancient times - in Rhovanion or elsewhere) - it must have been between the years 1836 and 1977.

Now the Hobbits: It was way back in ~ 1050 to 1150 that the first Hobbits began to cross the Misty Mountains into Eriador. From there, in 1300 - some migrated west and settled in Bree (from where, in 1601 - some of them would set out to accept the land-grant of The Shire). Then - in 1356, some from the Angle moved back (east - over the Misty Mountains) into Wilderland (these are speculated to be the ancestors of Gollum's people).

So - by 1836, it was Gollum's branch of "hobbits" who lived in the area around Anduin, and the other known groups of hobbits were either in Bree or the Shire.

I guess it's humorous to think that as Merry and Theoden's people began to find things in common - thinking that their ancestors shared a mutual past... it was actually Gollum's ancestors who had that common past with the Rohirrim.

Wouldn't Merry have been surprised. :p

Of course - even those hobbits at the Anduin would have been much like those of Bree and The Shire at their time. Much more than they were like what Gollum became, once the Ring had taken control of him.

Excellent points!!!