seven times the years...

[mallondwen]

The Voice of Saruman
'The Watchwood we will call it. Not a squirrel will go here, but I shall know of it. Leave it to the Ents! Until seven times the years in which he tormented us have passed, we shall not tire of watching him [Saruman].

ok, I am wondering, why 'seven times the years in which he tormented us?' I mean, I know that Saruman had been cutting down the trees for about eight months by then, cause he started about the time that he imprisoned Gandalf which was in July, it was now March. It hasn't even been a year yet. So I guess my question is: Is this just a metaphor Treebeard is using to imply 'a very long time' or, is it literal? If so, why this time period, 'seven times the years in which he tormented us'...?

Any thoughts are most welcome.

[Embladyne]

I always assumed that was some sort of entish ideosyncracy. arg...cannot spell.
However, it is similar wording to the phrase seventy times seven, which is used in the bible to refer to a very large amount of things, or time. And, so, perhaps, Tolkien drew inspiration from that phrasing... :confused:

[Wayfarer]

Saruman had already began cutting down trees before gandalf was captured - he had simply left the trees within Isengard itself standing in order to maintain the illusion of normalcy until he was ready to spring his plans.

[Bombadillo]

Maybe, since random numbers were placed in ancient dialogue in key parts of the Bible that could not possibly have been quoted accurately, Tolkien decided to do something similar to emphasize the legendary proportions of the Ents' glory (or he intended it to sound like Frodo making this distinction while recording his journey). I doubt it, but that would be cool.

[ItalianLegolas]

probably just implying a very long time, annd to ents, a long time is a very looooooooooooooooooong time indeed

[Manveru]

well in the book of revelations in the bible 4 signifies the world, 6 imperfection, 7 totality or perfection, 12 israels tribes or the apostles, and 1000 is immensity.

[Embladyne]

Yeah, I really love the symbolism of numbers in the bible...and I think Tolkien wanted to apply some of that symbolism and coolness to the Ents...

[Nurvingiel]

If Treebeard meant that literally, about 7 (EDIT: because he had tormented them about 1 year) years is a very short time for an Ent. If he meant it symbolically, why 7?

Ironically, Saruman talked his way out not too long after that.

[Blackheart]

Reference the book of genisis, regarding the punishment of Cain...

And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Seven is the number of secrets and magic...

[Rían]

What was that Gilbert and Sullivan song with "fifty-fold"? Now it's bugging me!

[Rían]

Oh yeah, I think it's something like "We'll seek a penalty - fifty fold! For General Stanley's stooorrrrr-y!" from Pirates of Penzance.

[Forkbeard]

If Treebeard meant that literally, about 7 (EDIT: because he had tormented them about 1 year) years is a very short time for an Ent. If he meant it symbolically, why 7?

Ironically, Saruman talked his way out not too long after that.
Symbolically, 7 indicates fullness, completenessm fulfillment and the like.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Symbolically, 7 indicates fullness, completenessm fulfillment and the like.
so basically, until the fullness of time has elapsed?

[Durin1]

Or it could be that we are reading too much into it :)

[mallondwen]

I had thought of the Bible references myself but I was not sure if Tolkien was thinking along those lines when he wrote it, but perhaps he was, who knows. Thanks for the input everyone.