(EE) Witch King vs. Gandalf

[The Wizard from Milan]

In the EE of RotK the Witch King breaks Gandalf's staff.
Why is that? I am pretty sure it is not in the book

[me9996]

diddo

[Elemmírë]

Because Peter Jackson is an idiot. :)

Ugh... don't remind me of it... :rolleyes:

They probably wanted to show the incredible power of the Witch King that Sauron had at his disposal, and ended up missing the whole point.

[ItalianLegolas]

yeahm but doesn't Gandalf have his staff late on?

[Pytt]

He has a staff later on, yes. I think so at least. Peter Jackson has made so much idiotic changes he didn't have to. *arg*

[Elemmírë]

*gently pats Pytt's hand*

Arg. :mad:

[Nurvingiel]

Because Peter Jackson is an idiot. :)

Ugh... don't remind me of it... :rolleyes:

They probably wanted to show the incredible power of the Witch King that Sauron had at his disposal, and ended up missing the whole point.
Could they not have done this by not making the Nazgul out as being incompetant in other part of the movies?
eg. FotR the mounted Nazgul can't catch a running Frodo over a reasonably significant distance (not in book like that) and in TTT at Osgiliath, the Nazgul hovers directly in front of Frodo for a decent period of time, with no one else occupying his attention, Frodo isn't hiding, and no Elves are messing with him. And yet... he does nothing.
I know they're less effective in daylight, but honestly.

/RANT

[Manveru]

well actually Faramir shot that Nazgul just as the fell beast was about to grab him

[Nurvingiel]

Oh yeah. Well, the real Nazgul still would have got him before.

But my FotR comment still stands.

[Tessar]

GAH that change makes me SO MAD!!!!! It just about RUINS the entire movie!!!!


GANDALF KICKS TOO MUCH BUTT TO FALL BEFORE A PUNY NAZGUL-KINGY-THINGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Manveru]

ya its really dumb

[ItalianLegolas]

GANDALF KICKS TOO MUCH BUTT TO FALL BEFORE A PUNY NAZGUL-KINGY-THINGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, Gandalf is a Maia, and the Nazgul are pretty much ghosts of evil Kings of Men. He should be able to take them all, okay maybe not all, but at least 1 or 2.

[Bombadillo]

He fended all of them off with light rays from his staff to protect the Riders of Rohan In RotK. And in the book I think he could have taken at least two at once as well, but he never met them.

What annoys me is that the guy who defeats Gandalf in that scene is later seen being defeated by a random eagle. I know that was in the books, but I think the eagles had a hard time of it either way, and in the movie they were just so unexpected, non-readers still awake at the end of RotK all said in unison "WTF!?"

Eagles shouldn't be better than Gandalf.

[The Gaffer]

non-readers still awake at the end of RotK all said in unison "WTF!?"
Snigger. Should have cut the eagles altogether as there's no way of making it not look ridiculous IMO.

Having just watched the EE, I must add my disdain.

Design and effects, stunning; script and direction witless.

These clumsy and perfunctory attempts at making us go "oo-er, isn't he scary" were just a waste of space. "In rode the Lord of the Nazgul.." is such a groovy, climactic scene from the book, it was just asking to be lifted directly.

And what about Shadowfax, "who alone of the free horses..etc etc", freaking out??

On other matters, Gandalf's staff seems to have been one of a six-pack.

[Rían]

That scene really made me shudder! WHY OH WHY?!?! :mad:

"six-pack" - LOL!

But on a purely horsie note - as one who has spent a lot of time around horses, I interpret Shadowfax's actions as a challenge and a defiance (at least the rearing and neighing part). I really haven't had time to watch it much - maybe he runs away after that part, I don't remember - but at least at first, I think he's neighing a challenge, like a proper cheeky lord-of-horses stallion.

[barrelrider110]

I kept thinking... I shoulda bought the theatrical version. I waited this long for this??? I just had to leave the room and brush my teeth.

Pthoooooo! :cool:

[Durin1]

The scene makes Gandalf's fight wih the Balrog less significant, along with the implications of Saruman having his own staff broken by Gandalf; resulting in the audience's perception that Gandalf has grown in power whilst Saruman is diminished.

Instead, we have Gandalf seemingly being mastered (so easily)by a Nazgul. Another one of those major moments when I thought.. "PJ you stupid prat... are you sure you understand the book?".

[Pytt]

I kept thinking... I shoulda bought the theatrical version. I waited this long for this??? I just had to leave the room and brush my teeth.

Pthoooooo! :cool:

Yes. The EE was good, but waiting for that long? and I said it was good, but it ceartainly had it's flaws, like the others. But that scene really ruined it. What an idiot who directed.. :rolleyes:

[The Wizard from Milan]

The scene [...] diminish[es] the implications of Saruman having his own staff broken by Gandalf;

I agree!! (assuming my "cut" represents what you mean)

[Durin1]

It does! :D

[Gandalf The White Rider]

it actully says in the books 'The White Rider (Gandalf)is more powerful than all the nine black' :) so there you have it Peter!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

He has a staff later on, yes. I think so at least. Peter Jackson has made so much idiotic changes he didn't have to. *arg*
actually, he doesn't have another staff until the grey havens (cirdan must keep spares ;)) in the tomb, it is a (spear thingy gandalf has, that he grabs off a guard, if that is the point you mean, otherwise, like elem, *pat, pat, pat*

[Blackheart]

GANDALF KICKS TOO MUCH BUTT TO FALL BEFORE A PUNY NAZGUL-KINGY-THINGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Jackson made so many mistakes on his departures that it's almost not worth getting upset over them.

I agree that it was a confusing scene, and departed from the plot. But it wasn't nearly as annoying as Denethor's death scene.

Besides the fact that the witch king was mounted on horse and rode in through the front gate of Minas Tirith, and besides the fact that Gandalf was using Glamdring and didn't even have a freaking staff (or spear), the witch king was not a foe to be taken lightly.

He was a badass, particularly since he had just been invested with a huge boost of necromantic and sorcerous powers from the ceremonies at minas morgul.

If he and Gandalf HAD actually fought, I have no doubt that tolkein would have considered the outcome to be in doubt up to the very last second of the fight.

Instead we got Jackson's witch king swooping in on a flying steed and attacking at the very citadel, and shattering a non-existent staff. It WAS a rather dramatic visual, I can't argue with that, but it makes absolutely no sense plotwise.

Not when you try to reconcile it with the book, and not even within the movie!

I mean, if the witch king was THAT confident, why didn't he and the Nazgul just land at the citadel and invest the city from the top down!?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

[scouse accent]cam down, cam down[/scouse accent] ;)

a proper fight between the two of them would have been great, but meh!

[The Palantir]

I read the books, and isn't there something about Gandalf being the most powerful being you would ever meet in Middle Earth, unless you were brought before the throne of the Dark Lord?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes there is, in the chapter 'The White Rider'. Also what would Gandalf be doing going to some place in Minas Tirith that leads to absolutley nowhere, when he was meant to be saving Faramir?

[Blackheart]

I read the books, and isn't there something about Gandalf being the most powerful being you would ever meet in Middle Earth, unless you were brought before the throne of the Dark Lord?

Most powerful? hmm... That's arguable. You'd be better off rephrasing that. Most Dangerous? perhaps.

But the Witch King at that point was pulling power directly from some kind of sorcerous link. Gandalf certainly didn't seem overconfident about having to face him....

[CrazySquirrel]

I don't understand one thing : WHY has PJchanged the scene at the Gates as it is in the book? No one could ever make a better script. It might have been the best scene in the movie. Instead, some poor staff-breaking inventions.
Another thing. In the book Wikkie is on a horse, so when he hears horns, he has to ride to where his fellbeast is left, change to it and go attack Eowyn. And he attacks her shortly after the attack has begun.
In the film, when he is with Gandalf, he is on his fellbeast already, so he could be on Teoden in seconds. Instead he is away throughout all the attack and through all the olifaunts slaughter! He could have flown to Mordor and back in this time...

[Gordis]

An intersting observation, CrazySquirrel! And very true. Want some fun? Read this:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2195364/1/

[Nurvingiel]

An intersting observation, CrazySquirrel! And very true. Want some fun? Read this:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2195364/1/
Bwahaha! :D Hilarious! Did you write that?

[Gordis]

Bwahaha! :D Hilarious! Did you write that?
Oh, no, regretfully not. I would have loved to have such talent, but helas!
I have no idea who this Kingmaker is, I just liked the story told from the Witch-King POV.

[durinsbane2244]

Most powerful? hmm... That's arguable. You'd be better off rephrasing that. Most Dangerous? perhaps.

But the Witch King at that point was pulling power directly from some kind of sorcerous link. Gandalf certainly didn't seem overconfident about having to face him....

I can back up the palantir here, it does say most powerful, and the dark lord WITH HIS RING! and, stupid ol' pj made gandalf scared of the witch king, in the book (true story) he woulda fought him if pippin hadnt come along.

anyway, my 1st post!!!!!!!!!!!
whoo hoo!

[CrazySquirrel]

An intersting observation, CrazySquirrel! And very true. Want some fun? Read this:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2195364/1/
Oh! I spilled mu coffee all over the screen!
Thanks!!!

[CrazySquirrel]

Istupid ol' pj made gandalf scared of the witch king, in the book (true story) he woulda fought him if pippin hadnt come along.
Yep, he would have fought him, even if he were scared. And in the book he was .. well not exactly scared, but apprehensive and not sure of the outcome (see the scene with Denethor)

[durinsbane2244]

all right