Gothmog

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

is there any decisive statement that states what gothmog was?
all he is referred to as in lotr is the lieutenant of minas morgul.
i have difficulty seeing him as an orc, but also i have difficulty
seeing him as a lesser nazgul. perhaps more along the same
lines as the mouth of sauron, a black numenorean?

thoughts...ideas...? :)

[Fenir_LacDanan]

is there any decisive statement that states what gothmog was?
all he is referred to as in lotr is the lieutenant of minas morgul.
i have difficulty seeing him as an orc, but also i have difficulty
seeing him as a lesser nazgul. perhaps more along the same
lines as the mouth of sauron, a black numenorean?

thoughts...ideas...? :)


Well I don't think that any mere orc would be left in charge of such a great fortress as Minas Morgul. And the whole lesser nazgul thing doesn't really fly, I recon. Has there been any other mention of lesser nazgul, bar the matter of Frodo?

I agree that it's probably a black Numenorean.

[Attalus]

Well I don't think that any mere orc would be left in charge of such a great fortress as Minas Morgul. And the whole lesser nazgul thing doesn't really fly, I recon. Has there been any other mention of lesser nazgul, bar the matter of Frodo?

I agree that it's probably a black Numenorean.
I agree that Gothmog (II ;) ) was a Black Numenorean. I don't think any Orc was put in charge of anything but other Orcs, bar Azog.

[Haradrim]

Welll orcs definatley had to have leaders. No army could run without some kind of rank system. That would eb silly! :) I htink he wa sjust a really powerful orc who had made hsi way to the top.

[Pytt]

yes, an army need some sort of rank system, and if I were to decide who should rule on of the greatest citys in my kingdom, I donbt' think an orc would be the one. rather a black numenorean. maybe an orc in charge in a battle on the battlefield, but not to rule a city of that sice.

[Manveru]

i agree, he was probably a black numenorean, i dont really think that sauron trusted his orcs that much to put one in charge of one of his greatest fortresses.

[ItalianLegolas]

It says in The Tolkien Companion by J.E. A. Tyler that:
Gothmog was "the cheif Liutenant of the Tower of Minas Morgul during the War of the Ring. His race-whether Orc, Troll, or NAzgul - is unknown. He took command of the hosts of Morgul during the battle of the Pellennor Fields after the fall of the Overlord"
So that leaves it open for speculation, he could be a Black Numenorean, but he would have lived a little long i think, he is probably one of the Maiar that Sauron took under his control

[Attalus]

It says in The Tolkien Companion by J.E. A. Tyler that:
Gothmog was "the cheif Liutenant of the Tower of Minas Morgul during the War of the Ring. His race-whether Orc, Troll, or NAzgul - is unknown. He took command of the hosts of Morgul during the battle of the Pellennor Fields after the fall of the Overlord"
So that leaves it open for speculation, he could be a Black Numenorean, but he would have lived a little long i think, he is probably one of the Maiar that Sauron took under his controlOdd, this isn't what your post reads as. [Edit] Oh, now I see. You edited it.

[Findegil]

How can you say that he lived to long to be anything. As fare as I know he is just once mentioned and there we were not given his age. Thus, as fare as we know he could have been a jungster of let say 30 years for all we know when he was seen on the Pelenor.

Respectfully
Findegil

[me9996]

It says in The Tolkien Companion by J.E. A. Tyler that:
Gothmog was "the cheif Liutenant of the Tower of Minas Morgul during the War of the Ring. His race-whether Orc, Troll, or NAzgul - is unknown. He took command of the hosts of Morgul during the battle of the Pellennor Fields after the fall of the Overlord"
So that leaves it open for speculation, he could be a Black Numenorean, but he would have lived a little long i think, he is probably one of the Maiar that Sauron took under his control
I've got it! A wraith! (After all...)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Has there been any other mention of lesser nazgul, bar the matter of Frodo?Khamul, in cahrge of Dol Guldar in between the times of Hobbit and LoTR (currently an admin here)

[Beor]

Gothmog from LOTR was a used car salesman from New Jersey, which rests right where Minas Morgul used to be. Its crazy how these things work out.

[Attalus]

Khamul, in cahrge of Dol Guldar in between the times of Hobbit and LoTR (currently an admin here)Also called "the Terror of the East." And the Moot? ;) ;) :p

[Gordis]

It says in The Tolkien Companion by J.E. A. Tyler that: Gothmog was "the cheif Liutenant of the Tower of Minas Morgul during the War of the Ring. His race-whether Orc, Troll, or NAzgul - is unknown. He took command of the hosts of Morgul during the battle of the Pellennor Fields after the fall of the Overlord" So that leaves it open for speculation, he could be a Black Numenorean, but he would have lived a little long i think, he is probably one of the Maiar that Sauron took under his control
He could be a young Black Numenorean. Somehow people tend to think that a "Black Numenorean" was a Second age term only, so any Black Numenorean would be over 3000 years old. But it is not so. Actually Black Numenoreans were a people of Numenorean origin living in Harad (and probably in Mordor as well) throughout the III age. Some of the rulers of Harad were Black Numenoreans.
There were many Numenoreans living in ME at the time of the Downfall, and so they survived. Some were "king's men", called Black Numenoreans, worshipping Morgoth and refusing to speak elvish. The others were "the faithful", still honoring the Valar and Eru, even after the Downfall. The faithful joined Isildur and Anarion and were the base of Gondor population. All Numenoreans were proud of their origin and tried not to mingle with lesser men. In the north, people of Numenorean descent were called "dunedain" = men of the west in Elvish. Some black numenoreans allied themselves with Sauron, others probably put the blame of Numenor's downfall both on Sauron and the Valar and so remained more or less neutral in Harad. Umbar corsairs were descendants of Black Numenoreans. Queen Beruthiel was a Black Numenorean. Mouth of Sauron was one also. The latter must have worked for Sauron since his return to Mordor - for about 70 years so he was not an old man either (by numenorean standards).

As for Gothmog, I think he was a nazgul, though there is no direct evidence.

[CrazySquirrel]

Hay, wasn't he a BARLOG? The one Glorfindel killed? Glorfindel has returned why not the barlog? And Gandalf returned and Sauron.

[Twista]

Hay, wasn't he a BARLOG? The one Glorfindel killed? Glorfindel has returned why not the barlog? And Gandalf returned and Sauron.

Yes, the lord of all Balrogs was also called Gothmog so you are correct in that sence.

But Gothmog is also the name of a 'Orc' General in the war of the ring.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Hay, wasn't he a BARLOG? The one Glorfindel killed? Glorfindel has returned why not the barlog? And Gandalf returned and Sauron.
We are speaking of Gothmog II here, of course :D nice to meet you BTW, why dont you introduce yourself in the welcome thread in general messages

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Whatever Gothmog was I know what he wasn't... a retarded, bell's palsy suffering, pale pink skined, one handed, dip $hit that Peter Jackson made him to be.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Whatever Gothmog was I know what he wasn't... a retarded, bell's palsy suffering, pale pink skined, one handed, dip $hit that Peter Jackson made him to be.
LMAO!

[HistoryGuy]

Gothmog was the Lt of Angband in The Silmarillion. He was a character to remember because he lead his Troll Guard, and brood (along with Orcs, Wolves, Uruloki, and others) to Gondolin. By that time, Gondolin was the last great Elven city (Noldor) in Beleriand. Gondolin would destroyed, and it's two trees would be burnt.

Gothmog in LotR, I would say have to be a Black Numenorean.

[CrazySquirrel]

So you all rule out that Gothmog I and Gothmog II were the same person?
As Glorfindel I and Glorfindel II?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

yes, the balrog of moria was most likely the only one left by the time of the third age

[Twista]

yes, the balrog of moria was most likely the only one left by the time of the third age

You dont know that :p

After Morgoth was defeated it states "the few remaining Balrogs crawled into the cracks of the earth...." so there could have been more. No?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

depends which text you use :p
i hold to the idea that there were only 7 to begin with, two slain in sack of gondolin, some must have been slain in war of wrath, can't leave many, can it? and i certainly don't think balrogs came back, the only maia to return to ME from death was gandalf, and that was due to his task, and the fall of saruman, eru had to have a white istari in charge, frankly :D

[Twista]

Im not going to get into this now. lol.

BUT all I'm saying is that there could have been more..

Maybe there was another in the east... and I dont know... maybe Palando, one of the missing Isitari, faugt a mirrored battle like Gandalf and Durins Bane....

Or is that just silly? :p

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i dont know, all i'm saying is that there was only one in the northwest of middle earth(mordor-rhun westwards) at the time of WotR:p

[CrazySquirrel]

If you dig deep under the mountains perhaps you find a couple more

[CrazySquirrel]

He could be a young Black Numenorean. Somehow people tend to think that a "Black Numenorean" was a Second age term only, so any Black Numenorean would be over 3000 years old. But it is not so. Actually Black Numenoreans were a people of Numenorean origin living in Harad (and probably in Mordor as well) throughout the III age. Some of the rulers of Harad were Black Numenoreans.
There were many Numenoreans living in ME at the time of the Downfall, and so they survived. Some were "king's men", called Black Numenoreans, worshipping Morgoth and refusing to speak elvish. The others were "the faithful", still honoring the Valar and Eru, even after the Downfall. The faithful joined Isildur and Anarion and were the base of Gondor population. All Numenoreans were proud of their origin and tried not to mingle with lesser men. In the north, people of Numenorean descent were called "dunedain" = men of the west in Elvish. Some black numenoreans allied themselves with Sauron, others probably put the blame of Numenor's downfall both on Sauron and the Valar and so remained more or less neutral in Harad. Umbar corsairs were descendants of Black Numenoreans. Queen Beruthiel was a Black Numenorean. Mouth of Sauron was one also. The latter must have worked for Sauron since his return to Mordor - for about 70 years so he was not an old man either (by numenorean standards).

As for Gothmog, I think he was a nazgul, though there is no direct evidence.
HEHE IF he were a nazgul where has he got the horse to ride? :D :D :p

[Gordis]

HEHE IF he were a nazgul where has he got the horse to ride? :D :D :p
HOHO HE has taken the one the Witch-King left at the gate! :p