Is bringing the Elves to Valinor wrong?

[Beren3000]

This thread was inspired by one of brownjenkins' posts in the "which inflicted more damage" thread. He says that what caused the most damage in the First Age is bringing the Elves to Valinor in the first place. What do you people think? Should the Valar have left the Elves in Middle Earth? How different would ME have been then? Would avoiding the evil of Feanor and all the War of the Jewels be worth the Elves never knowing the bliss of Valinor?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that although bringing the elves to Valinor did eventually cause trouble it wasn't the wrong desicion. Melkor was evil anyway and a lot of resistance was provided from the Noldorin elves. If they hadn't been bought to Valinor then there would have been a chance that Melkor would have seduced them into becoming his servants, then the Firstborn Children of Illuvatar would have possibly been destroyed by the Valar. And Earendiel would not have know of Valinor, so he wouldn't have gone to seek Valinor, which could have resulted in no action from the Valar.

[brownjenkins]

just replied the following in other thread... but best to keep this here :)

I disagree very strongly! You want to move this to another thread? :);)

we had a pretty good thread on this point a while back: the valar (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=9912)

my point at the time: the point (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=318357&postcount=13)

and some textual support: evidence (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=341895&postcount=78)

as i said then... the initial act by the valar to leave middle earth and later let melkor basically have his way with it was questionable... and not really ever satisfactorily justified... at least in my opinion :D

[Beren3000]

But it seems to me that you're discussing whether the Valar were wrong to interefere in the War of the Jewels, whereas the question here is whether it was wrong for them to bring the Elves into Valinor in the first place. Please help me with this misunderstanding.

[brownjenkins]

But it seems to me that you're discussing whether the Valar were wrong to interefere in the War of the Jewels, whereas the question here is whether it was wrong for them to bring the Elves into Valinor in the first place. Please help me with this misunderstanding.

in the thread i referred to i was thinking big picture... which kind of ties in with the idea of bringing the elves to valinor... if they took on melkor from day one, and stuck with his imprisonment when they got 'em... the concept of valinor would be 'moot... the valar would still inhabit the whole middle earth

this is idea has a basis in tolkien's early works on the matter... and was never really reconciled later... they made the first mistake, so they bear some of the responsibility for all that followed

the "root of all evil" is melkor... and they let him hang around much too long... eventually they realized their error and took him out for good, but much damage was done because they put it off for so long... sure they had their reasons... but they were somewhat suspect

[Wayfarer]

I don't think there's much room for discussion on this topic. The Valar were clearly in error when they retreated and let Melkor have 90% of Middle Earth, and in doing so they had failed their duties as stewards.

Tolkien himself implies on at least one occassion that the Valar shouldn't have brought the elves to Valinor. The elves were Children of Eru, and were meant to inhabit Middle Earth just as Men were. The fact that many, perhaps even most, of the elves were strongly reluctant to leave only supports this.

By brining the Elves to Valinor, the Valar were attempting to keep the lesser children for themselves, much the same way a young child might become possessive of a pet. This is well in line with their previous actions, where they attempt to hoard all that is good in Middle Earth for themselves and shut out the rest of the world. This is done throughout the history of ME, and it provides some very good reasons for Men to be resentful, which is why Sauron is able to so easily corrupt the Numenoreans.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

whether it was right or wrong, both ill and good resulted from it.
if a decision seems wrong, then you must look at the consequences
to decide if it is truly wrong.

[Beren3000]

To brownjenkins,
I see your point now. I base my argument on the fact that it was GOOD for the Elves to have seen the bliss of Valinor, but you base it on the fact that it was better for ME that the Valar had intervened sooner. Well, the Elves would certainly agree with me, and Eru with you, so...I guess you win :D

[Wayfarer]

Beren: It may have been good for the elves to have seen the bliss of valinor, but was it good for Middle Earth, as a whole, for valinor to have been so blissful?

I believe that Illuvatar's original intent was for the Ainur in Middle Earth to occupy themselves with making the world blissful. When they sequestered themselves away in Valinor, and concentrated their efforts there, they were selfishly denying the rest of Middle Earth its fair share of that goodness. When the elves went to Valinor, what they were really seeing is the bliss that was meant to have been spread all over middle earth, but had been hoarded away. I think that's wrong.

All the Ainur, and the Elves, Men, and Dwarves, should have shared the world and cooperated in making it a good place to live. The Vala, by backing out and letting Melkor take most of it, made that nearly impossible.

[Attalus]

I agree that the Valar seem rather selfish to keep the Eldar around, going so far as forbidding them to leave. No wonder Galadriel left, anyway.

[Ælfwine]

By bringing the Elves to Valinor, the Valar (or at least the majority of them) forgot about most of Arda, not only Middle-earth. OK, they had Melkor under control at the moment, and perhaps they thought that things would remain so forever, I don't know.
the Elves most certainly gained from this, but is it really certain that the Valar could not have come to Cuivienen instead, and teach the Elves there?
And if they had done that instead, wouldn't all Elves have benefited from that?

[brownjenkins]

To brownjenkins,
I see your point now. I base my argument on the fact that it was GOOD for the Elves to have seen the bliss of Valinor, but you base it on the fact that it was better for ME that the Valar had intervened sooner. Well, the Elves would certainly agree with me, and Eru with you, so...I guess you win :D

it's a tough call... i tend to take the pov that everything that happened in ME was somewhat "intended" by eru... he knew what melkor was about, yet still decided to send him to arda

i think he wanted his children to grow by experiencing both good and evil, as opposed to just creating a paradise... so i don't really fault the valar, or melkor for that matter... they were playing their intended roles

[Durin1]

"So it is Doomed". Mandos' words when the Valar make the decision to bring the Elves to Aman.

Does Manwe's "communicating" with Iluvatar occur when they consider the decison to bring the Elves to Aman? I haven't got the book to confer.

Why would Ulmo (the next most powerful Vala after Melkor and manwe) argue against the choice?

[Beren3000]

Why would Ulmo (the next most powerful Vala after Melkor and manwe) argue against the choice?
Interesting point. Probably because ME was his (Ulmo's) real domain, and in Aman, the Elves (at least most of them) didn't come into much contact with the Sea.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe he was more perceptive than the other Valar. For it was only Ulmo and Tulkas who didn't trust Malkor, after he had been released from the Halls of Mandos and been pardoned by Manwe.

[Radagast The Brown]

I agree, Telcontar - I don't think it has anything to do with Ulmo's will to have the Elves near the sea. I think he could forsee the problems in bringing the Elves to Valinor, and thought Middle Earth was created for them by Eru... which was true. I still don't think the Elves were supposed to live in Valinor forever. I can't see how many dangers they'd have in Middle Earth - most of the armies of Melkor were either destroyed or hidden.

[Pytt]

what you say make sense telcontar and radagast. i don't think the elves should have been taken to Valinor. they were supposed to live in ME as eru's children, like someone have said before in this post.

[Beren3000]

But (to all of you guys), if you think in terms of the underlying symbolism in the Sil., your point is like saying Adam and Eve were not meant to see Eden...

[Durin1]

So is there a conflict between what the Valar desire and what Iluvatar had in mind? It seems to me that it couldn't have been all that clear-cut if there was some dissentions amongst the Ainur.

I'm personally of the opinion that the Ainur desired the coming of the Elves to Valinor for their own, selfish reasons. I cannot comprehend the logic in wanting Children of ME to live in an earthly "paradise", for all they knew, forever. What would have been the point of that??? :confused:

There are many references during the Great Journey of the elves tarrying on the road and many turning away from the path (allbeit predominantly the Teleri). Wouldn't this have said something to the Valar?

And what about the Avari? They are treated almost as second-class Elves because they fell in love with ME.

[Ælfwine]

But (to all of you guys), if you think in terms of the underlying symbolism in the Sil., your point is like saying Adam and Eve were not meant to see Eden...
But is not the underlying symbolism also so 'open' that the Valar can be said to represent Adam & Eve?
Or perhaps the three leaders that were brought to Valinor in the first place?
Or perhaps Thingol & Melian represented Adam & Eve?
Or Beren & Lúthien?

[Beren3000]

But Valinor is obviously paradise, and the Elves were the ones who "fell" from it. So they must at least have some connection to Adam and Eve.

[Durin1]

But Adam and Eve is just a story and their circumstances were different to the Elves. I'm not a christian but weren't Adam and Eve supposed to be born in the Garden of Eden? If you take the symbolism so broadly [and don't forget Fall (in its broad context) etc is not the exclusive preserve of Christianity] you can almost say that Cuivienen was the earthly paradise of the firstborn elves.

[Wayfarer]

Beren3000, you miss some very important points.

First of all, the Noldor leaving Valinor != Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden.

Adam and Ever 'fell' and were kicked out of paradise because of their mistake. The Noldor made a conscious choice to leave Valinor because they no longer trusted the good intentions of the Valar. Completely different situations.

In fact, more broadly, Valinor != Eden.

Eden was created by God (Eru), as a place for Adam and Eve to live. Valinor was created by the Valar as a place for themselves to live. Eden was the 'best' spot in a world that was already 'good'. Valinor was the only good spot in a world that had been thrown to the dogs.

Manwe himself says:
"This is the counsel of Iluvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor."

Take up again the mastery of Arda. When they first entered the World, Eru made them masters of it, and intrusted it to their care. They had abandoned that mastery, and here had the chance to reclaim it - but they ultimately failed to do that.

Iluvatar's intention was the the Valar be stewards of Arda, to care for it and enrich it. They had abandoned that task, and left the greater part of the world to Melkor, while hiding themselves away in one small corner of the world. Now that the elves have arrived, it is time for them to take back Middle Earth and make it safe for the elves. They make good progress on this, and capture Melkor, but then they retreat again. In their selfishness, they desired to have the elves for themselves rather than expend the effort it would have taken to keep Middle Earth safe so the elves could live as their creator intended.

Most damning of all is this:
At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the Powers in the light of the Trees for ever; and Mandos broke his silence, saying 'So it is doomed.' From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell.

In the end, I believe that not only were the Valar wrong to bring the elves to Valinor, I believe it was a grave mistake for them to create Valinor in the first place. It was a short-sighted, selfish, and careless decision on their part.

[Beren3000]

But, Wayfarer, there's another point in favor of the Valinor-Eden parallel:
After the Noldor made the conscious choice to leave Valinor, Mandos forbade them to return and cursed them and then Valinor was hidden, just as Eden was guarded by 2 angels carrying swords of fire, preventing anyone from entering. PLUS, you might say that Adam and Eve made a conscious choice in eating off the Tree of Knowledge, as God Had already warned them against that. But an argument along these lines is best left to the Theology thread, I guess.

From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell.
As to that, don't you think that the Noldor, left in ME by themselves wouldn't have made that kind of woe? And even if the Valar had left the Noldor in ME and waged the War of Wrath from the get-go, wouldn't that have cost ME much of the beauty it afterwards had? Earendil's star, for one?

[Wayfarer]

As to that, don't you think that the Noldor, left in ME by themselves wouldn't have made that kind of woe? And even if the Valar had left the Noldor in ME and waged the War of Wrath from the get-go, wouldn't that have cost ME much of the beauty it afterwards had? Earendil's star, for one?

No. No I don't think that.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But, Wayfarer, there's another point in favor of the Valinor-Eden parallel:
After the Noldor made the conscious choice to leave Valinor, Mandos forbade them to return and cursed them and then Valinor was hidden, just as Eden was guarded by 2 angels carrying swords of fire, preventing anyone from entering. PLUS, you might say that Adam and Eve made a conscious choice in eating off the Tree of Knowledge, as God Had already warned them against that. But an argument along these lines is best left to the Theology thread, I guess.
The snake of Eden could be compared to Melkor in that way. He twisted the words of God/The Valar, making out that it was fine to do what God/Eru (or the Valar) had forbade. It was throught the sankes words that Adam and Eve ate the apples of the Tree of Knowledge and throught the words and deeds of Melkor that Feanor took up arms and persuaded the Noldor to leave Valonor.

[Beren3000]

No. No I don't think that.
And why, might I ask? :)

The snake of Eden could be compared to Melkor in that way. He twisted the words of God/The Valar, making out that it was fine to do what God/Eru (or the Valar) had forbade. It was throught the sankes words that Adam and Eve ate the apples of the Tree of Knowledge and throught the words and deeds of Melkor that Feanor took up arms and persuaded the Noldor to leave Valonor.
You're speaking my language! :D

[Wayfarer]

Why don't I think the Eldar staying in Middle Earth would have been just as bad as them going to Valinor? Because the woes which occured during the first age proceeded directly from the Valars decision to bring them to Valinor. Furthermore, had they stayed in Middle Earth, the Valar might have been forced to do their job and work to minimize Melkor's influence. Furthermore, the elves themselves, if they had remained in Middle Earth, would have been able to keep the evil in check (much as men did in later ages). Just saying 'it would have been just as bad the other way' is a shoddy excuse for an argument.

And again, with the 'Melkor=Snake' analogy you're completely missing the point that Valinor and Eden were essentially different.

The Serpent in Eden convinced Eve that she shouldn't care whether or not she had God's permission to eat the fruit.
Melkor in Valinor convinced Feanor that the Valar didn't nescissarily have the best interests of the Elves in mind. The real kicker here is that by all accounts Melkor was telling the truth - the reasons for bringing the Elves to Valinor were selfish. Feanor left because the Valar's actions bore out what Melkor had told him.

Oh! And happy birthday yesterday, Beren. :p

[Durin1]

I agree with you Wayfarer. It was an ill-fated decision to bring the Elves to Aman. ME was their natural homes and by enamouring 3 members of the elvish clans to the "light of Valinor", the Valar caused an irreparable seperation between Eldar and Avari. Who wouldn't want to live in "paradise" if they were given the choice. Indeed, some elves did not desire to leave, many who went on the journey deviated or tarried. The Valar, after the discontent of the Noldor state that the Noldor are free to depart as they were free to come to Valinor. But was that really an option once they were totally enamoured?

If the War of the Powers had achieved its objective of freeing ME from the encroachment of Melkor, then surely they would have set the stage for the different elves to combine their talents to make ME a fairer place?

Of course, much in the way that Sauron does with the elves of Eregion during the Second Age (not to mention the Numenoreans), Melkor plants lies which have grains of truth. The Noldor would never have left Aman if they didn't, subconciously, desire to return to ME and meet their Kin again. Also, they themselves begin to question the Valar's decision to bring them to Aman because it served their own, selfish purposes. Sure, they increased in wisdom and power, but they were also alienated from other, potential Incarnates of ME. Nobody likes to feel restricted, whether forced to or out of desire. And it was this feeling of subjugation that Melkor exploited by stealing the Silmarils after he had sown his "half-lies".

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I disagree. Feanor left because the Silmaril's had been stolen from him. That is the main and essential reason. Melkor may have been telling the bare essentials to the truth, but he twisted it and manipulated to tell Feanor what he wanted Feanor to hear. Feanor may also have left because of Melkor slaying his father and as he was a proud elf he didn't like being tricked and manipulated.

[Durin1]

I disagree. Feanor left because the Silmaril's had been stolen from him. That is the main and essential reason. Melkor may have been telling the bare essentials to the truth, but he twisted it and manipulated to tell Feanor what he wanted Feanor to hear. Feanor may also have left because of Melkor slaying his father and as he was a proud elf he didn't like being tricked and manipulated.

Feanor may have had his own selfish reasons to retreive the Silmarils, but that doesn't explain why there was such a willingness on the part of the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin to follow him. Of course many were reluctant (Finarfin being a classic example) but the vast majority must have desired to see the "wide lands of ME", otherwise they could just have said no, regardless of extreme clan loyalty. Fingon, Turgon, Finrod and Galadriel (amongst others) wanted to explore these wide lands and set up realms there. Especially in the case of Finrod and Galadriel, were they so totally decieved by Melkor? I don't believe they were. I think they were following what their hearts must have desired for a long time.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not a long time. It say's in The Sil (I'm not sure I don't have thee book with me at the moment) that Feanor's words stirred something in Galadriels heart. That she desired to have lands of her own to rule. If somethings stirs in your heart I doubt it would mean that it was something you had been constanly wishing for over a period of time.

[Beren3000]

Furthermore, had they stayed in Middle Earth, the Valar might have been forced to do their job and work to minimize Melkor's influence.
But if they were as selfish as you describe them, wouldn't they rather shrug it off and say that the Elves "had it coming" for refusing to come to Valinor; and after that they would shut themselves in Valinor forever, and to hell with ME?
Furthermore, the elves themselves, if they had remained in Middle Earth, would have been able to keep the evil in check
Slim chances of that happening, IMO. If Morgoth could influence their minds in Valinor (the land of bliss), surely he could have tempted them in ME. Simply look at what Sauron did with the Elves in Eregion: Elves are vulnerable to evil (at least hot-headed ones like Fëanor :D)
the reasons for bringing the Elves to Valinor were selfish. Feanor left because the Valar's actions bore out what Melkor had told him.
But isn't that just what Melkor wanted? He knew that the Valar wouldn't want Fëanor running after the Sil's because they probably saw in the Music what will come of THAT, so Melkor knew the Valar's reaction beforehand and just "paraphrased" it if you will so that it would seem to Fëanor as betrayal on their part.
Oh! And happy birthday yesterday, Beren.
Thanks, buddy :)

[Beren3000]

but the vast majority must have desired to see the "wide lands of ME", otherwise they could just have said no, regardless of extreme clan loyalty.
I beg to differ! It says in the Sil.(like TD stated) that Fëanor's words touched them (especially the younger, more impressionable ones like Finarfin's sons). If they really desired to see ME as you say, why hadn't they done so, before? Surely they could've asked leave of the Valar. They were just caught up in the heat of the moment; and indeed, many of them retreat to Valinor when they hear the Doom of Mandos.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But we forget that it was only the Noldor, and not all of them that left Valinor. Ingwe's and Olwe's folk stayed in Valinor and Tol Eressea respectivly.

[Radagast The Brown]

I beg to differ! It says in the Sil.(like TD stated) that Fëanor's words touched them (especially the younger, more impressionable ones like Finarfin's sons). If they really desired to see ME as you say, why hadn't they done so, before? Surely they could've asked leave of the Valar. They were just caught up in the heat of the moment; and indeed, many of them retreat to Valinor when they hear the Doom of Mandos.Actually... it's said that Galadriel, Fingon, Angrod and Eignor (sons of Finarfin) wanted to leave Valinor not to have revenge with Morgoth - but to see the wide lands and rule a kingdom. They only thought about it from Feanor's speech, yes - as he was talking about those lands.

[Durin1]

But why should it "touch them" if they had no such tendencies before-hand? Galadriel despised Feanor but listened to him because he (Feanor) knew that he would be exploiting a certain chord within the Noldor.

The folk of Ingwe are just isolationist puppets of the Valar; The Teleri of Alqualonde are also just isolationsists. They were happy to just continue to "be".

During his speech to the Noldor, Feanor pertains to the fact that the Noldor, in their ignorance and folly, forsook the elves that had stayed in ME. Maybe he was just saying so to pick up a couple of more votes, but this too may have been a factor.

[Beren3000]

So how about this new way to look at it:
The decision to bring Elves into Valinor IN ITSELF was not wrong. But because of the Elves' shortcomings, some of them stayed back in ME and thus the Elves were divided. This created the estrangement between them. Afterwards, the Valar learn that a Great Journey where ALL of the people involved would actually go along to Valinor is just not possible, so they decide not to bring Men into Valinor, and the rest is history...

[Pytt]

Exelent, Beren! an exelent short rewiev of it.

[Wayfarer]

Yeah. That's a possible way of looking at it. There's one major failure in your reasoning, though.

You assume that 'wanting to stay in middle earth' is a shortcoming of the elves, and that it was the Avari's fault. That directly counteracts the textual evidence.

Another interesting point to bring up is that the Avari called themselves 'Avari' - Forsaken. That would certainly seem to imply that they, at least, felt they had been abandoned by the Powers.

Another way to look at it would be this:

Inviting the Elves to Valinor was not entirely wrong. But the creation of Valinor itself was a mistake, and abandoning the rest of Middle Earth was clearly wrong on behalf of the Valar.

If they weren't going to do their job, they should have at least stopped at preventing the Children of Eru from being able to live as their creator intended.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So how about this new way to look at it:
The decision to bring Elves into Valinor IN ITSELF was not wrong. But because of the Elves' shortcomings, some of them stayed back in ME and thus the Elves were divided. This created the estrangement between them. Afterwards, the Valar learn that a Great Journey where ALL of the people involved would actually go along to Valinor is just not possible, so they decide not to bring Men into Valinor, and the rest is history...
Great short summary but I disagree with you on one thing. You said 'Afterwards, the Valar learn that a Great Journey where ALL of the people involved would actually go along to Valinor is just not possible, so they decide not to bring Men into Valinor.' I disagree with this. Valinor was a land of no death. Men were mortal and doomed to die. This I think is why men never went to Valinor.

[Beren3000]

Men were mortal and doomed to die. This I think is why men never went to Valinor.
Yeah, I think you're probably right. That's why they imposed on the Numenoreans the Ban of the Valar. But, IMO, the Valar imposed that Ban ALSO in order not to have the scenario with the Noldor repeated.

[Durin1]

So how about this new way to look at it:
The decision to bring Elves into Valinor IN ITSELF was not wrong. But because of the Elves' shortcomings, some of them stayed back in ME and thus the Elves were divided. This created the estrangement between them. Afterwards, the Valar learn that a Great Journey where ALL of the people involved would actually go along to Valinor is just not possible, so they decide not to bring Men into Valinor, and the rest is history...

Firstly, Tolkien himself, in Morgoth's Ring, states that fundamentally the decision by the Valar to bring the Elves to Aman was a mistake (there's also a short essay where Eru is speaking to Manwe and points this out).

Secondly, what shortcomings? The Elves had every right to do what they wanted. It wasn't a summons as such, it was an offer.

The decision for not bringing Men to Aman has nothing to do with the Great Journey. Men were to be the dominant race (eventually) in ME, as heard in parts during the Music. Also, Melkor Morgoth had been released from captivity before Men awoke and had slain the two trees and returned back to ME, which again was becoming a dangerous place. They would have had no intention of bringing Men to Aman.

[Manveru]

Hey guys,
I don't think the Valar were doing there jobs at all. Maybe in the beginning but they only interfered in ME when there were huge problems. They didn't really take thought for the future. When they captured Melkor before the coming of the elves they didn't search his fortress and get all of Melkor's servants. And after they defeated Melkor and thrust him into the void they let Melkor's man allies go into the east and corrupt all of the neutral men.
But anyway, I think instead bringing the elves to Valinor they could have encouraged them to live along the coasts of Beleriand and visit them often to make sure that when Melkor was set free he wouldn't corrupt them. This way Elves and Valar could have worked together to make ME better, and prepare it for the coming of Men.

[Ælfwine]

Another way to look at it would be this:

Inviting the Elves to Valinor was not entirely wrong. But the creation of Valinor itself was a mistake, and abandoning the rest of Middle Earth was clearly wrong on behalf of the Valar.

If they weren't going to do their job, they should have at least stopped at preventing the Children of Eru from being able to live as their creator intended.
This I can agree with, but also as Durin1 stated:
Firstly, Tolkien himself, in Morgoth's Ring, states that fundamentally the decision by the Valar to bring the Elves to Aman was a mistake (there's also a short essay where Eru is speaking to Manwe and points this out).
So IMO, the bottom line is that the Valar forgot about their responsibility for the whole of Arda, and became too focused on their own well-being. And later on, their "feelings was so hurt" that they left Middle-earth to Melkor/Morgoth, which as Durin1 said Ilúvatar told Manwë.

[Valandil]

So IMO, the bottom line is that the Valar forgot about their responsibility for the whole of Arda, and became too focused on their own well-being. And later on, their "feelings was so hurt" that they left Middle-earth to Melkor/Morgoth, which as Durin1 said Ilúvatar told Manwë.

Kinda like what I always say:

"If you wanna be a god, you better start actin' like it!" :p ;)

[Ælfwine]

I've tried acting like one for ages, but I am still not one.. :( :p

[Durin1]

I think i'm a god :D

On a serious note:

Perhaps the Valar failed slightly in their faith in Iluvatar. I haven't got the bok to hand but, in Morgoth's Ring, doesn't Iluvatar admonish Manwe because they failed to put enough faith in his (and their own) powers to ensure that whatever happended, Iluvatar would not let Melkor's destructive nature destroy His habitation for His Children?

[Ælfwine]

Yes, I think it is in Laws and Customs among the Eldar. I don't have the book handy at the moment either, or I could give you the right quote. :(

[Sister Golden Hair]

Where does Iluvatar's culpability come in to play in all this? Only he was responsible for the creation and time of awakening of the Firstborn. Perhaps had he and the Valar taken care of business before their awakening, ME would have been a suitable dwelling and the Valar would have had no need to fear for the Elves and their safety and therefore there would have been no need to invite them to Valinor. Perhaps Iluvatar's timing on their awakening was bad. They were born into too many already existing messes that the Powers should have cleaned up before they awoke.

[Durin1]

Where does Iluvatar's culpability come in to play in all this? Only he was responsible for the creation and time of awakening of the Firstborn. Perhaps had he and the Valar taken care of business before their awakening, ME would have been a suitable dwelling and the Valar would have had no need to fear for the Elves and their safety and therefore there would have been no need to invite them to Valinor. Perhaps Iluvatar's timing on their awakening was bad. They were born into too many already existing messes that the Powers should have cleaned up before they awoke.

That's one perspective that I hadn't thought of! Although here's my thoughts on this:

Iluvatar brings into being the results of the Music. He then empowers the Valar to prepare and govern Arda in readiness for the Children. He does not directly play a part in the world until the drowning of Numenor (in the physical sense), if I recall. Hence, it is upto the Valar, not Iluvatar himself to "take care of business".

Also, many ages pass between the making of the world, its fashioning and the strifes between Melkor and the other Valar (throwing down of the lamps, moving from Almaren etc etc, not to mention all the "quiet" periods. So how could it be bad timing? The Valar should have made war upon Melkor sooner (so says Iluvatar) and they shouldn't have brought them to Valinor: as Iluvatar had intended for them to live in the lands of their awakening. A few times in the Sil we have hints that the Valar anticipate the awakening of the Elves, and yet they still delay. How could Iluvatar be culpable for that? :confused:

The Valar not only wanted to protect the Elves, they wanted to "enjoy" their company. The fact that Melkor had been captured should have also provided the Valar the impetus to provide some sort of protection for the elves living in the lands of their birth.

BTW, Iluvatar's culpability could infer too broad a context. It'll probably involve theological dicussions of the origins of evil etc etc!

[Sister Golden Hair]

That's one perspective that I hadn't thought of! Although here's my thoughts on this:

Iluvatar brings into being the results of the Music. He then empowers the Valar to prepare and govern Arda in readiness for the Children. He does not directly play a part in the world until the drowning of Numenor (in the physical sense), if I recall. Hence, it is upto the Valar, not Iluvatar himself to "take care of business".Perhaps culpability isn't the right word. I don't see though where Iluvatar is blameless in all this. He does bring into being the results of the Music, and he does empower the Valar to prepare Arda in readiness for the coming of the Children. However, the vision is incomplete and Iluvatar chose for the Valar not to know all.

From the Silmarillion, Ainulindale, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977:

And many other things Iluvatar spoke to the Ainur at that time, and because of their memory of his words, and the knowledge that each has of the music that he himself made, the Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few thing are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor in taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there comes forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past. And so it was that as this vision of the World was played before them, the Ainur saw that it contained things which they had not thought. And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselve in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making. Therefore, when they beheld them, the more did they love them, being things other than themselves, strange and free, wherein they saw the mind of Iluvatar reflected anew, and learned yet a little more of his wisdom, which otherwise had been hidden even from the Ainur.

Originally posted by Durin1

Also, many ages pass between the making of the world, its fashioning and the strifes between Melkor and the other Valar (throwing down of the lamps, moving from Almaren etc etc, not to mention all the "quiet" periods. So how could it be bad timing? The Valar should have made war upon Melkor sooner (so says Iluvatar) and they shouldn't have brought them to Valinor: as Iluvatar had intended for them to live in the lands of their awakening. A few times in the Sil we have hints that the Valar anticipate the awakening of the Elves, and yet they still delay. How could Iluvatar be culpable for that? :confused: Iluvatar chose not to intervene. It just seems somewhat that the Valar were confused as to what they could and could not do, or what they should do. Iluvatar was aware of the struggle between Melkor and the other Valar.

From Ainulindale:

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: "seeist thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethopught him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destryed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools.

Originally posted by Durin1

The Valar not only wanted to protect the Elves, they wanted to "enjoy" their company. The fact that Melkor had been captured should have also provided the Valar the impetus to provide some sort of protection for the elves living in the lands of their birth.Middle-earth had become severely damaged and dangerous. The Valar were spent in trying to repair its hurts. Therefore, their solution to protecting the Elves was to summon them to Valinor.