South Rhovanion

[Dark Lord Sauron]

For the record, the lands in yellow comprise of the Principality (later Kingdom) of Rhovanion before the lands in question were ceded:

http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Rhovanion1.jpg

These lands in blue are the lands in question, subject to Gondor as of 1050:

http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Wainriders1.jpg

Now reconcile these statements, some from the Atlas of Middle Earth, others from other sources:

"Sometime after Gondor had reached its widest borders, it ceded the lands south of Mirkwood to the people of Rhovanion as a buffer state against the Easterlings."

Which would suggest that all that land in blue would now be part of Rhovanion. Tolkien also says in the appendicies that Gondor ceded the lands of south Rhovanion to the Principality of Rhovanion.

"The Argonath [is a]...monument comprising two enormous pillars, carved in the likenesses of Isildur and Anárion, standing upon either side of the River Anduin at the northern approach to Nen Hithoel, originally constructed about T. A. 1340 at the order of Rómendacil II to mark the northern border of Gondor"

Which is consistant with the above statement.

Now add this one.

"In 1856 [the Wainriders] attacked. Southern and eastern Rhovanion fell, and its people were inslaved; and Gondor lost at Dagorlad and withdrew to the Anduin."

Not only that, but the first map on p59 clearly shows the Kingdom of Rhovanion without the territories that Gondor supposedly ceded, and that it was Gondor that lost south Rhovanion.

Furthermore, Appendix B in the back of Return of the King says explicitly that those territories were part of Gondor.

"1856 - Gondor loses its eastern territories, and Narmacil II falls in battle."

I realize that Fonstad's book is not canon. However, Tokien makes the same contradictions.

RECONCILE!!!!

[Dark Lord Sauron]

Also,

The Kingdom of Rhovanion went into decline after the defeat of the Wainriders, and many of its folk settled in Gondor. Eventually it was destroyed by the Balcoth. What became of South Rhovanion, though?

[Nurvingiel]

Wouldn't it just have become a wasteland? It's awfully close to Mordor, if I read your map correctly.

[Radagast The Brown]

From what I understand, Rhovanion was the area east to the misty mountains, but never thought it was a kingdom...? I do remember that Gondor settled there people.
Now, checking Unfinished Tales, I found 'Vidugavia (sp.) king of Rhovanion' meantioned - but he wasn't the King of all Rhovanion, and his kingdom wasn't called Rhovanion; he was the King of the north people, future Rohirrim IIRC. It was just his 'nickname' like Romendacil I think. (He's also mentioned in Appendices)
The Argonath indeed show the northern end of Gondor - which could make sense, depends where exactly it stands.

[Manveru]

ya the argonath was the north border, not the east border
i think...

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

and bear in mind, a territory controlled by one state would not necessarily be included within the boundaries of the principle state/kingdom, think colonies, dependencies, satellite states etc

[Valandil]

DLS - sorry, I was a bit confused by your question at first. I guess you're asking, "Whose lands WERE those - south of Mirkwood, east of Anduin and north of the Argonauth?" - correct?

Here are a few theories / thoughts on it:

1. Could be that you err with one small word in this statement...

Which would suggest that all that land in blue would now be part of Rhovanion.

There may have been shared control of those lands to some extent - with Gondor perhaps interested in maintaining forces at least along the Anduin.

2. While the Argonauth marked the northern boundary of Gondor - they may have kept forces in the lands beyond... to shore up their allies, ward off (and warn of) foes, etc.

3. There was over 500 years between the building of the Argonauth (ca 1340) and the battle you mention in 1856. That's a lot of time for borders to shift, arrangements to change, etc - and Tolkien's summary of history is in broad brush-strokes here, not completely detailed. While Gondor reached the height of its power a good many years before, they may have alternately expanded and contracted on some fronts (like the northeast) while mostly contracting on others (say - the south and southeast).

4. Gondor's eastern holdings lost in 1856 may have been North Itilien, perhaps. Or - as I say, they may have claimed some nominal hold on posts along the east shore of Anduin - and perhaps along the north borders of Mordor (although those were stated to be unmanned - perhaps still considered among their 'holdings').

So... lots of choices, take your pick! Or at least let me know what you think of those possibilities.

(Or... #5 - Tolkien goofed! :p )