Why Did Elros Choose A Mortal Life?

[ItalianLegolas]

As many of you probably know, Elrond had a twin brother named Elros, they were known as the 'Half-Elven' because their father Earendil the Mariner was the son of Tuor(a man of the line of Huor) and Idril Cebrindal(an elfen Princess, the daughter of Turgon), and the twins mother was Elwing (the Grandaughter of Luthien and Beren). As you also might know, the Half-Elven were given the choice to be either mortal of Elfen because of thier blood, Elrond obviously chose an Elfen life-span, but Elros chose to be mortal and went on to be the first King of Numenor. So the question is....WHY? :confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well it is said that Earendiel's heart was always among men, and he only chose to be elven (not elfen! ;)) so he could live forever as a star of Varda. Maybe this was true for Elros (apart from he did live with men and choose the mortal life.)

[Valandil]

Keep in mind that not EVERYONE wants to be an Elf! :p

Don't know if JRRT really went into WHY Elros made the choice he did, but we could ask the inverse question of Elrond. Why did HE choose to be an Elf?

Maybe the choice was given to them because Eru knew that they would make contrary choices, and that both kindreds would thus be enhanced - the Elves by Elrond, and Men by Elros. :)

[Elemmírë]

There are many arguments that could be made. Why did Luthien accept the offer of mortality? Obviously for love. Is something similar so impossible?

Of course, that's just conjecture.

Keep in mind that not EVERYONE wants to be an Elf! :p

Don't know if JRRT really went into WHY Elros made the choice he did, but we could ask the inverse question of Elrond. Why did HE choose to be an Elf?


In many ways, Humans seem to have a better fate than Elves. One could argue who is truly immortal. As Finrod says in the Athrabeth concerning the inevitable end of Arda and of the Eldar,

But the end will come. That we all know. And then we must die; we must perish utterly, it seems, for we belong to Arda (in hröa and fëa. And beyond that what? "The going out to no return," as you say; "the uttermost end, the irremediable loss"?

Death was not called 'The Gift of Men' for no reason.

Is it so strange that Elros might have preferred this to the suffering of the Noldor...?

btw, Valandil, how's the Athrabeth coming? ;)

[Artanis]

I agree with Elemmire, I think we shall remember that death was Iluvatar's gift to Men. :)

[Valandil]

btw, Valandil, how's the Athrabeth coming? ;)

Gotta split real soon (from work... not another thread! :D )!

Will try to say something in that thread tomorrow... :)

[Elemmírë]

Gotta split real soon (from work... not another thread! :D )!

Will try to say something in that thread tomorrow... :)

:)

Hm. So... you get paid for this? That's like my mom... She used to spend half her day at work on a forum... Completely obsessed. It was quite funny (a college forum ;) ). Don't know what ever happened with that.

Gyaa... nothing more to add...

Sorry for the OT. :o

[Manveru]

maybe Elros chose to be a man so he could become the king of numenor...

[ItalianLegolas]

Were Elros and Elrond even Noldorian???

oh yeah... he was, nevermind

[ItalianLegolas]

Death was not called 'The Gift of Men' for no reason.

Is it so strange that Elros might have preferred this to the suffering of the Noldor...?



okay the orignal post was wrong so i changed it

[Wayfarer]

*twitch*

*twitchtwitch*

*twitchtwitchtwitch*

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[Nurvingiel]

What's the matter Wayfarer? You seem to be having a conniption fit over there. I think this thread is interesting.

Sadly, other than pointing out that I have always wondered this too, (and poking fun at you ;) ) I have nothing useful to add.

[Elemmírë]

Possibly, but Elrond was not really affected by the struggles of the Noldor, except perhaps in the last book, when Arwen is dying

You do realise that Elrond and Elros were raised by Maglor, son of Fëanor, after the Fëanorians attacked Sirion and the peredhil's mother, Elwing, through herself into the sea...? ;)

So... they lost their parents (Eärendil and Elwing) due to the struggles of the Noldor, and then their foster-father Maglor as well... :(

Is "dying" the right term to use? As much as any other mortal, perhaps, but do we consider a human in their prime of life to be "dying"?

Hehe, this could be it's own debate, I think... :evil:

*twitch*

*twitchtwitch*

*twitchtwitchtwitch*

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

You okay, Wayfarer? :p

[Wayfarer]

*hiss* *spit*

He said 'in the last book, when Arwen is dying'!!!!.

*slaver* *menace* *menace*

[Elemmírë]

*hiss* *spit*

He said 'in the last book, when Arwen is dying'!!!!.

*slaver* *menace* *menace*

Down, boy! :p

I thought that was what it was about... :D

ItalianLegolas... Arwen's not really dying. That's just a senseless Jackson addition... :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Is "dying" the right term to use? As much as any other mortal, perhaps, but do we consider a human in their prime of life to be "dying"?
By elves, I think so. Compared to elves, humans don't live long at all, most never reach one elven year (144 years to us) so it is possible that when a human reaches an age that for them is still a long tme until their death, the elves can perhaps see them starting to fade.

Not true for Arwen in the books tho! ;)

[Wayfarer]

Err... There's no such thing as an 'elven year', TD. Elves use the same years as humans do (rather, Humans borrowed the measurements of the elves), which are based on the transit of the sun and moon across the sky. The idea of an 'elven year being 144 human years' comes from somebody mistakenly translating the elvish word for 'a period of 144 years' as 'one year'. It's not really.

I imagine that it would be possible to see a human fading as they neared death - but remember that in Middle Earth, especially among the Numenoreans, the ideal was that a person would stay healthy and energetic until their time was up and they could lay down their life. Certainly I don't think that's a state that could realistically be considered 'dying'.

[Nurvingiel]

But the concept of yen is in the appendicies. I always thought it meant 144 years felt to an Elf as 1 year does to us. That doesn't necessarily mean we measure time differently, but I imagine mortals and immortals would have a different concept of time.

[Pytt]

I guess so. an immortal would not have the same concept of time as mortals. maybe from day to day, but when speaking of centurys, decades and more, the immortal would not think time has passed, in the way a mortal would.

[Wayfarer]

Right, Pytt. Perhaps I should clarify exactly what I was nitpicking: Elves would conceive the idea of time differently from humans - immortality or even long life nescessitates a somewhat different outlook than mortality does. But they would not percieve its passage any differently.

This distinction is certainly splitting hairs (even for me ;)), but it's nescessary to counter the all-too-frequent assumption that elves somehow experience existance more slowly than humans. That is false - elves experience time the same way that humans do (which is a large part of the reason they constantly attempted to halt it in places like Rivendell and Lorien), they simply have a longer adult lifespan and so experience more of it. A 144 year old elf would expereince the same duration that a human would if they lived the same time - there's nothing qualitatively different between the way humans and elves (and Maiar, and Valar, and Rodents) experience the passag of time.

[Elemmírë]

Wow. Off topic, but still incredibly interesting and open to debate.

Elvish perception of time.

If you're interested in this topic, I've started a new thread here (http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=407181#post407181).

[Sween]

Not a small part of his reason for choseing to be a man was ambition! I mean look at what happened to him and Elrond! Elros went on to be the forefather of the greatest nation of men ever to have lived. He was the longest lived man of all time! He was a king. Elrond became a master of wisdom and lore but never in the full since a ruler.

Also a lot of what we know is Elrond centred learning as he acctually plays a part in the storys in which we read. But imgin you are in middle earth particually living in the rhelm of Gondor! would you have any idea who Elrond is? he probably would not of come into the teachings of the people of Gondor whilst Elros would of been this fantastic figure who gave up imortality to come and rule men. It can be argueed to the death but Elros legacy in middle earth is probably know to more than Elrond (of course the strands were re-united with Aragorn and Arwen)

[Manveru]

maybe elros was just curious about what happened to men when they die. i mean the elves know that they go to the halls of mandos but the men leave the earth and what happens to them is a mystery

[Wayfarer]

Here's a question:

Why wouldn't Elros have chosen mortality? He certainly got the better deal from where I stand.

By choosing to become a mortal, Elros got the best of both worlds.

A 900 Year Lifespan, giving him plenty of time to enjoy the world.
The Gift of Death, letting him leave when he got tired of Ea.
The ability to end his life voluntarily - something Elves had but Humans didn't.
The stature and bearing of the Elves.
The freedom and self-determination of Men.
The prosperity and bliss of living in a place made for him by the Valar (Numenore)
The ability to change and affect Middle Earth, rather than hiding away in Valinor.

Dude. What's not to like here? I'd certainly take Elros's fate over Elrond's any day of the week.

[Valandil]

I'll have to check, but I think he only lived 400 or 500 years.

OTOH... his BROTHER had to wait about 3500 years to get married!! :eek:

:p :D

[Durin1]

I think it was 500 years.

I think Elros chose to me Mortal because he recognised the heroic heritage of his mortal ancestors on his father's side and felt there should continue to be a direct "pure" representation of the House of Hador that his father had sacrificed his life in ME to save; and he also does this in honour of his father.

[ItalianLegolas]

Here's a question:
Dude. What's not to like here? I'd certainly take Elros's fate over Elrond's any day of the week.

well, its true that elros didnt live to see the almost complete take over by Sauron, but he also didn't get to see the day when almost all evil was gone from the world. so i guess it could go either way

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well after Morgoth's fall what active evil was around when Elros was?

[Elemmírë]

TD's got a point.

My guess is it was just a matter of personal preference. Each race has its strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages. Their fates are different, but does this mean that one is actually better than the other?

Of course, one could ask why he chose to become mortal knowing that his brother, mother, and father had all chosen to be joined with the Eldar...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Earendiel did not chose to be elven because he wanted to. He did it for Elwing's sake, not his own.

[Pytt]

maybe he just was a rebel? when his mother, father and brother chose elves, maybe he wanted to be different, beacuse i would guess he had seen somewhat of what it would be to live like an elf.
I don't think one of the races are better than the other. as Elemmire says, both of them has it's own weaknesses and strengths.

[Elemmírë]

Earendiel did not chose to be elven because he wanted to. He did it for Elwing's sake, not his own.

Yes. Eärendil chose to be Elvish because of Elwing, but he still chose to be numbered among the Eldar. This is what I'm saying... Elros did not make a similar choice, he did not become Elvish for the sake of the rest of his family, but chose to sunder his fate from theirs.

Why? And less importantly... why are you invisible? Take off your elvish cloak and stay a while, TD... ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet his fate was sundered from his mother's and fathers anyway. I think something that may also have influenced his descion, was seeing how many men fought for Morgoth in the War of the Wrath. Only the Edain fought for the Valar. Maybe he wanted to unite more men under the banner of the Valar.

[ItalianLegolas]

if you're talking about uniting under the Valar for the War of the Rinf, i don't think that makes sense, because by then most(if not all me, had forgotten about the Valar) the only beings on Middle-Earth who remeberd were the Istari and the Elves

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet they would still have fought for the Valar if needs be. It could be argued that Sauron fought for Morgoth during the third age.

[ItalianLegolas]

Yes it could be argued, but the fact still remains that men didn't know who the Valar were! would you fight for someone you didn't even know? except to save your own butt?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm sure Men knew who they were like we know who George Bush or Tony Bair is. Yet they would be fighting for good instead of bad which was the point I was tring to get across.

[ItalianLegolas]

i get it now

[Lenya]

I can't understand how someone would choose a shorter live over a longer one. I am not one for living for ever, but I would have chosen to be an Elf if only to live longer. I mean, if you get the chance, take it. Then again, I woud have chosen Elf also cause I like them a lot :rolleyes:

[ItalianLegolas]

well, i gues it gets stressful living forever, i mean, men who you knew would die, and you would just keep on living

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Excuse me for being a little simple minded but, I think that Tolkien choose for Elros to become human simply to create a line of men more divine than the men of... lets say the Riddermark. Tolkien wanted Elros and Elrond to be a part of every story basiclly. Furthermore... Númenor needed a great king... so Tolkien gave them Tar-Minyatur... Elros!

[Pytt]

Yes, that makes sense, but that is Tolkiens motive for making Elros choose a mortal life.
but why did Elros so, if we see it from his stance?

[ItalianLegolas]

maybe it was a sibling rivalry thing :confused:

[Lenya]

Excuse me for being a little simple minded but, I think that Tolkien choose for Elros to become human simply to create a line of men more divine than the men of... lets say the Riddermark. Tolkien wanted Elros and Elrond to be a part of every story basiclly. Furthermore... Númenor needed a great king... so Tolkien gave them Tar-Minyatur... Elros!

Yes ofcourse. But that's why Tolkien chose it. Why did Elros choose it in Silm? I like the sibling rival thing.

[Pytt]

just like I said two posts abow, Lenya. it seems we have a way of saying what the other have already said :) :rolleyes:

[ItalianLegolas]

what if there was no reason for it? and it was just a random thing?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Does it ever say if Elros was closer to humans than elves in his life? Perhaps it was his fondness for humans that influenced his choice? Or maybe it was an influence of foresight? Whether Elrond had it or both, perhaps it was forseen that Elros would become mortal and therefore he did? I have no idea... it's strange that I would not know when my favorite part of Tolkien lore is Númenor! I guess I should look into this...

[Lefty Scaevola]

I think the mortals have better sex. Look at the elves. They are some uniterested in sex that they only have a few children during an inmortal adulthood, they never commit adultery (yep, that is official from JRRT), they never remarry (with one exception), they sometimes spend hundreds of years away from the onlyest spouse.

[ItalianLegolas]

that is just a creepy theory...

[Minielin]

they never remarry (with one exception) and look how that turned out... all kinds o' resentment... ;)

[BeardofPants]

I think the mortals have better sex. Look at the elves. They are some uniterested in sex that they only have a few children during an inmortal adulthood, they never commit adultery (yep, that is official from JRRT), they never remarry (with one exception), they sometimes spend hundreds of years away from the onlyest spouse.

Or... it could be that the sex is just so damned amazing, they don't have to have it very often. Aftershocks, anyone? ;)

[Minielin]

Or... it could be that the sex is just so damned amazing, they don't have to have it very often. Aftershocks, anyone? ;) If it was that amazing, wouldn't they just want to do it more often?

[ItalianLegolas]

scaryyyyyy...

[Beregond]

I just happen to have read about this in the appendixes yesterday and yes he did choose a mortal life.

[ItalianLegolas]

i know, thats why i am asking the question WHY?

[Lenya]

what if there was no reason for it? and it was just a random thing?

Now way. YOu don't just make a random decision that will change the rest of your life.

As for the whole sex thing, that's a whole new approach :p I just don't think Elves are really into physical things.