Elvish Perception of Time

[Elemmírë]

In another thread, we brushed up against the subject of how Elves perceive the passage of time, especially as compared to how Men perceive it. There seemed to be some differences of opinion regarding this topic.

Right, Pytt. Perhaps I should clarify exactly what I was nitpicking: Elves would conceive the idea of time differently from humans - immortality or even long life nescessitates a somewhat different outlook than mortality does. But they would not percieve its passage any differently.

This distinction is certainly splitting hairs (even for me ), but it's nescessary to counter the all-too-frequent assumption that elves somehow experience existance more slowly than humans. That is false - elves experience time the same way that humans do (which is a large part of the reason they constantly attempted to halt it in places like Rivendell and Lorien), they simply have a longer adult lifespan and so experience more of it. A 144 year old elf would expereince the same duration that a human would if they lived the same time - there's nothing qualitatively different between the way humans and elves (and Maiar, and Valar, and Rodents) experience the passageof time.

In Fellowship of the Ring, it is said, concerning this topic:

Nay, time does not tarry ever, but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.

Any ideas?

[BeardofPants]

I think it comes down to the differentiation between the perception of time. That is, building upon what shannon said, the passage of time passes as physically the same as the time that mortal men run on, BUT the perception of time is differentiated between the mortal and immortal kindred.

[Attalus]

My take is that the Elves percieve Time just as Men do. As Wayfarer says, immortals just have a different attitude to it. Even humans, as they grow older, see Time differently than children or adolescents do. One of my older patients told me recently that he hadn't even finished breakfast hardly before it was time for lunch. :D Probably something like that but exponentially different must happen to the Elves.

[Wayfarer]

Really, I'd bet anything that Elves experience the same things, juston a longer scale.

Recently I found myself looking back and saying 'Man, 2004 is almost done already? Seems like just yesterday it was just 2003. And the whole Y2K thing seems like it was just a little while ago'. Somehow, I imagine that if I were to live for another thousand years, what's to say I wouldn't look back and say 'Man, it's 3000 already? Seems like it was just 2000 a few days ago.'

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that elves don't even percieve time differently. The difference is in the way they remember past events (having much more history to recall) and the manner in which they anticipate future events (without the sense of urgency that comes from being mortal). Since experience only occurs in the present, and time proceeds equally for all entities, any different perception of time is wholly subjective.

[Elemmírë]

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that elves don't even percieve time differently. The difference is in the way they remember past events (having much more history to recall) and the manner in which they anticipate future events (without the sense of urgency that comes from being mortal). Since experience only occurs in the present, and time proceeds equally for all entities, any different perception of time is wholly subjective.

I don't think this argument is logical WF. Let's look at our lifespan as compared to an insect's. Many insects' lifespans are over within the passage of a single season. I cannot believe that one season would appear as long for an insect is it would for us.

This seems a bit like saying that everyone sees the world the same way, no matter how large or small they are. If an amoeba had eyes :p, it could never perceive the world around it the way we do.

And I would like to see you try to prove that time proceeds equally for all entities. :evil:

[Sister Golden Hair]

I don't think that the Elves even considered the passage of time until they met Men and especially when Men died. The Sil says that when Beor died "the Elves saw for the first time the swift waning of the lives of Men and the death of weariness that they knew not in themselves." So, the notice and effects of time came with Men to the Elves maybe.

[ItalianLegolas]

to elves, hundreds, or even thousands of years could be like human days, even though the same amount of time is passing

[Embladyne]

I don't think that the Elves even considered the passage of time until they met Men and especially when Men died. The Sil says that when Beor died "the Elves saw for the first time the swift waning of the lives of Men and the death of weariness that they knew not in themselves." So, the notice and effects of time came with Men to the Elves maybe.

This makes a lot of sense to me. At least more so than the theory that time seems to pass at different rates for different races. With such long lives, the Elves would have no reason, I believe, to mark time as humans do, and it would have little importance to them until they became familiar with races that time did have a large effect upon. And once they noticed the effects of time upon humans, Elves were still removed from these consequences, so I don't believe they would see the passage of time as humans do, even then.

[Sister Golden Hair]

to elves, hundreds, or even thousands of years could be like human days, even though the same amount of time is passing
I disagree with this. The Elves were not really unlike humans, except in their fates and endurance. They live and experienced time the same. The thing with the Elves was that they lived for so long that time became an enemy in a way that stalked them.

[Attalus]

I disagree with this. The Elves were not really unlike humans, except in their fates and endurance. They live and experienced time the same. The thing with the Elves was that they lived for so long that time became an enemy in a way that stalked them.Yes, I agree. Tolkien said in the Letters that we and the Elves are biologically the same species, since interbreeding produces fertile offspring. Perhaps they perceive the passing of time, to paraphrase Einstein's famous observation, more like the time spent with their lover than in the dentist's chair, but they live in the same continuum as mortal folk.

[Lefty Scaevola]

A key to understanding their view of time is their memory, which is photographic. Legolas says that "to Elves memory is more like the waking hours than like a dream". Their can experience their lives of hundreds of years ago as if it were today through their memory. Thus passage of time is not slow, but does not matter much. All their past life is as current to them as is today, its one large combined experience to them, rather than a sequence with the oldest parts fading away before the new. Thdy have no past, but rather a huge present and near present.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes. This is much like what Finrod tried to explain to Andreth in the Athrabeth. Good point Lefty.

[Minielin]

Thus passage of time is not slow, but does not matter much. I agree with this- I think elves have the same perception of time as mortals, but it's really a 'moot point. Hehe. ;)

[Wayfarer]

Well... the idea which I keep having is that an elf might think of time differently because he has experienced so much more of it.

It sort of ties into aging. When the two are newborn, they are completely indistinguishable. When they are very young, they are still very similar. Then they start to diverge.

I think at the age of 10, a human and an elf would think of time in almost the same fashion. At the age of 100, they would be biologically different (one young and one old), and so might have different expectations, but they would still think of the past in essentially the same way.

Now, if you were to take a human (say, Tuor) and grant him the longevity of the Eldar, he would experience hundreds, maybe thousands of years. I don't think that Tuor would experience time or percieve its passage any differently when he was mortal - but he would certainly think of it in a slightly different way when he was 1000 than he did when he was 50, but only in the same way that a human in their 60s thinks of time differently than someone in their teens - because they've experienced more.

It's not a matter of there being anything essentially different - it's the matter of perspective. Much like the way someone who has never left the town of their birth might have differing opinions of distance than someone who has circumnavigated the globe.

[Embladyne]

At the moment, I'm taking a bio class on the mechanisms the human brain uses to store memories, and it's interesting to reread this thread with what we've discussed in the class in mind. :cool:
I wonder if the way in which elves recall memories would vary from that of the average human, since elves seem to consistantly have such vivid memories. Maybe it would just be the way in which they perceive the recalled memories....

[ItalianLegolas]

Now that I'm, reading one of the many Tolkien encyclopedia's, I have a new theory.

If a Valarian Age is more or less 1000 years long in mortal time, and since the elves (in my mind anyway) are kind of like men who are closer to Valar, perhaps elves experience 500 years in the same amount of time that Men experience 1000 and gods experience 100

[Wayfarer]

No.

You're missing the point. Completely. Men, Elves, and Valar are all subject to time - one second passes at the same speed for everyone, unless some sort of temporal distortion has occured (which it hasn't). If they did exist in an altered time rate, humans would move twice as fast as elves and ten times as fast as the valar (basically). That's just not the way it works.

There are differences in the scale of measurement, but those are only for convenience. There isn't any difference in the rate at which events are experienced,

[Elemmírë]

I don't know if this is exactly what ItalianLegolas is getting at, but if so, I likewise have wondered if time passes differently in Valinor than in ME... I don't have the quotes to prove it right now...

...and my mom is pulling me off the computer so I can't add anything more right now... :mad:

[ItalianLegolas]

that was pretty much what i was going for, it was just a random idea I got when I was reading anyhow.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I forget exactly how it was explained about how time passed in Valinor in the Years of the Trees, but they went through cycles of 12 twelve hours, and one would wax ehile the other waned. However, I would think for all the lived in Middle-earth, that they experienced the passage of time the same, after the rising of the sun and moon.

[BeardofPants]

SGH is, I believe, right. The two trees waxed and waned according to the time-span of the sun & moon ... which WAS their direct 'descendent', so-to-speak.

[ItalianLegolas]

yeah, I have this chart of the exact amounts of time of the waxing and waneing, if I find it I'll post it up

[Blackheart]

uhh... you all know that time is relative right?

The question is not whether 5 seconds on a hot stove is longer than 5 seconds kissing a pretty girl... It's whether 5 seconds on a hot stove is longer for an elf or a man... or whether 100 years in jail is longer for an elf than a man...

Time is relative according to the observer. Since elves observe more time (total) than men, the extreme boundries will be compressed, but the present, the nearest observed events, will be about the same.... (think of time as an X axis, and lifespan as a y axis, put a reverse bell curve on it...)

So 5 seconds, a day, a week, is probably perceived about the same. But years, decades, millenia... those are compressed, and experienced differently. Just how differently is a matter of speculation...

[Embladyne]

That bellcurve theory sounds pretty good. I'm gonna go think about it for a while...

[Elemmírë]

I agree with Blackheart here too.


You're missing the point. Completely. Men, Elves, and Valar are all subject to time - one second passes at the same speed for everyone, unless some sort of temporal distortion has occured (which it hasn't). If they did exist in an altered time rate, humans would move twice as fast as elves and ten times as fast as the valar (basically). That's just not the way it works.


I would have to wonder what the case is with places such as Lothlorien and Rivendell in the Third Age. Can you not claim that the Rings of Power themselves effected the passage of time... Especially Lothlorien. This is why Wayfarer's comment struck me. It almost seems (to me at least) that a temporal distortion has occurred. Frodo's comment, for example:

"In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by."

I forget exactly how it was explained about how time passed in Valinor in the Years of the Trees, but they went through cycles of 12 twelve hours, and one would wax ehile the other waned.

And yet a Valinorean year was equivalent to 10 years of the sun. I wonder if this was experienced as one or as ten...

I commented on Valinor earlier because I remembered reading something about the lifespans of other creatures in Valinor being longer (does someone know what I'm talking about, it's been a while...), which was part of the reason Men could not live there...

[Blackheart]

Well.. if you think about it, a man living in valinor would expereince the present just the same as he always did.
But if somehow his perception of time were changed (remember that bell curve) then it would seem to him that indeed his end came on swiftly... because he would have aquired an elvish perception of time.

Just the thing for a ring bearer weary of life....

[Elemmírë]

Yes. I personally do not see how one can feel anything but short-lived when everything around one remains relatively unchanged... And that probably works the opposite way as well, with the Eldar in ME. It all is perception, and like you've said before, Blackheart, that perception changes with the circumstances...

It kind of reminds me what SGH said earlier: "I don't think that the Elves even considered the passage of time until they met Men and especially when Men died. [...] So, the notice and effects of time came with Men to the Elves maybe."

[Blackheart]

Possibly. The "waning" of the elves starts when men awaken... But by then it's the second age... The elves are no longer "young"... not as a race. The swift days of the sun may have also contributed to the elves' sense of world weariness...

[ethuiliel]

I think that Elves and humans probably experience the present pretty much in the same way. An hour or two probably feels equally long to each. But the past and the future would be different. Ten years, a hundred years, a thousand years in the past or the future would seem much closer to an Elf than to a human.

[Holbytla]

I think that Elves and humans probably experience the present pretty much in the same way. An hour or two probably feels equally long to each. But the past and the future would be different. Ten years, a hundred years, a thousand years in the past or the future would seem much closer to an Elf than to a human.

Hmm, hope I get this " quote thingie" right..! Well, it seems ( to me anyway) that the past and the future is more present (!), than the - present? How able are we really to grasp the present, really? Don't we often make plans and ponder over things that have happened, and things that may happen than the actual moment? I wonder if Elves are the same? Or would the moment be more crucial to an immortal being? It may sound like a contradiction, since one would think that it is more important for a mortal to " live in the moment" so to speak.

Holbytla

[Elemmírë]

Hmm, hope I get this " quote thingie" right..! Well, it seems ( to me anyway) that the past and the future is more present (!), than the - present? How able are we really to grasp the present, really? Don't we often make plans and ponder over things that have happened, and things that may happen than the actual moment? I wonder if Elves are the same? Or would the moment be more crucial to an immortal being? It may sound like a contradiction, since one would think that it is more important for a mortal to " live in the moment" so to speak.

Holbytla

Well... you bring up some interesting points, Holbytla. The Elves are known to live (at least by the time the Third Age came around) more in the past than the present. Gimli, for example, notes that for Elves "memory is more like to the waking world than to a dream" (FOTR, Farewell to Lórien). I think that for the Elves, the past is more important than the present, hence the fading...

If one holds the belief that there really is no present (as I believe I do)... that there is simply past and future, and the point where they meet... then I suppose that perception of time would depend on how you see the past and the future... I wonder... But it's getting too late now and I'll have to think on this further.

[ethuiliel]

I think I worded what I said wrong. I didn't percisely mean the present but more the near past and future -- within a day, or at most a week.

[Pytt]

Well... you bring up some interesting points, Holbytla. The Elves are known to live (at least by the time the Third Age came around) more in the past than the present. Gimli, for example, notes that for Elves "memory is more like to the waking world than to a dream" (FOTR, Farewell to Lórien). I think that for the Elves, the past is more important than the present, hence the fading...

If one holds the belief that there really is no present (as I believe I do)... that there is simply past and future, and the point where they meet... then I suppose that perception of time would depend on how you see the past and the future... I wonder... But it's getting too late now and I'll have to think on this further.

That is very filosofic. I have never really thought about how I see time. But I think I see time as you say. There is no real present, it is just future and past. But what is it when they meet? that ceartainly have to be present. Or... I have to think about this when I'm not so tired.

[ethuiliel]

There is a present, but it's only an instant long at a time. But sometimes you have to consider a longer span of time "the present" relative to other times, hundreds or thousands of years early or later... which is what I meant.

[Elemmírë]

There is a present, but it's only an instant long at a time. But sometimes you have to consider a longer span of time "the present" relative to other times, hundreds or thousands of years early or later... which is what I meant.

It's an interesting topic in general, but probably not to be argued in depth here. If you ever want to take it over to GM, I'd be happy to oblige. :)

Ethuiliel, I have to ask you, though, what exactly is an instant? It can't be the same as a second, because by the time you reach the second quarter of a second, the first is in the past and the rest is still in the future. And you could break it up even further.

Infinitesimally.

So... what exactly is time?

[Blackheart]

Time is the wrapper around the candy of the universe...

Don't bother to try and understand it or I'll explain it to you....