Glaurung

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

By some posts in the Turin Turambar and Free Will thread me and Elemmire got into discussing Glaurung. Here are the last two posts about him.

But when Fingon shot at Glaurung he wasn't full grown to man/dragonhood. When Turin defied him he was at the height of his power.

Fingon still shot him.

I'd think that being shot when just a child would have some serious psychological damage. I'm surprised poor Glaurung even got over it...

*reads post*

*reads the last few posts*

Wow. That was horribly Off Topic.

When Fingon shot Glaurung he was still, not a young child I'd say, but what we'd class as a teenager, around 15. In combat, would you prefer to face a 15 year old boy/man or a 30 year old man? This is same sort of thing. When Fingon shot Glaurung it was when he was not fully developed and not in close combat.
When Turin met him he was at the height of his power and it was face to face.
See the difference?

[Pytt]

clearly.
as I see it you are right TD. I think a dragon like Glaurung would be able to take more damage, than a human at the same age.

[Elemmírë]

OH MY GOD!

I was joking, TD!

I can't believe you just started a thread about that!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

clearly.
as I see it you are right TD. I think a dragon like Glaurung would be able to take more damage, than a human at the same age.
Glaurung still took some arrows which any man would not be able to take and live, but for a dragon he was not fully developed as he was when he met Turin.

OH MY GOD!

I was joking, TD!

I can't believe you just started a thread about that!
:evil:

[Elemmírë]

Stupid, pointless, and annoying... :p

But now I'm going to have to defend my joke.

I honestly don't think that the dragon would have been traumatised, so to speak. It just looked amusing on the screen... :D. However, I do believe that until Glaurung was killed by Turin (obviously), he had been more injured by Fingon.

So, what exactly are you arguing, TD, that Glaurung was more hurt by Turin at Nargothrond, where (if I read it right ;) ) Turin did not get as much as a single stroke of his sword in before he fell under the dragon's spell? :rolleyes: ;)

Or are we debating something entirely different now?

I don't think I understand your argument.

[Wayfarer]

When Fingon shot Glaurung he was still, not a young child I'd say, but what we'd class as a teenager, around 15. In combat, would you prefer to face a 15 year old boy/man or a 30 year old man? This is same sort of thing. When Fingon shot Glaurung it was when he was not fully developed and not in close combat.
When Turin met him he was at the height of his power and it was face to face.
See the difference?

I have two letters for you. The first is N. The second is O.

Fingon was born during the Years of the Trees - a period which lasted approximately 10000 sun-years. As far as I know it doesn't say when during that period he was born, but since by the time the Noldor came to Middle Earth he was already respected among his people in addition to being strong enough to march into the heart of hell to rescue his best friend (FA5), It's a good bet that he'd already reached his majority by that time. Furthermore, Glaurung was not spotted for another 250 years (FA260) - which means that Fingon would have been well into his 300th Year at the bare minimum.

Since one of the Eldar would be full grown at an absolute maximum of 150 Years, claiming that Fingon was 'a child of about 15' is entirely ludicris. Fingon was a full grown, highly trained, battle hardened WAR HERO, who was furthermore backed up by a squad of crack archers. This is a FACT. It is NOT OPEN TO DISCUSSION BY THE PEANUT GALLERY.*relax* Oh yeah. That was a nice rant.

[Elemmírë]

Wait... now I'm confused.

TD, are you claiming that Fingon was 15, or that Glaurung was 15?

Because Wayfarer is completely correct if it's the former.

[Wayfarer]

GRRRR! Correct pronoun reference is your friend, people!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Wait... now I'm confused.

TD, are you claiming that Fingon was 15, or that Glaurung was 15?

Because Wayfarer is completely correct if it's the former.
No, what I'm saying is that Glaurung at the time of Fingon shooting him could be as developed for a dragon as a 15 year old, not full come to man/dragonhood. Not that he actually was 15 and I'm definitly not sayin that Fingon was 15!

[Elemmírë]

You had better edit your first post, if you don't want any more snide remarks from the Unsufferable...

btw, Wayfarer, I am not and never will be a member of the "Peanut Gallery." :p Why don't you come join us and stop making strange sounds... :D

TD, can you tell me what exactly we're debating? Is it simply who hurt Glaurung more: Fingon or Turin (prior to the slaying)?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not really. Just Glaurung! :D

[Elemmírë]

You have got to be kidding. :p

But I've always had a question about the dragons.

Where did they come from? Morgoth is unable to create his own creatures, but can only imitate the creations of other Valar and of Eru...

So... trolls are from Ents.
Orcs are from Elves (and humans).

What about the dragons?

[Pytt]

maybe from eagles? :confused: the only thing I can think of. but doesn't it stands in the Sil how Morgoth created them?

[BeardofPants]

I seem to remember tolkien experimenting with the notion of artificial (machine) dragons in HoME somewhere... Anyhoo, the point being that Morgoth could only pervert, not create life. Artificiality adds an interesting element to this.

Okay, I know, that was no help. Just musing to myself. I'll go over here now.

*BoP shifts her ass out of the thread*

:o

[Elemmírë]

That actually is interesting, and helpful. Thanks, BoP. :)

So... I'm assuming that dragons breed kind of like everything else does (assuming how Glaurung is called "Father of Dragons"...hm, I wonder who the mother was :D ). How would artificiality affect that? My guess is it's kind of paradoxical.

[Lefty Scaevola]

(assuming how Glaurung is called "Father of Dragons"...hm, I wonder who the mother was :D ). Morgoth swings boths ways.

[Elemmírë]

Morgoth swings boths ways.

:eek:

(the sad thing is I actually found myself considering that for a moment...I seem to remember reading something about gender in the Valar, but if I didn't just fall asleep and make it up while reading the Silm, I can't find it now... :o )

:p

[Wayfarer]

Actually... Lefty's suggestion is perhaps correct on one level (though wrong on another).

Although in the earliest drafts the Valar are mentioned as having children, Tolkien later abandoned that idea, and at one point he does specify that Morgoth, in his fallen state, would be incapable of even the minor creative act of conceiving children. Morgoth was, however, physically capable of sexual acts for other purposes - and given those purposes I don't think he'd make much of a distinction between male and female.

[Elemmírë]

*shudders*

Off Topic and intensely disturbing...

Congratulations, Wayfarer!

Oh, god... I wonder what the admins would do if you tried to start a thread up about that... :eek:

hm... even more Off Topic: do you really consider conceiving children to be an act of "minor" creative power?

Back to Glaurung though, I suppose a living/machine hybrid could theoretically be possible... Would such a creature be capable of begetting offspring?

[Attalus]

Well, since almost any human (Elf or Man) can concieve children, and nobody but Eru could create a new life form, I think procreation could justly be called a minor creation.

[inked]

If I understand correctly, (and I think I do :) ) the Roman Catholic and Christian understanding is that procreation by humans (and by extension to the Elves/Dwarves/Hobbits) is CO-CREATION with God. It is a human participatory action in time and eternity with the Creator. So (and not only because I am an OB/GYN !), I would consider it the major form of human creativity. :D

[Attalus]

Major (and only) form of human creativity, yes, but not on the scale of the creation of a whole sentient race.

[Blackheart]

If I recall correctly, it's said that Morgoth bred the dragons from worms. Though I can't remember where... possibly in LT or UT...

Now of course it doesn't means earthworms, Wyrm in old english is also applied to snakes. I'd say that snakes are probably the best guess.

Oh.. and as for wounding Glaurung, Azaghâl probably did the most damage up until Turin struck a deathblow.


He did it the same way, underneath, though he didn't have the benefit of a handy chasm to avoid being crushed...

[Durin1]

Wow! What a weird thread! :p

Glaurung wasn't fully developed when Fingon sent him packing. Not just in terms of his natural armour i.e. scales, but also in terms of his relative size. The archers were therefore able to penetrate Glaurung quite easily, which also meant that they wouldn't have had to get too close to him either.

As Blackheart has mentioned (and i'm surprised that nobody else has commented on it), Azarghal and the Dwarves were very effective against the dragon during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

In fact if it wasn't for them, most of the remaining Noldor, especially the eastern force, would have been completely destroyed. So you can say that Azarghal did the most damage to Glaurung; for the Dwarves must have scuppered one of Morgoth's main plans/strategies.

[Elemmírë]

Wow! What a weird thread! :p

My sincerest apologies. :rolleyes:

It's not my fault! :p

As Blackheart has mentioned (and i'm surprised that nobody else has commented on it), Azarghal and the Dwarves were very effective against the dragon during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

Eh... no, I'm not surprised that I missed that. The only things I remember about dwarves without really thinking are that they helped build Nargothrond and that they killed Thingol. :evil: :cool:

And, well... my attention tends to waver after the Gaurhoth... :( ;)

So you can say that Azarghal did the most damage to Glaurung; for the Dwarves must have scuppered one of Morgoth's main plans/strategies.

And yet I don't remember any hideous curse or spell being attempted on any Dwarf.

But then again, I don't think that the chief part of Glaurung's hatred was upon Turin. Simply opportunity. :evil:

[Durin1]

My sincerest apologies. :rolleyes:

It's not my fault! :p



Eh... no, I'm not surprised that I missed that. The only things I remember about dwarves without really thinking are that they helped build Nargothrond and that they killed Thingol. :evil: :cool:




And, well... my attention tends to waver after the Gaurhoth... :( ;)



And yet I don't remember any hideous curse or spell being attempted on any Dwarf.



But then again, I don't think that the chief part of Glaurung's hatred was upon Turin. Simply opportunity. :evil:

Heh, killing Thingol was based on provocation on his part. We... I mean the Dwarves :D are a great Race. If it wasn't for the Dwarves, Menegroth would never have become "the fairest dwelling of any king east of the Sea".

Well, for one thing, the Dwarves wore "great masks, hideous to look upon , which stood them in good stead against the flames of Glaurung" (or something like that.. Haven't got the book to hand). They are the "most redoubtable warriors of all speaking peoples" according to Tolkien (Peoples of ME, Of Dwarves and Men).

[Blackheart]

Are you sure those were masks?

[Elemmírë]

Heh, killing Thingol was based on provocation on his part. We... I mean the Dwarves :D are a great Race. If it wasn't for the Dwarves, Menegroth would never have become "the fairest dwelling of any king east of the Sea".

You misunderstand me. I have nothing against the Dwarves for killing Thingol. I hate him. ;)

Well, for one thing, the Dwarves wore "great masks, hideous to look upon , which stood them in good stead against the flames of Glaurung" (or something like that.. Haven't got the book to hand). They are the "most redoubtable warriors of all speaking peoples" according to Tolkien (Peoples of ME, Of Dwarves and Men).

Are you sure those were masks?

They were masks. From the Silmarillion:

...the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and those stood them in good stead against the dragons.

Nice paraphrasing, Durin1. :)

[Blackheart]

I think you missed the point of asking the dwarf if the hideous ugly masks were indeed masks......

[Elemmírë]

haha! :p

eh, yeah. Did miss that before... :o

[Durin1]

Beauty is only skin deep! ;)

[Blackheart]

But.. ugly goes all the way to the bone.... :D

[Durin1]

You're a fine one to talk! How's your face after Fingolfin slashed it a few times? :D

[Elemmírë]

Still limping from that one, are we? :evil:

[Blackheart]

Hmmph.

Some guys look better with a little scar on their face...
:mad:

Oh.. and I walk that way cause I'm Stiff.... :D

[BeardofPants]

Guess that's what happens when your slong goes to yer knees, huh?

[Elemmírë]

I'm trying to study, Boppy! Study!

:rolleyes: ;)

[BeardofPants]

Oh by all means, don't let cthulhu's slong distract you! :evil:

[Blackheart]

Which one... most of them go to my knees....

[Lenya]

Glaurung would have been better if he had wings. Then he would have rocked! I must admit, he has particular talent for messing up people's lives.

[ItalianLegolas]

maybe he had a depressing childhood! maybe his parents were drunks! :D

[Elemmírë]

I'd like to announce that I've had a change of heart. :)

Ancalagon. Now that's my type of dragon. :D

How tragic... think of all the glorious ruin he could have accomplished had he survived the War of Wrath... :(

[Lenya]

:) I didn't picture you as the destruction type. Yes, he would have wrecked havock.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Which is why he had to be killed! ;)

[Lenya]

Before he really did anything.

[Elemmírë]

*sigh* Before he could do anything. Too true... :(

:) I didn't picture you as the destruction type. Yes, he would have wrecked havock.

:evil:

I usually go for the "bad guys." Morally ambiguous and all.... though, I suppose that there's nothing really ambiguous about Ancalagon... :o

Finrod is just a very, very strange exception. My second favourite characters are Feanorians, after all. :D

[Embladyne]

My second favourite characters are Feanorians, after all. :DYeah, but the ones you like aren't the evil ones....at least not how I see it...

But, I have to admit that when I read about Glaurung being slain, I am somewhat sad. And not because he's a bad guy. I wish there was some way that the dragons could have been used against Sauron or Morgoth. They are extremely awesome creatures because of their great strength and what not....and they're dangerous....that's the part I really like... :)

[Lenya]

My second favourite characters are Feanorians, after all. :D

Damn. Now why did you have to go and say that? Did I mention that I don't like Feanorians? :D

They are extremely awesome creatures because of their great strength and what not....and they're dangerous....that's the part I really like...

And they look excelent, and a great big part them is left to your imagination. That's the part I like :)

[Elemmírë]

Damn. Now why did you have to go and say that? Did I mention that I don't like Feanorians? :D

I only like four of them... (mm... and Celebrimbor I suppose makes five) :p The others I despise completely... ;)

And they look excelent, and a great big part them is left to your imagination. That's the part I like :)

They're dragons. That's the part I like. I love dragons... :D

[ItalianLegolas]

dragons are cool, as long as thet are evil, if they are all nice and heroic, its ot as cool, it feels cheesy when they're good.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I only like four of them... (mm... and Celebrimbor I suppose makes five) :p The others I despise completely... ;)
The four would be Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir and Fëanor I guess! :D

[ItalianLegolas]

uh oh, don't tell Beren 3000 that!

[Embladyne]

I only like four of them... (mm... and Celebrimbor I suppose makes five) :p The others I despise completely... ;)Funny thing, I know exactly the four you mean, and I entirely agree.
The four would be Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir and Fëanor I guess!You evil man, to suggest such a thing. :p
They're dragons. That's the part I like. I love dragons... :DYes, completely :)

[Elemmírë]

dragons are cool, as long as thet are evil, if they are all nice and heroic, its ot as cool, it feels cheesy when they're good.

I like it best when they're neither good nor evil. Kind of beyond human morality and everything... Ursula Leguin's Earthsea dragons for example.

The four would be Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir and Fëanor I guess!

Oh, most certainly. Ah... I suppose I don't hate Fëanor... he's an interesting enough character... even if he is overly arrogant, rash, and murderous for my tastes. Those three sons though... ick! :p

Don't worry, IL, it's the M's and the A's that I like... especially the M's. :p

[Embladyne]

I like it best when they're neither good nor evil. Kind of beyond human morality and everything... Ursula Leguin's Earthsea dragons for example. Oh, yes. Those are some of my favorites. Have you read her most recent book? It's a collection of short stories...and there's an interesting one dealing with the issue of whether or not dragons and humans used to be a single species (in Earthsea) that split...it's an odd theory, but cool.
it's the M's and the A's that I like... especially the M's. :pI like the A's more...

[Elemmírë]

I've read it. :)

You like them more? Because they're twins or because they're redheads? Maedhros is a redhead too, you know... :p

[Embladyne]

I've read it. :)

You like them more? Because they're twins or because they're redheads? Maedhros is a redhead too, you know... :p"cause they're twins AND redheads.... :D Somehow, I'm not sure if I like Maedros as much as Maglor, though...
(look at me spamming this thread...goodness!)

[ItalianLegolas]

so their red-heads, whats the big deal?!? :confused: and Maehdros is a much cooler name then Maglor, but that doesn't have anything to do with anything

[Elemmírë]

"cause they're twins AND redheads.... :D Somehow, I'm not sure if I like Maedros as much as Maglor, though...
(look at me spamming this thread...goodness!)

Erm... any red dragons? :o

But he's a redhead!

so their red-heads, whats the big deal?!? and Maehdros is a much cooler name then Maglor, but that doesn't have anything to do with anything

My dear, my dear. The "big deal" is that we are superficial teenagers who happen to like redheads and cool names. For me, of course, what the name means (and it's Quenya translation) is far more important than the Sindarin.

And I actually like both names (my favourite is Russandol though... and not because I used to call my own brother the English translation of that).

Speaking of names, anyone know what Ancalagon and Glaurung mean? My Sindarin is rather bad.

Ancalagon. hm. Ancala kind of sounds like "brightest" (from ancalima elenion, brightest of stars), and gon reminds me of Turgon and Fingon, where it sort of means "commander".

Brightest Commander, however, doesn't seem right for someone called "The Black" so I'm assuming I'm wrong somewhere... :p

[Embladyne]

Erm... any red dragons? :oSmaug?

[Elemmírë]

I never actually got through the Hobbit... Is he your favourite then? :p

[Pytt]

Ellie?! :eek: You don't have read The Hobbit?

Smaug is of course not cooler than Glaurung. That would been like saying that young whippersnapper Gwaihir is cooler than myself :evil:

[Embladyne]

I never actually got through the Hobbit... Is he your favourite then? :pNope, not my fav....I just remember that I believe he is described as being red.

[Valandil]

I never actually got through the Hobbit...

:confused: :confused:

*chokes on something or other*

:eek:

Gah!

LM... you... you... you never read... 'The Hobbit'!?!?!??? :confused: :eek:

[Elemmírë]

:confused: :confused:

*chokes on something or other*

:eek:

Gah!

LM... you... you... you never read... 'The Hobbit'!?!?!??? :confused: :eek:

Yeesh. You okay there, Val? Pytt? :rolleyes:

Well... I read it. Sort of. In spurts and horribly out of order. I didn't like it very much. I read the first 50+ pages and then quit. And then realised I had to keep going, and just started reading it randomly.

I've pretty much read all of it... but I read LotR first, and IMO, the Hobbit simply can't compare. I think I know all of it, just not details such as Thranduil was blonde and Smaug red. Go figure. :p

Didn't I mention that I hate Hobbits? :D

And I don't particularly like Dwarves either...

[Pytt]

Yeah, I am ok. in a way... But.. No, I have to go for some shock treatment..
I mean, The Hobbit is really a lovely book. You have at least enough self respect to read it, partly at least... :rolleyes:

[Valandil]

Yeesh. You okay there, Val? Pytt? :rolleyes:

Well... I read it. Sort of. In spurts and horribly out of order. I didn't like it very much. I read the first 50+ pages and then quit. And then realised I had to keep going, and just started reading it randomly.

I've pretty much read all of it... but I read LotR first, and IMO, the Hobbit simply can't compare. I think I know all of it, just not details such as Thranduil was blonde and Smaug red. Go figure. :p

Didn't I mention that I hate Hobbits? :D

And I don't particularly like Dwarves either...

Gah... and double-gah!!! :eek:

*runs away from the heresy*




;)

[ItalianLegolas]

in the cartoon version of the Hobbit (where he looks like a cross between a fish and a cat) hes red isn't he?

[Elemmírë]

I don't like the Hobbit.

I shall scream it to the world! I hate Hobbits! I don't like Dwarves! I am simply one of the oddest Tolkien fans you'll find! Especially since I can say that in Quenya: Nevenye Periandi. Umin melë Naucor! hm... I think that's right...

No Hobbits in the Silm. Anyone still wonder why it's my favourite? :p No Hobbits and tons and tons of Elves.

But yes, Pytt. I had to read it in order to understand what was happening. After reading LotR and the Silm though... It simply wasn't... heroic enough, I suppose...

I did enjoy looking for links to the First Age though. ;)

[edited](where he looks like a cross between a fish and a cat)
beautiful picture... ;)

[Embladyne]

in the cartoon version of the Hobbit (where he looks like a cross between a fish and a cat) hes red isn't he?Don't know. Couldn't bear to degrade self enough to watch that version.
(I'm a cartoon elitist ;) )

[ItalianLegolas]

I was 5 when I watched it, OK?!? ITS NOT MY FAULT!!

[Pytt]

Is that the horrible cartoon where they have put in real pictures, and stuff? We saw it on school, but I have suppresed it *shrug*

[Blackheart]

Nope, not my fav....I just remember that I believe he is described as being red.

Smaug was golden... Reddish gold however...

[ItalianLegolas]

yes, he is called "Smaug the Golden"

[Nurvingiel]

Tolkien himself drew this picture of Smaug.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/Nurvingiel/Random/tolkien_smaug.jpg
EDIT: For some reason [img] tags don't work. :confused: You can still click the link though.

From: http://www.tolkien.co.uk/frame.asp. Curse you frames!

Are Glaurung, Smaug, and Ancalagon thr Black the only dragons ever mentioned? I'll take any source - HoME, LotR, the Sil, etc.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Scatha the Worm was mentioned in the LotR Appendices.

[Elemmírë]

Hm. Are worms and dragons always the same thing? :confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think so.

[Elemmírë]

Well. I suppose it makes sense. I can't think of anything else it could be... I mean, honestly...

Fear me! I am Scatha the Earthworm!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And he said that the Rohirrim bought treasures from his hoard and I doubt earthworms have hoards of treasure.

[Elemmírë]

It could be a very small hoard of treasure.

grr... I hate the 90 second rule...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No treasure hoard is that small.

Argh. 90 second rule.

[Elemmírë]

I beg to differ.

Just because it cannot be seen by the naked eye doesn't mean it does not exist.

You said the Rohirrim bought it from him?

I wonder what our delightful earthworm managed to earn from that endeavour... :p

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well Scatha was slain by one of the Kings of Rohan (I think, i o not have the books handy at the moment to check) and he brought treasures from his hoard bac to Rohan.

[Elemmírë]

You left out the R before. :p Careful there. Now we have earthworm salesmen running around Middle Earth.

J'ai besoin d'aller...

[Embladyne]

Fear me! I am Scatha the Earthworm!ROTFL :D imagine trying to steal a treasure you can't even see...reminds me of the Emperor's new clothes fable

[Valandil]

Well Scatha was slain by one of the Kings of Rohan (I think, i o not have the books handy at the moment to check) and he brought treasures from his hoard bac to Rohan.

Actually - a predecessor of the Kings of Rohan. In the late 1970's TA (1978?), Frumgar led the Eotheod north from the Vales of Anduin, where his people had been settled for about 100 years after all the troubles they had with the Wainriders, etc.

It was Frumgar's son, Fram, who slew Scatha - who I'm certain was indeed a dragon. Fram made a necklace of his teeth and offered it to the dwarves instead of their treasure they wanted back (they got ticked and killed him) - so I guess Scatha was one of those dragons who plundered a dwarvish treasury.

It wasn't until about 500 years later, 2510, IIRC, that Fram's distant descendant Eorl led the Eotheod south to rescue the forces of Gondor - and stuck around at the invitation of Cirion the Steward, settling in Calenardhon.

They had about 500 years to squander whatever treasure that Fram got from Scatha - or to squabble over it... unless the Dwarves managed to take some back once they made the hit on Fram. :evil:

[Pytt]

Can't they just call them wyrms, when they are similar to dragons? I always imgaine worms, and that is...scary.

and the 90 second rule is out ;)

[Blackheart]

Wyrm is the older spelling of worm.

And in the middle ages, dragons were thought to be creatures of the deep earth, related to worms. Of course, they also thought snakes were a type of worm.

You can see the progression... Stick some wings on a snake (a symbol of evil from ancient times) maybe some legs (not all of them had legs) add a little hellfire and brimstone, and viola, the devil's own Wyrm... A dragon.

[Elemmírë]

That's what threw me. Worms, instead of wyrms. Thanks for the info on the Rohirrim, Val. :D All that is your department, definitely not mine. ;)

Blackheart, it's somewhat strange that the snake is a symbol of evil in Christian theology... If you were to look at some of the Eastern religions, they're anything but.

I still love dragons. :D

[Pytt]

Yes. Thank you for the explantion :)

[Blackheart]

Blackheart, it's somewhat strange that the snake is a symbol of evil in Christian theology... If you were to look at some of the Eastern religions, they're anything but.

That would be due to the difference in how eastern mystic thought regards cthonic forces. Dragons are creatures of the earth. Quite natural and right (though they can be dangerous to rouse) in the east.

In the west the earth is the abode of the devil. Especially in the post christian era. It's not hard to see how the split occured.

[snakes=dragons for most mystic purposes, only a difference in degree not type]

[Valandil]

Most of it (esp the part on Fram & Scatha - which is only there, IIRC) is in Appendix A. But there's also some really cool stuff in the story 'Cirion and Eorl' in 'Unfinished Tales'. It doesn't just start with Eorl leading his people to fight for Gondor - it goes way back and tells about the relationship between their peoples for the previous hundreds of years, for the Rohirrim came from the Northmen of Rhovanion - but through many twists and turns and maybe 1300 years. It's interesting stuff. That story also gives the account of the death of King Ondoher and his sons; Artamir and Faramir (father & brothers of Firiel ;) ).

'Rohan' was the name Gondor used for them - and they only began to call their kingdom that after they settled Calenardhon. In the north, UT gives the precise information, but IIRC, they had one main city located where two rivers join together at the head of Anduin.

[Elemmírë]

In the west the earth is the abode of the devil. Especially in the post christian era. It's not hard to see how the split occured.


You say post Christian. Why not Christian itself?

That story also gives the account of the death of King Ondoher and his sons; Artamir and Faramir (father & brothers of Firiel ;) ).

I was wondering why those names sounded familiar... :p

[Blackheart]

Post Christian as in after the establishment of the catholic church.
Before that the "devil" wasn't actually envisioned so much as a central figure of evil.