What if Arvedui had been granted Kingship?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What do you think would have hapenned if Arvedui had been granted Kingship instead of Eärnil? Would the line of Anarion come to an end? Would battles such as Helms Deep and the Pellenor Fields be fought and won? Would it have had any effect on the Quest of the Ring?

[Earniel]

Ooh, Va-aalandil... :D

Regardless of the possibility of Arvedui receiving the Kingship over Gondor, the line of Anarion wouldn't have ended, since Arvedui's wife FÃ*riel was the last living heir of that line, IIRC.

The history of Gondor and Arnor may have looked very different then.

[Twista]

Ooh, Va-aalandil... :D


:D Haha yes, I think this is only a thread the master an handle..

If Arvedui was given kingship we cannot assume that there would be changes... what was he personality like? The old saying that those from the same blood line will be alike appears many times throughout Tolkien. I think this is a good place to start.

[Radagast The Brown]

:D Haha yes, I think this is only a thread the master an handle..

If Arvedui was given kingship we cannot assume that there would be changes... what was he personality like? The old saying that those from the same blood line will be alike appears many times throughout Tolkien. I think this is a good place to start.I don't think so, as the new king, Arvedui, would rule both Arthedain and Gondor. It would obviously strengthen both kingdoms, and may save Arthedain from falling. Angmar would still be destroyed.. and then, who knows what will be the consequences..? What would happen in Celebratn fields, for example - would Gondor still need the help of Eorl? I don't think they would..

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i thought if he had been accepted, the royal household would have removed to gondor, and that would have been the end of the northern kingdom anyway, :confused:

[Valandil]

I thought I'd wait for an opportune time... y'know, give everyone else a chance to weigh in... :p

What do you think would have hapenned if Arvedui had been granted Kingship instead of Eärnil? Would the line of Anarion come to an end? Would battles such as Helms Deep and the Pellenor Fields be fought and won? Would it have had any effect on the Quest of the Ring?

Why... life would have been better, the air would have been fresher, the grass greener, the children happier and the girls prettier! :D ;)

Actually though - according to Tolkien, maybe it WOULD have been better. Take a look at Malbeth's prophecy about Arvedui at his birth, in Appendix A:

"Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dunedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dunedain arise and are united again."

Sorta implies that things WOULD have gone better if Gondor had chosen Arvedui to be their king after Ondoher. Still though, Malbeth admits that this choice is less hopeful - by which he means, IMO, that it is less likely that Gondor would make that choice.

What would happen next? How would things play out? Well... that would have to be a whole 'nuther story! As it was, the line of Anarion - at least that kingly line, died out with Earnur, son of Earnil. Are you asking if that line would have survived if Arvedui was king? Maybe so (Earnur is then much less likely to be challenged by the Witch-king, and subject to his own king's permission if he is so challenged) - but Earnur never took a wife anyway. It might have mattered to Earnur - but if someone else was king, it may not have mattered much to Gondor.

As for the Ring, and Sauron; well... there was that unseen Hand at work! That Hand would have still worked things toward His own ends... and Sauron would have been defeated, though perhaps by the agency and actions of other characters than those we came to know and love.

Now - stepping outside the story though... in the mythical world of Middle-earth, the rejection of Arvedui by Gondor set certain things into motion which set the stage for conditions over 1000 years later - basically that Arvedui's descendents were wandering troubleshooters - the chief of whom was in position to help other characters of the story at a crucial time. However, from an author's perspective, things happened in the reverse order. There was a need for a helper in the Wild, so Strider came into being. Strider needed a history, so Arnor was born... but Arnor could not be present, so its ruin had to have come about.

Have I totally confused you? Dodged the question?

Anyway... things would have been better! :)

[Valandil]

i thought if he had been accepted, the royal household would have removed to gondor, and that would have been the end of the northern kingdom anyway, :confused:

I think rather it would have just become a reunited kingdom 1000 years sooner. Plus - as someone pointed out... forces from Gondor may have been sent to the North much sooner - and could have annihilated Angmar while Fornost was still intact. Eriador would have been a whole different place. Fornost may have had a governor instead of a king... but the King's Law would have been enforced.

[Valandil]

BTW - if you look at if from Gondor's perspective, there's just NO WAY he would be accepted as their king. Sure, he had married Ondoher's little girl, but that hadn't meant anything before. They may not have even heard of Malbeth, but even if they had, and knew the prophecy he made about Arvedui, they may have just thought he was some looney old wild man from an uncivilized place... or a showman who was trying to promote one of his own.

Earnil was the sensible choice for Gondor. His nearest royal ancestor had been a few generations back, but he WAS a continuation of Anarion's line - and through male descent. PLUS... he had just saved Gondor! It would be a slap in his face to bring some unknown distant relative from the distant north to rule instead of him... just because the northern guys distant ancestor was the older brother of Earnil's distant ancestor...

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

but by the time of the war of the ring, aragorn was the only surviving possible heir.

[Valandil]

but by the time of the war of the ring, aragorn was the only surviving possible heir.

Except that Arador would likely not have been killed by trolls, and Arathorn II would likely not have been killed by an arrow.

In fact, in a different place, with so many different people, Aranarth - son of Arvedui and Firiel, might well have married someone other than whomever he did marry. Likely a lady of Gondor. The whole line would have changed after Aranarth... because certainly not ALL the same marital choices would have been made and all the same children born.

And... even if they had been, Arathorn (probably with a different name - and Arador would have likely died of old age about 30-40 years before the War of the Ring) would have been King of Gondor, and Aragorn would have been his heir.

[Valandil]

BTW... I HATE it when you say one little thing and I have to answer with like five major paragraphs! :mad:






:p
;)

[trolls' bane]

Um, who is Arvedui anyway? Should I know :confused:?

[Valandil]

Um, who is Arvedui anyway? Should I know :confused:?

Ah... I envy you! :) You stand on the brink of a new discovery!! :D

Arvedui was a distant ancestor of Aragorn... the last one who was still a king, before the kingdom was destroyed (by forces of the Witch-King, over 1000 years before LOTR), and whose descendants became wanderers, living in the wilderness instead of in a royal palace.

Arvedui was King of a smaller realm of the Dunedain in the North - and was a descendant of Isildur. Gondor was ruled by Kings descended from Anarion, Isildur's younger brother. At the time of Arvedui, those had been separate kingdoms for about 2000 years.

The question about Arvedui comes up because:
* When Arvedui's father was king, he made contact with the king of Gondor.
* Because of that contact, Arvedui was married to Firiel - who was the daughter of Gondor's king (Ondoher).
* Four years after that, King Ondoher and his two sons (neither with children) were killed in battle, which ended their line. Gondor was saved through the heroic efforts of a general named Earniel, whose great-great-grandfather had been a king (and great-grandfather of Ondoher).
* Because he had married Ondoher's daughter, and their son was therefore a descendant of Ondoher, Arvedui tried to make a claim on Gondor's throne.
* Even when he had been born, a mysterious prophet named 'Malbeth the Seer' had made an interesting prophecy about Arvedui - and this choice that would come to the Dunedain (whether Gondor would take him as king or not).
* Arvedui also used the rationale that he was the direct descendant of Elendil (father of both Isildur and Anarion) - and that Isildur had never intended for the two kingdoms to always remain separate.
* The Council of Gondor ended up choosing Earnil, the general, to be their king - but just as Arvedui's kingdom didn't last much longer, Earnil's line didn't last much longer either.

Anyway TB, ALL that stuff can be found in Appendix A. My first couple times reading LOTR, I didn't even THINK about reading the appendices... the very word makes you think it will just be a bunch of boring stuff. It's actually some very cool background stuff... and just gives a glimpse of how fully well-developed Tolkien's backdrop of Middle-Earth truly was.

So... I suggest you try to read the appendices in the back! Especially Appendix A... which tells a little about the ancient histories of the First Age Elves, of Numenor in the Second Age, and of the Third Age Kingdoms of the Dunedain. It also gives historical information about Rohan and Dwarves.

BTW... I HATE it when you say one little thing and I have to answer with like five major paragraphs!

Oops! I did it again! :p

[Snowdog]

Oops, I did it again!Oh no! Valandil is Brittney Spears?

What if Arvedui had been granted Kingship? He would have gone south to Gondor, the north would have still fallen, and he would have lived for a bit longer maybe?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He would have gone south to Gondor, the north would have still fallen, and he would have lived for a bit longer maybe?
Why do you thonk that the NOrth would have fallen? IMO I think he'd send reinforcments to Arnor before Eärnil did as it was his realm.

[Snowdog]

I think Eärnil did all he could have to get a army up north as soon as he possibly could after getting word of need. The communications time would still be the same from Arthedain to Gondor whether Arvedui was in either Arthedain or Gondor.

[Valandil]

I think Eärnil did all he could have to get a army up north as soon as he possibly could after getting word of need. The communications time would still be the same from Arthedain to Gondor whether Arvedui was in either Arthedain or Gondor.

It's a matter of priorities though. If Arvedui had been made king after Ondoher, he would have had nearly 30 years in which to gather forces and take out Angmar. Something tells me it would have been higher on his "TO DO List" than it was on Eärnil's.

Yes - communications speed was the same - instantaneous! Don't forget about the Palantiri... ;)

[Attalus]

Malbeth the Seer lived in Fornost, did he not? There is no way that the Gondorians could have learned of his prophesy unless it was reported by an ambassador or travele, and why should they believe him, anyway? The Gondorians of that period seem to me to have been self-centered and somewhat arrogant.