What Was the Purpose of the 2 Blue Wizards

[ItalianLegolas]

In one of the books, Tolkien states that along with Gandalf(the Grey), Saruman(the White) and Radagast(the Brown)
came 2 un-named wizards, and all that we know about them is that they were robed in blue, so the obvious question is, what was the purpose of the 2 Blue wizards, because they are never mentioned in the core LoTR books, and is never mentioned by either Gandalf, Saruman or Radagast. So i would like to hear your ideas...

[Elemmírë]

An interesting question, I think.

This is, of course, mere conjecture, and I could easily be proven wrong by anyone with more knowledge of HoME.

Gandalf (and arguably Radagast, though to a lesser degree) was the only wizard to remain loyal to the cause that the Valar had given them. He was the only one to stand beside the people of Middle Earth against Sauron in the war at the end of the Third Age.

Making him the only one out of 3 wizards, to me, doesn't have as much of an impact as making him the only one out of 5. If 4 fell two inaction (and in Saruman's case, opposition), to me it speaks more for the difficulty of their task, even for Maiar, than if only 2 were disloyal (again, Radagast can be debated).

It's the only idea I can come up with, at present. :) Anyone else...

btw, I have no documentation, but I've seen in at least one forum the names "Pallando" and "Alatar" given to the blue wizards. Are these real names?

ps... welcome to the Moot, ItalianLegolas! Hope you enjoy it!

[Attalus]

The two Blue Wizards, Alatair and Pallandro, were said by JRRT in the Letters to have gone into the East, presumably to Harad or the environs, and further were said to have failed. I don't have the reference at hand, but a few moments work with the Index should turn them up.

[Wayfarer]

The purpose of the Blue Wizards was the same as the purpose of the other three.

[ItalianLegolas]

In Radagast's case, i think, it was more of a case of blind trust/stupidity(they may be the same), as opposed to inaction/un-loyalness to the cause.
in response to Wayfarer, if it is true that they went into the East, is it not also possible that they, like Saruman were turned from there good ways and into the Dark-Lords service? Is it also possible, that maybe they came to rule Harad? or did they return to the West with their task unfinished?

[Wayfarer]

Yes.

[BeardofPants]

Been a few threads on these guys. A quick search will turn up the threads, and the sources.

[BeardofPants]

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6793
http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6831&highlight=Wizards+colors
http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9316&highlight=blue+wizard

[Valandil]

Wayfarer is correct as far as the 'Purpose Statement' goes.

For the names, and a bit more information, there's a section of 'Unfinished Tales' that can be of interest. Appropriately enough, a chapter called 'The Istari'.

Tolkien actually speculates in a couple different directions about them - if he ever made up his mind for sure, I don't know which one he settled on. One - that they either became ineffective or were the source of 'false religions' in the eastern parts of Middle Earth, by which we might guess that the people there were more easily ensnared by Sauron. The other - that they WERE effective and faithful to their purpose - with a sort of 'who knows how bad things would have been without them' kind of statement.

In any case, I believe there's mention someplace that the two went into the east with Saruman, and that he eventually returned alone. Say :confused: ... you don't suppose that HE might have :eek: ...

[inked]

I think that those referenced wizards could have been the logical connection for a sequel to LOTR had there been time or inclination on JRRT's part. But the reference to their failure is I think meant to be understood in the 3 responses we see in LOTR. One could become so absorbed in the delights and preoccupations of ME that one lost sight of one's goal without becoming actively evil a la Radagast. One then becomes a dupe for the actively evil a la Saruman in which the submission to evil is complete. Finally, one could stay true to one's mission even with intermittent failures a la Gandalf.

I think the reason we are given the existence of the Istari and these known outcomes per the LOTR and related works is that we are meant to reflect on the modes by which any cause or faith is adhered to, won, or lost. The subcreation models the real world of our existence. For any cause we ourselves may be traitors a la Saruman, indifferent a la Radagast, or faithful servants even with errors and mistakes a la Gandalf. There are gradations in these responses of course. But there are no other responses available in fact in ME or our primary world.

Much food for thought in this matter.

Keep on thinking! :D

[ItalianLegolas]

couldn't it also just be that they were characters that Tolkien put in but never fully developed?

[inked]

Hey, IL, you aska da questions, you getta da answers! And ya gonna like it, see!?! ;)

Yeah, to your last.

[Attalus]

couldn't it also just be that they were characters that Tolkien put in but never fully developed?*shrugs* I don't think he developed them because he wasn't interested in them. I suspect that, thematically, they were used to highlight Gandalf's achievement: the only one of the Five Wizards that succeeded.

[Lefty Scaevola]

JRRT's earlier ideas [in UT and the letters] about the Blue wizard's mission was more pessimistic )presummed failure) than his later ideas. His later notes idicate that they had done more to prevent even larger hordes from the East over running the west. comparing all the material on them give a very sad insight into JRRT final years, with a note indicating that he could not locate nor much remember what he had previously written about them.

[Pytt]

*shrugs* I don't think he developed them because he wasn't interested in them. I suspect that, thematically, they were used to highlight Gandalf's achievement: the only one of the Five Wizards that succeeded.

does anyone know what radagast's quest/ task/ mission was? after Attalus says Gandalf was the only who succeeded...

[ItalianLegolas]

i don't think Tolkiend ever says what radagast's mission was, maybe it was the same as gandalf's but then radadast became obsessed with animals...

[Manveru]

weren't all of their missions basically the same?

[Manveru]

i found this website that has alot of info on the two wizards apparently they were maier of orome (since they would be travelling all the way to the east) but anyway ill let u read the rest:
http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/bluewizards.asp

[ItalianLegolas]

that's interesting Manveru, that was what I always thought, that they were just undeveloped, or forgotten characters

[Attalus]

I don't think they were forgotten, since JRRT was writing about him in the last weeks of his life.

[ItalianLegolas]

i meant LoTR wise

[inked]

They were not integral to the plot of LOTR as were Saruman and Radagast, so they weren't developed there. They certainly could provide a link (however tenuous) to related works by authors other than JRRT - if any had the temerity and ability to produce such for publication. I think none shall dare that, IMHO.

[Beor]

One of them went on to found Hogwarts academy or whatever and the other went on to promote himself through several lego sets labeled the "Dragon Masters" that were released in the mid 1990's.

[Elemmírë]

Interesting theory. ;)

Maybe one went to found Hogwarts and another to found one of the other wizardry schools...

I still go with my original theory (which I haven't posted :eek: ):

One became Buddha and the other Lao-tzu. ;)

[Manveru]

they formed a rock and roll group with the easterlings

[Beor]

Hence the Rolling Stones ability to still play

[ItalianLegolas]

hardy har har har, very funny

[me9996]

How about...

1. They are there to provide councle to wizzards.
2. They are in charge of the whether (No, remember what tom bombaldil sayed?)
3. They are useless! :confused: :rolleyes: ;) :evil: :o :D :rolleyes:

[Sween]

The Blue wizards are a complete mystery for one thing we only really know they went into the east and they were blue. Now i cannot be bothered digging though my volumes of support novels but i think it is in the unfinished tales when they are talking about the Isati there is a rather intresting part about the the council which they had to discuss the subject. There were origionally only going to send 3 but not nessarilly the 3 you would think. Bassically this is the conclusion of the council Gandalf went for Manwe and Varda (they begged him he was not willing as he feared Sauron) Saurman was of course of Aules people (all the baddies are) and Radagast went with Saurman because Yavanna begged it of Aule but the blue Wizzards only one was to go origionally (cannot rember which one but the other went with his as a friend) but they were sent by Orome. Now the fact they were sent by Orome intrests me he would of had great knoledge of the east of middle earth but more importantally he was the hunter and surely that means that these two were hunters of skill.

I thinks a faily safe bet to asume that the blue wizzards job was to hunt out the nasty creatures that had fled at the end of the 1st age a kinda mopping up job if you will now how much succes they had in this would be intresting to know but unfortnally Tolkien didnt get famos till to late we should of been egging him on to write these tales as a young man.

[BeardofPants]

Interesting... but I don't agree. They were sent as emissaries. It is doubtful that the boys in blue would have participated in anything as overtly interfering as that. If there was to have been a 'mop up operation' in the east, it might have been helped along by them, but their roles would have been of the emissary kind, IMO.

[Attalus]

I agree with BoP. The Istari were to inspire and coordinate, not to overtly interfere with their angelic powers.

[Manveru]

i was re-reading the section on the istari in unfinished tales and came across some cool info

Of the Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth... the chiefs were five.

which makes it seem like there were alot more than just five. some were probably sent to other areas of middle-earth where there were other evil powers. it also looks like more were sent to the north of middle-earth, but they were less important

[ItalianLegolas]

so there could have been hundreds, i doubt it, but it is possible

[Wayfarer]

makes it seem like there were alot more than just five. some were probably sent to other areas of middle-earth where there were other evil powers. it also looks like more were sent to the north of middle-earth, but they were less important

I've always suspected was that those five were the few who could actually approach Sauron's level of power and possibly be a match for him one on one - there might have been scores of lesser maia. However, I do also remember reading that Glorfindel came back across the seas with Gandalf (and aided his mission), so it's probably important to consider that 'members of the order' don't all nescessarily have to be ainu.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

An interesting question, I think.

This is, of course, mere conjecture, and I could easily be proven wrong by anyone with more knowledge of HoME.

Gandalf (and arguably Radagast, though to a lesser degree) was the only wizard to remain loyal to the cause that the Valar had given them. He was the only one to stand beside the people of Middle Earth against Sauron in the war at the end of the Third Age.

Making him the only one out of 3 wizards, to me, doesn't have as much of an impact as making him the only one out of 5. If 4 fell two inaction (and in Saruman's case, opposition), to me it speaks more for the difficulty of their task, even for Maiar, than if only 2 were disloyal (again, Radagast can be debated).

It's the only idea I can come up with, at present. :) Anyone else...

btw, I have no documentation, but I've seen in at least one forum the names "Pallando" and "Alatar" given to the blue wizards. Are these real names?

ps... welcome to the Moot, ItalianLegolas! Hope you enjoy it!

My understanding is that Tolkien's later thoughts were that they organized a resistance in the East against Sauron?

Pallando and Alatar were their "Valinorean names", as I understand it; I remember reading somewhere their Mannish equivalents, but where, I don't know. I'd like to see them again.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I've always suspected was that those five were the few who could actually approach Sauron's level of power and possibly be a match for him one on one - there might have been scores of lesser maia. However, I do also remember reading that Glorfindel came back across the seas with Gandalf (and aided his mission), so it's probably important to consider that 'members of the order' don't all nescessarily have to be ainu.

Interesting; I'd never seen that as meaning that Glorfindel was one of the Istari; definitely food for thought.

[Pytt]

echo of Gwaihir.
I didn't know there were sent more than the five. but as Wayfarer says, I don't think they could be of greater power. then they should have been mentioned..

[Radagast The Brown]

Maybe the unmentioned Istari were simply irrelevant to the story. They wouldn't be mentioned if they came to the south, and never got northern to Harad, in my opinion.

[right - sorry. It really wasn't said by Gwaihir...edited]
I don't think Glorfindel was one of the order of the Istari. The Istari were the 5 mentioned, and the other Istari went to the East of Middle Earth. (from the Sil).
From what said in the Sil, I at least understand that there were definitely more than 5.

[Manveru]

well obviously the others werent greater because it says "the chiefs were five"

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Maybe the unmentioned Istari were simply irrelevant to the story. They wouldn't be mentioned if they came to the south, and never got northern to Harad, in my opinion.

As Gwaihir said- I don't think Glorfindel was one of the order of the Istari. The Istari were the 5 mentioned, and the other Istari went to the East of Middle Earth. (from the Sil).
From what said in the Sil, I at least understand that there were definitely more than 5.

I didn't say that I didn't think he was (presuming you mean me by Gwaihir); just that I'd never thought of it that way. It could go either way in my fuddled brain. ;)

[ItalianLegolas]

i doubt that Glorfindel was an Istari, he just doesn't strike me as "wizardly"

[Attalus]

As often as JRRT changed his mind about Glorfindel, I am not sure I would totally exclude that he might have been somewhat associated with the Istari. Certainly, he was one of the Wise.

[Lenya]

I don't think he was Istari because then I believe Tolkien would have mentioned it somewhere. But I must admit, he would fit the profile.

[inked]

I think Glorfindel signifies the closest approach to the proper intended function of the Elves as they remained true to the Valar. He has been associated with Elrond for millenia, apparently, and is a picture of the more extant spiritual life and obedience in an individual. He is a very capable creature of both ME and the heavenlies and very much an image of what all elves and men, too, might have been but for the great marring of ME!

[Lenya]

That was said very good. I agree, I think it is possible for all people to be like him. But unfortunately there's always more tempting paths to take.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

In one of the books, Tolkien states that along with Gandalf(the Grey), Saruman(the White) and Radagast(the Brown)
came 2 un-named wizards, and all that we know about them is that they were robed in blue, so the obvious question is, what was the purpose of the 2 Blue wizards, because they are never mentioned in the core LoTR books, and is never mentioned by either Gandalf, Saruman or Radagast. So i would like to hear your ideas...

the purposes of all 5 istari was the succour of men and elves in their struggles against sauron, without seeking to dominate by force or power, and so i would say that is the only answer suitable for this question.

[Pytt]

Yeah, that is the definite answer to it, Chrys.

[ItalianLegolas]

well, that is the answer, but what did they do to better the lives of Men, Hobbits,Elves,Dwarves and all the other races of Middle-Earth? What did they do to thwart Sauron in his attempt for world-domination?

[Lenya]

Well Saruman didn't do much at the end cause he went over to the dark side. Gandalf did his bits here and there, like making Frodo take the ring to Rivendell and helping him further on his journey. He also counseled Aragorn and destroyed the Balrog. I don't know what Radagast or the other did but I'm sure they pushed here and pulled there to set things in motion.

[ItalianLegolas]

Gandalf did way more then a little bit, he was, as they say (somewhere) "the architect of Saurons downfall"

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

radagast sought to persuade birds and beasts to become friends of men elves and dwarves

[ItalianLegolas]

well I guess it worked, the eagles sure came in handy

[Pytt]

Off course the eagles came in handy. We saved that wizard on that roof, plus those two little children on that volcano. you might say we saved the whole operation ;)

[Radagast The Brown]

I don't think Radagast had anything to do with the Eagles though. The Eagles were more connected to Gandalf, as he was sent by Manwe and Varda, and the Eagles are from Manwe too. Radagast's part was very, very minor. Gandalf told him to ask from the animals to give information to him (Gandalf) and Saruman, when he met him near the Shire, and that I think was all he did.

[Manveru]

ya he says "Let messages be sent to Orthanc!" or something. Kinda counter-productive as it turned out

[Embladyne]

I think that that's all we are told of what he does, because it's what directly relates to LOTR. However, I don't think Radagast spent all his time frolicking with the animals. Unfortunately, Tolkien doesn't mention much about him, because he's just not a major figure in the known history of ME. But, unlike the blue wizards, we do know enough about him to form an idea of his personality.
In a way, the three Istari of Sarumon, Gandalf, and Radagast make a nice, balanced trio. Sarumon worries a lot about politics and power, Gandalf deals with the problems of the peoples of ME, and Radagast cares for the often voiceless flora and fauna. Too bad that the other two don't have a larger role in the story, it would have been interesting, but maybe ultimately too distracting.
The Eagles were more connected to Gandalf, as he was sent by Manwe and Varda, and the Eagles are from Manwe too. Yavanna also had a part in the song of the Eagles. There's a part in the Silm where she and Manwe speak of them, and she is saddened to hear that they wont be living in the forests of her creation, but instead they will dwell upon the mountains of Aule.

[Radagast The Brown]

I think that that's all we are told of what he does, because it's what directly relates to LOTR. However, I don't think Radagast spent all his time frolicking with the animals. Unfortunately, Tolkien doesn't mention much about him, because he's just not a major figure in the known history of ME. But, unlike the blue wizards, we do know enough about him to form an idea of his personality.
In a way, the three Istari of Sarumon, Gandalf, and Radagast make a nice, balanced trio. Sarumon worries a lot about politics and power, Gandalf deals with the problems of the peoples of ME, and Radagast cares for the often voiceless flora and fauna. Too bad that the other two don't have a larger role in the story, it would have been interesting, but maybe ultimately too distracting.Radagast did spend all his time with the animals, it seems.. especially in the UT. I can't quote it, I don't have the UT in English - but in the part of the Istari is specifically says Radagast left the mission and spend his days among the animals and birds.

Yavanna also had a part in the song of the Eagles. There's a part in the Silm where she and Manwe speak of them, and she is saddened to hear that they wont be living in the forests of her creation, but instead they will dwell upon the mountains of Aule.The Eagles were of Manwe's, I'm pretty sure... They're mentioned all over the book as the Eagles of Manwe.
This part doesn't mean Yavanna had anything to do wit hthe Eagles.. she just wanted them to live in the nests of her trees to protect the trees.

[Pytt]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Eagles were of Manwe. It is mentioned in the Sil, i remember.

[Embladyne]

Here ya go:
Manwe to Yavanna
But dost thou not now remember, Kementari, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Illuvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.
Although the Eagles may be called the Eagles of Manwe by some, Yavanna had a part in their making, as well.

[Pytt]

Ok. I didn't remember that. I think the reason I see them as Manwes, is beacuse he is the Headseat of the Valar, and they are mentioned with him later on in the book.

[Radagast The Brown]

A sentence later she mentions the King's Eagles - Manwe's Eagles. Not Yavanna's. :)
I've always understood this passage differently though, I didn't read it well. But anyway, the Eagles are still Manwe's, and therefore Gandalf was more in contact with them than Radagast.

[Embladyne]

Gandalf was more in contact with them than Radagast.True that.

[ItalianLegolas]

they basically are his though, regardless of whether Yavanna had a role in creating them or not, they are called 'The Eagles of Manwe' for a reason you know

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

they basically are his though, regardless of whether Yavanna had a role in creating them or not, they are called 'The Eagles of Manwe' for a reason you know
well, they're not really his, he may have had a part in their creation, and they may be subject to his rule and word, but they are sentient beings, and thus not belonging to anyone,

[ItalianLegolas]

i just noticed that i hit 500!! w00t! anyway, the eagles are sentient beings, but wuestion, why did Manwe create them?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

his sentinels, messengers, companions?

[Embladyne]

his sentinels, messengers, companions?Well, since their mention comes right after that of the ents...I think part of their purpose is for protection of other animal types.

[ItalianLegolas]

that would make sense, a good idea EM

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Well, since their mention comes right after that of the ents...I think part of their purpose is for protection of other animal types.
another very good notion, although IIRC the sil mentions that the eagles were to be the eyes and ears of manwe in ME after the rebellion of the noldor (Grr @ feanor :D), for manwe still had a thought and care for the elves, or words to that effect, tho i would severely doubt that the eagles were limited to a single purpose, they seem at least as intelligent as men, maybe even on a par with elves or even maiar?

[ItalianLegolas]

maybe they were Maiar

[Pytt]

I don't think they were Maiar. As LoCu says, they were the eyes and ears of Manwe, and I find it not likely they were maiar. But I can't really say why, so I'll guess I have to agree with you; they could be maiar ;)

[Radagast The Brown]

another very good notion, although IIRC the sil mentions that the eagles were to be the eyes and ears of manwe in ME after the rebellion of the noldor (Grr @ feanor :D), for manwe still had a thought and care for the elves, or words to that effect, tho i would severely doubt that the eagles were limited to a single purpose, they seem at least as intelligent as men, maybe even on a par with elves or even maiar?Don't think Manwe needed the Eagles to be his eyes or ears... when Manwe and Varda are together, he can see... pretty much everything, and Varda could hear any sound.

[Pytt]

Yes, but it is mentioned in the Sil, that the Eagles were Manwes eyes and ears.