LoTR Discussion Project: Book II Chapter 4: A journey in the dark

[Earniel]

Summary:

The chapter starts with the Fellowship having to face a tough decision: to go through the Moria-mines or find another way. Not only would it help them to get further on their journey but it would also help to make the Fellowship drop off the radar after their open attempt of crossing the mountains. But before they have a chance to talk it through thoroughly, a new danger in the form of Wargs forces their decision. After a battle - and some pretty impressive action from Gandalf - they break up camp and move on.

When they finally reach the Gate of Moria, they find the land curiously changed. Before the gates we get another glimpse of the enmity between Dwarves and Elves. And Sam has to turn his beloved Bill the pony loose. Poor Sam!

The Gate itself proved to be another obstacle, but Gandalf manages. (Is there anything wizards can’t do?) And again, before they have a good chance to discuss whether they still want to go through the Mines, another danger, this time emerging from the lake, drives them forth and locks them inside the mountain.

With the way out barred the Fellowship is left with no option other than brave the darkness of Moria. Gimli was probably the only one who wasn’t sorry for that. His obvious eagerness to enter Moria throughout the chapter is quite endearing.

The road ahead of them was not without danger, with fissures, cracks and pitfalls making their path a difficult one. Sam misses both rope and poor Bill. ;) And after the infamous incident with the Took, the well and the stone, the old Dwarf-home doesn’t seem to be as quiet as it had seemed.

But Moria proves it can be both a dreadful and a wonderful place after they reach the large hall. And we get a glimpse of what Moria had been in its golden age through Gimli’s marvellous song, which goes to show that in each of these small grumpy men, there’s a poet waiting to get out. The chapter ends on a bit of a cliffhanger when the Fellowship discovers the tomb of Balin.


Eärniel’s further ramblings:

An interesting tidbit: When the Fellowship is considering whether to go on or return to Rivendell, Gandalf says: “ The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master’s hand again.”

It not only gives the indication that the Ringwraiths draw strenght either from the One Ring or from Sauron himself. And considering the already terrifying effect the Ringwraith’s scream had and the personal power the Witch King possessed, it’s nigh mindboggling how frightening they could have been.

The fight with the Wargs is one of those often-forgotten moments in LoTR that I’m rather fond of (and one of the reasons I wanted this chapter). It has such nice sentences:

How the wind howls! It is howling with wolf-voices. The Wargs have come west of the Mountains!
"The wolf that one hears is worse than the orc that one fears.”
“True! But where the warg howls, there also the orc prowls”
Ah, middle-earth- sayings… so wonderful.

And I nearly forgot this one:
“My heart’s right down in my toes, Mr. Pippin. Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, I’ll wager it isn’t a wolf’s belly.”

Discussion starting points:

1) Gandalf states he had considered the possibility of passing through Moria already in the beginning. I wonder whether this would have influenced the addition of Gimli to the Fellowship. Would Gandalf have specifically wanted a Dwarf to join the Fellowship because of Dwarves’ innate skills in mines and not just to represent all the Free People of Middle-earth?

2) In the morning after the wolf-attack the narration goes:
That day the weather changed again, almost as if it was at the command of some power that had no longer any use for snow, since they had retreated from the pass, a power that wished now to have a clear sight in which things that moved in the wild could be seen from far away.
Is this the lingering evil influence of the Caradhras, or could it be the power of Sauron, seeking to locate the Ring? It would imply Sauron had quite a long reach indeed, not to mention some power over the elements. A force to be reckoned with, even without his Ring on his hand. Interestingly (and here I’m running slightly ahead) these changes in weather and such don’t seem to return after the Fellowship’s journey through the Moria-mines. Would Gandalf’s plan to hide their trail underground have been succesful, even despite the fight with the Balrog and the orcs?

3) The Watcher in the Water forcefully closes the Gatedoors of Moria when its plan to grab Frodo failed. Would it have been under Sauron’s command or perhaps under that of the Balrog? Is it a coincidence that-since it failed to get Frodo- it therefore locked up the entire Fellowship in the Mines? And just how intelligent do you think the Watcher is?

4) Frodo finds out in the mines that his night-sight has improved and ascribes it to the wound he received from the Ringwraiths. He also think something might be following them. We later learn what it was, but what did you think it was, the first time you read LoTR? Do you still remember? My first time around I thought it had merely been Frodo’s imagination.


Some art-work:

And lastly, some beautiful art-work corresponding to this chapter:
The Gate of Moria (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/nasmith/moria.jpg)
Before the Gate of Moria (http://images.tolkienworld.free.fr/alan_lee/porte-moria.jpg)
Within the Mines (http://csirke.inf.elte.hu/tolkien/kepek/moria.gif)

There, I’m done rambling now, it’s my Entish nature I fear. Hoom. ;) But you can all wake up and start the discussion. Sorry to have kept you waiting.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

excellent Summary and Introduction

1) Gandalf states he had considered the possibility of passing through Moria already in the beginning. I wonder whether this would have influenced the addition of Gimli to the Fellowship. Would Gandalf have specifically wanted a Dwarf to join the Fellowship because of Dwarves’ innate skills in mines and not just to represent all the Free People of Middle-earth?
I think that, whilst Gandalf did have a mind to travel the mines, Gimli was added merely as a representative of a free people, although his dwarvish skill as a warrior may have been another determining factor.

2) In the morning after the wolf-attack the narration goes:

Is this the lingering evil influence of the Caradhras, or could it be the power of Sauron, seeking to locate the Ring? It would imply Sauron had quite a long reach indeed, not to mention some power over the elements. A force to be reckoned with, even without his Ring on his hand. Interestingly (and here I’m running slightly ahead) these changes in weather and such don’t seem to return after the Fellowship’s journey through the Moria-mines. Would Gandalf’s plan to hide their trail underground have been succesful, even despite the fight with the Balrog and the orcs?
no thoughts at the moment

3) The Watcher in the Water forcefully closes the Gatedoors of Moria when its plan to grab Frodo failed. Would it have been under Sauron’s command or perhaps under that of the Balrog? Is it a coincidence that-since it failed to get Frodo- it therefore locked up the entire Fellowship in the Mines? And just how intelligent do you think the Watcher is?
I don't think that the watcher is intelligent, certainly not an the level of elves/maiar, more a malevolent being, operating under evil intent, not necessarily anyone(thing)s direction

4) Frodo finds out in the mines that his night-sight has improved and ascribes it to the wound he received from the Ringwraiths. He also think something might be following them. We later learn what it was, but what did you think it was, the first time you read LoTR? Do you still remember? My first time around I thought it had merely been Frodo’s imagination.
I had an idea, during my first reading, that it could have been something on the same lines of nazgul, obviously unfounded!

[Beren3000]

Great intro (and artwork), Earniel! :)
I'll post my thoughts later...

[Beren3000]

Ok, here we go:

1) Gandalf states he had considered the possibility of passing through Moria already in the beginning. I wonder whether this would have influenced the addition of Gimli to the Fellowship. Would Gandalf have specifically wanted a Dwarf to join the Fellowship because of Dwarves’ innate skills in mines and not just to represent all the Free People of Middle-earth?
I don't see why it should. Even if Gandalf had Moria in mind, he needn't have choseng Gimli; after all, as we see in this chapter (and the coming one) Gandalf appears to know a lot about Moria and its rooms and divisions and levels and all that so much so that he led the Fellowship through it. What has Gimli done? Next to nothing...

2) Is this the lingering evil influence of the Caradhras, or could it be the power of Sauron, seeking to locate the Ring? It would imply Sauron had quite a long reach indeed, not to mention some power over the elements. A force to be reckoned with, even without his Ring on his hand. Interestingly (and here I’m running slightly ahead) these changes in weather and such don’t seem to return after the Fellowship’s journey through the Moria-mines. Would Gandalf’s plan to hide their trail underground have been succesful, even despite the fight with the Balrog and the orcs?
I think that Peter Jordan's interpretation is good enough: this force is probably Saruman, as all the troubles that faced the Fellowship so far (bar the Nazgul) have come from Saruman: the squint-eyed southerner, the crebain, etc... So this may well be his influence also.

3) The Watcher in the Water forcefully closes the Gatedoors of Moria when its plan to grab Frodo failed. Would it have been under Sauron’s command or perhaps under that of the Balrog? Is it a coincidence that-since it failed to get Frodo- it therefore locked up the entire Fellowship in the Mines? And just how intelligent do you think the Watcher is?
Interesting point! I'd say that it was under the command of the Balrog, as I don't think the Watcher is intelligent enough to do that on his own.

4) Frodo finds out in the mines that his night-sight has improved and ascribes it to the wound he received from the Ringwraiths. He also think something might be following them. We later learn what it was, but what did you think it was, the first time you read LoTR? Do you still remember? My first time around I thought it had merely been Frodo’s imagination.
I thought it was Frodo's imagination, too; something to keep the suspense going.

[Artanis]

Great intro Eärniel! :)
Gandalf states he had considered the possibility of passing through Moria already in the beginning. I wonder whether this would have influenced the addition of Gimli to the Fellowship. Would Gandalf have specifically wanted a Dwarf to join the Fellowship because of Dwarves’ innate skills in mines and not just to represent all the Free People of Middle-earth?.I'm sure both Gandalf and Elrond wanted to have a Dwarf in the company, for several reasons, just as they wanted an Elf in, and Hobbits, and Men. It was imo of vital importance that all the free people of Middle-Earth had their representative in the company. To me it has a symbolic meaning, much in the same way as with Eärendil, who were representing both Elves and Men by bloodline, managed to go to Valinor and get aid from the Valar. So I don't think Gimli was in primarily because of Moria, but Gandalf may have thought of it as an advantage, he probably knew that Gimli would be eager to go there. But if Elrond had been present in the discussions between Gandalf and Aragorn on which route to take, I think he would have been clearly on Aragorn's side.
Is this the lingering evil influence of the Caradhras, or could it be the power of Sauron, seeking to locate the Ring? It would imply Sauron had quite a long reach indeed, not to mention some power over the elements. A force to be reckoned with, even without his Ring on his hand. Interestingly (and here I’m running slightly ahead) these changes in weather and such don’t seem to return after the Fellowship’s journey through the Moria-mines. Would Gandalf’s plan to hide their trail underground have been succesful, even despite the fight with the Balrog and the orcs?Interesting observation about the weather Eärniel. I always get a feeling of determinism when I read the chapters from where the company set out from Imladris. Everything that happen seem to lead the company into one predetermined course: into Moria. For one purpose I think: Gandalf's encounter with the Balrog (and now I am moving slightly forward, but this is well-known for everyone, isn't it?). It is as if the fight between Gandalf and the Balrog was meant to be, just as Frodo was meant to be the Ring-bearer. There are imo great forces at work here, greater than both Sauron or Saruman, or the Ring.
The Watcher in the Water forcefully closes the Gatedoors of Moria when its plan to grab Frodo failed. Would it have been under Sauron’s command or perhaps under that of the Balrog? Is it a coincidence that-since it failed to get Frodo- it therefore locked up the entire Fellowship in the Mines? And just how intelligent do you think the Watcher is?This is all speculations on my part, but I guess the Watcher was operating on its own, probably not aware of the company before they crossed that creek, and later were roused again by the pebble thrown into the water. It was probably also drawn by the evil power of the Ring, I don't think it was a coincidence that it was Frodo who was grabbed first.
Frodo finds out in the mines that his night-sight has improved and ascribes it to the wound he received from the Ringwraiths. He also think something might be following them. We later learn what it was, but what did you think it was, the first time you read LoTR? Do you still remember? My first time around I thought it had merely been Frodo’s imagination.I have read the book too many times to remember what I thought about these sounds at the very first reading. But I do know that I did not think of what it later turned out to be. :) Was that last sentence intelligible? :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Great intro Eärniel!

1) Gandalf states he had considered the possibility of passing through Moria already in the beginning. I wonder whether this would have influenced the addition of Gimli to the Fellowship. Would Gandalf have specifically wanted a Dwarf to join the Fellowship because of Dwarves’ innate skills in mines and not just to represent all the Free People of Middle-earth?
I think it was just to represt the free peoples of ME. It was Elrond who chose the member of the Company, not Gandalf, and I doubt that Gandalf confided his plans with anyone, even Elrond.

2) In the morning after the wolf-attack the narration goes:

Is this the lingering evil influence of the Caradhras, or could it be the power of Sauron, seeking to locate the Ring? It would imply Sauron had quite a long reach indeed, not to mention some power over the elements. A force to be reckoned with, even without his Ring on his hand. Interestingly (and here I’m running slightly ahead) these changes in weather and such don’t seem to return after the Fellowship’s journey through the Moria-mines. Would Gandalf’s plan to hide their trail underground have been succesful, even despite the fight with the Balrog and the orcs?
I personally thought the mountain was acting of it's own accord as the snow seemed to stop as they were leaving the mountain and it would have taken a while for them to find this out, and the affect was almost instantaneous(sp.).

3) The Watcher in the Water forcefully closes the Gatedoors of Moria when its plan to grab Frodo failed. Would it have been under Sauron’s command or perhaps under that of the Balrog? Is it a coincidence that-since it failed to get Frodo- it therefore locked up the entire Fellowship in the Mines? And just how intelligent do you think the Watcher is?
I thought it was acting of it's own accord. It was in deep water and I don't think the Balrog would have ventured out of Moria, so I very much doubt it was acting under the Balrog.I'm not sure about Sauron.

4) Frodo finds out in the mines that his night-sight has improved and ascribes it to the wound he received from the Ringwraiths. He also think something might be following them. We later learn what it was, but what did you think it was, the first time you read LoTR? Do you still remember? My first time around I thought it had merely been Frodo’s imagination.
I, like Artanis, can't remeber what it was, but I know I didn't think it was what it was until Lorien.

[Olmer]

Nice summory, Earniel!
And also a very good idea to include such visual elements as paintings of Alan Lee and Ted Nasmith.


And we get a glimpse of what Moria had been in its golden age through Gimli’s marvellous song, which goes to show that in each of these small grumpy men, there’s a poet waiting to get out.
I love this expression! :)

Would Gandalf have specifically wanted a Dwarf to join the Fellowship because of Dwarves’ innate skills in mines and not just to represent all the Free People of Middle-earth?
It was imo of vital importance that all the free people of Middle-Earth had their representative in the company. To me it has a symbolic meaning, much in the same way as with Eärendil...
Gandalf had nothing to do with Gimli’s inclusion. The whole decision of who will be in the Fellowship was Elrond’s. I think that it was nothing symbolic in this particular company of the free people of M.E.
If the whole quest supposed to be secret, what kind of the “vital importance” is in representation of the free folk in the midst of deserted places? A symbolic meaning for WHOM?
If Earendil went to the West as a speaker for Elves and Men, with WHOM this “representatives” supposed to speak, if the original aim was to go as unnoticed as possible straight to Mordor? With Sauron?

They were the representatives, all right, but their role was different than a nonsensical symbolism. The whole issue of the Fellowship came up because of the fast traveling news.
If Elrond says that he did not summon them, then all representatives from other free folk unexpectedly turned up just in the most inconvenient moment. And they already has been informed that the Ring is not just a custom jewelry ( Denetor knew and the Dwarves also , and I don't think that Elrond kept Legolas, man of his kindred, it the dark about the ring).
The ring couldn't be kept in secrecy - too many people knew about it. But such matter pose a dilemma: the Dwarves, the Elves, and especially the Men can’t be allowed to get close to the Ring. Fight would begin at once! So Elrond was compelled to include an observers from other races, knowing that they were biased against each other, to insure that the Ring stays in the hobbit’s hands.

The Watcher in the Water forcefully closes the Gatedoors of Moria when its plan to grab Frodo failed. Would it have been under Sauron’s command or perhaps under that of the Balrog?
I don’t think that the Watcher was in the league with Sauron or Balrog.There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in a league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. But I think that it has been drawn by the Ring, which was exerting a pull towards more powerful potential ring-bearer, and this why this creature went straight after Frodo-the carrier of the Ring.

Lastily, in the previous discussions about Moria I mentioned that orcs of the Moria has been living by different rules than orcs of Mordor. The description of Balin’s tomb gives a quite interesting picture: in the ravaged despoiled place ”The light of the shaft fell directly on a table in the middle of the room: a single oblong block, about two feet high, upon which was laid a great slab of white stone…On the slab runes was deeply graven…” Notice that it’s not broken by hammer’s blows, not defaced with scrapes, mud or demeaning symbols. Actually, it only lacks of fresh flowers... :) This interesting tidbit, pointing that this Moria’s dwellers had some value and at least a respect for the dead. :D

[Artanis]

Gandalf had nothing to do with Gimli’s inclusion. The whole decision of who will be in the Fellowship was Elrond’s.I agree that Elrond had the last word. But I also think he would listen to the recommendations and advices of Gandalf and of certain other people of his household. He did give in to Gandalf's advice of allowing in Merry and Pip.
If the whole quest supposed to be secret, what kind of the “vital importance” is in representation of the free folk in the midst of deserted places? A symbolic meaning for WHOM?
If Earendil went to the West as a speaker for Elves and Men, with WHOM this “representatives” supposed to speak, if the original aim was to go as unnoticed as possible straight to Mordor? With Sauron?Well I'm not sure about you Olmer, do you really not understand what I'm talking about, or do you just like to debate for the sake of debate? This is how I see it: LotR is written as a fantasy story, with the characteristica that you find also in fairy tales. There are certain underlying premises to this story: The world is created by Eru, the One, and is now governed by the 'Gods', the Valar. Eärendil was allowed into the West, and the Valar listened to him because he spoke for both Elves and Men. But I don't want to say much about this, it is outside the scope of this discussion. But it is clear that Middle-Earth is a place where good and evil forces are in battle, and also a place where angelic beings live among the people, a place where 'magic' and dreams are playing a significant role. In this context I think it is most fitting that the task of overthrowing Sauron should be accomplished by the gathered efforts of a company representing all free folk in Middle-Earth. I think the task may not have succeeded if this had not been taken into account. Because that is how things are. I cannot say it in other words. :) I also think it is beautiful. And I at least read symbolism in it. :)
... nonsensical symbolism ...I don't think that was a nice thing to say. :(

[Durin1]

I don't think that was a nice thing to say. :(

It does sound a bit insulting. I think we should all except that people have different opinions, but that doesn't mean you should dismiss their thoughts in such a haphazard way.

I loved Gimli's song too. It gives a rare glimpse of the splendour and might of Khazad-Dum during its heydays. It also points to ancient history that preceded the Coming of Men. It shows just how ancient the Dwarven race would have been.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Lastily, in the previous discussions about Moria I mentioned that orcs of the Moria has been living by different rules than orcs of Mordor. The description of Balin’s tomb gives a quite interesting picture: in the ravaged despoiled place ”The light of the shaft fell directly on a table in the middle of the room: a single oblong block, about two feet high, upon which was laid a great slab of white stone…On the slab runes was deeply graven…” Notice that it’s not broken by hammer’s blows, not defaced with scrapes, mud or demeaning symbols. Actually, it only lacks of fresh flowers... :) This interesting tidbit, pointing that this Moria’s dwellers had some value and at least a respect for the dead. :D
that is an interesting thought, i had never thouht of that before, but it does make sense, unless the mines/living areas of the orcs were so far underground that they did not venture up to the halls very often, and only did so this time because of that 'fool-of-a-took', throwing his stone in.

[Earniel]

I had an idea, during my first reading, that it could have been something on the same lines of nazgul, obviously unfounded!
Heheh, it was at least a more original idea than mine. :)

Gandalf appears to know a lot about Moria and its rooms and divisions and levels and all that so much so that he led the Fellowship through it. What has Gimli done? Next to nothing...
Hm, I disagree that Gimli did next to nothing. Gandalf did consult him from time to time in the Mines. Even if Gandalf had the last word on which direction they would follow, it does not say that Gimli's advice was unheeded or unnecesary. Gimli's eagerness to enter the mines would also have provided Gandalf with some of the necesary support he needed to convince the rest of the Fellowship to chose for the mines.

Interesting observation about the weather Eärniel. I always get a feeling of determinism when I read the chapters from where the company set out from Imladris. Everything that happen seem to lead the company into one predetermined course: into Moria.
So you'd say that the way the weather behaved was because it was meant to be that the Fellowship entered the Mines, and not due to more wordly forces like Sauron or Saruman. I like the idea. It would imply Gandalf was indeed meant to take out the Balrog, maybe to releave the world from a danger that could eventually take Sauron's place as dark lord in the Fourth Age. But then I'm running ahead again. (It's not easy splitting up the events in Moria according to the way they were split in chapters.)


This is all speculations on my part, but I guess the Watcher was operating on its own, probably not aware of the company before they crossed that creek, and later were roused again by the pebble thrown into the water. It was probably also drawn by the evil power of the Ring, I don't think it was a coincidence that it was Frodo who was grabbed first.
I was thinking along the same lines. I was entertaining thoughts of the Watcher with the Ring in his dark lake -provided he had succeeded in grabbing Frodo- wondering what he should do with it. I wonder, would the Ring have grown large enough to fit on a tentacle of the Watcher? :D

I have read the book too many times to remember what I thought about these sounds at the very first reading. But I do know that I did not think of what it later turned out to be. :) Was that last sentence intelligible? :D
Heheh, yes it was understandable. :D

I think it was just to represt the free peoples of ME. It was Elrond who chose the member of the Company, not Gandalf, and I doubt that Gandalf confided his plans with anyone, even Elrond.
I doubt Elrond solely chose the members of the Fellowship without some input from Gandalf, after all it was Gandalf who would lead the Fellowship as far as he was able, while Elrond remained in Rivendell.

Lastily, in the previous discussions about Moria I mentioned that orcs of the Moria has been living by different rules than orcs of Mordor. The description of Balin’s tomb gives a quite interesting picture. [...] Notice that it’s not broken by hammer’s blows, not defaced with scrapes, mud or demeaning symbols. Actually, it only lacks of fresh flowers... :) This interesting tidbit, pointing that this Moria’s dwellers had some value and at least a respect for the dead. :D
It's unfortunate in this view that we didn't get a peak of what was in the tomb. Maybe the orcs used it as refriginator to store food! :eek: Surely even orcs know better than to demolish their infrastructure. ;)

[Valandil]

Notice that it’s not broken by hammer’s blows, not defaced with scrapes, mud or demeaning symbols. Actually, it only lacks of fresh flowers... :) This interesting tidbit, pointing that this Moria’s dwellers had some value and at least a respect for the dead. :D

Or maybe they had "Desecrate Balin's Tomb" on their 'TO-DO List'... but just hadn't gotten 'round to it yet?? :confused: :p

[The Gaffer]

Apart from the fireworks, the fight with the wolves is the first time we get to see Gandalf's "magic" at first hand and in earnest. What were your impressions of this first time you read it?

We also have disappearing wolf bodies. What's going with that? Where did they go? What kind of creature do you think they are?

[Forkbeard]

Apart from the fireworks, the fight with the wolves is the first time we get to see Gandalf's "magic" at first hand and in earnest. What were your impressions of this first time you read it?

We also have disappearing wolf bodies. What's going with that? Where did they go? What kind of creature do you think they are?


Great question....well the first time I read it, I immediately thought of the wargs in The Hobbit and the battle after Bilbo's escape. Structurally there is a lot of similarity there.

The bodies thing I've never been quite able to sus out.

[Earniel]

Apart from the fireworks, the fight with the wolves is the first time we get to see Gandalf's "magic" at first hand and in earnest. What were your impressions of this first time you read it?

We also have disappearing wolf bodies. What's going with that? Where did they go? What kind of creature do you think they are?
Darn, why didn't I think of asking that?! :( :p

[Durin1]

I haven't got the book to hand but i think that the Wolves were said to be just phantoms, created by Saruman.

[BeardofPants]

Durin, I always had that idea as well - that Saruman was just playing silly buggers with the fellowship.

[Durin1]

Durin, I always had that idea as well - that Saruman was just playing silly buggers with the fellowship.

And Gandalf states to Gimli (and i know i'm getting ahead of myself here) in the chapter "The White Rider", when talking about the similarities between him and Saruman: that Saruman was able to "manipulate" the minds of others so that they may see "visions" that could make him appear like Gandalf.

I'd probably use this theory to explain the fact that Saruman was able to create these phantoms in the likeness of wolves.

Note how Luthien and Finrod are able to disguise themselves in the forms of werewolves and orcs respectively.

[Forkbeard]

And Gandalf states to Gimli (and i know i'm getting ahead of myself here) in the chapter "The White Rider", when talking about the similarities between him and Saruman: that Saruman was able to "manipulate" the minds of others so that they may see "visions" that could make him appear like Gandalf.

I'd probably use this theory to explain the fact that Saruman was able to create these phantoms in the likeness of wolves.

Note how Luthien and Finrod are able to disguise themselves in the forms of werewolves and orcs respectively.

HMM, but would Gandalf been fooled by Saruman's phantom wolves? They certainly caught on fire real enough, and as I recall they had bodies real enough.

On the other hand, Legolas recovers all his arrows, save one. HMM.

[Earniel]

We also have disappearing wolf bodies. What's going with that? Where did they go? What kind of creature do you think they are?
The first time around I thought the disappearing trick was a character trait of the Middle-earth Wargs. Later I started thinking that these particular pack of Wargs was a sort of spell from which the Warg-leader was the key. When Legolas' fiery arrow killed the leader, the spell 'unraveled' and the attack was broken off. I don't think the other wolves were actually real.

Howevere I never (and still don't) attributed the Warg-attack to Saruman's scheming. Especially not since Gandalf called the Wargleader that appeared the first time "Hound of Sauron", who in his older days was the lord of Werewolves, if I'm not mistaken. Hence I thought these Wargs were a sort of werewolves and were sent out by Sauron to harry people and keep an eye out for the Ring.

[Rían]

Thanks, Eärniel! :) Good summary -

...which goes to show that in each of these small grumpy men, there’s a poet waiting to get out. I like that! :)

An interesting tidbit: When the Fellowship is considering whether to go on or return to Rivendell, Gandalf says: “ The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master’s hand again.” To me, they were already plenty scary! That was a good line.

1) Gandalf states he had considered the possibility of passing through Moria already in the beginning. I wonder whether this would have influenced the addition of Gimli to the Fellowship. Would Gandalf have specifically wanted a Dwarf to join the Fellowship because of Dwarves’ innate skills in mines and not just to represent all the Free People of Middle-earth? Good thought - I bet that definitely had a bit to do with it.

3) The Watcher in the Water forcefully closes the Gatedoors of Moria when its plan to grab Frodo failed. Would it have been under Sauron’s command or perhaps under that of the Balrog? Is it a coincidence that-since it failed to get Frodo- it therefore locked up the entire Fellowship in the Mines? And just how intelligent do you think the Watcher is? I think it was a kind of act of petulance - evil seems to often be petulant. "If they got away from ME, then I'm shutting them up in that place where I know there's some nasty orcs! The NERVE of them throwing a rock in MY waters! I'll show THEM!" I think it's under its own leadership, as the line from Gandalf says, altho I think it would have to bow to Sauron if he showed up.

The mountain was also "petulant" - that last little bit of snow dumped as the fellowship left.

4) Frodo finds out in the mines that his night-sight has improved and ascribes it to the wound he received from the Ringwraiths. He also think something might be following them. We later learn what it was, but what did you think it was, the first time you read LoTR? Do you still remember? My first time around I thought it had merely been Frodo’s imagination. I thought that night-vision line was interesting - and somewhat creepy - makes you think "what is he going to be seeing as we get futher along?" :eek: I don't remember what I thought the following thing was - prob. an orc. Too long and too many readings ago!


Apart from the fireworks, the fight with the wolves is the first time we get to see Gandalf's "magic" at first hand and in earnest. What were your impressions of this first time you read it?

We also have disappearing wolf bodies. What's going with that? Where did they go? What kind of creature do you think they are? I think I read the Hobbit before LOTR (can't even remember THAT now! Too long ago!) and Gandy seems to have a thing with fire and wolves! The disappearing thing kind of confused me - seemed to be one of the few almost "cheats" of the book. It seemed like evil always worked with real things, or illusions - not illusions that were real, if you know what I mean, and this just didn't seem to fit in. But maybe just the one wolf was real, and the others kind of an illusion off of him - that would fit in better - never thought of that before.

[LickTheEnvelope]

1. I believe 'Elrond' set Gimli in the fellowship simply because each race seemed to have it's own strengths and weaknesses. Having to surpass a multitude of obsticles along the way its only natural to think that the group would need expertise in travelling any road.

2. The fact that after they escaped the mines the 'power' had dissipated was pressumably do to poor communication, if indeed this power came from Sarumon or Sauron at all. They may have used up power with the first weather change? Or possibly they beleived the company would be killed by the Wargs, Gate keeper, or orcs/trolls/balrog in Moria.

3. I saw the 'Gate Keeper' creature as being draw to the power of the ring as he went for Frodo first. I don't think he was litteraly "under the control.." of any being, but was probobly placed there with evil intent.

4. I beleive it mentions many times there-after that Gollum had "picked up their trail in the mines of Moria." So that's what I am led to beleive.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

if you pass the doors of Moria: beware!
These were the words spoken by Aragorn to Gandalf before the wolf attack. It also says that Aragorn had passed throught Moria before. Maybe he knew what Durin's Bane was, maybe this was a warning to Gandalf that if he assed through Moria he would meet one of equal strenght to him.

[Fat middle]

I asked this question four or five years ago, but nobody could help me: does anybody know if there is some kind of map of Moria?

I mean, has anybody drawn a map of Moria following the description that Tolkien wrote?

Elanor the Fair was posting some nice maps that I hadn't seen before (like the map of the Prancing Pony), so I was wondering if perhaps there would be also one of Moria.

If not... somebody should draw it :p

[Earniel]

A map of Moria... now that's an interesting notion, although I would deem it quite impossible to make. For one the information in LoTR is only of the corridors, staircases and floors the Fellowship tracked through. The rest of Moria is pretty much undefined. And you'd have to make a map of each level, and Moria has a lot of levels IMO. Still... it'd be interesting to attempt one.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i think most of the levels were fairly similar to one another, though, apart from level 1 of old moria of course

[Lefty Scaevola]

Or maybe they had "Desecrate Balin's Tomb" on their 'TO-DO List'... but just hadn't gotten 'round to it yet?? :confused: :pOr perhaps some minor protective spells or curses had been laid upon it by the dwarves who entombed him.
As for the watcher in the water, and perhaps the cranky spirit of the mountain, I suspect that the Balrog had some control or influence over them. You do not spend spend centuries in close proximity to an awake Balrog without it gaing some sort of effect over you.

[Curubethion]

About the Watcher...I think that it was partly the Balrog, and partly the ring. After all, it chose to grab Frodo, the ringbearer.