Maedhros and Gwindor

[Elemmírë]

Okay. This has been bothering me for a while. If there's an old thread on it, I'm sorry, but I couldn't find it. :)

The Silmarillion:
At first his own people did not know Gwindor, who went out young and strong, and returned now seeming as one of the aged among mortal men…

The Lost Road and Other Writings:
Maidros the chief of Feanor's sons did deeds of surpassing valor, and the Orcs could not endure the light of his face; for since his torment upon Thangorodrim his spirit burned with a white fire within, and he was as one that returneth from the dead, keen and terrible; and they fled before him.

After returning from Angband, Gwindor is only a shadow of his former self, while Maedhros, if anything, seems stronger and enhanced because of it. Physically, why are they so different afterwards? Surely Gwindor's torment could not have been worse than Maedhros's. Mentally, was Maedhros more negatively affected than it seems, and is there any evidence?

Any ideas?

[Manveru]

i dont think that Maedhros was in Angband as long as Gwindor, and his torment was very different. Maedhros was a hostage:

Morgoth held Maedhros as hostage, and sent word that he would not release him unless the Noldor would forsake their war

But Gwindor was forced to toil in Angband:

Many of the Noldor and Sindar they took captive and led to Angband, and made them thralls, forcing them to use their skill and knowledge in the service of Morgoth. And Morgoth sent out his spies... But the Noldor feared most the treachery of their own kin, who had been thralls in Angband; for Morgoth used some of these for his evil purposes, feigning to give them liberty sent them abroad, but their wills were chained to his, and they strayed only to come back to him. Therefore if any of is captives escaped in truth, and returned to their own people, they had little welcome, and wandered alone outlawed and desperate.

so i think that whereas Maedhros was basically just left in a dungeon and then chained to a wall, Gwindor was a slave of Morgoth and worked endlessly in his mines and smithys, so when Maedhros was freed he wanted revenge on Morgoth, but when Gwindor escaped he was utterly exhausted and he appeared old and frail.

[Elemmírë]

Actually, I considered that.

Okay, Turin was 8 years old at the Nirnaeth and dwelt in Thingol's halls for 9 years. He wandered around for X years, and was still just entering full manhood when Gwindor brought him to Nargothrond. So, in my estimation, Gwindor was probably in Angband somewhere between 10 and 15 years.

In an old post (http://entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=198913&postcount=8), it had been stated that Maedhros was a captive for 23-24 years of the sun.

Personally... I think that being hanged off a cliff for that long is worse than toiling in a dungeon...

[Wayfarer]

For a human, perhaps.

For an Elf, whose body is meant to last forever, just hanging there probably wouldn't nescessarily be that tormentous, as long as A) The stress wasn't more than they could handle, and B) They still got whatever sustenance they needed. I can easily see a healthy elf being able to 'hang around' practically forever in those conditions.

Also - is it explicitly stated that Maedhros was left hanging from the cliff? I always thought he had been left standing on a ledge, with one arm chained above his head (otherwise how would Fingon have been able to get alongside him and cut him down?)

[Elemmírë]

Therefore Morgoth took Maedhros and hung him from the face of a precipice upon Thangorodrim...

Now... our favourite dictionary says:

precipice
1. An overhanging or extremely steep mass of rock, such as a crag or the face of a cliff.
2. The brink of a dangerous or disastrous situation: on the precipice of defeat.

too many definitions for "hung"
#1 says "To fasten from above with no support from below; suspend."

I think that's explicit. :)

And it is described as "torment", and of course, Morgoth isn't exactly a nice guy...

[Maedhros]

This one is for my friend Artanis! :rolleyes:

Let's get the facts straight:
Maedhros was captured in 1498 Age of the Trees.
Maedhros was released from Angband in the year 5 of the FA. (Age of the Sun)
I have made a transformation since the beginning of time, through the end of the first age. The time between his capture and release would be aprox: 720005 - 719712 years of the sun = 293 years in which he was imprisioned.
Or if you prefer 2*144 + 5 = 293 years. (See Annals of Aman for the dates)
(Note= 1 Valian year = 144 sun years. ) See note 5 of Myths Transfomred in Morgoth's Rings

As for Gwindor:
He was captured in 472 FA and released in 489 FA. So he was held for 17 years.

Therefore comments like these:
i dont think that Maedhros was in Angband as long as Gwindor, and his torment was very different.
Okay, Turin was 8 years old at the Nirnaeth and dwelt in Thingol's halls for 9 years. He wandered around for X years, and was still just entering full manhood when Gwindor brought him to Nargothrond. So, in my estimation, Gwindor was probably in Angband somewhere between 10 and 15 years.

In an old post, it had been stated that Maedhros was a captive for 23-24 years of the sun.

Are funny. :D
There are these manuscripts and typescripts called: Annals of Aman, Grey Annals and Tale of Years to look for the dates when the events happened in the FA.

After returning from Angband, Gwindor is only a shadow of his former self, while Maedhros, if anything, seems stronger and enhanced because of it.
Perhaps the answer lies in this:
From the Lays of Beleriand: The Flight of the Noldoli from Valinor
Then his sons beside him, the seven kinsmen,
crafty Curufin, Celegorm the fair,
Damrod and Diriel and dark Cranthir,
Maglor the mighty, and Maidros tall
(the eldest, whose ardour yet more eager burnt
than his father’s flame, than Fëanor’s wrath;

I really burned with the fire of the One. ;)

[Manveru]

haha, ya i dont have all of the HoME yet, i only have both lost tales and ive only read the first one, but im hoping to get the next 2 for xmas :)

[Elemmírë]

Me too. Last time I tried to buy one of the Later Silmarillion volumes, I almost ended up getting myself killed... When you don't have the information, you have to resort to simple math (and hope Christopher Tolkien didn't screw up too badly ;) ) or look at old posts. Annals of Aman are in... which one? HoME 10, 11 or 12? Thanks for setting the facts straight though, Maedhros. :)

Therefore comments like these...
Are funny. :D

Always glad to entertain. :cool: ;)

Consider it a belated birthday present. :p


I wondered if it could simply be attributed to this:
There Maedhros in time was healed; for the fire of life was hot within him, and his strength was of the ancient world, such as those possessed who were nurtured in Valinor.

And yet... that almost seems too simple... :confused:

[Artanis]

Hello Rusco! :)

Elemmire, perhaps it may help to look at it this way, as I think you have already:
Maidros the chief of Feanor's sons did deeds of surpassing valor, and the Orcs could not endure the light of his face; for since his torment upon Thangorodrim his spirit burned with a white fire within, and he was as one that returneth from the dead, keen and terrible; and they fled before him.This describes Maedhros some 400 years after he was released from Thangorodrim, giving him plenty of time to recover, at least physically if not wholly mentally. But his body must have been marred too during his torment. He begged Fingon twice to slay him, a fact which I think says much about his suffering. I think that if Nerdanel had seen her eldest son just after his escape, maybe she would have taken back the name Maitimo. :D ;)

But this:At first his own people did not know Gwindor, who went out young and strong, and returned now seeming as one of the aged among mortal men…This describes Gwindor only shortly after his escape from captivity, and he has but just returned from a hard and perilous journey from Angband to Nargothrond. Moreover, he has also helped Beleg with the saving of Túrin, and he has been healing the Man and gotten him safely into Nargothrond. Not bad for an Elf just escaped from the dungeons of Morgoth, methinks. If Gwindor had lived longer than he did, and had he not lost his love, I think he would have found the strength within to become his old self, more or less.

[Durin1]

Gwindor is called "a very valiant prince".

It's good to see that other elves, not just those of the House of Finwe are shown to be "great" themselves.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Gwindor is called "a very valiant prince".

It's good to see that other elves, not just those of the House of Finwe are shown to be "great" themselves.That's a good point. That may also explain why Maedhros was able to endure better than Gwindor. He was of the house of Finwe, and not just that, he was a Feanorian and the Feanorians were exceptional in such ways.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Also - is it explicitly stated that Maedhros was left hanging from the cliff? I always thought he had been left standing on a ledge, with one arm chained above his head (otherwise how would Fingon have been able to get alongside him and cut him down?)After Fingon said his prayer to Manwe, Thorondor came and stayed Fingon's hand from his bow and lifted him up to where Maedhros hung.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Therefore comments like these:
Are funny. :D


Perhaps the answer lies in this:
From the Lays of Beleriand: The Flight of the Noldoli from Valinor
Well, in referring to books like volumes 1, 2 and 3 of the HoMe, we would be speaking of the old mythology, so does that make the info in the Sil incorrect?

[Durin1]

That's a good point. That may also explain why Maedhros was able to endure better than Gwindor. He was of the house of Finwe, and not just that, he was a Feanorian and the Feanorians were exceptional in such ways.

You mean exceptional don't you SGH? ;) :D

I don't think Tolkien made any special reference to certain elves being able to heal themselves better than others. I think it was just a general trait of elvish Fea.

I think that Maedhros was able to endure "better" that Gwindor for a couple of reasons:

1. Maedhros had more motivation and incentive that must have spurred him (or his "spirit") on; he had set himself up for the obvious trap by Morgoth. He fell for it and must have been kicking himself (literally, since he only had the use of one arm :D ) that he fell easy prey to Morgoth.

2. The Oath drove him so he focuses his pain and torment, not to mention swollen anger into the positive energy of basic warriorship.


However, as has been said, Gwindor's torment must have been of a different nature to Maedhros'. He was more a thrall than a hostage and I could just imagine the merciless soldiers of Morgoth exploiting the thrall-elves to the maximum.

[Sister Golden Hair]

You mean exceptional don't you SGH?Of course that's what I meant silly. Are your eyes playing tricks on you? That's what i said. Look again. :p :D

[Durin1]

Have I just had a dyslexia moment or have you sneakily changed the spelling?

;) :p

[Sister Golden Hair]

Have I just had a dyslexia moment or have you sneakily changed the spelling?

;) :pMe, change the spelling? Why I would never do such a thing. :D

[Elemmírë]

Nice points, everyone. Thank you. :)

Have I just had a dyslexia moment or have you sneakily changed the spelling?

;) :p

Would it have showed up as spelt correctly in the quote in your own post if she had changed it... or did SGH go and edit that too? ;)

Okay. I have a strange twist to put on everything... And please don't kill me for it... :cool:

But Morgoth thought that his triumph was fulfilled, recking little of the Sons of Fëanor, and of their oath, which had harmed him never and turned always to his mightiest aid; and in his black thought he laughed…

But even the Noldor feared most the treachery of their own kin, who had been thralls in Angband; for Morgoth used some of these for his evil purposes, and feigning to give them liberty sent them abroad, but their wills were chained to his, and they strayed only to come back to him again.

The part of this quote which bothers me is the statement, “they strayed only to come back to him again.”

It seems to me that everything that Maedhros did turned to Morgoth’s advantage. This could be attributed to the Oath, of course… But to me it seems that there could be another interpretation.

The same argument could be made for Gwindor (which is good, since I’m making it. ;) ). His first act upon being freed involves Turin killing his best friend. Then he leads Turin to Nargothrond, precipitating the kingdom’s destruction.

I’m not saying that either purposefully served Morgoth.

Hurin, after all, never willingly served Morgoth, but all the same fulfilled his purposes, unknowingly hastening the destruction of Gondolin and (one could argue) Doriath.

Any merit in this idea, or can someone refute it completely?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It was Thingol's fault that Doriath was destroyed, not Hurin's.

As for the other point's, the Oath of Feanor would not have harmed Morgoth if Maedhros had avaded capture, that was the oath working against the Son's purpose. And with Gwindor, Beleg being killed was probably to do with Morgoth's curse upon Hurin's kin, as was the destuction of Nargothrond.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Elemmire

His first act upon being freed involves Turin killing his best friend. Then he leads Turin to Nargothrond, precipitating the kingdom’s destruction. Well, there may be many things at work with this. The Doom of Mandos, the curse upon Hurin, as well as the curse upon Anglachel by Eol, which I think is a big reason for Beleg's death.

[EDIT] Oh, and maybe the fall of Nargothrond had something to do with that idiot, Orodreth. :rolleyes:

[Elemmírë]

It was Thingol's fault that Doriath was destroyed, not Hurin's.

It was a lot of people's faults. Hurin was admittedly a thrall of Morgoth, unwilling as it was. He says to Thingol,

Receive now, lord, the Necklace of the Dwarves, as a gift from one who has nothing, and as a memorial of Hurin of Dorlomin. For now my fate is fulfilled and the purpose of Morgoth achieved; but I am his thrall no longer.

It can be more than reasonably argued that Hurin unwillingly served Morgoth's purposes. In Doriath to a degree, but especially in Gondolin.

As for the other point's, the Oath of Feanor would not have harmed Morgoth if Maedhros had avaded capture, that was the oath working against the Son's purpose.

Possibly true, but speculation none the less. It's hard to guess what would have been different had he not been captured. I would have to guess that he would not have abdicated... Though the positives and negatives of that is also pure speculation...

And with Gwindor, Beleg being killed was probably to do with Morgoth's curse upon Hurin's kin, as was the destuction of Nargothrond.

You can't refute that Gwindor led him to Nargothrond. If Gwindor had not been there, how could he have found Nargothrond? Theoretically, he couldn't have. And if Gwindor had not been there with him, Turin would never have gained acceptance into the kingdom.

Once again, I'm not saying that any of them were consciously serving Morgoth. All the same, they all seem pretty pivotal in the destruction of a lot of the Elvish kingdoms, and I think it merits consideration...

[Durin1]

It has already been mentioned that thrall-elves were deliberately released by Morgoth to fulfil his purposes. Could Morgoth have released Gwindor so that he would meet Turin, thus aiding his curse? Hum....

Although Gwindor was in a pretty bad state, I believe that he was relatively healed when he came back to Nargothrond, although he could never forget his torment.

Gwindor continued to fight valiantly, and seems to have recognised the flaws in Turin's "open warfare" policy, and tried to prevent Turin from constructing the bridge. He can't have been too bound to Morgoth.