The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 5

[brownjenkins]

The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

We open with the Fellowship facing Balin's tomb, a grim monument to the ill-fated attempt to retake Khazad-dûm for the dwarven people. As someone close to Bilbo, and a dwarf Frodo met himself, the hobbit is reminded once again of the true dangers facing himself and his companions. After some inspection, Gandalf comes across a record kept by the dwarven expedition which, though greatly damaged, details the five-year history of Balin's reign beneath the Misty Mountains. They learn that they are now standing in the Chamber of Mazarbul, which helps Gandalf to get their bearings, and also that mithril was rediscovered in the mines. Knowing the dangers involved, one wonders if the quest for mithril was the driving force behind Balin's obsession to retake Moria. May this have blinded him to what was in all likelyhood a lost cause from the start?

The text later details the death of Balin by an orc arrow and the subsequent fight to the last by the remaining dwarves beseiged within the mines of Moria. After reading Gandalf makes the comment that "the time is not come yet" for the retaking of Moria. Maybe a bit of foretelling on his part that one day a time will come?

With their direction set, the Fellowship prepares to depart when the drums begin, a rolling boom from the depths, also mentioned in the dwarven text as a signal of the coming of the orcs. They decide to face off the initial onslaught then seal the door through which they entered, leaving an exit route via a smaller door in the back of the chamber. Gandalf stuns the oncoming orcs with a blast of light for a moment, noticing a few black Uruks of Mordor in the process, but they are unable to jam the doorway and have to face off with a group of orcs who make it to the chamber. Frodo wounds the troll at the door, and the Fellowship make fairly quick work of the first few that enter, the rest quickly retreating in fear for the moment. But before exiting through the back door, an orc chieftain enters and seems to skewer Frodo with his spear. This attention to the ringbearer as well as the presence of Mordor orcs makes one wonder if Sauron may very well have some communication with the denziens of Moria.

Killing the chieftain, they make their exit with Frodo carried by Aragorn, who soon finds that the hobbit has miraculously survived the spear thrust. With no time for explanations, Gandalf tells them that he will hold the door, sealing it with some magical incantations. To his surprise he is faced by the powerful counter-spell of a being that he had "not met before". Fortunately, though draining to the wizard, the contest of magics brings the chamber down on their pursuers. Following the tunnel down, they eventually come to a large chamber before a narrow bridge that leads out of the mines. They turn back and notice that the path they had intended to follow is blocked by a flaming fissure and would have been a trap had they gone the other route.

Turning for the bridge again they hear the sound of drums and orcs approaching once more. There are trolls carrying stones to bridge the flaming fissure, but the presence which puts a touch of fear even to Gandalf's mind is a shadowy man-like form, wreathed in flame and wielding a flaming sword and whip. It's a fallen ainu out of arda's earliest days... a Balrog! Gandalf immediately assesses the futility of the entire Fellowship taking it head on and tells the rest to flee for the gate while he faces the Balrog on the bridge.

As the creature approaches, Gandalf issues his challenge: "'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still and a silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow. You cannot pass!'" Most likely a reference to Gandalf's serving Eru and the Flame Imperishable, and calling upon the Balrog's ancient service to Melkor, Lord of Utumno (aka Udûn). I had not noticed before, but in this passage Tolkien capitalizes "Shadow", maybe a reference to Melkor, who he would prefer to not name directly.

The Balrog steps on the bridge before Gandalf and swings his flaming sword, but it is met and shattered by Glamdring. At this point Aragon and Boromir decide to assist, but before they can move Gandalf strikes the narrow bridge and shatters it beneath the feet of the Balrog. The creature plunges into the fissure below, but manages to tangle it's whip about the wizard's feet, dragging Gandalf along to the dismay of the Fellowship. Aragorn, realizing their leader is lost, leads them all to the gates and Dimrill Dale beyond, where the sun is shining to thwart any immediate pursuit by the orcs.

I remember reading this for the first time and paging through the rest of the book in hopes of Gandalf's return. Since "the Fellowship" was all I had at the time, I was keenly saddened by the loss of Gandalf, certainly a favorite, if not "the favorite" character of mine in the series. Luckily, there is another book. ;)

I also wonder if Gandalf's breaking of the bridge, as opposed to pursuing a more direct confrontation with the Balrog who he seemed to be doing well against, was spurred on by the decision of Aragon and Boromir to join in the fight. Either way, certainly one of the most exciting, and tragic, chapters in the series.

Lothlórien on the way... soon. :D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

brilliant intro, brownie,
will discuss later, i only have a short lunch break!! :D :D

[Artanis]

Brownie - He returns late, but when he returns, he does it with bravour! :p

Like Chrys I'll be back later with my thoughts. For now I only want to say that this chapter is for me so full of tension and foreboding of catastrophy. First the gloomy story from the book of Mazarbul, then history repeats itself and the Fellowship find themselves trapped as did the former inhabitants of Moria. Gimli and Legolas are even repeating the same words as were written in the book: "We cannot get out." and "They are coming!" And the violent drums - DOOM, DOOM! One gets the feeling that this will be the end of the Fellowship as it was for Ori & co.

[Artanis]

Knowing the dangers involved, one wonders if the quest for mithril was the driving force behind Balin's obsession to retake Moria. May this have blinded him to what was in all likelyhood a lost cause from the start?That may have been part of the reason, but if we are to believe Glóin on what he said in the council of Elrond, Balin was also hoping to find the last of the 7 Rings in Moria.
I also wonder if Gandalf's breaking of the bridge, as opposed to pursuing a more direct confrontation with the Balrog who he seemed to be doing well against, was spurred on by the decision of Aragon and Boromir to join in the fight.Yes I think Gandalf was forced to do something drastic, as the others did not heed his command to fly, but remained in the hall, and Aragorn and Boromir even on the bridge. I think it is interesting to notice that it is only Aragorn and Boromir who leaps to Gandalf's defence. Not Legolas, and not Gimli. It is the Men that are revealed as the greatest fighters here, which was seen also at the fight in the Chamber of Mazarbul.

[Count Comfect]

Well, a question would be whether the men are the greatest fighters or just the most foolhardy. Charging into danger seems to be Boromir's (in particular) forte, as will be seen later as well.

[Artanis]

Yes, I agree that it was foolish of Aragorn and Boromir to think that they could have done anything to help on the bridge. It would have been better perhaps, if they had led the rest of the company into safety outside. But maybe Aragorn and Boromir didn't understand in full the true nature of the Balrog. Legolas seemed to know enough to fear it, and Gimli too.

[The Gaffer]

Nice work, BJ.

Maybe a bit of foretelling on his part that one day a time will come?
I particularly like it how in the Appendices, in the section on the War of Dwarves and Orcs, Dain refuses to enter Moria, saying "some other power must come" before Durin's Bane is defeated.

Is this an action packed chapter or what?

To pick just one bit out, what do folks think about the confrontation with (what I've always presumed must be) the balrog in the Chamber, where Gandalf had put a shutting-spell on the door? Two things intrigue me:

- Gandalf's reference to speaking a "word of Command" as a last resort to prevent the door from opening. Is this related to how the Ainur "shape the world" with words, music, etc?
- "I have nearly been destroyed". That was a pretty dramatic little confrontation then. How could Gandalf be nearly destroyed by such a duel of "magic"?

I've always wondered what the Balrog thought when it perceived Gandalf's presence.

[brownjenkins]

To pick just one bit out, what do folks think about the confrontation with (what I've always presumed must be) the balrog in the Chamber, where Gandalf had put a shutting-spell on the door? Two things intrigue me:

- Gandalf's reference to speaking a "word of Command" as a last resort to prevent the door from opening. Is this related to how the Ainur "shape the world" with words, music, etc?
- "I have nearly been destroyed". That was a pretty dramatic little confrontation then. How could Gandalf be nearly destroyed by such a duel of "magic"?

I've always wondered what the Balrog thought when it perceived Gandalf's presence.

me too... if you noticed i highlighted the part about gandalf saying that it was a being he had "not met before"... it's very possible that, even upon seeing him on the bridge, the balrog was not aware of who, or what, gandalf actually was either... and this may have been part of the reason behind his somewhat grand proclamations... to give pause and gain time for the others, he informed the balrog of exactly what kind of being he was facing

[Artanis]

To pick just one bit out, what do folks think about the confrontation with (what I've always presumed must be) the balrog in the Chamber, where Gandalf had put a shutting-spell on the door?I think this is quite intriguing - what is this that make a door either stay shut or open up? Think about the great gate into Moria as well, where speaking a password was the way to open it. Gandalf says: From the inside you may thrust them open with your hands. From the outside nothing will move them save the spell of command. They cannot be forced inwards.Throughout the book the notion of 'being in a spell' is often used to describe a state of mind in which one is caught into a vision (Rivendell, Tom Bombadil), which could be misinterpreted for the reality. But in our world a door is a dead thing. I wonder if it is different in Middle-Earth, where all things seem to have some kind of life, aka when Legolas claims that the stones in Eregion is speaking to him.
- Gandalf's reference to speaking a "word of Command" as a last resort to prevent the door from opening. Is this related to how the Ainur "shape the world" with words, music, etc?I think it is interesting to notice that Gandalf is making a distinction between a mere spell and a word of command. The 'word of command' seem to be the last resort, something that should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. It is a power that Gandalf has, but power and the use of it is corrupting, something Gandalf is aware of.

[Olmer]

But before exiting through the back door, an orc chieftain enters and seems to skewer Frodo with his spear. This attention to the ringbearer as well as the presence of Mordor orcs makes one wonder if Sauron may very well have some communication with the denziens of Moria.
An interesting passage about the orc who pinned Frodo with the spear. Seemed he had an information which other orcs did not have : an order to destroy the certain halfling.
Expertly dodging the blows of Boromir and Aragorn he went straight to Frodo. Who is he? He differs from his Moria’s orcs followers as a wolf from toy dogs , who cowardly “clustered in the doorway” and “fled howling" . This warrior’s skillfulness, bravery and readiness to meet the death in order to achieve a given directive ask for respect and ,also, for an implication that he had a lot of practice on a combat field in contrary to disorganized and unskilled orcs of Moria.
According to Gandalf’s words there were some “black Uruks from Mordor”, but Sauron did not know which one out of four hobbits is a Baggins. Saruman, on the other hand, had more spies in Shire to find out a full description of the Ringbearer. I think that this officer of Isengard’s army was sent to Moria with a specific order, and very possible that the whole attack on the Fellowship was provoked and orchestrated under the guidance of few emissaries of Saruman the Wise.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet why would Saruman want Frodo dead if he could catch him with the Ring?


I know the Lothlorien chapter intro hasn't been done yet, but reading it today I realised something. Legolas says that there is a power that the evil can not break yet (or something along those lines). I wondered if this could be something along the lines of the Girdle of Melian. Galadriel gave the Fellowship lembas which was first seen when Melian gave Beleg some, so maybe Galadriel could have something along the lines of that to protect Lothlorien.

[Olmer]

Yet why would Saruman want Frodo dead if he could catch him with the Ring?
He did not caught him. Did not he? Not before, not ever.
Pobably, by crippling Frodo his intentions was to slow the Fellowship down till more help arrives.

[The Gaffer]

I wonder if it is different in Middle-Earth, where all things seem to have some kind of life, aka when Legolas claims that the stones in Eregion is speaking to him.
Possibly, I hadn't thought of it that way. I'd always seen it the other way around: that some of the denizens of ME are attuned to perceive the fabric of the world in more profound ways.

Also, I know I keep harping on about it, but the power of words was clearly greater in those days (depending on the speaker).
I think it is interesting to notice that Gandalf is making a distinction between a mere spell and a word of command. The 'word of command' seem to be the last resort, something that should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. It is a power that Gandalf has, but power and the use of it is corrupting, something Gandalf is aware of.
Again, I hadn't thought of that distinction. Though, why do you say it's corrupting? I don't see any evidence of that in the text.

The effort nearly broke him; perhaps it's to do with putting his Maia essence on the line to make the physical world do what he wanted.

As for the orc, 'tis probably dramatic licence, methinks. Though, having found that the halfling resisted the power of the Ring and the Morgul-knife, I can see a logic in just taking Frodo out so that the Ring could work its temptations on someone else.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He did not caught him. Did not he? Not before, not ever.
Pobably, by crippling Frodo his intentions was to slow the Fellowship down till more help arrives.
No but he tried to on Amon Hen. He thought he'd be able to catch him, so why kill him?

[Nurvingiel]

Knowing the dangers involved, one wonders if the quest for mithril was the driving force behind Balin's obsession to retake Moria. May this have blinded him to what was in all likelyhood a lost cause from the start?
I think this is possible. Dwarves can get a bit... nuts... around treasure. Just look at Thorin leading up to the Battle of Five Armies in "The Hobbit"! However, I thought Balin was wiser than that, and he was also in a less awkward position. I mean, he had loads of time to rationally think out a plan to retake Moria.

Maybe a bit of foretelling on his part that one day a time will come?
That's going on the list of sequels I wish Tolkien had written to LOTR. ;) Maybe Gandalf was implying two things: that Moria could be retaken after Sauron's defeat (taking the wind out of the orcs sails), and that he would take out the Balrog (which wouldn't necessarily leave if Sauron was defeated). The second has implications of its own.

To his surprise he is faced by the powerful counter-spell of a being that he had "not met before".
I always take this line to mean the Balrog. If Gandalf had not met a Balrog before, then that would explain it. If he had, maybe this is Gothmog? Would the Lord of the Balrogs seem magically different?

I had not noticed before, but in this passage Tolkien capitalizes "Shadow", maybe a reference to Melkor, who he would prefer to not name directly.
What if "Shadow" referred to the Void? Since Melkor is banished there I guess it means the same thing anyway.

Well, a question would be whether the men are the greatest fighters or just the most foolhardy. Charging into danger seems to be Boromir's (in particular) forte, as will be seen later as well.
I think it's rather loyalty and love that keeps them there, rather than foolhardiness. They are warriors, they are willing to lay down their lives to lend even a small assistance to their friend. Now, Aragorn and Gandalf were quite close. I think Boromir's willingness to sacrifice himself for the Quest spoke to what a true-hearted and noble person he was. He truly wanted the Quest to succeed. We can't get too hung up on his little slip-up later. ;)

I also wonder if Gandalf's breaking of the bridge, as opposed to pursuing a more direct confrontation with the Balrog who he seemed to be doing well against, was spurred on by the decision of Aragon and Boromir to join in the fight. Either way, certainly one of the most exciting, and tragic, chapters in the series.
I agree. It really is brilliant!!


I know we're not supposed to go too much into events after the chapter, but consider this chain of events.

Pippin throws stone into well - hears odd tapping - gets in trouble by Gandalf for disturbing things that ought not to be disturbed - orc army finds them in the chamber of Mazarbul, pusuit ensues - Gandalf battles Balrog, and falls.

Now, we all know now that Gandalf does come back as Gandalf the White. So my question is, do you think Pippin was "meant" to be the catalyst of Gandalf's transformation?
Gandalf included him in the Fellowship, hinting that everyone has a role to play, and it's not always obvious what. He gets into that later with Frodo about Gollum as well. He also seemed resigned to going through Moria even before the storms hit them on Caradhras, as if he knew what would happen. Did he also know Pippin's role? It's also possible they never would have pulled off sneaking through Moria with all those orcs anyway, and Pippin was in fact, not the catalyst.

What do you think?

[Artanis]

Pippin throws stone into well - hears odd tapping - gets in trouble by Gandalf for disturbing things that ought not to be disturbed - orc army finds them in the chamber of Mazarbul, pusuit ensues - Gandalf battles Balrog, and falls.

Now, we all know now that Gandalf does come back as Gandalf the White. So my question is, do you think Pippin was "meant" to be the catalyst of Gandalf's transformation?
Gandalf included him in the Fellowship, hinting that everyone has a role to play, and it's not always obvious what. He gets into that later with Frodo about Gollum as well. He also seemed resigned to going through Moria even before the storms hit them on Caradhras, as if he knew what would happen. Did he also know Pippin's role? It's also possible they never would have pulled off sneaking through Moria with all those orcs anyway, and Pippin was in fact, not the catalyst.I think you are right in that Pippin was a catalyst, but if he hadn't played that role, someone or something else would. Pip does have a role to play of course, just consider Parth Galen, where he and Merry provide an opportunity for Boromir to redeem himself, and the palantir, and the pyre of Denethor, and at last the troll, and perhaps more that does not pop up in my mind right now. But I don't think everything is cut into stone here. Gandalf knew that this was to be his last quest, this was the very reason why he was sent to Middle-Earth. I think he suspected that some sort of trial or test was awaiting him in Moria, but did not know the nature of it. Consider his words when the Balrog appears:'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. `What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'But did he truly understand at that moment? I don't think so, I don't think he could foretell his return. We may, in retrospect, understand better. Saruman was the most powerful of the Istari and was supposed to be the greatest of Sauron's opponents, but he had fallen. There was a dire need for someone to take his place. In other words, Gandalf needed to be enhanced, to gain more power, but that could only happen through a great sacrifice and suffering on his part.

Edit: Gaffer, I will answer your question, but right now I'm short of time. :)

[brownjenkins]

That's going on the list of sequels I wish Tolkien had written to LOTR. ;) Maybe Gandalf was implying two things: that Moria could be retaken after Sauron's defeat (taking the wind out of the orcs sails), and that he would take out the Balrog (which wouldn't necessarily leave if Sauron was defeated). The second has implications of its own.

i don't have the appendixes on hand, but i thought there was some notation within about the retaking of at least part of moria in the fourth age... will have to check

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

They did in the fourth age. It was the last dwarf to be called Durin who led them.

[Bombadillo]

This is my very favorite chapter. BJ, I was envious when you got this one before I knew it, but you wrote it better than I think I could.

This chapter contains two of my favorite parts. One, after Frodo is pinned by the orc cheiftan, and Aragorn picks him up, then nearly collapses in surprise when Frodo speaks to him. Second, on a much more solemn and abstract note, the conflict between Gandalf and the Balrog as utter opposites.

With no time for explanations, Gandalf tells them that he will hold the door, sealing it with some magical incantations. To his surprise he is faced by the powerful counter-spell of a being that he had "not met before". Fortunately, though draining to the wizard, the contest of magics brings the chamber down on their pursuers. Following the tunnel down, they eventually come to a large chamber before a narrow bridge that leads out of the mines. They turn back and notice that the path they had intended to follow is blocked by a flaming fissure and would have been a trap had they gone the other route.

Turning for the bridge again they hear the sound of drums and orcs approaching once more. There are trolls carrying stones to bridge the flaming fissure, but the presence which puts a touch of fear even to Gandalf's mind is a shadowy man-like form, wreathed in flame and wielding a flaming sword and whip. It's a fallen ainu out of arda's earliest days... a Balrog! Gandalf immediately assesses the futility of the entire Fellowship taking it head on and tells the rest to flee for the gate while he faces the Balrog on the bridge.

As the creature approaches, Gandalf issues his challenge: "'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still and a silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow. You cannot pass!'" Most likely a reference to Gandalf's serving Eru and the Flame Imperishable, and calling upon the Balrog's ancient service to Melkor, Lord of Utumno (aka Udûn). I had not noticed before, but in this passage Tolkien capitalizes "Shadow", maybe a reference to Melkor, who he would prefer to not name directly.

The Balrog steps on the bridge before Gandalf and swings his flaming sword, but it is met and shattered by Glamdring. At this point Aragon and Boromir decide to assist, but before they can move Gandalf strikes the narrow bridge and shatters it beneath the feet of the Balrog. The creature plunges into the fissure below, but manages to tangle it's whip about the wizard's feet, dragging Gandalf along to the dismay of the Fellowship. Aragorn, realizing their leader is lost, leads them all to the gates and Dimrill Dale beyond, where the sun is shining to thwart any immediate pursuit by the orcs. ...

...I also wonder if Gandalf's breaking of the bridge, as opposed to pursuing a more direct confrontation with the Balrog who he seemed to be doing well against, was spurred on by the decision of Aragon and Boromir to join in the fight. Either way, certainly one of the most exciting, and tragic, chapters in the series.I was a bit surprized when you suggested that Gandalf "seemed to be doing well against" the Balrog, probably because I have spent so much time marveling at their equality and reading into it, oblivious to any other point of view. :o

Way back in Balin's death chamber, Gandalf kind of knows about the Balrog: He wonders why there is a shadow that his staff-light cannot peirce behind the orcs outside, and later clarifies that "[he] felt its presence through the door". Then it commands silence from the attacking orcs, ang Gandalf reacts fittingly, hollering "Do as I say! Swords are of no more use here. Go!" Right away, he commands the same silence and obedience from his followers. Equal.
Then the concentrate their spells on the door, and actually blow up the damn room between their forces. Gandalf goes flying, Balrog is crushed, and both are extremely drained. Equal.
Finally they both display their full Power in the most recognized and glorious manner on the bridge. They stand gazing at each other, for at least a moment motionless, and Gandalf defies the Balrog's advancement, "[drawing] himself up to his full height" and slamming down his staff, raising up his sword, despite his weariness, mirroring the Balrog's same action, spreading its shadow/wings from wall to wall. They fall together. Equal.

SPOILER: And the outcome is Gandalf's success, but only many, many, depressed chapters later, and only because good triumphs over evil as a general rule. The other wizards recognized the intensity of this fight immediately and upgraded him from grey to a modestly impressive white.

I feel like I seem to be rambling or arrogant. I'm trying not to sound like this is definately the only right opinion on the peice, but it's so artistic and I love it so much. I'm excited, but I'm also excited about hearing other people's points of view.?

To answer your questions directly, I think Tolkien capitalizes Shadow for the same reason I capitalize Power in this peice: to demonstrate that he means it in every fathomable definition of the word. The Balrog was described as a Presence of "Shadow" and "darkness," and Tolkien uses these frequently as synonyms for "evil." To tell the truth I never thought that he might be referring to Melkor; that's probably right, now that I look at the context of the word's use. (Gandalf: "The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow!")
On the men running out to help him, how it was them of all in the fellowship and how it affected Gandalf's action. I kind of expected that from Aragorn (he even tried to help Gandalf in Balin's chamber after being told to run away), and it's not surprising that Borimir follows. I don't think that influenced Gandalf's decision to break the bridge; I just can't see him wanting to combat it, for a bunch of reasons there. But it certainly was lucky for those guys.


- Gandalf's reference to speaking a "word of Command" as a last resort to prevent the door from opening. Is this related to how the Ainur "shape the world" with words, music, etc?
- "I have nearly been destroyed". That was a pretty dramatic little confrontation then. How could Gandalf be nearly destroyed by such a duel of "magic"?

I've always wondered what the Balrog thought when it perceived Gandalf's presence.-I would love to think yes. It glorifies even more how powerful and mystic were the ways of Gandlaf. But I usually suspect something different: I see Gandalf in this chapter as the personification of "pacifist." Therefore, it seems right that he was sort of coaxing the door into staying initially, and maybe after sensing the Balrog, in almost a state of panic but still maintaining obvious authority, said " :eek: For the love of Eru, hold fast!!" or something along those lines. That's a command that Gandalf would prefer not having to squeal. I'm being serious.
-He was nearly destroyed. Because he and the Balrog are compementary but equals. Even from that first meeting, I think the Balrog, as a manifestation of Gandalf's very opposite, could have easily canceled him out completely. (Good thing their powers were concentrated on the door and not each other or I think they'd both have been dead.) Gandalf had knowledge of this thing, but as he said no prior experience with it, and plus his very job in Arda is to counteract it. Any confrontation or contest would have been all-out total war. I want to emphasize how that was Gandalf's sole mission, brought about right there on the bridge. Can a chapter be any deeper? *drops jaw*

That's my humble opinion. I'm not so opinionated on any other chapter.

Lookin' forward to Lothlorien! :)

[Olmer]

Great observation, Bombadillo! And I totally agree with you that on the bridge met two equal powers. You can see it from Gandalf's words to Balrog that he conveyed his message as to entity equal in the Power .(I’m deriving a few sentences from our previous discussion http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showpost.php?p=372627&postcount=16 )
This is how I see the situation.
Say, you met someone who threatens you. He doesn't know you, but you know, that he is working in the same company. To buff him off you have to say some names from the top management which is familiar to both of you.
In Gandalf's case he had to translate a message to Balrog that affirm his authority and power, for authority can be a great weapon to wield and give commands based on it.
"...I am a servant of the Secret Fire"... - Istari formally swore to serve the greatest power of Creator, in other words -" ... I am a Mayar, no less powerful than you are".

Also, I would say, this is battle not only betweent two Powers, but, also between two opposite elements: fire and ice. In the description of the fight between Gandalf and the Balrog Gandalf represents the 'cold' element opposing to the “fiery” Balrog. “Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. ... Glamdring glittered white in answer.” while ”From out of the shadow, a red sword leaped flaming”
It is interesting to make a note of the “cold “ nature of the old elven arms like Sting and Glamdring, shining cold blue-white light, or Ringil and Aeglos which even having “ice” in theirs names, opposed to the arms of Melkor’s servants made with help of the “dark fire”.
You see the battle of this two elements as they clash with each other “There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire “ overcoming the weaker one and breaking it “The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments “

In the view of this I had to rethink my previous post about Barlog coming out because of the Ring.
Barlog, a Walaraukar, a Maia of Fire, the one of the highest in Morgoths hierarchy, had been the servant of the “flame of Udun” , just the same as Gandalf had been the servant of the “flame of Arnor”.
The Ring was made long after by Sauron, Morgoth’s subordinate with no real importance to Balrog, and so, certainly, even if he felt the pull of the Ring (since the Ring had a tendency to attract the more powerful), it would have no power over the evil one of the higher order than its maker.
I think that Barlog sensed in Moria the presence, the invasion of power as equally great as his, the presence of Gandalf . To Balrog, this element of the Creator’s cosmic power in Gandalf must shine like a beacon in darkness, and he came out after to deal with it.

[Valandil]

Mr. Jenkins... didn't you have another portion to post about?? :)

[Artanis]

Again, I hadn't thought of that distinction. Though, why do you say it's corrupting? I don't see any evidence of that in the text.Better late than never .... :rolleyes: I'll try to explain my thoughts about power. I think that power and the use of it is dangerous and is easily corrupted. Gandalf knew his peril:
‘But I have so little of any of these things! You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?’
‘No!’ cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. ‘With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.’ His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. ‘Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great, for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.’
It would be tempting for a powerful person to try to gain domination over other people, (or over nature and the earth, as in our case with Gandalf and the door?) to make his own will effective by force, even if the original intent may be good. Melkor was the most powerful of all the Ainur, and he fell. Saruman was the leader among the Istari, and he became corrupted. Galadriel desired power, to rule lands of her own, and only the wisdom gained during 3 ages in Middle-Earth saved her in the end.

For Gandalf, I think the open display of power and glory belonging to a Maia would be wrong in Middle-Earth, since this would lead the people around him to worship him and look to him for aid instead of trusting their own strength. Perhaps his fall inty the abyss with the Balrog was necessary for that reason too. It forced Aragorn to take the leadership and ultimately led Frodo to the decision he made at Parth Galen.

[The Gaffer]

Interesting take.

From the Sil, it's clear that Ainur have some sort of creative power which can directly bring changes about in the world. We have Tom's songs and the Rules of Riddling, all of which had a power of sorts.

I wonder if Gandalf's use of the "Word of Command" is part of his Ainuness.

If so, maybe it's like their other acts of creativity: having done it once, they can't do it again (lamps, trees, etc); some portion of themselves is spent in the act. So maybe the Command pitted an aspect of G directly against an equal and opposing Maia will, hence he was "nearly destroyed" and maybe only saved because the Chamber caved in.

Just a thought.

[Artanis]

I wonder if Gandalf's use of the "Word of Command" is part of his Ainuness.I think you are correct there Gaffer, and I like your thoughts about creativity and the power of words. Though I would argue that in this case there were no creation as with the two trees and the lamps. The aim here is a certain behaviour of the door, again pointing in the direction that everything in the world is 'alive'. Then one may perhaps talk about the distinction between a 'command' as a method to force the door to stay shut, and a mere spell as a method of persuation.

[Fat middle]

I think you are correct there Gaffer, and I like your thoughts about creativity and the power of words. Though I would argue that in this case there were no creation as with the two trees and the lamps. The aim here is a certain behaviour of the door, again pointing in the direction that everything in the world is 'alive'. Then one may perhaps talk about the distinction between a 'command' as a method to force the door to stay shut, and a mere spell as a method of persuation.
I like that very much, and also Gaffer's thoughts. However I'd say that there's little difference with the creation of the trees. In fact that "creation" may be considered as "a certain behaviour" that Yavanna & Co. commanded to the nature elements from where the trees were "created".

In the end we have only one example of word with the power of create: Eä.

[Artanis]

I like that very much, and also Gaffer's thoughts. However I'd say that there's little difference with the creation of the trees. In fact that "creation" may be considered as "a certain behaviour" that Yavanna & Co. commanded to the nature elements from where the trees were "created".You may be right there Gordy, and I would like it even better if you said 'persuaded' instead of 'commanded'. :)
In the end we have only one example of word with the power of create: Eä.Very true, in all other cases we should use the word sub-creation.

[Fat middle]

You may be right there Gordy, and I would like it even better if you said 'persuaded' instead of 'commanded'. :)You're right, 'persuaded' fits much better :)

[The Gaffer]

Cool thoughts. Indeed that makes much more sense.

I'll try to come up with some other examples over the festive period. Meantime, have a fantastic festive frolic, one and all; see you in 2005.

[Artanis]

Suddenly, and to his own surprise, Frodo felt a hot wrath blaze up in his heart. `The Shire! ' he cried, and springing beside Boromir, he stooped, and stabbed with Sting at the hideous foot.I just have to put in some words of admiration of Frodo and Sam in here. They deserve so for the courage they displayed at the battle in the Chamber. I especially value this description of Sam after the fight:A fire was smouldering in his brown eyes that would have made Ted Sandyman step backwards, if he had seen it.
:)

[Earniel]

I'm late as usual. :rolleyes: But nice introduction BJ!

This attention to the ringbearer as well as the presence of Mordor orcs makes one wonder if Sauron may very well have some communication with the denziens of Moria.
I remember a few discussion about whether or not Sauron had contact with the Moria orcs, but this must be the best argument for it I've heard until now. I had forgotten nearly all about those Mordor orcs.

There are trolls carrying stones to bridge the flaming fissure, but the presence which puts a touch of fear even to Gandalf's mind is a shadowy man-like form, wreathed in flame and wielding a flaming sword and whip. It's a fallen ainu out of arda's earliest days... a Balrog!
It was kind of weird when I was rereading this chapter. Despite the many times I've read this book, I suddenly had a whole new mental image of the balrog. No horns for example.

I remember reading this for the first time and paging through the rest of the book in hopes of Gandalf's return. Since "the Fellowship" was all I had at the time, I was keenly saddened by the loss of Gandalf, certainly a favorite, if not "the favorite" character of mine in the series. Luckily, there is another book. ;)
Gandalf's 'death' was a very powerful scene. I remember talking about it with my sister (who had already read LoTR) in the car and she told me he would be back! :rolleyes:

Throughout the book the notion of 'being in a spell' is often used to describe a state of mind in which one is caught into a vision (Rivendell, Tom Bombadil), which could be misinterpreted for the reality. But in our world a door is a dead thing. I wonder if it is different in Middle-Earth, where all things seem to have some kind of life, aka when Legolas claims that the stones in Eregion is speaking to him.
I like that notion of a kind of life in objects in Middle-earth. It also gives a nod to the fairytale-origin of LoTR.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Yes, I agree that it was foolish of Aragorn and Boromir to think that they could have done anything to help on the bridge. Legolas seemed to know enough to fear it, and Gimli too.The Balgor is subject to pysical combat and injury, and the support of non paniced warriors would be an obvious help in fighting one. Given the power of terror wield by ht Balrogs, it is amazing that any incarnate but an exiled Noldo (with their supercharged spirit and power with reagrd to the unseen world) would advance against one.