LoTR Discussion project; Book II Chapters 7 and 8

[Artanis]

The Mirror of Galadriel

This chapter begins with the arrival of the Company in Caras Galadhon, the great Elven city in Lórien, where the inhabitants dwell up in the trees. It is a city full of light, even at night, and there is song. There is a feeling of 'magic' about the land.
Lórien and Rivendell are both Elvish dwellings, and they are both influenced by Noldorin culture. How would you describe Lórien compared to Rivendell?

Here we are introduced to the Lord Celeborn and the Lady Galadriel. When Aragorn tells the full tale of Moria, Celeborn loses his head and attacks Gimli, holding the Dwarves responsible for waking up the Balrog from sleep. What to me is more interesting is that he also picks on Gandalf, for being so foolish as to enter Moria, but this he does with care, maybe because he knows who Gandalf really are:And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.And Galadriel is not less careful in her answer:'He would be rash indeed that said that thing,' said Galadriel gravely.I think Galadriel shines in this scene. With her wise and understanding words and her knowledge of the Dwarven-tongue she wins the corteous love of Gimli the Dwarf, and with a few well-formulated sentences she makes Celeborn repent of his rash words:Do not repent of your welcome to the Dwarf. If our folk had been exiled long and far from Lothlórien, who of the Galadhrim, even Celeborn the Wise, would pass nigh and would not wish to look upon their ancient home, though it had become an abode of dragons?So speaks an Elf that has once lived in Valinor, but are now in exile in Middle-Earth. But to Celeborn it was probably a reminder that he in short time may find himself in a situation where even Lórien is invaded by the enemy.

We have then the scene where Galadriel is testing each of the members of the Fellowship. This part has been discussed in length in this thread (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=11367).
Do you think Frodo sensed her lust for the Ring already at this point? Is that why he thought her to be perilous? And, I wonder if Boromir had sensed it too, and that that was part of why he mistrusted her so much?

I also think Aragorn was wrong when he says this about Galadriel:There is in her and in this land no evil ... No place in Middle-Earth is completely without an evil ingredient. Galadriel and Lórien are no exceptions. As Galadriel says: The evil that was devised long ago works on in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands or falls.There is a markantly change in the relationship between Gimli and Legolas. Legolas is among his own here, many of the Elves living in Lórien were Silvan Elves. But he chooses Gimli the Dwarf as his companion on his walks around the land and among his kin, building a strong friendship between them.
This change in the relationship between Gimli and Legolas took me by surprise the first time I read the book. Why this change, what has led up to it?

Again Frodo reveals another side of himself, when he recites his own-made poem in memory of Gandalf. But then, he is after all closely related to Bilbo.
The interesting thing is that the verses seem to take shape in his head, springing out from his sorrow, almost outside his will, but when he tries to put them into words he more or less fails. What are your thoughts on this?

Sam and Frodo have their little convo about the Elves, and the land. Sam is really hitting the nail on the head here: Now these folk aren't wanderers or homeless, and seem a bit nearer to the likes of us: they seem to belong here, more even than Hobbits do in the Shire. Whether they've made the land, or the land's made them, it's hard to say, if you take my meaning.He's got a good point, Lórien is to the Elves much as the Shire is to the Hobbits, they love their dwelling place, and they do not leave the land unless they have to.

Then Galadriel takes Frodo and Sam to look in her mirror. It is Sam who takes the first look, letting his curiosity speak louder than his fear. His visions is about what his heart is full of: Frodo, and the Shire. Frodo on the other hand gets visions about Gandalf and Bilbo, and then Gondor, and then a hint about the Grey Havens. And finally, the Eye of the Enemy appears.
Why did Galadriel take Frodo and Sam to look in her mirror? It was dangerous for them, she herself has to save them from the peril of their visions. Was this yet another test, similar to the one at the welcome? Or was it her way of educating them?

But there is a backlash for her, she is herself being put to a test. To take the Ring offered to her or not. She passed the test. But imo the main question here is: Why did Frodo offer her the Ring? And would he really have been able to give it away?

[Artanis]

Farewell to Lórien

The time has come of departure from Lórien, and the company is put to one last test: They must decide whether they should leave the Quest and remain in Lórien, or go forward. Aragorn knows that he must decide too, on behalf of the Fellowship, which course to take next. Celeborn gives the valuable gift of boats, which allows Aragorn to delay his choice for a few days. On the day of departure other gifts are given: Lembas, the waybread of the Elves, and the silken cloaks with the brooches, and the silvery ropes made of hithlain. These are all gifts that will be of importance on the Quest. They are also a certain sign that the guests are "high in the favour of the Lady".

Haldir returns to be their guide once more, and he leads them to the Elves' harbour, and after packing their goods the Company are urged to try out the boats before their departure. While they are paddling slowly up the Silverlode, the white swan ship appears with Celeborn and Galadriel. Galadriel is playing her harp and singing a beautiful but immensely sad song about the inevitable loss she and all the Elves in Lórien soon will suffer.
I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.I was thinking of Sam's words: "Whether they've made the land, or the land's made them, it's hard to say" I think Galadriel's song is a strong indication that she made the land. Another indication is her gift to Sam, as we shall see later. Your thoughts?O Lórien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day;
The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away.
O Lórien! Too long I have dwelt upon this Hither Shore
And in a fading crown have twined the golden elanor.
But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?This is so sad. Galadriel knows that Lórien as it is on that day will not survive whether Frodo succeeds or not. The Elves are fading and their presence in the world is swept away by the flowing River of Time. (Here I was reminded of the Athrabeth, where Finrod speaks about the slow-footed but persistent hunter. :) ) The last two lines of the song is about her personal doom. I think this is a very strong indication that she did not expect to be able to return to the West.
What are your thoughts when you read this poem?

The Fellowship are now invited to eat with the Lord and the Lady at a parting feast. Frodo is more interested in Lady Galadriel than the food. There in the last end of Egladil upon the green grass the parting feast was held; but Frodo ate and drank little, heeding only the beauty of the Lady and her voice. She seemed no longer perilous or terrible, nor filled with hidden power.Why has Frodo's perception of Galadriel changed so much? Or is it SHE who has changed, and he who has always seen her as she really is?

Celeborn speaks to them about their journey onwards, and shares his knowledge of the lands beyond the Great River. He also speaks a warning about Fangorn, which Boromir does not pay much credit to. It is notable that Boromir is all too willing to believe the stories he has heard about Lórien, but he dismisses warnings about Fangorn as 'Old wives' tales'

Then there is the gift giving scene. Aragorn is given a sheath for Andúril, but the real gift for him is the Elessar, the green stone. The whole conversation between him and Galadriel is so loaded with meaning, but my favourite is this from Aragorn:`For the gifts that you have given me I thank you,' he said, 'O Lady of Lórien of whom were sprung CelebrÃ*an and Arwen Evenstar. What praise could I say more? 'Sam receives a little box with earth from Galadriel's garden, and Frodo is given the Light of Eärendil caught in a phial. They are both exceptional gifts that will play a significant role later on in the story. Exceptional is also the gift given to Gimli. With his courteous request he receives from Galadriel what even Fëanor did not: Three strands of her golden hair.
Why do you think Gimli was the only one of the Fellowship that Galadriel had not already prepared a gift to?
Do you think she gave the gift to Gimli gladly? "And how shall I refuse"...
And, what thoughts went through Celeborn's head at that moment? :D
Compared to these gifts, the belts given to Boromir, Merry, Pippin, and even Legolas seem small and insignificant. Why is that so? Are they held less in esteem?

At last the Company is ready to leave. As the boats bear them away from Lórien, Galadriel sings again, but this time in Quenya. "Ai! Láurië lántar lássi sûrinèn" ... It is interesting to notice that even if Frodo does not understand the words at that time, "they remained graven in his memory", "as is the way of Elvish words". Maybe even more so with Elvish songs. The power of song and the spoken word again.

Gimli is devastated from leaving, and his words are saying much about how he feels:`Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord. Alas for Gimli son of Glóin! 'Gimli is showing wisdom with these words. The danger of light and joy! I absolutely love the little talk that follows between him and Legolas. So many profound thoughts there. (PJ, did you never read this part??? :mad: :rolleyes: ) The grief that Gimli now experiences is well known to Legolas. As an immortal Elf Legolas fully knows the sorrow that comes from loss in a world where death is ever present, but for him an unstained memory is at least a comfort. (Athrabeth again :) ) Not so for Gimli the Dwarf. My thoughts go also to what Elrond said at the council: (Paraphrasing) "It would be better if the 3 rings had not been made."

I wonder what Boromir felt about leaving, he who did not want to go into Lórien in the first place:And now we must enter the Golden Wood, you say. But of that perilous land we have heard in Gondor, and it is said that few come out who once go in; and of that few none have escaped unscathed.'
`Say not unscathed, but if you say unchanged, then maybe you will speak the truth,' said Aragorn.Who speaks nearest the truth? How has Lórien changed each of the members of the Fellowship?

[Artanis]

A few notes:

When I wrote my intro I didn't realise that the posts would turn out so long. I hope you have reached this post without falling asleep on the way. :D Yet there are things I'd like to discuss which I have left out because they involve material from other books than LotR, such as Lórien compared to Doriath, the relationship between Celeborn and Galadriel, perception of the flow of Time (or lack of) in Lórien, and the implications of Galadriel's rejection of the Ring on her fate. I plan to start separate threads for some of these issues.

Galadriel's song of Eldamar has been recorded by The Tolkien Ensemble, on their album "An evening in Rivendell". Definately worth a hearing. :)

Ted Nasmith has made a lovely picture of the departure from Lórien. It is from that picture I've got my avatar. You can see it here: Swan (http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pictures/fantasy/Tolkien/swan.jpg)

The floor is now yours. Thank you. :)

[Durin1]

An excellent post, Artanis! :)

I haven't got the book to hand while I am posting so I'll have to go by memory...

1. Lorien and Rivendell - I think Sam summed it all very well. Also, It seemed that the Galadhrim were more "at home", because their natural love of trees and woods was deliberately enhanced by Galadriel who prevents the decaying of the land, which to the Elves was a grief; through the power of her Ring. Rivendell, on the other hand doesn't seem to have that much emphasis on their own landscape, though, of course, it WAS enhanced too. Possibly Elrond used his Ring for more practical purposes, such as within the actual Last Homely House.

2. I think Tolkien showed, through Boromir's fear and paranoia, the natural tendencies of Men in those times i.e. late in the 3rd Age, of the estrangement of those two races, especially Men from the South.

3. The friendship between Legolas and Gimli did seem surprising, but the possible trigger for this could have been Celeborn's comment and Galadriel's tactful rebuke.

... i will post more later - no time at present! :rolleyes:

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

an excellent intro, artanis, unfortunately i am at college, so reply will have to wait till later

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Great intro Artanis

I don't have much time now but I will reply later but there is one thing I really want to pick up on.

Yet there are things I'd like to discuss which I have left out because they involve material from other books than LotR, such as Lórien compared to Doriath,
Farewell to Lorien makes me see Galadriel as Melian's apprentice so to speak. With her power Lorien becomes the fairest elven dwelling on ME just as Doriath was and she also give the Company lembas which was firs given form Melian to Beleg.

[The Gaffer]

There are lots of things to discuss, and that was an excellent intro, Artanis.

Do you think it would be a good idea to take the topics one at a time? You've picked out so many good ones that it would be a shame if they got lost by the wayside.

[Artanis]

Farewell to Lorien makes me see Galadriel as Melian's apprentice so to speak. With her power Lorien becomes the fairest elven dwelling on ME just as Doriath was and she also give the Company lembas which was firs given form Melian to Beleg.Yes. :) I saw your comment about Lórien and Galadriel compared to Doriath and Melian in another thread and thought it was a great observation. But Doriath and Melian is out of scope in this project, so I wanted to start a new thread on the issue, if you don't beat me to it.
Do you think it would be a good idea to take the topics one at a time? You've picked out so many good ones that it would be a shame if they got lost by the wayside.Yes, that might be a good idea. Start from the beginning then? What do other people think?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Lórien and Rivendell are both Elvish dwellings, and they are both influenced by Noldorin culture. How would you describe Lórien compared to Rivendell?
I'd say Sam's comment about the elves of Lorien belonging in Lorien more than the Hobbits in the Shire applies more to Lorien than it does to Rivendell. Also Rivendell is more open to other races eg. men than Lorien is.

Do you think Frodo sensed her lust for the Ring already at this point? Is that why he thought her to be perilous? And, I wonder if Boromir had sensed it too, and that that was part of why he mistrusted her so much?
I wouldn't say Galadriel lusted for the Ring. I'd say lust applied more to Gollum and that Galadriel desired the Ring. If he did sense this though, he'd probably also sense the part of Galadriel that didn't desire the Ring and was content with the way things were.

This change in the relationship between Gimli and Legolas took me by surprise the first time I read the book. Why this change, what has led up to it?
I'd say his words to Galadriel affected Legolas' view upon Gimli
Yet more fair is the living land of Lorien, and the Lady Galadrielis above all jewels that lie beneath the earth.
I think Galadriel also made Gimli think that elves aren't the way that he possibly viewed them before.

The interesting thing is that the verses seem to take shape in his head, springing out from his sorrow, almost outside his will, but when he tries to put them into words he more or less fails. What are your thoughts on this?Probably that it is easier to express things in your own mind than it is to tell other people aloud because the thoughts are your own and no one else can heaar them but when you speak them out loud they are no longer your own and it can be easier to keep them to yourselves where to you they seem complete.

Why did Galadriel take Frodo and Sam to look in her mirror? It was dangerous for them, she herself has to save them from the peril of their visions. Was this yet another test, similar to the one at the welcome? Or was it her way of educating them?
I think it was more for Frodo than it was for Sam. Perhaps she thought that he was best to be prepared for some of the horrors that he would expierence on his journey.

Why did Frodo offer her the Ring? And would he really have been able to give it away?
I'm not sure why Frodo offered her the Ring. He was at thw council and knows that any who wield it turn evil as he reminds Boromir later on but I think that he was so amazed by her beauty and wisdom that he thought that she could be above the evil power of the Ring and wield it for good.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What are your thoughts when you read this poem?
It makes me really sad, not so much the content of it but the way it's written, it's so beautiful.

Why has Frodo's perception of Galadriel changed so much? Or is it SHE who has changed, and he who has always seen her as she really is?
I'd say both. I think Frodo's perception of her changed after offering her the Ring anfd he now knew she was more powerful than she seemed but I think it changed her to, she now knew that she would be returing over the Sea.

Why do you think Gimli was the only one of the Fellowship that Galadriel had not already prepared a gift to?
Do you think she gave the gift to Gimli gladly? "And how shall I refuse"...
And, what thoughts went through Celeborn's head at that moment? :D
Compared to these gifts, the belts given to Boromir, Merry, Pippin, and even Legolas seem small and insignificant. Why is that so? Are they held less in esteem?
I think she didn't prepare one for Gimli because there is not much in Lorien that a dwarf would be much interested in. I think she did give it gladly because of the way he asked for it. He didn't just say, "Yeah, one of your hairs would be good." He was gracious about it. I think one word that would have crosse Celeborn's mind would have been 'cheek'. He proboably thought that if Feanor a great elven lord could not get one, a dwraf certainly wouldn't. i don't think Boromir, Merry, Pippin and Legolas were held in any less esteem. I think Legolas would have een overjoyed with a great bow of the Galadhrim, Merry and Pippin would be pleased with anything form the Lady and Boromir's fate was interwoven with Merry and Pippin's it would be fitting for them to have such closely related gifts.

[Pytt]

Great intro.

Why did Frodo offer her the Ring? And would he really have been able to give it away?
as TD says, I think he is stunned y her knowledge and beauty. And I also think he actually could have given it away. since he ask, I think he really means it. as far as I remember, Frodo didn't ask anoyone after Rivendell if they wanted the ring. the ring have probably not infected him so much.

Originally Posted by Gaffer
Do you think it would be a good idea to take the topics one at a time? You've picked out so many good ones that it would be a shame if they got lost by the wayside.
I think so. it will not get so messy, I think. I have actually started doing the opposite, :o but for further discussion, I think that would be smart.

[Fat middle]

Excellent both intros Arty! :)

Begining from the end...
Galadriel's song of Eldamar has been recorded by The Tolkien Ensemble, on their album "An evening in Rivendell". Definately worth a hearing. :)
Indeed! :) When I was reading the poem in your second post that music inmediatly came to my mind. It fits perfectly with the lyrics :)

And now, following Gaffer's suggestion, to the begining...
This chapter begins with the arrival of the Company in Caras Galadhon, the great Elven city in Lórien, where the inhabitants dwell up in the trees. It is a city full of light, even at night, and there is song. There is a feeling of 'magic' about the land. Lórien and Rivendell are both Elvish dwellings, and they are both influenced by Noldorin culture. How would you describe Lórien compared to Rivendell?
Again, excellent description of the city: full of light even at night (the light of the stars but as they shone in the elder days, at the awakening of Elves) and full of song.
However, I'm not sure about "influenced by Noldorin culture". Although Galadriel was a Noldo, her people was not. They were green elves, weren't they? I see Noldorin culture more related to crafts like sword-making, jewel-making... ad green elves more dedicated to teach trees how to speak elvish :p I see Lorien more nature-based than Rivendell.

Second point: Celeborn. He was a jerk at that sumes all possible discussions about him. He didn't deserve his wife :D

[The Gaffer]

Yes, agreed that it's a great description.

In comparison with Rivendell, Lorien is definitely more "of another world". There is a strong sense of stepping "out" of normal time and of that sense deriving from a Power in Caras Galadhon.

The hobbits have a similar experience of losing track of time in both places, but it's much more pronounced than in Rivendell.

There are strong hints that Lorien represents a living memory of the Eldar Days, which would account for this difference.

We know from the Appendices that Lorien falls back into the mundane world after Galadriel departs, so I think we can be sure that this derived from her use of the Ring.

In which case, it may well be "Noldor" in its flavour.

This should also explain one of those things that had always slightly confused me: why Lorien is so mysterious and forbidding to other "good" folks such as the Rohirrim and Gondor. It has to be so to preserve the secret of the Ring.

[Artanis]

However, I'm not sure about "influenced by Noldorin culture". Although Galadriel was a Noldo, her people was not. They were green elves, weren't they? I see Noldorin culture more related to crafts like sword-making, jewel-making... ad green elves more dedicated to teach trees how to speak elvish :p I see Lorien more nature-based than Rivendell. The people in Lórien were a mixture of Noldor, Sindar and Silvan Elves, according to UT. Didn't the surviving Elves from Eregion flee to both Rivendell and Lórien, and established dwellings there?

I think that Celeborn and Galadriel sought to educate the Silvan Elves in Lórien and make them more 'Beleriandic'. But Oropher and his small group of Sindar who migrated to Mirkwood did the opposite and accustomed themselves to the local culture.This should also explain one of those things that had always slightly confused me: why Lorien is so mysterious and forbidding to other "good" folks such as the Rohirrim and Gondor. It has to be so to preserve the secret of the Ring.Yes, but I wonder if it is also another reason. Perhaps it would be too dangerous for Men to enter this 'pseudo-immortal' land, just as it would be disastrous for a mortal to enter Valinor.Second point: Celeborn. He was a jerk at that sumes all possible discussions about him. He didn't deserve his wife :DPoor Celeborn. To be held in so low esteem. :p

[Fat middle]

The people in Lórien were a mixture of Noldor, Sindar and Silvan Elves, according to UT. Didn't the surviving Elves from Eregion flee to both Rivendell and Lórien, and established dwellings there?

I think that Celeborn and Galadriel sought to educate the Silvan Elves in Lórien and make them more 'Beleriandic'. But Oropher and his small group of Sindar who migrated to Mirkwood did the opposite and accustomed themselves to the local culture.
I thought that the last idea of the Professor eas that Galadriel was the only Noldo in Lorien, but you're probably right. I have my History a bit forgotten. Too much time since I last read that part of UT... :(

[Fat middle]

So speaks an Elf that has once lived in Valinor, but are now in exile in Middle-Earth.
I had never thought of this that way. But you may be right also there. It may well be that the key for the character of Galadriel is her condition of exiled, so many of her lines should be interpreted in that context: Her understanding and care for dwarfs (those who had ruined the house of her beloved Melian) may be a consequence of her conscience of exiled.

But over that conscience there is also the feeling of repentance of some deeds of her long life that have helped the world to reach to the current status of danger and distrust.

[Artanis]

There are strong hints that Lorien represents a living memory of the Eldar Days, which would account for this difference.That was a good description. Rivendell also has memory of the Elder Days, but only as lore. In Lórien the Elves are living inside the memory, so to speak.

I think we can just discuss all the topics when we want to, instead of taking them one by one. There are not that many posters here, I don't think it will get messy.

[Earniel]

A good intro, Artanis! (And not too long to be boring, rest assured ;))

Lórien and Rivendell are both Elvish dwellings, and they are both influenced by Noldorin culture. How would you describe Lórien compared to Rivendell?
The Noldorin influence seems less felt in Lothlórien than in Rivendell, partially because Rivendell has a larger number of Noldor in it's population but also because Celeborn and Galadriel chose a tree as their dwellingplace and did not build a house such as I deem more usual for the Noldor. I think Galadriel exercised the power of her Ring more than Elrond did so that Lothlórien was a sort of time capsule of what had been and Rivendell was more a memory of it.

This change in the relationship between Gimli and Legolas took me by surprise the first time I read the book. Why this change, what has led up to it?
I think it took the insights of Galadriel for them both to change their views. Gimli learned that not all Elves are evil and here a high Elf-lady that understands his feelings for Moria and even knows the Dwarven names. That must have been a shocker... And Legolas sees the kindness Galadriel - who he no doubt much admired - shows to Gimli which for Legolas will have been an indication that friendship between Dwarves and Elves can still exist regardless of the tragedies in the past.


The Fellowship are now invited to eat with the Lord and the Lady at a parting feast. Frodo is more interested in Lady Galadriel than the food. Why has Frodo's perception of Galadriel changed so much? Or is it SHE who has changed, and he who has always seen her as she really is?
I think it is Galadriel who has changed. She has chosen to diminish and remain herself. I think that choice is starting to show and this is what Frodo sees.

Do you think she gave the gift to Gimli gladly? "And how shall I refuse"... Compared to these gifts, the belts given to Boromir, Merry, Pippin, and even Legolas seem small and insignificant. Why is that so? Are they held less in esteem?
I think she gladly gave him those few strands of hair because IMO she liked Gimli's reasons for asking better than those of Fëanor. Gimli wanted them to have a memory of her, Fëanor would probably only have wanted them for their beauty or perhaps because he could make a new jewel with them.

Gimli is devastated from leaving, and his words are saying much about how he feels:Gimli is showing wisdom with these words. The danger of light and joy! I absolutely love the little talk that follows between him and Legolas. So many profound thoughts there.
Which again goes to show that Gimli isn't merely an axe-weilding, grumpy little man. He cares for more things than gold, caves and orc-slaying contests. There's a softy-side :p to this Dwarf that usually gets left out in the fantasy Dwarf stereo types but that Tolkien knows how to bring foreward in places where it matters.

[BeardofPants]

I think it is Galadriel who has changed. She has chosen to diminish and remain herself. I think that choice is starting to show and this is what Frodo sees.

I think that is an important point to consider. When the company first enter Galadriel's realm, there is a perception that she is almost a foe... a competitor for the ring. After she has "diminished", this shifts to a sense of almost "human-ness". There is a definite shift, I think, in Galadriel's approach to Frodo. Although, to be fair, Frodo's perceptions change as well - and the reader alongside him suffers from this. It's an interesting prelude to the downfall of the so-called never-changing realm, don't you think?

[Fat middle]

I'm not sure if this makes sense, but when I was thinking some days ago about the meaning of the end of the song:O Lórien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day;
The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away.
O Lórien! Too long I have dwelt upon this Hither Shore
And in a fading crown have twined the golden elanor.
But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?
I thought that perhaps it didn't mean exactly that there would not be a ship for her, but that somehow she felt herself so bound to Lorien that she couldn't go in any ship and abandon her land.

Although "Winter was coming" to Lorien, Galadriel had been fighting against it with her ring for a very long time, "too long". But taking a ship would condemn her Realm to its final fading. And also there would be no hope for the Silvan Elves that had lived and loved Lothlorien for so long a time.

When the One Ring was finally destroyed she could go to the West, because then her ring was of no use and Lorien will finally fade.

But I'm not sure if this is meant in her song or if I'm putting in it too much. Perhaps it just have to do with the question of her admittance or not into the West by the Valar. I cannot remember well if she had been pardoned for her (small) part in the kinslaying or if her refusal to go West after the defeat of Morgoth had barred again her entrance to the Blessed Realm. :confused: If so, her rejection of the Ring and her "diminishion" would have been what granted the right for her to take a ship.

[Durin1]

Galadriel's lament is based on her desire to leave her (half) self-imposed Exile, although she is unsure whether her wish will be granted. After her test, she finally realises what she has known for a long while: that the time has finally come whereby, whatever happens, the effects of the Rings in Lorien will fade and she will indeed be "diminished".

She selflessly pleas for Frodo to be granted some sort of solace in the West, little realising that these 2 acts are the final arbiters for the Valar to let her return. She basically knows that her time is up.

[Artanis]

Gordy, your take on Galadriel's song is interesting, and I think you're right in that she has come to love Lórien deeply and would not abandon the land or its inhabitants. But I also agree with Durin1, that she longs for admittance into the West, and has done so for a long time. There is also this: In Middle-Earth she has achieved everything that she once desired, and now all of this will be taken away, regardless of the outfall of Frodo's task. Soon there will be nothing left for her in the Hither Lands. Considering this, her rejection of the One Ring is even more impressive.
She selflessly pleas for Frodo to be granted some sort of solace in the West,As is hinted to, I think, by these lines:Namárië! Nai hÃ*ruvályë Válimar.
Nai élyë hÃ*ruva. Namárië!

(Farewell! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar. Maybe even thou shalt find it. Farewell!)

[The Gaffer]

The Mirror of Galadriel

The interesting thing is that the verses seem to take shape in his head, springing out from his sorrow, almost outside his will, but when he tries to put them into words he more or less fails. What are your thoughts on this?

It's those elvish words again, like in the Hall of Fire. There are lots of other examples in LOTR, such as where words heard once "sink deep into the heart" and are recalled many years later.

Songs are part of the fabric that elves use to construct their world. "Elvish dreams" and memory are, to them, like the waking world to us. It seems that they have a profound effect on mortals too.

These days we have to make do with Celebrity Big Brother. :mad:

[Artanis]

It's those elvish words again, like in the Hall of Fire. There are lots of other examples in LOTR, such as where words heard once "sink deep into the heart" and are recalled many years later.

Songs are part of the fabric that elves use to construct their world. "Elvish dreams" and memory are, to them, like the waking world to us. It seems that they have a profound effect on mortals too.Yes. I was thinking that Frodo's spirit was especially receptive to the Elvish lament for Gandalf, and that the Elvish voices was the catalyst which made the grief that Frodo felt to be transformed into lyrics of song. The fact that he failed to repeat his song to Sam is interesting. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but I see here the limitation of communication through spoken words, compared to the communication that may be between spirits.These days we have to make do with Celebrity Big Brother. :mad: :eek:

[Mrs.Gimli]

Farewell to Lórien

The time has come of departure from Lórien, and the company is put to one last test: They must decide whether they should leave the Quest and remain in Lórien, or go forward. Aragorn knows that he must decide too, on behalf of the Fellowship, which course to take next. Celeborn gives the valuable gift of boats, which allows Aragorn to delay his choice for a few days. On the day of departure other gifts are given: Lembas, the waybread of the Elves, and the silken cloaks with the brooches, and the silvery ropes made of hithlain. These are all gifts that will be of importance on the Quest. They are also a certain sign that the guests are "high in the favour of the Lady".

Haldir returns to be their guide once more, and he leads them to the Elves' harbour, and after packing their goods the Company are urged to try out the boats before their departure. While they are paddling slowly up the Silverlode, the white swan ship appears with Celeborn and Galadriel. Galadriel is playing her harp and singing a beautiful but immensely sad song about the inevitable loss she and all the Elves in Lórien soon will suffer.
I was thinking of Sam's words: "Whether they've made the land, or the land's made them, it's hard to say" I think Galadriel's song is a strong indication that she made the land. Another indication is her gift to Sam, as we shall see later. Your thoughts?This is so sad. Galadriel knows that Lórien as it is on that day will not survive whether Frodo succeeds or not. The Elves are fading and their presence in the world is swept away by the flowing River of Time. (Here I was reminded of the Athrabeth, where Finrod speaks about the slow-footed but persistent hunter. :) ) The last two lines of the song is about her personal doom. I think this is a very strong indication that she did not expect to be able to return to the West.
What are your thoughts when you read this poem?

The Fellowship are now invited to eat with the Lord and the Lady at a parting feast. Frodo is more interested in Lady Galadriel than the food. Why has Frodo's perception of Galadriel changed so much? Or is it SHE who has changed, and he who has always seen her as she really is?

Celeborn speaks to them about their journey onwards, and shares his knowledge of the lands beyond the Great River. He also speaks a warning about Fangorn, which Boromir does not pay much credit to. It is notable that Boromir is all too willing to believe the stories he has heard about Lórien, but he dismisses warnings about Fangorn as 'Old wives' tales'

Then there is the gift giving scene. Aragorn is given a sheath for Andúril, but the real gift for him is the Elessar, the green stone. The whole conversation between him and Galadriel is so loaded with meaning, but my favourite is this from Aragorn:Sam receives a little box with earth from Galadriel's garden, and Frodo is given the Light of Eärendil caught in a phial. They are both exceptional gifts that will play a significant role later on in the story. Exceptional is also the gift given to Gimli. With his courteous request he receives from Galadriel what even Fëanor did not: Three strands of her golden hair.
Why do you think Gimli was the only one of the Fellowship that Galadriel had not already prepared a gift to?
Do you think she gave the gift to Gimli gladly? "And how shall I refuse"...
And, what thoughts went through Celeborn's head at that moment? :D
Compared to these gifts, the belts given to Boromir, Merry, Pippin, and even Legolas seem small and insignificant. Why is that so? Are they held less in esteem?

At last the Company is ready to leave. As the boats bear them away from Lórien, Galadriel sings again, but this time in Quenya. "Ai! Láurië lántar lássi sûrinèn" ... It is interesting to notice that even if Frodo does not understand the words at that time, "they remained graven in his memory", "as is the way of Elvish words". Maybe even more so with Elvish songs. The power of song and the spoken word again.

Gimli is devastated from leaving, and his words are saying much about how he feels:Gimli is showing wisdom with these words. The danger of light and joy! I absolutely love the little talk that follows between him and Legolas. So many profound thoughts there. (PJ, did you never read this part??? :mad: :rolleyes: ) The grief that Gimli now experiences is well known to Legolas. As an immortal Elf Legolas fully knows the sorrow that comes from loss in a world where death is ever present, but for him an unstained memory is at least a comfort. (Athrabeth again :) ) Not so for Gimli the Dwarf. My thoughts go also to what Elrond said at the council: (Paraphrasing) "It would be better if the 3 rings had not been made."

I wonder what Boromir felt about leaving, he who did not want to go into Lórien in the first place:Who speaks nearest the truth? How has Lórien changed each of the members of the Fellowship?Ilove the mirrior of GAladrial!