The last 3 to be made?

[Sween]

It is stated in the Sil that the 3 elven rings were the last 3 to be made before Sauron took up the one ring. Now were these the fullfilment of the Elves or mearly as all there perdecessors mear triffals in craft? I mean surly they ment to make better or as powerfull rings for differents purposes? If so what do you think they would of been?

[Wayfarer]

The Three were the most powerful rings that the elves made. They were, in fact, successful in doing what the elves wanted all along - allowing their wielder to hold back time and keep things they way that they wanted them to be. This is what allowed Elrond and Galadrial to maintain Rivendell and Lorien, respectively.

[Attalus]

I suspect that there was a learning curve for Elven smiths just like for any craft. The Rings would have been improved on with each repetition until the culmination of the Three. I further suspect that the Sixteen were variably powerful until Sauron corrupted them, making them homogenous, more or less.

[Sween]

I suspect that there was a learning curve for Elven smiths just like for any craft. The Rings would have been improved on with each repetition until the culmination of the Three. I further suspect that the Sixteen were variably powerful until Sauron corrupted them, making them homogenous, more or less.


Yeah but my point is after ther three were made was that the end of the matter? did they not intend to make anymore? i mean thats is a completally hypothetical thread but its intresting to think what they might make and if they could of made a ring so potent to acctuaolly challenge the one

[The Gaffer]

I think there's a reference somewhere that when Sauron made the One, Celebrimbor became aware of him and his intent regarding the bearers of the other rings.

It would make sense, then, that the Elves realised that they had been partly duped into making these Rings, and that they made them vulnerable to Sauron. Hence, perhaps, it would be too risky to make any more.

However, there are strong hints in the Hobbit and LOTR that there were other, lesser Rings in existence.

[Wayfarer]

If by 'strong hints' you mean 'flat out declarations' then yes. :p

[Sween]

But if he had delayed making the one how many rings of power more would of been made?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Few if any I'd say. For in The Sil it says that Feanor could not make the Silmaril's like ever again so it is likely that Celebrimbor couldn't make any Rings of that power ever again.

[Durin1]

Few if any I'd say. For in The Sil it says that Feanor could not make the Silmaril's like ever again so it is likely that Celebrimbor couldn't make any Rings of that power ever again.

Agree, to impart "magic" you are imparting much of your natural essence (Sauron being a classic example). It would have just taken too much out of Celebrimbor to have made any more powerful Rings comparable to the 3 that he, alone made.

[Earniel]

I think that any ring the Elves would make after the forging of the One Ring would always be overruled by the One Ring. It's then kind of pointless to make other rings, IMO.

[Attalus]

I think that any ring the Elves would make after the forging of the One Ring would always be overruled by the One Ring. It's then kind of pointless to make other rings, IMO.I agree. Whatever technique Sauron taught them was obviously designed to have this one key put in its lock, so any future rings made would always be subject to the One, absent radical new technique.

[Sween]

You have all clearly missed the point somewhat! the point is what would of happened if sauron had delayed taking up the one ring? what other ringts would the elves of made or was that the end of the matter? were the three the culmination of all there desires or was there more for them to set there mind one. was sauron rather hasty to take up and make the one?

[Fat middle]

You have all clearly missed the point somewhat! the point is what would of happened if sauron had delayed taking up the one ring? what other ringts would the elves of made or was that the end of the matter? were the three the culmination of all there desires or was there more for them to set there mind one. was sauron rather hasty to take up and make the one?
Interesting point, Sween.

Considering that Tolkien said that the elves have some part of the guilt for trying to alter the world with the rings, we can suppose that although Sauron had not created the One the elves would keep forging more powerful rings able to alter the world into something more similar to their beloved "paradises lost": Beleriand, Tol Eressëa or Valinor... and that could be a bad thing for humans or dwarfs.

[Earniel]

You have all clearly missed the point somewhat!
Oh. Eh. Sorry. :o Supposing Sauron hadn't made the One Ring, I think the Elves would have continued forging rings. I don't think the Three was the best they could do.

[Artanis]

Few if any I'd say. For in The Sil it says that Feanor could not make the Silmaril's like ever again so it is likely that Celebrimbor couldn't make any Rings of that power ever again.I think Telcontar_Dunedain is making a valid point here.

[Attalus]

So, you all think that the Three were like Gleowine's elegy of Theoden, and he would have made no rings afterward? I don't agree. I think he would have gone on making Rings, for that was his besetting sin, to make artefacts that would make Middle-earth more like Valinor. I'm not sure that would be bad for Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits, though. They all admired Lothlorien and Imladris and wanted to stay in those places as long as possible.

[Earniel]

I wouldn't call it his sin, but I agree he wouldn't have stopped making Rings. The Silmarils could not be remade (and not only because the Trees were lost) but I always had the impression the smiths of Eregion were not yet to their master piece in Ringcraft when Sauron made the One Ring.

[ItalianLegolas]

well i guess it would only make sense that the elven rings were forged last so that the craft could be perfected, because it was the elves who got tricked into making the rings to begin with

[Pytt]

I think they would have gone on, making rings. Feanor could never make comparsions to the Sils again, but as I see it, this don't work with Celebrimbor. the rings he made, even the three elven rings, can't be compared to the three sils in beauty nor perfection. I think he would have made more, but maybe after a time, he also would have been exasuted. but in the meantime, he would have gone on making rings. I don't think the three rings are the best that could be made. But for what purpose they should be made, I don't know.

[Elemmírë]

Hm. This is probably a somewhat different take on it:

warning: Random Thought ;)

Could Sauron have waited any longer to make the One Ring? Assuming that the Three were not the apex of Celebrimbor's skill (probably speculation either way), most likely any that were made afterwards would be even more powerful.

The smiths of Eregion had Sauron's help in the forging of all the rings save for the last three, right? IMHO, the Elves seem to constantly be getting more independent in their work... The last three Sauron never even touched. However, they were still bound to the One.

Would it have possibly been otherwise if Celebrimbor had gotten any better at creating the Rings?

Hey, btw, does anyone know if the Nine and the Seven were of equal strength?

[Attalus]

The Nine and the Seven, as made, were not of differing sorts, though they may have had some slight differences in power. The change might have occurred when Sauron "corrupted" them. Sauron, who knows what he could have done? We do know that there was no difference between the effects of any of the Nine or the Seven in the reactions that they elicited from their victims.

[Earniel]

Could Sauron have waited any longer to make the One Ring? Assuming that the Three were not the apex of Celebrimbor's skill (probably speculation either way), most likely any that were made afterwards would be even more powerful.
Interesting idea. If the Elves became too fast too skilled in Ring-making, Sauron would have had to react before the Elves smiths had completely mastered the art. Perhaps the Elves may have succeeded in making a ring that would not be subject to the One like all the rest if they had had the chance. Purely conjecture of course, but interesting to consider.

[Manveru]

As said before the 3 elvish rings made by celebrimbor were sorta like feanor making the silmails. they were the height of their skill thus far. after them if sauron hadnt made the one ring, i assume celebrimbor would have still tried to make better rings but it would be a long time before anyone made a better ring

[Elemmírë]

As said before the 3 elvish rings made by celebrimbor were sorta like feanor making the silmails. they were the height of their skill thus far. after them if sauron hadnt made the one ring, i assume celebrimbor would have still tried to make better rings but it would be a long time before anyone made a better ring

It is quite possible, of course, but I disagree. Fëanor's creation of the Silmarils was the height of his creative ability. Fëanor says:

For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like.

Clearly, the Silmarils were not the height of Fëanor's skill "thus far", but simply the height of his skill, or so one could assume.

It is more difficult to say with Celebrimbor. Considering the situation under which the Rings were made, and how abruptly the making came to a halt, I would argue that (considering he was Fëanor's grandson) had he been given more time before Sauron put on the One Ring, he would have most likely created something more powerful. Mere speculation, of course.

Now, as to my last theory, I now have evidence! :eek: A miracle, no?

And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency.

This indicates to me that had Celebrimbor been given the time to create more powerful Rings, Sauron would not have had the power to control them.

[Manveru]

Clearly, the Silmarils were not the height of Fëanor's skill "thus far", but simply the height of his skill, or so one could assume.


actually i was talking about Celebrimbor there but w/e, Feanor definately couldnt have made anything better than the Silmarils, but perhaps somebody else could have (maybe Mahtan, the guy who was taught by Aule himself and who trained Feanor). but anyways thats getting off topic, im sure either Celebrimbor or another elf could have made some rings that were either better than the three, or at least as powerful had Sauron not done his thing

On a less controversial note: yay, my 100th post

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think they would have gone on, making rings. Feanor could never make comparsions to the Sils again, but as I see it, this don't work with Celebrimbor. the rings he made, even the three elven rings, can't be compared to the three sils in beauty nor perfection. I think he would have made more, but maybe after a time, he also would have been exasuted. but in the meantime, he would have gone on making rings. I don't think the three rings are the best that could be made. But for what purpose they should be made, I don't know.
I disagree. Look at Lorien before and after the One was destroyed. This was surely the effect of Galadriel's Ring.

[ItalianLegolas]

what was? the fact that the mallorns started growing again? :confused:

[Manveru]

i think he meant the fact that it was so beautiful. legolas says that he's always wanted to visit lothlorien because its beauty is renowned throughout middle-earth

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

what was? the fact that the mallorns started growing again? :confused:
The fact that Lorien was preserved the way it was. Look at how it was before the destrucion of the Ring and then afterwards.

[Durin1]

The whole point of making the 3 Rings in the first place was to slow down the effects of Time, and as a result, decay; which, for elves, is a cause for sadness.

Note Sam's comments about time seems to have stood still in Lorien, though Legolas puts a different perspective on it.

Also, in "Of the Rings of Power" we are told that Sauron seduces the Elves of Eregion by exploiting their common fear - of fading. He says to them that he understands that they never left after the end of the First Age because they loved Midde-earth. He states that they could still continue to enjoy the mortal lands, whilst also creating a version of Valinor (i.e. where there is no decay). This is pretty much what triggers them to make the rings.

[Pytt]

I disagree. Look at Lorien before and after the One was destroyed. This was surely the effect of Galadriel's Ring.

I'm not sure about what you are disagreeing to here TD. the way I can see it, Lorien has nothing to do with if Celebrimbor could have made more rings.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I was replying to the fact that someone said that Calelbrimbor could powerful Rings than the ones that were previously made and I was using Lorien before and after the diminshing of the three.

[Elemmírë]

I still don't know what your disagreeing with, TD.

Just because Lorien was preserved by Nenya does not mean that Celebrimbor could have made more rings later with more or different powers that were stronger, IMO. ;)

Manveru - I'm pretty sure that Feanor got to a part where he surpassed Mahtan. My guess would also be that no Elvish smith in the 2nd Age was more skilled than Celebrimbor, Feanor's grandson. I agree with you, however, that the Three were probably not the height of his ability. And congratulations on your 100+ posts. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Okay. Sauron forged the One before the destruction of Numenor. In that time Celebrimbor made the three. Correct? If they were not the height of his power then why did he not forge more while Sauron was in Numenor that were the hieght of his skill?

[Elemmírë]

Well, maybe because Celebrimbor was dead. ;)

TD, I just looked through that part of the Silm again, I must admit, my memory of it is not too clear...

It seems that Sauron made the One Ring before going to and corrupting Numenor. He killed Celebrimbor before going as well.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Oh! :o
So that's where my defence fails! But I still think that the Three were the height if his power.

[Pytt]

I did'nt remember that either, so I waited until someone looked it up. Don't have the Sil here... but then I see what you mean, TD :)

[Durin1]

Case of needing to brush up on your history :D

The best way to work out the chronology is to look in the Tale of Years in your copy of LoTR.

Roughly during the middle of the 2nd Age the elves began to create the Rings of Power. Shortly after Sauron made the One. The elves found out and hid the 3 Rings from him. This started the first War of Sauron and the Elves, which continued until the Numenorean navy came to the rescue of Gil-galad. Sauron was defeated and began to concentrate his power to the East for the next few hundred years; until Ar-Pharazon came to ME and humbled Sauron.

[Pytt]

I think so Durin1. and thanks for the tips :)

but TD. I think Celebrimbor were capable of making more, and more powerfull rings. as someone said, he was atleast Feanors grandson( or is that also wrong :confused: ) so I think he had more power, more of this magic it would take to make these rings. the three already made was great, but not thge greatest. I think

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If Celebrimbor was capable of making more powerful Rings than the three he had already made then why did he not just flee Eregion and create more Rings that wouldn't be binded by the One? Instead he hid the three as if there sort would never again be made upon ME.

[Durin1]

If Celebrimbor was capable of making more powerful Rings than the three he had already made then why did he not just flee Eregion and create more Rings that wouldn't be binded by the One? Instead he hid the three as if there sort would never again be made upon ME.

:confused:

Firstly, In Tale of Years it says of the jewel-smiths that (paraphrased): they reach the height of their power.

Celebrimbor had reached the height of his skill. Why would he try and make more rings if all his thought went into the 3 elvish rings?

... and even if Celebrimbor wanted to make more rings (which is illogical) when would he have had the time and effort? Sauron, realising the elves perceived him through the One, used Plan B: to take the rings by force. This was only about a year or 2 later.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

My point exacly. I was saying that if they weren't the height of his power (which I've said they were) then he could have made others that weren't bound to the One.

[Radagast The Brown]

Firstly, In Tale of Years it says of the jewel-smiths that (paraphrased): they reach the height of their power. I understood this differently when I read this part first - I thought Tolkien meant that they reached the best they did and will do... which doesn't mean much, since they died 100 years after by Sauron (but probably weren't thinking most of the time of making rings but weapons, they knew they're going to fight Sauron).

Or, maybe I didn't understand well. :)

[Elemmírë]

Found it... :)

c. 1500: The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
c. 1590: The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
c. 1600: Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.

You can look at this and say that no matter what, "height of power" means that they could not have perfected their skills in any situation.

Or you can believe that this statement means that this was the height of skill that they actually reached. It is undeniable that they did not get any better (since they were all killed), but this second interpretation simply states the obvious and makes no claim of what might have been.

Am I correct in believing that you're following the second interpretation, RtB?

IMO, the second makes more sense. In fact, I must say that there is something of a contradiction here. If they reach the height of power in 1500, why does it take an extra 90 years to make the Three Rings? In my mind, this indicates that by 1500 they had reached the point where they could make Rings of Power. Obviously though, these skills could still be refined and were still being refined 90 years later.

I think it could be argued that had Sauron not made the One Ring ten years later, further refinement would still have been possible. :)

[Radagast The Brown]

Found it... :)



You can look at this and say that no matter what, "height of power" means that they could not have perfected their skills in any situation.

Or you can believe that this statement means that this was the height of skill that they actually reached. It is undeniable that they did not get any better (since they were all killed), but this second interpretation simply states the obvious and makes no claim of what might have been.

Am I correct in believing that you're following the second interpretation, RtB?

IMO, the second makes more sense. In fact, I must say that there is something of a contradiction here. If they reach the height of power in 1500, why does it take an extra 90 years to make the Three Rings? In my mind, this indicates that by 1500 they had reached the point where they could make Rings of Power. Obviously though, these skills could still be refined and were still being refined 90 years later.

I think it could be argued that had Sauron not made the One Ring ten years later, further refinement would still have been possible. :)Yes, the second interpretation is the one I meant.. I did look at it, after looking in the Silmarillion (and nothing about it is mentioned there, just that they made the greatest work ever made since Feanor)

What you're saying afterwards, though, doesn't contradict their interpretation, as I see it. The fact that it takes them a lot of time to make the Rings doesn't turn the theory that it was their height of power wrong.. IMO it has nothing to do with it.

[Elemmírë]

What you're saying afterwards, though, doesn't contradict their interpretation, as I see it. The fact that it takes them a lot of time to make the Rings doesn't turn the theory that it was their height of power wrong.. IMO it has nothing to do with it.

Well, it seems to me that they continuously made more powerful Rings. The Three were the last ones that Celebrimbor made, and this was clearly after they started making them 90 years earlier. What I'm saying is that if they had already reached the height of their skill when they began to make the Rings, then how could the ones finished 90 years later be more powerful than the earlier ones?

Does that make sense?

[Pytt]

maybe it just took time for them to make these rings. but I still think they could have made more powerful rings, if not Sauron had created the one. as I see it, Celebrimbor is not exhausted yet, not completely.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well, it seems to me that they continuously made more powerful Rings. The Three were the last ones that Celebrimbor made, and this was clearly after they started making them 90 years earlier. What I'm saying is that if they had already reached the height of their skill when they began to make the Rings, then how could the ones finished 90 years later be more powerful than the earlier ones?

Does that make sense?
Because it says 'The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.'(Bolding used to emphasis my point)
It says Elven-Smiths, which indicates that it was more than one Elven-Smith that made the earlier Rings. Celebrimbor alone made the three and he was the most natural Smith their and probably the best. So the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, without Sauron's instuctions. The Nine and the Seven were made by more than one Elven-Smith, under the instuctions of Sauron who's thought was only in binding these Ring's with one more powerful one of his own.

[Radagast The Brown]

Yeah, I understand you now Elemmire. Makes a lot of sense. :)

Because it says 'The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.'(Bolding used to emphasis my point)
It says Elven-Smiths, which indicates that it was more than one Elven-Smith that made the earlier Rings. Celebrimbor alone made the three and he was the most natural Smith their and probably the best. So the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, without Sauron's instuctions. The Nine and the Seven were made by more than one Elven-Smith, under the instuctions of Sauron who's thought was only in binding these Ring's with one more powerful one of his own.Again, I don't really see what you're proving by that.. you don't really know what Celebrimbor did before, and i don't think it really matters. It doesn't mean he couldnb't do better job, and we know he probably took part in making the lesser rings too.

Besides, I've always thought Celebrimbor used Sauron's "technics" when he made the Three - just that Sauron didn't actually touched/saw them.

[Elemmírë]

Again, I don't really see what you're proving by that.. you don't really know what Celebrimbor did before, and i don't think it really matters. It doesn't mean he couldnb't do better job, and we know he probably took part in making the lesser rings too.

I agree with you, RtB... But I think TD is arguing that because Celebrimbor is only mentioned in the making of the Three, if one were to assume that he was not involved in the making of the others, then it could be argued that he was already at the height of his power 90 years earlier and simply... took his time, I suppose. ;) In which case "height of skill" could be argued to mean potential height as well as practical.

An awful lot of arguing and assuming going on there, though... especially by me... ;)

Besides, I've always thought Celebrimbor used Sauron's "technics" when he made the Three - just that Sauron didn't actually touched/saw them.

I don't think that TD is saying Celebrimbor made the three with his own and original technique... simply that Sauron did not personally instruct him.

I'm not sure what TD is arguing here either... :confused:

Perhaps that Celebrimbor should be counted as something separate from the "Elven-smiths"? Now there's an interesting idea... :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What I'm saying is that Celebrimbor was probably the mos talented of the Elven-Smiths (being the grandson of Fëanor).
c. 1500: The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power
If the Elven-Smiths reach the height of their power then I'm presuming that Celebrimbor did aswell. I take 'height of their skill' to mean that this is the best that they could accomplish, which will logically mean that Celebrimbor made the best Rings he could. If they weren't then why not? Surely it's better to make something as best as you can.

[Radagast The Brown]

What I'm saying is that Celebrimbor was probably the mos talented of the Elven-Smiths (being the grandson of Fëanor).

If the Elven-Smiths reach the height of their power then I'm presuming that Celebrimbor did aswell. I take 'height of their skill' to mean that this is the best that they could accomplish, which will logically mean that Celebrimbor made the best Rings he could. If they weren't then why not? Surely it's better to make something as best as you can.If you read Elemmire's post (#44) you'd find an explanation that I think more logical to 'The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill.' and what you quotes afterwards was a reason why she thought so. :)