Who has the control: Sauron or the Ring?

[Elemmírë]

Oh, dear. How embarrassing. :o This is actually my brother Sirion's post:

Theoretically, if Sauron had reformed his ways before Lord of the Rings and became good, he probably would have gotten his ring back. The question is, if he did get the ring back, would it have corrupted him again, or would he have been able to truly use it for good?

[Sirion]

That was my post... sorry. I was using the wrong account. :p

[Valandil]

Don't know that he necessarily would have gotten his Ring back.

If so though, corrupted... definitely!

[Elemmírë]

Sorry, that was my brother "Sirion"'s post... we're on the same computer... and he accidentally was writing under my name... apparently I had not signed off... ;)

So... the question stands.

Personally, I think he would have been corrupted... but I have to leave now... :(

[Valandil]

I thought your brother was 'Finrodde' or whatever... he startin' multiple accounts already!?? :eek:

:p

G-bye! Tchuss! :)

[Sirion]

She made me get a new one. Apparently Finnrodde was not sufficient... :p

[Pytt]

hmm, interesting thought.
I think the Ring follows Sauron, though I am not sure. So if he turns good, and get it I think it will be nice. if Sauron had got it back, when he was good, I think the ring would have been turned over to the good side. but I am not sure for to seconds. if someone puts up a good idea...

[brownjenkins]

i'm with pytt... i think of the ring as kind of an extension of himself... it would probably reflect his outlook in "personality"

[Valandil]

I think it was independently evil... linked with him in some strange way, yes - but in essence, created as an evil thing... with the evil intent he had upon its making.

Remember too, that it is a Ring of POWER... and think of the corrupting nature of power... :evil:

:eek:

[brownjenkins]

Remember too, that it is a Ring of POWER... and think of the corrupting nature of power... :evil:

unless it is actually not that power corrupts, but that power attracts corrupted people ;)

shamelessly paraphased from dune

[Valandil]

unless it is actually not that power corrupts, but that power attracts corrupted people ;)

shamelessly paraphased from dune

This is not in reference to my becoming a moderator, is it?? :confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think it would probably corrupt him again The Ring wasn't part of Sauron but the Ring had some of Sauron's power. This wouldn't change with Sauron as it was no longer part of him.

[brownjenkins]

This is not in reference to my becoming a moderator, is it?? :confused:

not at all :p

you were nominated... which is quite a different thing than actively seeking it out

unless there are some backdoor dealings i am unaware of :p

[Beor]

I'm with Val here, in both respects.

First, why would Sauron get his ring back? Would they just give it to him? I think that if he did become good, that he wouldnt want it back, preferring to remain in whatever state he is in rather than risk spiraling back down into corruption after recieveing the ring. I dont think that he would continue to seek it if he had truly turned good.

Now if the White Counsel found it, and he asked them for it, I dont think they would give it back, because they would distrust him. They would probably not even tell him they found it, and being good, Sauron wouldnt "turn his eye" on them, because that would be sort of bad, right? Remember that Sauron always came to men and elves calling himself Annatar or something similar, something referring to gifts, always putting on a fair form. He cant look fair anymore, but he could maybe act fair, and the White Counsel would think of it as just that, and act.

In the odd chance that he did get the ring back, I do believe that he would become evil again, because apparently no one but me could resist its powers, and there is so much evil inherent in the ring, being away from Sauron for so long and still corrupting everyone who had it, certainly it doesnt need Sauron to be evil.

[Pytt]

what you says makes sense, Beor. If the White Counsel found it, they would ceartainly not have said anything. but if Sauron found the ring himself, I think he would have been able to use it, without getting evil.

[Radagast The Brown]

what you says makes sense, Beor. If the White Counsel found it, they would ceartainly not have said anything. but if Sauron found the ring himself, I think he would have been able to use it, without getting evil.I agree with Beor and Val... I think that the Ring would still corrupt him - or if he's strong enough, still be evil. In my opinion, the Ring was made of the power of Sauron when he was evil, and therefore the power is evil and the Ring is... I don't think the Ring can change with Sauron. It is still an object... made of evil for evil reasons, from evil thoughts... for the will to gain control of the Elves.

[Valandil]

I mean... if YOU guys are right, and he stayed good WITH the Ring... what does he use it for? Just 'checking in on' the Three? Does the ring of Durin's house suddenly begin to simply find treasure WITHOUT fueling greed? Do the Nine suddenly start to 'change' for the better... maybe become the 'White Riders'? :p

[Sister Golden Hair]

The Ring was created by evil with only an evil purpose. I think it unlikely that had Sauron ever turned good that he could possess the Ring without being evily influenced and returning to his former self. Look at Gollum.

[Pytt]

ok, looks like I am on weakning ground here... I think you guys have converted me.. but I am still thinking of the idea that the Ring was an extension of Sauron, and therefore changed with him. But I think that is an idea with no backup, just wandering thoughts...

[Sister Golden Hair]

ok, looks like I am on weakning ground here... I think you guys have converted me.. but I am still thinking of the idea that the Ring was an extension of Sauron, and therefore changed with him. But I think that is an idea with no backup, just wandering thoughts...Well, I think that would be like saying something good could come from something evil, but in this case, the Ring was ultimately evil and there was nothing good to come from it. So, in a way, if Sauron had become good and then got the Ring back, he would be just as susceptible as any other being at being corrupted by it. Maybe even moreso, since he created it and it was his evil power that inhabited it. Yes, the Ring was an extension of Sauron, which makes it unlikely that he could ever be 100% good.

[Attalus]

I agree with SGH and Val that the Ring would have corrupted even a "good" Sauron. Do we not have Gandalf's and Elrond's word that is "altogether evil?" If Gandalf feared to wield it, why would even a 'good' Sauron? Besides, I do not think Galadriel and Elrond would have allowed it, as it controlled their Rings. Who could you trust that far? Certainly not Sauron.

[Pytt]

but since Sauron created it, couldn't he possibly be lifted over the corruption? I know Gandalf couldn't, but his presence was not so strong as Sauron's in middle earth, I think. so couldn't Sauron have risen over the corruption, and that way he did not would have been corrupted?

and to the one asking quoesstion about what to do about it, if the ring had turned good. they could have used it in the same way as the three, and with greater power I think.

[Beor]

Sauron already had his chance not to be corrupted, and he done got corrupted. Plus, you realise that he put much of himself into that ring when he made it, hence when the ring was destroyed so was he. Would it make sense for him to change suddenly for good if the ring decided to be good? Because it seems to me that there is more Sauron in the ring than in Sauron. The only way he could really overcome the ring is to destroy it, and in doing so, destroy himself.

And Val, I believe the Ringwraiths would remain black and horrible, but go on to teach kindergarten or take lead roles in hilarious sitcoms. "Everybody Loves Ringwraith"

[Manveru]

if sauron became good and the ring was found what would they do with the ring? if they destroyed it sauron would be destroyed and if they kept it it would corrupt anyone who held onto it, and sauron would prolly be addicted to it like cigarettes, and would need to go through some serious rehab b4 he could be rid of his need for it.

[Artanis]

It seems to me that Sauron gave away control over his own will when he created the Ring. He dispersed himself by putting much if his malice, power and will into the Ring. I agree with those here who say that he could not have the Ring and at the same time be good. It is contradictory, even if Sauron decided to repent of his earlier misdeeds and lead a good life thereafter, the Ring would still be evil. As I see it, and here I agree with Beor, the only way Sauron could completely redeem himself was to destroy the Ring, which meant his own destruction as well.

It is a parallell to what happened to Morgoth when he let himself be dispersed into the substance of the Earth. The evil component in Arda exist regardless of what happens to Morgoth. The only way to completely conquer his evil is to destroy the Earth, and that will not happen until the end of days.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes, the Ring was an extension of Sauron, which makes it unlikely that he could ever be 100% good.
Or any good for that matter. Like I said the Ring was no longer a part of Sauron so it wouldn't change with him.

[Pytt]

Ok, you guys have convinced me. If Sauron had got the ring, when he had turned good, it wouldhave corrupted him, again, and made him evil.
and as I think abour it, even if Sauron had been strong enough to get clear of the corruption in the ring, that would have been before he turned evil in the first time. and like someone mentioned, the ring contained mor of Sauron, than Sauron himself.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I wouldn't say more but the bit of him that was in there, was no longer him.

[The Wizard from Milan]

This thread made me think about a related question: could Sauron have unmade the ring (in a different way from casting it into Mount Doom) and sucked back the power into himself?

[Maerbenn]

could Sauron have unmade the ring (in a different way from casting it into Mount Doom) and sucked back the power into himself?Tolkien says in Letters no. 131 that “the Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his [Sauron’s] own.�

So I think Sauron could have broken it, but I’m not sure about sucking the power back in. :)

[Elemmírë]

Interesting question...

I could probably go either way on it. It's likely, I think, that having spent so much power on it, he would have been unable to unmake it.

[edited] meh. Ignore me. :p

Anyone think Fëanor could have destroyed it?

[Maerbenn]

Anyone think Fëanor could have destroyed it?Gandalf says in ‘The PalantÃ*r’ that the Orthanc-stone is beyond Saruman’s art, and beyond Sauron’s too.

So if Fëanor wrought the palantÃ*ri, I think you could interpret this to mean that Fëanor’s smithcraft was greater than Sauron’s. That in turn would mean that Fëanor could have destroyed the One Ring.

Of course, it could also mean that Fëanor was just more specialized in making seeing-stones than Saruman and Sauron. :)

[Nurvingiel]

Aha, but some good did come of the Ring. If it weren't for the Ring, Bilbo and the Dwarves never would have succeeded in their Quest, which resulted in the world being rid of Smaug (an evil being by nature and deed), the restoration of an important part of Dwarven civilization, and dealing a serious blow to the activities of the Orcs (who are also evil by nature and deed). It just wouldn't have gone down like that if it weren't for the Ring.

However, Bilbo remained admirably uncorrupted. If he had known what the Ring really was, or had he been more powerful in himself (like Gandalf or an Elf Lord), he might have become corrupted himself. He was still corrupted a bit, despite his good heart.

"Power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely." - Lord Acton

Bilbo did not have absolute power to weild the Ring to anything even near its full potential, so he could not become absolutely corrupted by it. Sauron, of course would.

Even in the unlikely event of Sauron reforming, the Ring would still corrupt him. I think it would corrupt anyone (except Eru, or Tom Bombadil) who could weild it to its full power. It would be worse for Sauron because for him it would be like a recovered alcoholic having a drink.

I don't think Fëanor would have destroyed it, he would have tried to take it apart to see how it worked. :D

[Attalus]

Lord Acton did not mean that power corrupts everybody that has it, but that it had the potential to corrupt susceptible individuals, and that absolute power had the potential to corrupt absolutely those same individuals. I think we can safely classify Sauron as a suceptible individual, so that he should never even have been shown the Ring again, like an alcoholic should not be given a drink. :eek: I don't think one can consider Gil-Galad or George Washington, among many more, to be corrupt, but consider Nero and Caligula.

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks Attalus. That's a very good point.

Do you think, then, that if Gil-Galad and Isildur's places had changed, Gil-Galad would have destroyed the Ring? I think this is very likely.

[Attalus]

Thanks Attalus. That's a very good point.

Do you think, then, that if Gil-Galad and Isildur's places had changed, Gil-Galad would have destroyed the Ring? I think this is very likely.I definitely think Gil-Galad would have destroyed the Ring, since he had knowledge and insight that Isildur lacked, having been a Ring-Bearer and having known others. I think he would have been careful not to touch it, possibly picking it up on Aiglos' tip or the tip-shard, (since that was a sacred weapon, I take it) shielded his thoughts from it as best he could, and thrown it into the fire.

[me9996]

Oh, dear. How embarrassing. :o This is actually my brother Sirion's post:

Theoretically, if Sauron had reformed his ways before Lord of the Rings and became good, he probably would have gotten his ring back. The question is, if he did get the ring back, would it have corrupted him again, or would he have been able to truly use it for good?
He would use it for good or he wouldn't use it at all.

[Olmer]

The Ring was created by evil with only an evil purpose.
On contrary, I think that Sauron made the Ring not to achieve the dominance by overpowering (he was quite powerful already), but by stripping the power of all, who opposed him, feeding himself with this power and life - force, thus gaining abilities to "materialise" from a spirit form and getting an "eyesight" to see plans and notions of the others in more clear perspective.
No more evil purpose , than Galadriel's (for example) wishes to became more powerful than elves in Aman.

In this light I see the Ring as some kind of symbiotic generator-transmitter which feeding the life-force of carrier to the one-and-only receiving point - the Dark Tower.
With melting in the fire the Ring-Generator got short-circuited - transformers blew up - stored energy (life-force) disappeared, what had been feed with it(Sauron) became powerless, but not completely gone.

[Gordis]

I think the main power of the One ring was to control the other rings, to see and direct the minds and deeds of the other ringbearers. Other powers of the Ring (invisibility, intimidating weaker creatures, attracting followers etc.) were not that important.

With the One on his finger Sauron was able to make all the other rings (which didn't contain his power) work for him. He had to put a part of his own power into the Ring but acquired the power of the 19. So after the forging of the One, Sauron's combined power has increased greatly.
At least that was his plan, which has worked partially (with the 9). The 7 proved to be rather useless (he would have been wiser to give them to the Men as well) and the 3 the Elves hid. But though Sauron has not got the power of the 3, at least he has prevented Elves from using their rings during all the rest of the II Age.

Why any good person wielding the Ring turns to evil? IMHO wielding the ring means first of all controlling the other rings through their ringbearers, manipulating their minds and bending their wills, which is a great evil in itself. And then, of course, the new Ringlord becomes one with his ring and assimilates the part of bad Sauron's fea it contains...

[me9996]

You know, if souron was good it would take more than the one ring to change that... And souron does concrole the ring... You've got my opinion...

[Haradrim]

Now whats this throwing around fo the word "evil"? Whoever said the ring was "evil"? ;) just kidding. Still I think if Sauron had turned good, (highly unlikely IMO), he would have been able to suck his power back from the ring itself. Then he has internal conflict. New turned Sauron fights old evil Sauron in his head. Good wins cuz well good always wins. Then the white coucil forces him to destroy the ring and is sent on timeout back to Valinor. I think they would be more careful of "redeemed" people after the "redemption" of Melkor.