Wraiths

[me9996]

Just for a talk about wraiths, if no one else understands them...

And barrow wights!

[me9996]

Wraiths are as invisable as ringwraiths dispite menny pictures of them...

[me9996]

Will some one plese say something!?!? :( :( :( :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Ezora]

I think the ringwraiths are cool, apart from the fact that they are evil... there is only one problem, in the movie some of the horses look brown!!! oh well...

[Attalus]

Look here (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=11301&page=1&pp=20) for a very full and still active discussion of the Ringwraiths.

[me9996]

Look here (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=11301&page=1&pp=20) for a very full and still active discussion of the Ringwraiths.

Sorry, this is for all wraiths, not just ringwraiths. :D

[ItalianLegolas]

you know, originally there were Elf-wraiths as well as Ringwraiths, there were supposed to be many Elf-wraiths, but they wandered over all Middle-earth and were not under the control of Sauron

[Attalus]

If you refer to the Houseless, as JRRT referred to them in HOME 10, I am not quite sure if they fall under the definition of wraiths as JRRT described them. They are not enslaved creatures bound to a Ring or any magical object, but simply stubborn elves whose fëar have outlasted their hroar.

[ItalianLegolas]

No, i'm talking about HOME 6, somwhere in 'From Hobbiton to Woodyend'

[me9996]

If you refer to the Houseless, as JRRT referred to them in HOME 10, I am not quite sure if they fall under the definition of wraiths as JRRT described them. They are not enslaved creatures bound to a Ring or any magical object, but simply stubborn elves whose fëar have outlasted their hroar. :confused:

No! I mean wraiths like what the lead ringwraith tried to turn frodo into!

Does no one know what I am talking about? :(

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think I do, but where in Tolkien's works does it say that any existed?

[me9996]

I think I do, but where in Tolkien's works does it say that any existed?

Strider said that frodo would turn into a wraith like the ringwraiths but weaker.

That's my evadence!

[Radagast The Brown]

Strider said that frodo would turn into a wraith like the ringwraiths but weaker.

That's my evadence!It doesn't mean that there is one, it means that they could be one. :)

[ItalianLegolas]

i think it would be possible to ahve a Hobbit-wraith... they would just be extremly small!

[Attalus]

A Hobbit-wraith as described would be just as the Nazgûl, as we are informed in the FotR, but weaker and under their control. So, presumably, would be a Man or a Dwarf stabbed with a Morgul-knife that stays in the wound. An Elf, I am not sure. Probably so, but I have my doubts.

[Billy Bones]

What if Gollum was stabbed by a Morgul blade he'd be even more spazy than he already is :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gollum would just become a wraith. Even though the Ring has had an effect on him, he wasn't actually a wraith.

[me9996]

It doesn't mean that there is one, it means that they could be one. :)

Okay so this tread is hipothedacil, heipothread, hiponthreadiskilled, I can't spell but I hope you get the idea. :D

[me9996]

I think this tread is going to go through meny pages before we prove anything about their existence. :(

But I will keep posting as stubern as a dwarf! :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well it's kind of difficult to discuss something that didn't actually exist.

[Embladyne]

hypothetical was the word you were looking for...
Hmm...wraiths as produced by the stab of a nazgul blade?
maybe you should broaden the category of things to dicuss to include other undeadish being such as the barrow wights, and the dead marshes...?

[Attalus]

Excellent point. :D

[me9996]

hypothetical was the word you were looking for...
Hmm...wraiths as produced by the stab of a nazgul blade?
maybe you should broaden the category of things to dicuss to include other undeadish being such as the barrow wights, and the dead marshes...?

Okey, I'll put in the barrow wights. :D
Are there wraiths in the dead marshes? :confused:

[Embladyne]

Are there wraiths in the dead marshes? :confused:
As far as I know, no.
It's just that, to me, wraiths, barrow wights, and the dead marshes all seem to share the commonality of being something that is not quite dead in a very eerie way.

[Tessar]

Me9996, have you read the books, or just seen the movies?

This thread could go a couple of ways, depending on if you're trying to base your ideas on the pure, unchanged books or on how Peter Jackson represented the books.

[me9996]

Me9996, have you read the books, or just seen the movies?

This thread could go a couple of ways, depending on if you're trying to base your ideas on the pure, unchanged books or on how Peter Jackson represented the books.

I've read the books and think they're better!
(Have you seen my Book/movie tread in the movie forum?)

P.S.
100th post! :D

[ItalianLegolas]

I've always wanted to ask this question, so here goes... I know that Barrow-wights are not the same as Nazgul, but as Tolkien first thought of LoTR, appeared very much the same, so, are Barrow-wights in anyway the same as Nazgul, or perhaps distant cousins of the spectral world??

[Elemmírë]

Wow... this has got to be one of the weirdest threads I've read. And that's really saying something.

As long as we're talking about wraiths, what exactly is the wraith-world?

[Sister Golden Hair]

I've always wanted to ask this question, so here goes... I know that Barrow-wights are not the same as Nazgul, but as Tolkien first thought of LoTR, appeared very much the same, so, are Barrow-wights in anyway the same as Nazgul, or perhaps distant cousins of the spectral world??The Barrow-wights were evil spirits from Angmar that infested the Great Barrows after Third Age 1636. Angmar was populated with Orcs, Hill-men, and other such creatures, so the wights could have been any one of these things, I would think.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Wow... this has got to be one of the weirdest threads I've read. And that's really saying something.

As long as we're talking about wraiths, what exactly is the wraith-world?IIRC, the Wraith world was the spirit world. Doesn't Gandalf say something to Frodo about Glorfindel being in both worlds, or that the Elves live in both worlds because they were creatures of spirit?

[Elemmírë]

IIRC, the Wraith world was the spirit world. Doesn't Gandalf say something to Frodo about Glorfindel being in both worlds, or that the Elves live in both worlds because they were creatures of spirit?

That's exactly what I didn't understand about it. Yes, Gandalf does speak of that (I looked it up... the advantage of being in a library :D ). Does this include all Elves or only those such as Glorfindel who had been in Aman?

But what exactly is the spirit world? Or is it just a simplified way of signifying people who no longer had physical presence in the world (such as the Houseless)... or those like the Eldar who would eventually fade and become invisible to mortal eyes? Is that what it means?

[Sister Golden Hair]

That's exactly what I didn't understand about it. Yes, Gandalf does speak of that (I looked it up... the advantage of being in a library :D ). Does this include all Elves or only those such as Glorfindel who had been in Aman?

But what exactly is the spirit world? Or is it just a simplified way of signifying people who no longer had physical presence in the world (such as the Houseless)... or those like the Eldar who would eventually fade and become invisible to mortal eyes? Is that what it means?I think it included all Elves. The spirit world would be exactly that, no solid body. Didn't Glorfindel appear to Frodo as a brightly lit figure, and Gandalf says this is how he appears on the other side? I think you are right on it. The Elves were so very spiritual in their existance and that was why they faded. Somewhere in the Sil it says that they were consumed by their spirits in the courses of time.

[Elemmírë]

I think it included all Elves. The spirit world would be exactly that, no solid body. Didn't Glorfindel appear to Frodo as a brightly lit figure, and Gandalf says this is how he appears on the other side? I think you are right on it. The Elves were so very spiritual in their existance and that was why they faded. Somewhere in the Sil it says that they were consumed by their spirits in the courses of time.

Terms like "other side" and "wraith-world" seem somewhat inadequate to me, but I doubt the hobbit would have appreciated an indepth explanation of the process...

Was that in the Sil? Hm, I'll have to go check later. I know I've seen it somewhere...

[Sister Golden Hair]

From the Silmarillion. Houghton Mifflin Edition. 1977

Immortal were the Elves and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think it included all Elves.
I think it was just those who had seen Aman. I don't have LotR handy right now, but I'm pretty sure that Gandalf said Glorfindel could see him and the Nazgûl because he had seen the Blessed Realm but I will check later.

[Attalus]

We have a discussion going at SF-Fandom about the Wraith-world and how Sam was able to see in it. It seems to be another aspect to Arda, where physical bodies do not appear, and the spirit is percieved in its true character. Remember, the Ring actually spoke to Gollum in the spirit world on Mount Doom. Then, suddenly, as before beneath the eaves of the Emil Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than a shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the firre spoke a commanding voice.
'Begone and trouble me no more. If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

[ItalianLegolas]

Doesn't Gandalf say something to Frodo about Glorfindel being in both worlds, or that the Elves live in both worlds because they were creatures of spirit?

In the original manuscripts, Gandalf says that the Elves in Rivendell dwell in both worlds, and while each world only has half power over them, they have double the power over each world

[The Gaffer]

Another reference in LOTR: the orcs refer to being stripped of their bodies and left naked under the Eye "on the other side".

[me9996]

Wow... this has got to be one of the weirdest threads I've read. And that's really saying something.

As long as we're talking about wraiths, what exactly is the wraith-world?

It's were the wraiths live! :rolleyes:
But otherwise I think that it is alot like this one.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think it was just those who had seen Aman. I don't have LotR handy right now, but I'm pretty sure that Gandalf said Glorfindel could see him and the Nazgûl because he had seen the Blessed Realm but I will check later.

Here it is. From Many Meetings:

And here in Rivendell there live still some of hischief foes: the Elvenwise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both seen and unseen they have great power.

This makes me think what would happen to an elf who had lived in Valinor, if they got stabbed by a Morgul blade.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It's were the wraiths live! :rolleyes:
But otherwise I think that it is alot like this one.
Well when Sam took the Ring off it is described as stepping out of a mist. So it would have been foggy and all thigs out of the wraith world would have been dimeed.

[Blackheart]

Well... to turn the conversation in another direction, what about the men in the paths of the dead...

Wraiths.. or ghosts?

Is there a significant difference?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

From The Last Debate:

Strange and wonderfulI thought it that the designs of Mordor should be overthrown by such wraiths of fear and darkness.

[ItalianLegolas]

This makes me think what would happen to an elf who had lived in Valinor, if they got stabbed by a Morgul blade.

What would happen if they were stabbed by a Morgul blade? Nothing? A mere scratch to them?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Or perhaps they would become only visble in the wraith world and not in the living world.

[ItalianLegolas]

possible...

[Blackheart]

So.. If the oath breakers are wraiths... then there are obviously other wraiths in the world...

The question is, how were they turned to wraiths?

Obviously not by the same means the nazgul were... they were turned by their rings.

And Frodo would have been turned into a wraith either by the power of the one ring, or the morgul spell, or a combination of both... not that it matters to the discussion, in either case there's a ring involved.

The men of the paths of the dead were cursed by Isildur, if you remember...

The question is, was it before or after Isildur aquired the one ring? If it was after then you needn't worry about another mechanism for becoming a wraith, wraithhood always involves a ring somewhere down the line...

Unfortunately for that theory, I think that Isildur cursed the oathbreakers BEFORE he got the one ring...

Which means that... the curse of the King of the Kings of Men (the Dúnedain) can also turn you into into a wraith! Which seems sort of unlikely...

Perhaps (and I think most likely) becoming a wraith is mostly a variation of ghosthood, brought on by regret, self loathing, and hatred. If you notice, the ghosts of the oathbreakers couldn't actually physically harm anyone. Terror was their only weapon.

Unlike the Nazgul, who's primary weapon was terror, but they could physically touch you. Perhaps the rings they wore provided them with a method of physically interacting with the material world, even though they were mostly on the "spirit plane".

Which means that if Frodo had become a wraith, he would have lost the ability to interact with the material world once the one ring was wrested from him... leaving him just a formless tormented ghost...

[ItalianLegolas]

wow, now thats food for thought, I think your right about the curse before he obtained the ring, for some reason it just sounds like it would make more sense

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well Isildur cursed them to have no peace until their oath was fulfilled. But one curse couldn't stop men from dying, for if it did then the Men of Numenor would have cused each other in the times of Ar-Pharason, so they could never die. And death was the gift of Eru to men, and immortal life was something even the Valar could not grant Men. So I think the curse gave them a half life. Not to die, but not to live either.

[me9996]

So.. If the oath breakers are wraiths... then there are obviously other wraiths in the world...

The question is, how were they turned to wraiths?

Obviously not by the same means the nazgul were... they were turned by their rings.

And Frodo would have been turned into a wraith either by the power of the one ring, or the morgul spell, or a combination of both... not that it matters to the discussion, in either case there's a ring involved.

The men of the paths of the dead were cursed by Isildur, if you remember...

The question is, was it before or after Isildur aquired the one ring? If it was after then you needn't worry about another mechanism for becoming a wraith, wraithhood always involves a ring somewhere down the line...

Unfortunately for that theory, I think that Isildur cursed the oathbreakers BEFORE he got the one ring...

Which means that... the curse of the King of the Kings of Men (the Dúnedain) can also turn you into into a wraith! Which seems sort of unlikely...

Perhaps (and I think most likely) becoming a wraith is mostly a variation of ghosthood, brought on by regret, self loathing, and hatred. If you notice, the ghosts of the oathbreakers couldn't actually physically harm anyone. Terror was their only weapon.

Unlike the Nazgul, who's primary weapon was terror, but they could physically touch you. Perhaps the rings they wore provided them with a method of physically interacting with the material world, even though they were mostly on the "spirit plane".

Which means that if Frodo had become a wraith, he would have lost the ability to interact with the material world once the one ring was wrested from him... leaving him just a formless tormented ghost...

They are mere ghosts and are dead but do not rest.
Wraiths on the other hand are still alive but are invisable in this world.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The quote I posted above states them as wraiths.

[Blackheart]

They are mere ghosts and are dead but do not rest.
Wraiths on the other hand are still alive but are invisable in this world.

Umm.. Wraiths are not "alive"... Nor does it sound like a restful condition.

[ItalianLegolas]

it sounds more like a state of insomnia referring to the world of undead

[me9996]

What would happen if they were stabbed by a Morgul blade? Nothing? A mere scratch to them?

How about a wizzard?
Would a wizzard become an invisable wizzard?
If he did I'd call him a wraith-wizzard. :D

[Blackheart]

Somehow I doubt it. It would take a spirit much stronger than even the witch king to subdue or subvert a maia...

But he certainly had enough "spiritual strength" to affect a human or a hobbit... maybe dwarves and even some elves.

Pehaps if Sauron were the one using a Morgul blade... but you kind of get the sense that would be slumming for him.

[me9996]

Somehow I doubt it. It would take a spirit much stronger than even the witch king to subdue or subvert a maia...

But he certainly had enough "spiritual strength" to affect a human or a hobbit... maybe dwarves and even some elves.

Pehaps if Sauron were the one using a Morgul blade... but you kind of get the sense that would be slumming for him.

A wizzard is an istari not a maia :D

[Embladyne]

A wizzard is an istari not a maia :D
Dear me9996,
The istari are an organization of Maiar. So yes, a wizzard is a Maia.

[me9996]

Dear me9996,
The istari are an organization of Maiar. So yes, a wizzard is a Maia.

Huh? (Oh well I haven't finished the "silm" so I gess I'll have to trust you) :D

[Elemmírë]

Hey guys, you do know that wizard only has one Z, right? :p

Anyway, yes, me9996, the Istari are Maiar. I understand your confusion due to not having read the Silm. A quote from the Silm:

Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men call Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save Cirdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came from over the Sea.

Olorin (Mithrandir, Gandalf), is also called in the Valaquenta "Wisest of the Maiar."

[Elemmírë]

Weird, my post doesn't come up on "last post"... :confused:

Well, this should take care of that. :D

Anyway, I wonder how Isildur himself had the power to curse someone in that fashion. It seems like the sort of thing like partly withholding (for a time at least) the Gift of Man should be beyond a mortal's power, even if he had Elvish and even Maiarin blood...

[Embladyne]

Thankyou El for your spelling lesson. :D
I wonder about Isildur, too.. :confused:

[ItalianLegolas]

I know that they say that Olorin was the wisest of the Maiar, but then how did Curunir land the job of head honcho of the order of the Istari? IT DOESN"T MAKE SENSE!!

[Embladyne]

I know that they say that Olorin was the wisest of the Maiar, but then how did Curunir land the job of head honcho of the order of the Istari? IT DOESN"T MAKE SENSE!!Olorin declined it, if I remember rightly.
He said he was afraid of Sauron, and that he would make a bad canidate for the istari, but they told him, no that makes you a better one. go figure

[Elemmírë]

Galadriel wanted Olorin to have the job. But considering Curumo's ambition, it's no real surprise that he got the job.

It might also have been due to the fact that Olorin spent much of his time dealing with the different races of ME, while Curumo studied the arcane ways and knowledge of the Enemy (knowledge that eventually led to his destruction...), and thus seemed more suited the job. At least that's the way I see it.

eh... sorry about the Quenya names. Curumo/Curunir/Saruman
and the constant repetition of "the job" :o

[ItalianLegolas]

now he sounds like a wimp, thats not cool

[Embladyne]

now he sounds like a wimp, thats not coolActually, his fear was greater because he had knowledge of the true power of Morgoth and his servant Sauron. In my opinion, Saruman was just too ambitious to care that the job might be out of his league, or take more effort than he was willing to put forth. Olorin was really the only one truly prepared for "the job," the way I see it.

[ItalianLegolas]

yeah, I guess, I mean, Radagast disn't really do anything to stop Sauron, unless he trained a whole army of killer animals! :D

[Embladyne]

yeah, I guess, I mean, Radagast disn't really do anything to stop Sauron, unless he trained a whole army of killer animals! :DCareful there, don't go badmouthing Aiwendil. Could you have survived for millenia with just birds and beasts to talk to?

[ItalianLegolas]

no, but nor would I want to

[Embladyne]

no, but nor would I want towell, then. "Judge not, that ye may be judged."
:p

[ItalianLegolas]

okay, judge i shalt not

[Elemmírë]

Careful there, don't go badmouthing Aiwendil. Could you have survived for millenia with just birds and beasts to talk to?

*wanders through forest singing a la Sleeping Beauty*

You know... didn't he send the eagles? I heard that somewhere. :confused:

[ItalianLegolas]

send the eagles where? when?

[Pytt]

I am popular today, it seems :D

Aiwndil? I do not know. Maybe you could ask that young Gwaihir.. :rolleyes:

[Embladyne]

*wanders through forest singing a la Sleeping Beauty*

You know... didn't he send the eagles? I heard that somewhere. :confused:I'm pretty sure he did.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah he did. To Isenguard, bringing news to Gandalf and Saruman. So in a way if it weren't for him the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed.

[ItalianLegolas]

in an extremely subtle way mind you

[Embladyne]

Yeah he did. To Isenguard, bringing news to Gandalf and Saruman. So in a way if it weren't for him the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed.True that. I'm sure he was aware also that Sauron's victory would mean evil for the animals he cared so much for.
Oh, I was rereading part of the Silm last night, and I think I was reading that Aule created the ents because Yavannah wanted the trees to have some form of protector. :confused: Or did I just imagine all that?

[ItalianLegolas]

The ents were originally just spirits, but they eventually turned into trees.
I just read something that said that Eru gave the Olvar(Flora) and the Kelvar(fauna) each a gift, he gave the Olvar mobility, and the Kelvar spirits so harm would not come to them because they could not move. I think that Aule and Ent thing is right, I'll check

[Pytt]

Hey, people. You think all was this Radagasts doing? i think the ealges knew exactly was going on, and with their slightly dumber friend, Radagast, they planned it all out. so this ring it was such a rabble about, was destroyed.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I wouldn't really say Radagast was dumb. He was a Maia after all.

[ItalianLegolas]

true, it probably was mostly the eagles, I never really liked how Radagast got such a small part, compared to Gandalf and Saruman

[Elemmírë]

The ents were originally just spirits, but they eventually turned into trees.
I just read something that said that Eru gave the Olvar(Flora) and the Kelvar(fauna) each a gift, he gave the Olvar mobility, and the Kelvar spirits so harm would not come to them because they could not move. I think that Aule and Ent thing is right, I'll check

Both Eagles and Ents are spoken about in one of the Later Silmarillion (HoME 10&11) books, and there's a theory that they were Maiar that took such shapes... I don't think any of it is "known" in truth though, a lot about ME, especially stuff like that, is simply guesswork, methinks.

Pytt could be right. Eagles are rather autonomous.

[Embladyne]

I wouldn't really say Radagast was dumb. He was a Maia after all.I have never thought that he was. (Look at how much I advocate for him..) But, since he was sent by Yavanna, he shares her love of the flora and fauna of ME, and so isn't really interested in the knowledge of men. And in that repect, to some he appears to be not very smart. But only in the terms they judge smartness. He had his purpose, and served it, I believe.

[Pytt]

I never said he was dumb, I just said he was slightly duumber than the ealges. as you say, he is after all a Maia.

[ItalianLegolas]

well, if he was only interested in playing with bunny rabbits, why the hek was he sent to stop Sauron!

[Embladyne]

Both Eagles and Ents are spoken about in one of the Later Silmarillion (HoME 10&11) books, and there's a theory that they were Maiar that took such shapes... I don't think any of it is "known" in truth though, a lot about ME, especially stuff like that, is simply guesswork, methinks.Here's what I was talking about:
After Eru pardons Aule for creating the dwarves too early, and Aule shares his "mistake" with Yavanna, she is releived that it has worked out for good, but tells Aule that since he didn't share the knowledge of the creation of them with her, they will not share her love of plants and animals, and she mourns for all her work. So, she goes to Manwe to see if there is some kind of solution:
'All have their worth,' said Yavanna, 'and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear... ....Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!'
'This is a strange thought.' said Manwe.
'Yet it was in the Song,' said Yavanna. 'For while thou went in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive some, and some dang to Illuvatar amid the wind and the rain.'
And Manwe said: 'O Kementari, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits fromafar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young."

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You could ask why the heck Saruman was sent to stop Sauron as he was just 'playing with orcs' or why were the blue wizards sent. Gandalf was the only one who is said to have completed their task.

[Embladyne]

As a continuation of the last quote, and in relation to the Eagles:
'But dost thou not now remember, Kementari, that thy thought also sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Illuvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'

[Elemmírë]

But what were those spirits that were sent?

Anyway... you know... I just had to check to see what thread we were in... :o

Anyone want to hunt up and old thread about the wizards? There's one on the blue ones I know about...

So... 'bout them wraiths...

[Embladyne]

So... 'bout them wraiths... They went that a-way *crosses arms and points*

[Blackheart]

It seems like the sort of thing like partly withholding (for a time at least) the Gift of Man should be beyond a mortal's power, even if he had Elvish and even Maiarin blood...

Well they did... have a touch of maiar...

But perhaps it's as simple as moving your mind to a more British point of view. Kings rule by divine decree. Isildur was the closest thing to a prince of men existing at that time (assuming Elendil hadn't fallen yet)..

He didn't actually withold the "gift" of death either... But he did hold them to their oath... which bound them to Arda. They were not free to leave, even in death...

[Blackheart]

Galadriel wanted Olorin to have the job. But considering Curumo's ambition, it's no real surprise that he got the job.

You mean Varda.... Galadriel wasn't in Valanor at the time the Istari were chosen....

[Blackheart]

well, if he was only interested in playing with bunny rabbits, why the hek was he sent to stop Sauron!

Yavanna begged the other valar to include him....

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You mean Varda.... Galadriel wasn't in Valanor at the time the Istari were chosen....
I think LM means that she wanted Olorin to have 'the job' as chief of the White Council.

[Elemmírë]

I think LM means that she wanted Olorin to have 'the job' as chief of the White Council.

Yep. :cool:

[Embladyne]

Yavanna begged the other valar to include him....
Isn't the order of the Istari listed with Saruman first, Radagast second, Gandalf third, and the two blue guys last?
I think this is from the UT....(the order)
I always wonder why they list Radagast second, if Yavanna begged for him to be included. It would seem like he would be listed last :confused:
But anyway, wasn't he originally kinda a companion to Saruman? Not in the same way that the blue wizards were friends...but, still....Gandalf/Olorin always seems to be kinda a loner, already set apart from the others before their mission begins.

[Radagast The Brown]

Isn't the order of the Istari listed with Saruman first, Radagast second, Gandalf third, and the two blue guys last?
I think this is from the UT....(the order)
I always wonder why they list Radagast second, if Yavanna begged for him to be included. It would seem like he would be listed last :confused:
But anyway, wasn't he originally kinda a companion to Saruman? Not in the same way that the blue wizards were friends...but, still....Gandalf/Olorin always seems to be kinda a loner, already set apart from the others before their mission begins.The two first are Alatar and Saruman, not Radagast. Gandalf was third. Radagast and Palando were last.
Alatar and Saruman were first because they were the only ones to volunteer. Gandalf was chosen by Manwe, after them. (Varda says,by the way, that Gandalf doesn't go as third.. implying he'd be the leader I think)
Yavanna did not have to beg, she just asked it from Aule (Saruman is of Aule's Maiar).

In another place it's: 1. Saruman, 2. Gandalf, and 3. Radagast, now placed according to their stature in Valinor.

[Embladyne]

The two first are Alatar and Saruman, not Radagast. Gandalf was third. Radagast and Palando were last.
Alatar and Saruman were first because they were the only ones to volunteer. Gandalf was chosen by Manwe, after them. (Varda says,by the way, that Gandalf doesn't go as third.. implying he'd be the leader I think)
Yavanna did not have to beg, she just asked it from Aule (Saruman is of Aule's Maiar).

In another place it's: 1. Saruman, 2. Gandalf, and 3. Radagast, now placed according to their stature in Valinor.Ok, thanks! Shows how well I remember.... :D

[ItalianLegolas]

How come Aule's Maiar always seem to go bad? Sauron and Saruman were both of Aule's Maiar.

[Embladyne]

How come Aule's Maiar always seem to go bad? Sauron and Saruman were both of Aule's Maiar.I think it has to do with the pride in making things....remember how Aule made the dwarves before he was supposed to?
And this pride can often make the weilders of power feel as though they have the abilities of Eru to control the world.

[Attalus]

I think it has to do with the pride in making things....remember how Aule made the dwarves before he was supposed to?
And this pride can often make the weilders of power feel as though they have the abilities of Eru to control the world.That is theologically sound. Pride (Hubris) is supposed to be most deadly of all the sins.

[Embladyne]

That is theologically sound. Pride (Hubris) is supposed to be most deadly of all the sins.Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it before, but now...it opens up a whole 'nother realm of discussion... :)

[ItalianLegolas]

thats ok, since the original topic disapeared about 500 miles back. :D

[Embladyne]

thats ok, since the original topic disapeared about 500 miles back. :DYeah, a lot of that was my fault....I think ;)

[ItalianLegolas]

to far back to remember, maybe you should start a new topic about the Istari, just so if Nurv comes by she doesn't start yelling at us for being off topic. :D ;)

[Embladyne]

to far back to remember, maybe you should start a new topic about the Istari, just so if Nurv comes by she doesn't start yelling at us for being off topic. :D ;)Nah, there are aready threads on the istari...maybe I should go babble in the teacup....or get off my computer and go iceskating...

[ItalianLegolas]

where are you anyway? up in NJ they promised us snow and it never came :mad: stupid weathermen

[Embladyne]

where are you anyway? up in NJ they promised us snow and it never came :mad: stupid weathermenRight now, I'm in central Massachussetts.....We have plenty of snow today. :D

"And no, I have not seen any wraiths lately. What? You say you saw one pass this way? Do no jest sir, none save you have passed this way today."

[ItalianLegolas]

oh well, their saying it will snow tonight.

And if it doesn't...

there will be hell to pay.

or Angband.

[Pytt]

Oh, is this the new thread on snow? I walked around, and just stumbeld into this odd place... Here it is snow, but it is melting, not very fast but until the weekend I don't think we have more snow

[Blackheart]

How come Aule's Maiar always seem to go bad? Sauron and Saruman were both of Aule's Maiar.

Tolkien was reputed to have a grudge against technology for technology's sake. He didn't like what industrialization was doing to the English countryside. Aule would be Vala of the realm of technology.

[Elemmírë]

So much snow my hands are freezing. :mad: Well, that's from talking on a cellphone with no gloves on... (see, I do have a life off the Moot :D ) Now, 'bout that skating... ;)

That being said, this really needs to be split into a new thread. The last 20-30 posts, probably. :D

About Aulë and his Maiar: what interested me about Aulë was the part in the Silm where it is said: "Melkor was jealous of him, for Aulë was most like himself in thought and in powers..." I think that sheds some light on the fact that Maiar who went bad, specifically Saruman and Sauron, were originally of his following.

Attalus definitely has a point in saying that pride is the worst of sins (and not just from a Christian standpoint :p ), and I couldn't help but think of Fëanor when he wrote that...

Speaking of which, the Noldor themselves were most loved by Aulë too... Coincidence? ;)

[me9996]

thats ok, since the original topic disapeared about 500 miles back. :D
It was about anything wraith.
And now that we have reched (Some) conclution let's just talk about wraiths :D

[ItalianLegolas]

wraiths are evil ghost thingies. There we go. We have discovered the answer

[Embladyne]

About Aulë and his Maiar: what interested me about Aulë was the part in the Silm where it is said: "Melkor was jealous of him, for Aulë was most like himself in thought and in powers..." I think that sheds some light on the fact that Maiar who went bad, specifically Saruman and Sauron, were originally of his following.

Attalus definitely has a point in saying that pride is the worst of sins (and not just from a Christian standpoint :p ), and I couldn't help but think of Fëanor when he wrote that...

Speaking of which, the Noldor themselves were most loved by Aulë too... Coincidence? ;)
Yeah, since we were just talking about this at dinner...or was it after dinner when we sat at the table for half an hour after everyone else had left? :p

I was saying that I thought maybe some of it had to do with how much the creator of objects had invested themself in their creation. Because with Sauron, Feanor, and I believe, Saruman, they each had too much pride in their powers as creators of things.
Interesting to note that elven women put much of their spirit into their children, and Feanor's mother was so diminished with his birth. Maybe that was a forewarning?

[ItalianLegolas]

a forewarning that Feanor would be a vain, crazy Elven-smith, who decided to ride into the midst of a whole company of Balrogs, without even one measly bodyguard?? yeah, we shoulda known

[Elemmírë]

If you don't want to start a new thread; what the heck, put it in the Wraiths one! :rolleyes:

Who splits threads, moderators or admins?


wraiths are evil ghost thingies. There we go. We have discovered the answer

Hear, hear!

[Embladyne]

If you don't want to start a new thread; what the heck, put it in the Wraiths one! :rolleyes:Heck, I don't see why not. ;) Yeah, this really should be split.

[Elemmírë]

Me# should get Val or one of the others to rename this "Middle Earth Miscellaneous"!

[Embladyne]

Me# should get Val or one of the others to rename this "Middle Earth Miscellaneous"!That would be awesome. Then we could keep talking about wraiths and Istari and the origin of the Ents. :D

Arg...90 sec. rule

[Pytt]

Maybe this should be the "I hate the 90 sec rule" ? ;)

[me9996]

Can we get some modaraters over here? Maybe then we can get back on topic, or close it.

[Embladyne]

Why do they exist?
Really only to cause dispute
As to their true nature.
Is it so difficult to believe
That there may be no answer?
Here ends this
Silly stanza.

[Elemmírë]

Whence do wraiths come, where do they go?
Really, I would like to know
And why they are so hard to see
If before our eyes they seem to be
The wraith world, what is it really,
How can we ever truly say?
So off of topic we will stay.

Hehheh... what can I say? It's past midnight and I haven't been sleeping well...

[edited] You like those lyrics for your Elvish song, Em? :evil:

[me9996]

Whence do wraiths come, where do they go?
Really, I would like to know
And why they are so hard to see
If before our eyes they seem to be
The wraith world, what is it really,
How can we ever truly say?
So off of topic we will stay.

Hehheh... what can I say? It's past midnight and I haven't been sleeping well...

[edited] You like those lyrics for your Elvish song, Em? :evil:

Why don't you
Realise that these posts
Are driveing others crazy?
I
Think you need a nap.
However I think you
Should still stay on topic

I'm going nuts!

[Sister Golden Hair]

me9996 is right. Okay guys, enoough sillyness. No more poetry. Let's just discuss

[me9996]

me9996 is right. Okay guys, enoough sillyness. No more poetry. Let's just discuss
Thank you.

[me9996]

Let's see... what would start an argument... oh you're here? :o
Just trying to come up with something to get this thread going...

I've got it!

Are barrow writes wraiths?

[Blackheart]

Barrow wights aren't wraiths. They have a body.

Wight = Body in most old translations in fact.

Barrow wight would mean basically a grave corpse...

Barrow wights are indeed a classic case of undeath.

[Valandil]

I didn't think the wight had a body of its own anymore... I thought it was a spirit which occupied the dead bodies it found.

[Blackheart]

wight1 Audio pronunciation of "Wight" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wt)
n. Obsolete

A living being; a creature.


[Middle English, from Old English wiht. See wekti- in Indo-European Roots.]

ENTRY: wekti-
DEFINITION: Thing, creature. a. whit, wight1; aught2, naught, not, from Old English wiht, person, thing; b. nix2, from Old High German wiht, thing, being. Both a and b from Germanic *wihti-. (Pokorny ek-ti- 1136.)

Yeah... it's still got it's own original body. Just not the original life force...

'Grave Dweller' might be a better translation...

[Attalus]

Yes, the most common definition of "wight" in most dictionaries is :

From Dictionary.com: wight1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wt)
n. Obsolete
A living being; a creature.

[me9996]

Yes, the most common definition of "wight" in most dictionaries is :

From Dictionary.com: wight1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wt)
n. Obsolete
A living being; a creature.
You've made your poi- wait! Aren't wraith still in there bodys but there bodys are in the wraith world?

[Valandil]

But are Tolkien's wights different from the dictionary definition?

In Appendix A (read the portion on Arnor and Arthedain - the time of the Great Plague in 1636), he tells us that evil spirits came out of Angmar and dwelt in the Barrow Downs.

Or - were the wights the sum total of the evil spirits that came in and the bodies they took? Or... do you still think they brought their bodies with them?

Wonder if a connection could be made to those Mewlips of the poem in Adventures of Tom Bombadil...???

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yep. And as I posted earlier in this thread, that is how Tolkien describes them. Oh, and Val, that is also exactly what Foster says. :)

[Blackheart]

But are Tolkien's wights different from the dictionary definition?

That still being beside the point.. they have a corpus! they are so not-wraithlike...

As I said, Grave Dweller is probably a more accurate translation of Barrow Wight...

[Blackheart]

You've made your poi- wait! Aren't wraith still in there bodys but there bodys are in the wraith world?

Sigh...

So is yours you ninny-hammer! It's called a soul you great lummocking noodle! *preceding works best when delivered in a Scottish Burr*

Wraiths are souls. Discorporate "bodies"... Ghosts!

What makes them special is something giveing them the power to impinge/act-on/impact the corporate world. In the case of the Nazgul, it was likely their ring. In some cases, probably sorcery.

Ghosts can scare the crap out of you, but if they could slap the crap out of you, then they would be a wraith. But that doesn't mean they have a corpus!

[Blackheart]

I thought it was a spirit which occupied the dead bodies it found.

Yeah... it's still got it's own original body. Just not the original life force...

compare and contrast, and for extra credit, tell me the real difference....

Zombie = Original body + evil animating force.

Possession = Original soul + Stolen Corpus

I'd say barrow wights were closer to Zombies than possesed dead bodies...but then it's probably just splitting hairs... The point being they had bodies... Without them they were just ghosts...

[Valandil]

Is it only me, or does anyone else have a hard time saying 'wraith' and 'wight' in the same sentence? :confused:

I either want to say "wraith and wright" or "waith and wight"! :p

[Elemmírë]

It took me a while to realise that "wraith" was not pronounced "wrath"... :o

[me9996]

Is it only me, or does anyone else have a hard time saying 'wraith' and 'wight' in the same sentence? :confused:

I either want to say "wraith and wright" or "waith and wight"! :p
I do Valandil.

[me9996]

It took me a while to realise that "wraith" was not pronounced "wrath"... :o
Not me! But I wached the FotR movie first so...

[Attalus]

Is it only me, or does anyone else have a hard time saying 'wraith' and 'wight' in the same sentence? :confused:

I either want to say "wraith and wright" or "waith and wight"! :pNo, but I find it hard to say "ninny-hammer" with a straight face. :p

[me9996]

No, but I find it hard to say "ninny-hammer" with a straight face. :p
Is that a dwrvish insult? :)

P.S.
That 90 second rule has been bugging me again...

If you look trough some of my other posts you'll see me complaining...

[Embladyne]

Is it only me, or does anyone else have a hard time saying 'wraith' and 'wight' in the same sentence? :confused:

I either want to say "wraith and wright" or "waith and wight"! :p
ARG! now you've jixed me :p I can't say them together anymore. Actually, it remindes me of the tounge twister warmups I used to have to sing in choir class. "One black bug bled blue-black blood, the other black bug bled blue." Heck, I can't even type it correctly. I would end up saying 'blug" instead of "bug" and all kinds of fun stuff like that.

[EarthBound]

It took me a while to realise that "wraith" was not pronounced "wrath"... :o


Tis true, but the question is why? I held the word in the same contention. But it's spelled just like it sounds...I must be mental ;)

[Elemmírë]

Tis true, but the question is why? I held the word in the same contention. But it's spelled just like it sounds...I must be mental ;)

Hm... I wonder if it's because of the spelling. Since the "i" is right next to a "t", maybe if you're not reading it too hard, it sort of blends in... wraith, and you kind of ignore the "i".

I think if the spelling were "wraeth" I wouldn't have ever had any problem with it.

Or maybe I just like the word "wrath"... :p

[Blackheart]

ummm.... How do you guys think wrath is pronounced?

I've always heard it as closer to roth than rath....

[Pytt]

I'va always thought it like rath. Wrath. roth sounds strange to me. But I'll guess it depends on where you live and such.

[EarthBound]

Doesn't Gollum pronounce it like the word faith and says, “wraiths on wings”?

[me9996]

I'va always thought it like rath. Wrath. roth sounds strange to me. But I'll guess it depends on where you live and such.
It's wraith!
The "W" is silent.
The "R" isn't.
The "A" is long.
The "I" modafys the "A".
And the "TH" makes the same sound it always does.


Hope this helps! :D

Edit: Due to problems understanding me I changed the "I" parts text.

[Pytt]

the I is silent? oh. Well, I say Wraith anyway, I belive.Thanks :)

[Blackheart]

Doesn't Gollum pronounce it like the word faith and says, “wraiths on wings”?

Wraith rhymes with faith yes.

Wrath can rhyme with bath, but I've also heard it rhymed with hoth (as in the ice planet where the great white three toed sloth lives).

Of those I think I'm partial to hoth...

[me9996]

the I is silent? oh. Well, I say Wraith anyway, I belive.Thanks :)
Like a silent e.

It afects the "A" but doesn't make any noise itself.

[Elemmírë]

Wraith rhymes with faith yes.

Wrath can rhyme with bath, but I've also heard it rhymed with hoth (as in the ice planet where the great white three toed sloth lives).

Of those I think I'm partial to hoth...

I pronounce it rhyming with faith now... which is sad, since I used to think it rhymed with bath. I don't think I could go back now... :(

[Pytt]

Like a silent e.

It afects the "A" but doesn't make any noise itself.


Yes, like I thought :) thanks

[me9996]

Yes, like I thought :) thanks
You're very welcome...

[me9996]

Okay, are wraiths dead?

P.S.
How did I break the 90 second rule?

[Lotesse]

Wraiths are undead. :) How've you been me9996; haven't seen you in a while!

[Butterbeer]

well, as an immortal one me9996 i'd have thought you would know that! ;)

best BB :D

[me9996]

Wraiths are undead. :) How've you been me9996; haven't seen you in a while!
good...