Sir Gawain and the Green knight

[Beregond]

On one of the other threads someone meantioned the story of Sir Gawain and the green Knight does anybody know who he is or what the stary is about :confused:

[brownjenkins]

Sir Gawain (http://www.lib.rochester.edu/CAMELOT/sggk.htm)

[Insidious Rex]

It was a medieval romance with rather complex mythological undertones. It was an attempt to use pre-christian archetypes incorporated into a "new" christian world to make commentary about faith, nobility, bravery, honesty, chastity and temptation. It uses classic archetypes like the female as the seducer which is a common theme in both christian and pre christian traditions. It also incorporates the very pre-christian notion of the immortality of plant based nature and the spiritual importance of the hunt while weaving it together within the purely medieval framework of The Quest.

Umm… hope that helped…

[inked]

Beregrond,

There is a translation by Tolkien with introduction and notes that may help. It is found in the collections of works by Tolkien and usually references another translation of his PEARL.

[ItalianLegolas]

its a knights of the round table sort of thing, and i inked, you took the words right out of my mouth

[Nurvingiel]

Discuss Arthurian legends here (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=9998)!

[Lenya]

I've only heard it mentioned in connection to Tolkien so I thought he wrote it. Who did write it?

[Valandil]

*calls for moving truck*

*loads thread*

*moves to appropriate forum* :)

[Khamûl]

I've only heard it mentioned in connection to Tolkien so I thought he wrote it. Who did write it?
We don't know. Whoever wrote it also wrote a poem called "The Pearl" (if I'm remembering World Lit I correctly), so the poet is known as "The Gawain Poet" or "The Pearl Poet".

[Nurvingiel]

Wasn't it originally written in Welsh? Tolkien is among many translators of this verse, and probably the best known.

Vaaaal, merge with the Athurian Legends thread pleeeease. *whines*
:D

IIRC this is the oldest Arthurian Legend known to date. Odd that Arthur himself is barely in it - only the beginning and the end. (Though he is a bit of a catalyst by insisting that someone go on an adventure.)

[Valandil]

Vaaaal, merge with the Athurian Legends thread pleeeease. *whines*
:D


Nah... this is special in that there's a Tolkien-component. So I'll keep it separate. :)

[Rían]

I plowed thru it (the Tolkien version) but it's pretty thick ... some good, some bad, but didn't really grab me.

It was a medieval romance with rather complex mythological undertones. It was an attempt to use pre-christian archetypes incorporated into a "new" christian world to make commentary about faith, nobility, bravery, honesty, chastity and temptation. It uses classic archetypes like the female as the seducer which is a common theme in both christian and pre christian traditions. It also incorporates the very pre-christian notion of the immortality of plant based nature and the spiritual importance of the hunt while weaving it together within the purely medieval framework of The Quest.
Oh my GOD, IRex, all you do is yak about christianity! ;)

[Nurvingiel]

Alright... if you insist Val... :p

Ri, here's a great retelling of this legend, by Gerald Morris.

A Squire, His Knight, and His Lady (http://www.lilypadbooks.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/scstore/p-SquireKnight.html?L+scstore+ggki4500+1106284196) is a sequel to A Squire's Tale (http://www.lilypadbooks.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/scstore/p-SquireTale.html?L+scstore+ggki4500+1106287991).

They are completely brilliant, great for all ages. :)

EDIT: It's "A Squire, His Knight, and His Lady" that's the retelling of "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight".

[inked]

Currently available:

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight/Pearl/Sir Orfeo by Ballantine Books with Preface by Christopher Tolkien. The Introduction, translations, and notes are by JRRT as best constructed and available. I highly recommend this for Tolkien fans as it gives insight into the translator's professional life and interests and the works themselves are enjoyable and thought-provoking.

I have wondered at the association of the Green Knight and the entity known as "the Green Man" in pre-Christian Britain. Can any enlighten me on a connection or lack thereof? :D

[Insidious Rex]

Oh my GOD, IRex, all you do is yak about christianity! ;)

well theres very few agnostic medieval romances that would allow me to babble on and on about the wonderfulness of agnosticism. ;) And anyway the mingling of early christianity with pagan beliefs to make a sort of proto-christian literature stew is always interesting to explore.

I have wondered at the association of the Green Knight and the entity known as "the Green Man" in pre-Christian Britain. Can any enlighten me on a connection or lack thereof? :D

From what I understand the archetype is very familiar if not one in the same. Not that the green knight is exclusively the embodiment of the classic celtic green man figure but that he embodies some of the aspects of the more generic ideal. Specifically the fact that you can cut his head off and he grows right back. Obvious symbolism there. And theres countless myths from all cultures involving death and rebirth of a human figure representing the life cycle of plants. This probably dates back to the very genesis of the domesticating of agriculture.

But in this tale we see a merging of this ancient pagan green man figure with the chivalrous noble god centered ideal of medieval knighthood. A strange combination to us now but perhaps the perfect transitionary vehicle for telling the message the poet wants to tell. And we are chance witnesses to this moment of transition.

[inked]

IR,

Thanks for the info. Would you give consideration to the idea (very Tolkienish) that Christianity was in the process of subsuming by fulfillment the pagan mythologies? In its baldest and boldest form it asserts that the pagan illuminations understood by the falling of the Light onto pagan minds was gathered back from prismatic refraction into the Light of the World, Christ Jesus, and the true Source of Illumination revealed to be the Logos. the contention of both Lewis and Tolkien was that was the case, which is why they so willingly and well use the mythologies.

And, I acknowlege the great, insuperable difficulty of an agnostic finding a romance satisfactory to their purposes! :cool:

[Khamûl]

Wasn't it originally written in Welsh? Tolkien is among many translators of this verse, and probably the best known. My world lit book says that it was composed somewhere in the northwest midlands of England, near present-day Birmingham. Would that make it more likely to be in Welsh? I want to think that my professor said that it was written in either Old or Middle English.

[Lenya]

We don't know. Whoever wrote it also wrote a poem called "The Pearl" (if I'm remembering World Lit I correctly), so the poet is known as "The Gawain Poet" or "The Pearl Poet".

Cool, maybe I should read it. Thanx.

[sun-star]

My world lit book says that it was composed somewhere in the northwest midlands of England, near present-day Birmingham. Would that make it more likely to be in Welsh? I want to think that my professor said that it was written in either Old or Middle English.

It was written in Middle English. They don't speak Welsh in Birmingham, and I don't think they did in the 14th century either :D

I keep meaning to read it (Tolkien's version of course) but I have too much Old English at the moment...

[Nurvingiel]

I have wondered at the association of the Green Knight and the entity known as "the Green Man" in pre-Christian Britain. Can any enlighten me on a connection or lack thereof? :D
IIRC these two individuals are one and the same.

[Rían]

well theres very few agnostic medieval romances that would allow me to babble on and on about the wonderfulness of agnosticism. ;)
I agree - but did I make you laugh? :)

[Khamûl]

It was written in Middle English. They don't speak Welsh in Birmingham, and I don't think they did in the 14th century either :D I didn't think that Welsh was spoken much outside of Wales, but then again, my knowledge of England is not the most extensive in the world.
:p

[Jabberwock]

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight was written in the west-midland dialect of Old English. We read it in the original alongside modern English for a graduate English class on Arthurian lit in university. I like it. It wasn't tolkien's translation we read though. It is, as others here hint at, essentially a vehicle for describing those attributes which make up the ideal chivalrous knight. Gawain loses a contest to the Green Knight and has to go in one year to let the Knight cut off his head. He does, sort of. He gets lost and inadvertantly ends up in the Knight's house, not knowing it's the knights house. The knight's wife secretly puts Gawain through several little tests in order to demonstrate his various virtues. He fails on a few like bravery and ends up being spared by the Green Knight. It's about as interesting as reading Chaucer but with little of the humor. However, if you ever want to know what was expected of a knight within the code of chivalry, this book would be a good place to start for all you aspiring authors out there.

[strider8]

I Just Finished Reading That Its Great Isnt It :D

[durinsbane2244]

jabberwock has the story down pat,
but gawain backround:
say some welsh mentionings, and it is a welsh name, and i believe he was from wales (not sure). but he was a member of the round table, named himself the knig's man, was the greatest knight after lancelot, and was the lady's knight, sworn to defend all lady's because once he ignorede one's cry
for help at her husbands peril, so she killed herself.

[Jabberwock]

Yep, and please please please don't watch that movie King Arthur. It's freaking horrible. Well, Kyra Knightly is kinda hot so it does have one redeeming quality. For a better story involving Gawain and the gang read White's The Once and Future King, the only modern arthurian fiction worth calling a classic (but don't watch the Disney version of book one).

[durinsbane2244]

sweet pie itself thank you jabberwock!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D
THAT MOVIE IS CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i wont go into detail, but any arthur reader can see the obvious flaws i saw from only trailers! i refuse to watch the crap!

[durinsbane2244]

i apologize, even though this thread is hardly read, that is not gawains story i said, that was king pellinore, but gawain was the ladys knight, he didnt give mercy to a knight and when he went to kill him the guys wife jumped inthe wasy and gawain decapitated her cuz he couldnt stop his swing, sorry!

[sun-star]

I just read it and enjoyed it. The Green Knight figure is very interesting from the point of view of combining pagan and Christian myths, as is the alliterative metre. I liked the opening bit of context putting Arthur's Britain into a mythical lineage, and the evocation of the natural world - especially the part about the passing of the year:

After Crystenmasse com þe crabbed lentoun
Þat fraystez flesch wyth þe fysche and fode more symple;
Bot þenne þe weder of þe worlde wyth wynter hit þrepez,
Colde clengez adoun, cloudez vplyften,
Schyre schedez þe rayn in schowrez ful warme,
Fallez vpon fayre flat, flowrez þere schewen...
etc.