William Shakespeare

[PippinTook]

Do any of your guys like Shakespeare? It's kind of hard not to. What plays have you read? Which is your favorite and why?

I've read (so far, but many more to come)
Julius Caesar
A Midsummer Night's Dream
Twelfth Night
Taming of the Shrew
As You Like It
Romeo and Juliet

My favorites are definately Twelfth Night and A Midsummer Night's Dream. I love the comedies, and I adore Sir Andrew and Sir Toby. I had two fish named Andrew and Toby, but I had to give them away because we moved. I'm actually not quite finished with Romeo and Juliet, which I have liked but not as much as the others. It's really rather frustrating.

Anywho, I love Shakespeare, how about you?

[Count Comfect]

Will is definitely the best - read over 20 of the plays so far, which would make a long list now. But I do believe the Bard of Avon thread is still extant for discussing that, although I don't think it's been posted in since August.

[Beren3000]

I haven't read any of his "popular" plays, but I love the ones I've read so far:

Henry VI (all three parts)
Richard III
Titus Andronicus
The Comedy of Errors (currently reading it)

My favorite has to be Richard III, there's this monologue that Richard says near the end of the play that is just BEAUTIFUL!

[brownjenkins]

i've taken a few courses and read all of his plays... i have many favorites... but my top few are probably macbeth, othello, the tempest, measure for measure, twelfth night and as you like it

[Fat middle]

I ran a messagge board about Shakespeare some years ago with another mooter, Elanor. Well, it was not a great success (I think we never had more than five active users :p ) but it was a lot of fun! The board was on the ezboard platform and now it's completely lost because we didn't want to pay for it :mad:

Okay, my favourite plays are Richard II, The Merchant of Venice, King Lear... well, I could add a lot more :rolleyes:

[brownjenkins]

I ran a messagge board about Shakespeare some years ago with another mooter, Elanor. Well, it was not a great success (I think we never had more than five active users :p ) but it was a lot of fun! The board was on the ezboard platform and now it's completely lost because we didn't want to pay for it :mad:

Okay, my favourite plays are Richard II, The Merchant of Venice, King Lear... well, I could add a lot more :rolleyes:

cool... wish i knew... i would have been #6 ;)

*thinks we should start a shakespeare section* :D

[Valandil]

I have not read 'Much Ado About Nothing' - but the movie version from several years back was HILARIOUS! How faithful was it to his script?

[brownjenkins]

I have not read 'Much Ado About Nothing' - but the movie version from several years back was HILARIOUS! How faithful was it to his script?

very faithful... most productions that kenneth branagh has been a part of usually are... henry v, much ado about nothing, hamlet, othello <--- all required viewing ;)

[Rían]

alright, I need to get my lazy buns over to a bookstore and buy a set of his works! In the meantime, I'll get some of those movies :)

[Count Comfect]

A set of his works shouldn't be too hard to find... he is the most famous playwright ever :p

Branagh's versions are always very true to the text, although I personally thought his Hamlet dragged a bit. Actually, more than a bit. But I'll watch his Much Ado or Henry V anyday.

Best Shakespeare movie I've seen though is Looking for Richard: it's Richard III (also coincidentally probably my favorite play) with Al Pacino as Richard, and a lot of other big actors in the other roles, interspersed with them discussing how they want to do the play. Sort of a making-of-Richard III documentary that includes a performance of the play.

[dawningoftime]

I like
Much Ado About Nothing
Taming of the Shrew
Measure for Measure
Midsummer's Night Dream

Ok I like the comedies mostly. I just got a copy of Taming of the Shrew w/ John Cleese as Patrucio (sp?)....he was born for that role. The only Kenneth Brannagnah interpretation I have not liked was "Loves Labor Lost" I couldn't make it through the first half hour of that movie before turning it off.

[Forkbeard]

I like
Much Ado About Nothing
Taming of the Shrew
Measure for Measure
Midsummer's Night Dream

Ok I like the comedies mostly. I just got a copy of Taming of the Shrew w/ John Cleese as Patrucio (sp?)....he was born for that role. The only Kenneth Brannagnah interpretation I have not liked was "Loves Labor Lost" I couldn't make it through the first half hour of that movie before turning it off.
Ah, Shakespeare fans!! Whoo Hoo!! But how to choose favorites? Very hard....at the moment, Henry V, Macbeth, The Tempest, Hamlet, Measure for Measure.......although that could change as others name other plays!

[BeardofPants]

Woah, deja vu, I just answered this on another board. :eek:

My favourite is A Midsummer Night's Dream.

[Hasty Ent]

I love Shakespeare, although it's been years since I read a play from start to finish. I tend to dip into his sonnets, or read a couple of scenes from his plays when I have an urge. I appreciate his work most when it's performed, I think. Last August I was lucky enough to see three plays at the Stratford Shakespeare Festival in Ontario, Canada: Macbeth, Cymbeline and Henry VIII. :D

The movies are wonderful, too.... they recently aired Branagh's Henry V on PBS and I had a chance to see it again.... we few, we happy few, we band of brothers........ what an outstanding performance!

Also liked Ian McKellen in Richard III, and strangely enough, Ethan Hawke in Hamlet, though I did prefer Branagh's version.... :blush:

guess I just like any adaptation of the Bard's work....

[sun-star]

guess I just like any adaptation of the Bard's work....

Me too. I've never yet found a Shakespeare play or adaptation that I couldn't like in some way...

My current favourites are Measure for Measure, Hamlet and Richard III. I saw the latter along with As You Like It in Stratford last year, and loved them both. I also went to see All's Well That Ends Well in London in April - a rather odd play, but it was a great production.

And let me speak up for the sonnets, which I adore and re-read often. I think we discussed this in the Bard of Avon thread, but does anyone have a favourite sonnet?

[Count Comfect]

There was a big listing of favorite sonnets in Bard of Avon, but no reason they can't be mentioned here ;)
My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun...

Ah.

We get to read King Lear for my Drama class on Fools next week. It's going to be amazingsuperfantasticmaravilloso.

[Millane]

Measure for Measure and Hamlet, ive never been a great fan of Shakespeares works, i didnt mind Macbeth but i just cant get into them. Measure for Measure and Hamlet are big exceptions though, loved them both. I chose to write on Measure for Measure for my exam next thursday, it wont be good though :D

[Rían]

woo hoo! Just got back from the bookstore with "The complete works of WS" in my hot little hands!

[Count Comfect]

excellent! What edition?

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Just on the Shakespeare "movies", as we seem to be calling them, I would like to know what people thought of Baz Lurhmanns Romeo and Juliet, with Di Caprio and Danes in the title role.
I thought it was great, and I'm not even that much a fan of that particular play. I felt it helped to make shakespeare modern, and it went to prove that his work is indeed timeless, as the underlying themes within the play, love and hate, loyalty and betrayal, are just as constant now as they were in 1600.

Plus I thought the little adaptions to modern from old were cool.
Romeo walks past the scene of the initial brawl of Capulet and Montague, of act1 sc1, and asks Benvolio what happened here, as he see's the blood. In the movie, they are watching TV, and a news story shows the fight.
And the use of guns as swords is also very cool. I think it's Old Montague who says to his wife: "give me my Long Sword", so he can go off and fight Old Capulet, but in the movie, he is reaching for an Assault rifle.

I just think it was quite cleverly done.

Anyway, I am more a fan of the histories, than the tradgedies or comedies. Henry the Fifth and Richard the Third being the best of these.

[Fat middle]

Well, it seems I'm the only fan of Richard II here... :D Richard III enjoys being evil and I can enjoy it too :D , but sometimes it seems too unreal... Too politically influenced by the Thomas More's text in which it is based (a text that, to some extent, wanted to legitimate Henry VIII's legitimacy, and consequently Henry VII's)...

Richard II is more centered in the psicollogy of the main character, and although the dramatic movement of the play has its stops and goes, the portrait of the King is marvellous: a fairly depressing character :)

About movies:

Luhrman. I liked it (I also like almost every "Shakespeare movie" :p). Loved Danes. Not so Leo. Some good actors, some bad. The modern adaptation was good when it didn't distract us from the text (almost always, but in the bloody scenes).

Branagh: I liked all them. Even Love's Labour Lost... well, actually, from this movie I just enjoyed all Costard and Branagh's long monologue about "women's eyes". Funny songs too :p

[Count Comfect]

Oh, no, Richard II is BRILLIANT! I just prefer Richard III :p but that doesn't mean that Richard II isn't excellllent.
My favorite bit is the part where Richard finally snaps and kills the guys coming to kill him. It's right after a long depressing soliloquoy and you can just see the guy's brain go, OK, that's enough, I am not taking this lying down anymore.

[Fat middle]

Oh, no, Richard II is BRILLIANT! I just prefer Richard III :p but that doesn't mean that Richard II isn't excellllent.
My favorite bit is the part where Richard finally snaps and kills the guys coming to kill him. It's right after a long depressing soliloquoy and you can just see the guy's brain go, OK, that's enough, I am not taking this lying down anymore.
Yeah! That's the best part :cool:

[Rían]

excellent! What edition?
Um, the inexpensive one ... :o

*is on a budget*

[Count Comfect]

Heck, my edition cost $1 at a library book sale. Nothing wrong with being on a budget ;)

Has anyone seen a show called the Compleat Works of William Shakespeare (Abridged)? That is one hilarious show. Got sent a DVD of it by my dad.

[Lenya]

I think A Midsummer Night's Dream is the wierdest play he ever wrote. It is full of wierd characters doing wierd stuff. But I liked it :)

[Earniel]

I think I've read them all, but since I made the mistake of reading through "the Complete Works" in one go, the stories get a bit mixed up in my memory, especially all the Richards and Henrys, why have so much of them I wonder. :p

I particulary liked The Tempest, Hamlet and (what was that title again?) The Wives of Windsor or something similar. As I said, the memories tend to run together.

[Count Comfect]

Merry Wives of Windsor is an odd play. It can be very well done, or it can be awful. This latter I know because I've done it ;) The version they did up at Bard on the Beach in Vancouver BC (Canada) was really good.

Has anyone read Troilus and Cressida? That was one play I had a harrrd time getting my head around.

[Earniel]

The one in Throy? Yes, I've read it. I didn't catch all of it, Shakerspeare's English isn't always easy for me.

[Count Comfect]

Yeah, the one in Troy. Troilus and Cressida isn't easy for me either, and I've been studying the stuff for years.

That one and a couple of the late romances are hard to understand.

[Rían]

I decided to start with Richard III - I've heard such great quotes from it! I got all of 1/2 page read before the kids needed something, but I came across that opening line - I didn't realize it was from Richard III, altho I knew it was from Sh.

[sun-star]

Has anyone seen a show called the Compleat Works of William Shakespeare (Abridged)? That is one hilarious show. Got sent a DVD of it by my dad.

That show is so funny! I especially like the part where they do Hamlet :D

[Count Comfect]

The Hamlet is really good, yeah.
Oob.
Denmark in state rotten is something.
Strange is this lord my.
Melt would flesh solid too too this that O!

You thank.

It's odd - a group of 3 of us did that show this summer, then I come to college and a group is doing it, plus back home a theater is doing it... crazy.

I'm still looking for someone who "got" Troilus and Cressida to explain it to me...

[Rían]

Finished Richard III - oy, why did I start with a political one? But the writing is great! I just can't keep the characters, relationships, etc. straight - too much inbreeding! Of all subjects, history is my worst, and English history - well, I guess I need a chart or something.

Why didn't you kill the bugger when you had the chance, Anne?!?! What a creep :eek:

[Count Comfect]

A creep, a malformed creep in fact, but a strangely attractive creep... :p

A chart might help: http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/1906/shakhist.html

The best ones to start with are often the comedies like Twelfth Night that are famous enough, but not too deep or complex.

[Fat middle]

I'm still looking for someone who "got" Troilus and Cressida to explain it to me...
I read it, but too much time ago...

I remember I was sort of shocked too, because I couldn't catch if it was a comedy or a tragedy.

You know, on the one hand there are funny characters and ridiculations of Homer's story, and also all that light stuff about the levity of women...

But on the other hand you have that impressive last scene of Hector's death. That was stuff of a very different kind. I wonder if it had some intention related to real life... :confused:

[Valandil]

Don't know what it was, but in high school, I had to FORCE myself to drag through any of his plays (maybe because it was 'assigned'). But the other day, after seeing and posting to this thread, I saw my paperback on the shelf, with three of his tragedies: Hamlet, Macbeth and King Lear. I started reading Macbeth (which I don't think I'd read before) and I just finished Act IV this morning.

Great stuff! I'm really enjoying it now. From historical references, it seems to be set in the 11th century (references to England's King, 'pious Edward' must refer to Edward the Confessor - who ruled up to his death at an advanced age, in 1065). Interesting study of an attempt to do evil, in order to advance oneself - and how it triggers consequences which draw more evil to the doer. Ultimately, the advancement is both unenjoyable and short-lived.

[Valandil]

Finished Macbeth on my lunch hour yesterday. Found two interesting parallels with LOTR! :p

It has to do with two 'signs' given to Macbeth by the supernatural 'apparitions' which made him feel safe from all harm. He was told that he would be kind until such-and-such forest (Birnham Wood?) came up to his castle... and there was a good deal of distance between them. The other was that he could not be slain by any man born of woman.

Those who know the story know what happens:

His hopes were first crushed when the advancing armies cut branches from the forest to screen themselves from view and hide their numbers. So 'the forest' advanced on the castle in this way. Of course... I thought of Ents! :D

Then - when Macduff finally confronts Macbeth... Macbeth tries to dissuade him from pressing the encounter because of his enchantment, to which Macduff replies that he must not know that Macduff had been ripped from his mother's womb, before he could be born of her... and then goes on to slay Macbeth. Of course, that made me think of Eowyn's encounter with the Witch-King, although details had been changed, of course.

Lots of great quotes throughout - I'll try to post a few later.

Found a site on historical sources - the actual Macbeth actually slew Duncan in battle, not in bed - and the ancillary characters were all quite different. Perhaps modifying history (or a novel) for a play (or screenplay) dates back to him! :p ;)

[Count Comfect]

Hey, I never noticed those before. Those are cool parallels between two of my favorite authors!

I don't think Shakespeare really Invented rewriting history, but he certainly raised it to an art form :) which is more than most people who do it today.

[sun-star]

Finished Macbeth on my lunch hour yesterday. Found two interesting parallels with LOTR! :p

It has to do with two 'signs' given to Macbeth by the supernatural 'apparitions' which made him feel safe from all harm. He was told that he would be kind until such-and-such forest (Birnham Wood?) came up to his castle... and there was a good deal of distance between them. The other was that he could not be slain by any man born of woman.

Those who know the story know what happens:

His hopes were first crushed when the advancing armies cut branches from the forest to screen themselves from view and hide their numbers. So 'the forest' advanced on the castle in this way. Of course... I thought of Ents! :D

I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien, when he read Macbeth as a child, was very disappointed that the woods didn't really move on Dunsinane - and that was why he made the Ents do it in LOTR :D

BTW, I think both stories are based on a real historical event (or real legend anyway) about resistance to William the Conqueror in Kent. A guerilla movement attacked him disguised as trees. Or something like that...

[Khamûl]

I think A Midsummer Night's Dream is the wierdest play he ever wrote. It is full of wierd characters doing wierd stuff. But I liked it :)
Here's my notes for that play as taken during Lit class.

They're all idiots. The court laughs at Pyramus and Thisbe, the faeries laugh at the court, and we laugh at everyone. So everyone's stupid.

That's almost a direct quote from my professor, too. :D

I'm working on As You Like It right now.

[Valandil]

I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien, when he read Macbeth as a child, was very disappointed that the woods didn't really move on Dunsinane - and that was why he made the Ents do it in LOTR :D
...

He didn't like it, so he did it better, huh? :p ;)

[sun-star]

It's a pretty brave writer who thinks he can improve on Shakespeare :D

[Valandil]

Perhaps... and yet, in a sense - doesn't that just seem like the kind of thing likely to only come from the imagination of a child? :)

[Rían]

Starting on Twelfth Night - funny!

[Count Comfect]

Everyone thinks they can improve on Shakespeare. Only a few have the hubris to publish it ;)

[Khamûl]

I've finished As You Like It. Now I've just got to figure out why Rosalind succeeded when Juliet (of Romeo and Juliet) failed. Before tomorrow. When I have to write an essay on it. :rolleyes:

[Forkbeard]

I've finished As You Like It. Now I've just got to figure out why Rosalind succeeded when Juliet (of Romeo and Juliet) failed. Before tomorrow. When I have to write an essay on it. :rolleyes:

All about genre--one's a tragedy (everything must end badly) and one's a comedy (everything's wrapped up happily)--all about the Wheel of Lady Fortune and Aristotle's definitions of comedy and tragedy in I THINK the Poetics....

[Count Comfect]

In terms of character, because Roz relies on herself and Juliet relies on the Friar and the Nurse. Rosalind organizes her entire relationship/marriage on her own (in her role as "Ganymede") while Juliet just sits at home hoping it will work out.

[Count Comfect]

Just came back from near-catatonia in the Widener stacks here at Harvard. Shelveses and shelveses of Shhhhhhhhhakesssssssssspeare, precious... *gollum*

[sun-star]

I know how you feel. I went to the Bodleian Library in Oxford for the first time today *drools*

(*stops drooling because it gets you kicked out of the library*)

[Count Comfect]

EXACTLY!! *passes out in anticipation of spending time "studying"*

[Khamûl]

In terms of character, because Roz relies on herself and Juliet relies on the Friar and the Nurse. Rosalind organizes her entire relationship/marriage on her own (in her role as "Ganymede") while Juliet just sits at home hoping it will work out.
According to my essay, Rosalind remains more level-headed in her pursuit of love. She makes sure it's really love and not just an unfortunate case of hormones. And that's why she succeeds where Juliet fails.

[Count Comfect]

Good point. Get a grade?

[Elanor the hobbit]

Hey Shakespeareans. I love Shakespeare. In my Shakespeare class in high school I won a prize for being the Most Obsessed With Shakespeare. It was a Shakespeare trivia game which is not very good. I don't think anyone would actually play it. Some of the trivia is interesting though. In skits I played a schizophrenic grave digger and a creepy Caliban. I've been told I read iambic pentameter well. That's something, I guess. I'm not a good physical actress though.

In my Shakespeare class at college I directed, costume and set-designed, and played Pyramus in a little skit version of Pyramus and Thisbe. Weird thing: my professor was actually named William O. Shakespeare! Of course if you were named that you'd have to be an English professor! His son is also named William and is an actor. Sadly, the professor was very ugly and had a boring, monotonous voice. But he did know his Shakespeare. (I hope he never reads this...)

I have read all the comedies, several of the tragedies, and a few of the histories. Also several sonnets.

My favorites in order of favoritism: Twelfth Night, King Lear, the Tempest, Much Ado, Midsummer, Hamlet, and R&J. I think King Lear is an underappreciated play. I love Edgar. If Edgar was real I would marry him. ;)

Plays I hate: All's Well That Ends Well. It doesn't end well and it's disgusting. Prove me wrong. ;) Um, I hate parts of Hamlet and R&J, but not the whole thing. There are other plays that I don't exactly like, but I don't remember hating them.

::waves to Fat Middle:: Hey there! Shakespeare's cool.

[Count Comfect]

Umm...defending All's Well... um, that's HARD... Well, Helena gets what she wants, yes? That's about it. Not a happy play.

Lear is a very good play, but I'd hardly say "unappreciated" - I've read several critics who call it on a par with the Bible as one of the most important works of literature ever...

Oh, and hi! Welcome! Great to have another Shakespeare/Tolkien nut to talk to ;)

[BeardofPants]

Erm... check her sign-up date... she's an 'oldbie'. :D So ... uh... welcome back person I've only ever seen in the archives! ;)

[Count Comfect]

Oldbie noted. Number of posts also noted.
However, I guess that means Welcome... back.

[Fat middle]

Oldbie noted. Number of posts also noted.
However, I guess that means Welcome... back.
She usually used her other username "Elanor" so when we moved to vBulletin we set the Elanor's date an post count to their true values, but didn't chage the "Elanor the hobbit" one. The process was not automatic.

In fact he joined the moot before me. October or november 1999, I think.

*waves to Elanor* Hi again. It seems you found your way to the thread :D

[Khamûl]

Good point. Get a grade?
I got an A. :D

[Count Comfect]

Sweet! :D Guess that means you were right...

[Elanor the hobbit]

She usually used her other username "Elanor" so when we moved to vBulletin we set the Elanor's date an post count to their true values, but didn't chage the "Elanor the hobbit" one. The process was not automatic.

In fact she joined the moot before me. October or november 1999, I think.

*waves to Elanor* Hi again. It seems you found your way to the thread :D

Yeah, I can't find the password for Elanor anymore. :( I posted a lot! I joined back in November 99, a month or two after Entmoot was created. My freshman year at college. Bmilder almost made me a moderator but I chickened out. Then I went to Europe for a year and a half, and when I came back Entmoot was this huge thing and I was intimidated. :)

Count Comfect, I meant Lear is not as well known to most people as, say, Hamlet, MacBeth, or R&J. At least it seems that way to me. But I think it's the best tragedy.

BeardofPants, that's an interesting nickname. Wow, I'm happy you read the archives! Those were the days...;) Did you ever read the thread called How to cook a Hutt? It was the most hilarious thread ever. I think it's the seventh earliest one in the archives. Since it was transplanted from ezboard, we all show up as guests. I was both Elanor and CantinaCreature. :cool:

[Count Comfect]

Lear doesn't seem as widely read, you're right. But most people who have read it seem to rate it most highly. Interesting, that. I mean, if everyone who reads it likes it, why don't more people read it?

Maybe it is because it confuses people - I know it confused my Drama class last week...

P.S. Read the How to cook a Hutt thread. Hi-larious!

[Forkbeard]

Lear doesn't seem as widely read, you're right. But most people who have read it seem to rate it most highly. Interesting, that. I mean, if everyone who reads it likes it, why don't more people read it?

Maybe it is because it confuses people - I know it confused my Drama class last week...

P.S. Read the How to cook a Hutt thread. Hi-larious!

I think because its subject matter requires some maturity and life experience to appreciate. Most people, certainly not all and present company excluded, read Shakespeare in high school and college and then never again--they can't quite appreciate Lear yet at that point. Least that's my take.

[Khamûl]

That's exactly what my lit professor said. He said that he won't teach King Lear to a bunch of 20-somethings. He said that it's something that you don't really understand until you've become an old man yourself.

[Earniel]

He said that it's something that you don't really understand until you've become an old man yourself.
Alas, then I fear I'll never really understand it.... ;)

[Count Comfect]

LOL.

But then, it wasn't written by an old man... which begs the question of whether Shakespeare himself "understood it" as a modern critic would put it.

[Forkbeard]

LOL.

But then, it wasn't written by an old man... which begs the question of whether Shakespeare himself "understood it" as a modern critic would put it.
Depends in what you mean by old........

I noted that one needs some life experience and maturity...not necessarily to be an elderly male.

[Count Comfect]

I wasn't arguing with that - I think it is probably true, although I am not certain (I think I understand it, after all, and I really don't have that much of either)... I was more commenting on Khamul's prof who mentioned "old men." :)

[Khamûl]

Well, since he's an old man himself, I guess he was speaking from experience. :p

[sun-star]

A writer doesn't have to have experienced something to write about it. Shakespeare wasn't ever a teenage girl in love, but he got Juliet down right ;) As Forkbeard said, it's about 'life experience' - though I'm not sure what that means when you apply it to Shakespeare. How varied was his experience, and does it matter if the answer is we don't actually know? What does constitute life experience, anyone who's got it? :D

(I have bad memories of a teacher who told me you can't understand Emma unless you're over the age of 21 - I was a cocky 14-year-old at the time and this naturally enraged me :D)

[Lenya]

The fact that he got Juliet right just shows he is a good writer, and good writers don't need to have experienced something to write about it - like Tolkien :)

[Elfhelm]

In college I "taught" Lear to the class. The professor gave us extra credit if we picked a major work and lead the class one day. I spent most of the class talking about image patterns, the concept of nothingness, the idea that troubles in the kingdom are reflected in the weather, etc. With about ten minutes to go, my teacher raised his hand, and I of course said sure, Mr. C., what's up? He asked, "So did this guy have any children?" ... :o

[Count Comfect]

That's his problem for being unspecific about whether he wanted themes or a summary :p

I went to a bookstore the last 2 days (same store both days). They have 4 shelves of commentary on Shakespeare. I bought my mom's birthday present there! It was a happy Shakespeare search.

[Rían]

Am continuing to work my delighted way thru The Complete Works of William Shakespeare - just finished "Much ado" and "Merchant of Venice" :)

[Rían]

In college I "taught" Lear to the class. The professor gave us extra credit if we picked a major work and lead the class one day. I spent most of the class talking about image patterns, the concept of nothingness, the idea that troubles in the kingdom are reflected in the weather, etc. With about ten minutes to go, my teacher raised his hand, and I of course said sure, Mr. C., what's up? He asked, "So did this guy have any children?" ... :o
Hee hee! :D That's funny!

Did anyone talk to you afterwards and appreciate your slightly more deep analysis of the work?

[Count Comfect]

I got out a First Folio reprinted edition for work in my Drama class today! And I read all the way through Twelfth Night... my precious... *gollum*

[zephyrgirl]

At the moment I am studying Macbeth, I used to really like it! I love all the prose in Shakespeare, I love how poetic it is.
I just hate when you are writing an essay about a piece of literature it often feels like you are ripping it to shreads, piece by piece. :(

[Lenya]

I loved Macbeth! We did it last year in school. And I loved pulling the story apart. I haven't read all of his plays but Macb is deffinately the best so far. Mid summer night's dream is second. (That's the wierdest one)

[Count Comfect]

I just saw the BEST production EVER of Love's Labours Lost, at the Seattle Shakespeare Company. Just a brilllllliant cast, spoke the verse perfectly, emoted wonderfully. Made me tingle. Wanted to hug them all and sing their praises, but I think they'd have been a little creeped out, except for the ones that know me ;)

*sigh* Makes me miss acting Shakespeare.

[sun-star]

I'm going to see A Comedy of Errors on Thursday, which I'm really looking forward to, so I need to try and read it before then...

[Mercutio]

Has anyone seen the new Merchant of Venice movie?

[sun-star]

Yes! I thought it was very good.

[Fat middle]

Has anyone seen the new Merchant of Venice movie?
Hadn't heard about it...

Can anybody post more details about the movie? director, cast...

It's a difficult movie to be made these days. Let's see how they deal with the antisemitic plot. And let's see if they make an homosexual Antonio or not :rolleyes:

[Mercutio]

apparently they did...a little at least...

Sun-star-- it was rated "R" in the U.S. for "some nudity." How bad/not bad was it? My mom want's to go see it and I think her reaction from that rating would be..."um never mind."

the Philadelphia newspaper gave it a 3.5 out of 4 (3.5-4s are rare for them).


A 'Merchant' of fine measure

Carrie Rickey
Philadelphia Inquirer
Published: Friday, January 28, 2005

At the molten core of Michael Radford's superb The Merchant of Venice is the stooped figure of Al Pacino's Shylock, whose guttural eloquence is an insufficient defense against religious persecution.

For those unfamiliar with this most morally challenging of Shakespeare's plays, Shylock is a Jewish moneylender stewing over Christian hypocrisy. Venetians such as Antonio (Jeremy Irons) have no scruples about borrowing money from the loan shark. But they spit upon Shylock even as they accept his golden ducats.

And so the moneylender contrives elaborate revenge: If Antonio defaults, Shylock will extract from him a pound of flesh - payback for the abuse heaped upon him by the so-called merciful Christians of Venice.

Given its caricatured figure of the money-grubbing Jew, for the last two centuries the debate about the play has run roughly along these lines: Merchant of Venice, Jewish tragedy or Christian comedy? Shylock, villain or victim?

In their crisp and lucid interpretation Radford and Pacino answer: Yes, yes, yes, YES.

For Shakespeare, who in all probability never met a Jew in an England where Catholics were routinely put to death, Shylock was a homunculus with a money bag for a heart. As Pacino plays it with Old Testament beard and wrath, if his character's heart is a bottomless well of festering fury, it is the cumulative effect of the poisonous stabs from the likes of Antonio.

Yet for all of Shylock's rage, Shakespeare scholars call Merchant a comedy. Because? The Bard devotes roughly half the story to Shylock's feud with Antonio, the other half to the courtship of Portia (Lynn Collins) by Bassanio (Joseph Fiennes), whose friend (and perhaps lover?) Antonio borrowed from Shylock to bankroll the younger man's fortune-hunt. If the play were a modern human, it probably would be diagnosed as bipolar. But the old-master painters (Caravaggio and Velasquez) whom Radford quotes extensively (and humorously) had another word for such startling play of brightness and shadow: chiaroscuro.

In Radford's perceptive adaptation, condensed to less than 21/2 hours and shot in the Venice of murky canals and marbled palazzos, the leaden darkness surrounding Shylock intensifies the golden light haloing Portia - and vice versa. The metallurgical metaphor is intentional, Radford mining the meaning in scenes in which the extrinsic glow of gold blinds characters to the intrinsic qualities of what lies beneath. If Shylock is obsessed with his golden ducats, so, too was Portia's late father, who devised a test for her husband-to-be that involves caskets of lead, silver and gold.

The Shylock tragedy and the Portia comedy converge in the famous courtroom scene in which Portia, disguised as a male lawyer, entreats the moneylender to show mercy to Antonio. Pacino's ferocious Shylock argues that a contract is a contract, the emotional subtext being that since he has been so grievously wronged, revenge must be right. Collins' formidable Portia appeals to Shylock's better self, entreating him to show mercy even though she shows him none.

Collins, who at the eleventh hour replaced a pregnant Cate Blanchett, is an actress of extraordinary gifts and Botticelli radiance. In what is, unbelievably, the first English-language film of Merchant since the silent era, Collins and Pacino plumb the depths of acting, of Shakespeare, of the difference between law and justice. Radford brings the themes of the movie to life by highlighting Shakespeare's language and his imagery.

[Mrs.Gimli]

Thats funny PippenTook becouse I watched HAMLET last night.I have read the unabriged version

[sun-star]

Cast list and details
here (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379889/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxzZz0xfGxtPTIwMHx0dD1vbnxwbj 0wfHE9TWVyY2hhbnR8aHRtbD0xfG5tPW9u;fc=1;ft=112;fm= 1)

Sun-star-- it was rated "R" in the U.S. for "some nudity." How bad/not bad was it? My mom want's to go see it and I think her reaction from that rating would be..."um never mind."

As I recall, there's one rather gratuitous scene in a brothel, but that's all, and I'm sure it's nothing you haven't seen before :D It was only rated a PG in the UK, I think.

The anti-Semitism was dealt with fairly well - it's there in the play, there's not much you can do about it. Al Pacino and Jeremy Irons were both excellent. Unlike the reviewer above, I thought the actress who played Portia lacked gravitas, and was the most unconvincing boy I've ever seen! The section at the end about the rings dragged on a bit, but apart from that it didn't seem like a long film. The settings (Venice and Belmont) were stunning, and there were lots of interesting details and enjoyable little moments such as Portia's different suitors choosing between the caskets. Definitely recommended.

[sun-star]

I'm going to see A Comedy of Errors on Thursday, which I'm really looking forward to, so I need to try and read it before then...

It turned out to be excellent. I'm not crazy about the Shakespeare comedies where everyone dresses up as someone else and there are twins getting mixed up and whatever, so I wasn't sure I would like this... since it has two pairs of identical twins. They've never met each other, and when they turn up in the same city they keep being mistaken for each other, including by one of the twins' wife. Sounds terrible but is actually really funny and it was a great production too.

[Count Comfect]

I'm not crazy about the Shakespeare comedies where everyone dresses up as someone else and there are twins getting mixed up and whatever,

Isn't that all of them? :p I mean, the man milked those 2 devices (disguise and twins) soooooo much...

[sun-star]

Oh, I know! The Elizabethan sense of humour must have been very strange :D

[Count Comfect]

It's all just ripoffs of Plautus and Italian theater - so I guess ALL old senses of humour must have been very strange :p

[ethuiliel]

Lets see...

I've seen the version of Hamlet that my sisters class put on.
I read Julius Ceasar for school last year.
I'm reading Macbeth in English now.
I've seen the movie of... some play by Shakespeare, I can't remember which right now.
I've seen a "Complete Works of Shakespeare [abridged]" play that someone in my youth group's school put on, but it basically skimmed by all the plays without going into detail, so it hardly counts other than giving you an idea of what the VERY basic plot is of each.

I feel like I've read at least something else by Shakespeare, but I can't think of anything else. I know I know the plot of Romeo and Juliet (who doesn't?) but I can't remember if I've read it or not.

One of my classmates is really obsessed with Shakespeare.

[Count Comfect]

Complete Works of Shakespeare [abridged] is a great play. Although, as you say, it skims. And is inaccurate. But funny.

[sun-star]

I think I've said this before... if not in this thread then in the other Shakespeare one. Anyway, I like their abridged Hamlet :D

[Count Comfect]

Oob!

Tanoliel (she's on here occasionally) and I were in that once. It was amazingly fun.

We're reading/watching versions of Richard III in one of my Shakespeare classes right now. Does anyone have anything insightful to say about Act 4 scene 2 (when Richard orders the Princes in the tower killed)? I have to write an essay on it :D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

there is a new production of Julius up west at the moment, Ralph Fiennes is in it
bit of a modernisation i think, so that could be interesting

my favourite play by old billy boy is the scottish play

[Adonai Dragonwagon]

I saw the Merchant of Venice movie. It was really quite good, although I would have thought that it was rated 'R' because of the intensity of the court room scene. I think they just threw the nudity in there to date the movie, and make it more realistic, but it probably would have been rated 'R' anyway.
I thought the last scene was interesting; the one where Jessica is watching the guys shooting arrows from boats, and she has a ring on her finger. That means that the tale of her being an ungrateful child was false; she kept her mother's ring, as well as most of the money.
My parents and I got into a lengthy discussion about that, actually, since it seemed to be mostly Jessica's fault that Shylock insisted on his bond. At first, it was just a threat, a reminder to Antonio that he was a human being. But then, he wanted revenge.
So we were wondering; who wanted Shylock to go crazy? Or even, Who wanted Antonio dead?




Ah, the Complete Works of Shakespeare [Abriged!]. I love them. Because they are really accurate, if you read deep enough and have enough familiarity with the plays.

Oh, yeah, I've read most of Shakespeare's plays, whether on my own or through school, and I've seen quite a few of them, too.

[Jabberwock]

I saw Taming of the Shrew last summer in Cedar City Utah and the Shakespeare festival. It was incredible. That being said, I am not a huge Shakespeare fan. I think my aversion goes back to a graduate class in university where we were forced to read more than 20 of the plays and a good 60-70 critical texts on the plays just for one credit. I hated that course, but it was my only option.
My interest in Shakespeare now lies in his use of and massive influence on the English language. I'm a hobby linguist, so Shakespeare is constantly popping up in my studies and its all good.

[Lotesse]

The Merchant of Venice the movie is a pile of crap. An agonizing, horrible pile of crap, a slap in Shakespeare's face. Crap.

[Mercutio]

We are going to see "Love's Labours Lost" in a couple weeks at the Delaware Shakespeare Festival.

[Lief Erikson]

I just came back from a Shakespeare Festival. Watched two plays, "A Comedy of Errors" and "Macbeth". They were brilliant performances :D. I really, really enjoyed them.

Peracles is still my top favorite Shakespeare play though. Richard III runs a close second.

[Mercutio]

So we've seen "Love's Labors Lost." It was delightful...they do it on an outdoor "stage" at a private school in Wilmington. It started at 7:00 and was dark by the time they finished. Well acted, enjoyable, and the perfect setting--since most of the play takes place in a castle park. :)

[Lief Erikson]

I saw that play in the woods outside our library. That's the one where the man nails all those love sonnets to trees, and then goes to the "doctor", right?

[Mercutio]

no....are you thinking of "As You Like It"?

Love's Labours Lost is the one about the king and his three lords who swear off women for three years (in order to further their studies). But when the princess of France and her three ladies-in-waiting show up on "necessary business" (and therefore an exception to their oath)....

[Lief Erikson]

Oh yes! I think that I've seen that one too, though a long time ago. I saw it as a movie more recently.

I was indeed thinking of "As you Like It". Name goof :p .

Which is your favorite Shakespeare play?

[Mercutio]

I haven't seen enough to know...The only ones I'm familiar with (have read or seen) are Taming of the Shrew, Julius Caesar, Romeo & Juliet, Love's Labours Lost, Merry Wives of Windsor, Macbeth, Othello, As You Like It, Midsummer Night's Dream, and Much Ado About Nothing.

I would like to see Twelfth Night.

[Lief Erikson]

There's a movie of "Twelfth Night" out that's very good. Trevor Nunn is the director. It's a favorite with our family; I recommend it.

[Smeagol_fan]

I love Shakespeare plays. Loved them, listened to them, and watched them since since I was five. There are too many for me to pick out a favorite (I do have a few least favorites, though).

[Elanor]

There's a movie of "Twelfth Night" out that's very good. Trevor Nunn is the director. It's a favorite with our family; I recommend it.

I think this has to be my favorite movie ever. lol!

Great cast, perfect music, beautiful scenery (though not exactly accurate, but who cares?), wonderfully adapted. I think there has to be a balance in adapting Shakespeare between keeping the original lines, keeping the spirit of the play, and turning it into an enjoyable film. Most Shakespeare-based films lean much to far to one side or the other, but Trevor Nunn's Twelfth Night is the best of all three.

It's one of those rare movies that you can watch over and over again, and you notice more each time. One time I watched it with my family and as soon as it was over my dad (at least I think it was him) said, "Let's watch it again!" I especially love the moment at the end when Ben Kingsley looks directly at the camera and says, "Every day!" It just makes me giggle every time.

[Mercutio]

We are studying Hamlet in English Lit class. I really liked reading it. We watched Kenneth Branagh's version (4+ hours long) and parts of Mel Gibson's. IMO Branagh's was better.

Branagh's:
The character of Hamlet seemed more like the Hamlet from the text, more fluctuating between states (and Gibson gets too bug-eyed too often :eek:). Since it was word for word the original no important things were left out (like Fortinbras). The acting was generally excellent across the board. The opulent 19th century setting worked quite well. Gibson's rennaissance-esque was too dark (literally dark...lighting). I also liked Horatio a lot more in Branagh's than Gibson's. The two Ophelia's (Kate Winslet & Helena Bonham-Carter) were pretty similar.

For endings, Branagh's was a little too entertaining. Yes, the fencing was quite good. The whole swing down on a chandelier into the king and throw a sword like a dart.......no. At least Branagh kept Horatio wanting to kill himself, the messenger, and Fortinbras in the end, however.
In Gibson's, Laertes seemed much more hatred-full and Hamlet was more mad (I think good things). The film ended with Horatio's "May angels sing you to your sleep" (or something along those lines), and therefore left out some very important conclusions/themes. If you cut though, that's a wonderful place to end.

Overall, Gibson's would've been much more accessible to today's general audience (especially for people not familiar/friendly towards Shakespeare; in Branagh's they'd be asleep within 15 minutes). Shakespeare would probably approve of either version.

[King of The Istari]

I've read a few Shakespere plays, my favourite has to be Macbeth
I just like the idea of a reletivlly good person being minipulated into killing someone and then decending into madness... Nice and tragic gotta love it


"as I stood my watch upon the hill the wood began to move"
Macbeth, William Shakespere
Tolkien's insperation for the martch of the ents

PS. did anyone in the UK see the BBC shakespere Re Told things that have been on, for anyone who isn't in the UK, they took several plays including Macbeth and much ado about nothing and modernised them, so they follow the same storeyline but are set in the modern day with modern speech,
Macbeth was the best, it was converted so Macbeth became Joe Macbeth a head chef in a top restraunt the witches are bin men and Macbeth gets 3 michlin stars and owns the restraunt instead of thane of cawdor and then king.

[MangoPi]

PS. did anyone in the UK see the BBC shakespere Re Told things that have been on, for anyone who isn't in the UK, they took several plays including Macbeth and much ado about nothing and modernised them, so they follow the same storeyline but are set in the modern day with modern speech,


lol considering that that is what Shakespeare himself did with his plays, they would just be keeping with that old time Elizabethian tradition.

You know... except for all the cross dressing. :eek:

[Elanor's Angel]

Oh my gosh! My class is currently reading Romeo and Julliet...
my teacher has to explain parts of it I rather wish sho would'nt...
My table has come to a conclusion: Shakespeare is a very perverted old man! (Not old at the time exactly... but still...)
But the writing is beautiful....

[The Gaffer]

Sexual politics is one of the reasons why he is still so relevant.

And, yes, I'm sure he would approve of the modern treatments. I've recently seen Macbeth as a gangster type setting, in a disused car factory, with the protagonists driving cars onto the stage and stuff.

Would love to see a play done in the restored Globe, though, with the audience set out the way he would have dealt with (the proles standing right in front of the stage)

[Elfhelm]

I acted in As You Like It set in the Old West in a community theatre group. We used accents like the western movies, which is to say, southern accents. And we sang barbershop arrangements with the song words wedged in, like Take thou no scorn to wear the horns, set to Goodbye My Coney Island baby. It was fun, but personally I'm a purist.

[Elanor's Angel]

Yeah. My teacher compared the lingo then to slang now... It was actually really funny to see her do it...

[klatukatt]

We just studied Taming of the Shrew with a VERY feminist teacher, so that was fun.

I love putting BDSM in that show! :D

Othello at my theater was SOOOO GOOOD! ack!

Also, Desdemona (a Play about a Handkerchief) was so fun last summer! It's about the three women from Othello.

[Elanor's Angel]

Yeah, I sit at a table with only girls, so it's a little less aquard...

[Elfhelm]

Yay, I just got my tickets to Ashland! Twelfth Night and Merry Wives. It's going to be wonderful. I've been to their performances before and was never let down.

[Elanor's Angel]

Coolness! Today my class watched the first bit of an old R&J movie... aquardness ensued.... I mean, how many make-out scenes can you cram into the first 10-20 minutes of a movie!

[Elfhelm]

LOL! Those two need to GET MARRIED! hehehe

Here's an interesting tidbit about that one. It's about the difference between comedy and tragedy. In a comedy, everything starts out crazy but eventually it all works out. In a tragedy every starts outs OK but eventually it all goes awry. In R&J the first half, up to the wedding, is a comedy, and the second half is a tragedy. So it starts out crazy then everything works out then it all goes awry!

Just about every other play ever written before R&J, even WS' own stuff, follows the formula. So R&J is the first to bust out of that formula. And it's also one of the most popular plays in the world, next to MacBeth. So busting the formula can pay off, sometimes. :D

[Elanor's Angel]

yeah... but honestly, they were swaeing their love to eachother before they had said 100 words to eachother!!! Love? no, lust!

[durinsbane2244]

i've had to do a couple projects on ol' willie, and i love the fact that the greatest playwright in history was the son of a glover! oh the irony! huzzah basic education!

[Elanor's Angel]

Really? That's awesome! The perverted sone of a glovemaker!

[Elfhelm]

This year's Shakespeare in the Park is MacBeth. I dunno. MacBeth seems like it should be performed at night, and around Halloween. In the full daylight of summer... it's just not as creepy.

[Forkbeard]

This year's Shakespeare in the Park is MacBeth. I dunno. MacBeth seems like it should be performed at night, and around Halloween. In the full daylight of summer... it's just not as creepy.
Certainly performed at night, at least....or start at twilight....

[Mercutio]

Our local festival is Much Ado.

[Count Comfect]

Ours is Henry VI and Midsummer Night's Dream. And I'm in Midsummer! (only a minor role, Starveling, but still, yay!)

[Mercutio]

Ours is Henry VI and Midsummer Night's Dream. And I'm in Midsummer! (only a minor role, Starveling, but still, yay!)

That's quite exciting :)

[GreyMouser]

This year's Shakespeare in the Park is MacBeth. I dunno. MacBeth seems like it should be performed at night, and around Halloween. In the full daylight of summer... it's just not as creepy.

In Vancouver (B.C.) we always had Theater Under the Stars in summer- being the West Coast, it often turned into Theater Under the Umbrellas

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Just on the Shakespeare "movies", as we seem to be calling them, I would like to know what people thought of Baz Lurhmanns Romeo and Juliet, with Di Caprio and Danes in the title role.
I thought it was great, and I'm not even that much a fan of that particular play. I felt it helped to make shakespeare modern, and it went to prove that his work is indeed timeless

Warning! Warning! Contradiction alert! :p

[Elfhelm]

I hated that DiCaprio Romeo. To me it proved that Shakespeare is easy to botch.

[klatukatt]

blah on DeCraprio.

The only good part was the drag-fest.

And the opening scene was pretty cool, but not cool enough to redeem the whole movie.

[durinsbane2244]

ah, big fan of Billy here...check it Billy Shakes (http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/index.html?)

[jammi567]

I hated that DiCaprio Romeo. To me it proved that Shakespeare is easy to botch.
Why? I personally thought it was brilliant, especially as they used the play, but just put it into a modern setting.

[jammi567]

i've read: romeo and juliet, macbeth, and that's it. i loved both of them to bits. :D

[Elfhelm]

It turned out that Macbeth worked well in the park. It was a twilight show and by the time Lady Macbeth was sleepwalking, it was dark. The gloom reflected the growing madness in the play. So it wasn't such a bad idea after all! :D

[Count Comfect]

Shakespeare in the park isn't a bad idea... although after we open Midsummer Night's Dream in the park (on Friday, :eek: ) I may be singing a different tune... It's just volume that's really a problem. Parks eat your voice.

[Elfhelm]

This lantern... *AHEM* ...

This lantern doth the moon present!

[Count Comfect]

...horned moon ;)

That'd be one of my lines. :D

[Beren3000]

A Midsummer Night's Dream has got to be my favorite Shakespeare play.
I've recently watched the BBC production of it. Perfect!

[Bombadillo]

I haven't read or seen that yet. It's one of those things on my "to read" list, which means I might get to it before I die.

I hated Shakespeare all throughout high school, but now that I graduated (I should say now that I just graduated, so I don't sound older than I am :p ) I realize it was really only because of the speech. Too hard to read... didn't feel like enjoying it. Apparently though, I got used to it by the time I read Macbeth junior year, and then I read Hamlet.

Hamlet rocks. :D Even just in its own right, regardless of its author's fame, and ignoring the challenge involved in writing entirely in iambic pentameter, it's a brilliant piece of work. I never expected that from Shakespeare, but no one does when they're in high school.

[Elfhelm]

He never wrote the plays to be read. He expected us to see them. He did write and publish some sonnets, though, that were meant to be read.

I say this because if the language is daunting to read, then how much more will it be in an early play that rhymes every line. I took Shakespeare in college and the first play was Midsummer. After about one page of it I gave up trying to read it and got a recording from the library. After listening once, I read it along with the recording and aced the quiz. Ta dah!

I've loved ol' Willy ever since. :)

[Rûdhaglarien]

I'm studying Shakespeare at college, now. Second class, in fact, is in 45 minutes. Our first is The Merchant of Venice. (I've been wondering about a good video/audio companion to go with my reading. If anyone has any suggestions, that'd be great.) Because seeing it is always so much better than reading it.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Try a theatre.

[Rûdhaglarien]

Well I would, of course. But it isn't actually running anywhere nearby, and as I'm rather transportation-less... you see my point, I'm sure.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I understand. I'm on a campus six miles from a town, with no car. And the six-mile away town is a pretty poor one in my estimation. We've got a nice 25-minuter, though.

[Count Comfect]

The Pacino Merchant is supposed to be good, although I personally have not seen it. That's a recent version, so it'll be out on DVD (probably VHS too if you have a VCR but nothing on which to play DVDs).

The BBC versions of the plays are good, usually, although sometimes a bit stilted - I don't really recommend their Othello for instance - but they're usually fairly easy to find, and they will give a better sense of the text than a simple readthrough can ever do.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

The BBC versions of the plays are good, usually, although sometimes a bit stilted but they're usually fairly easy to find, and they will give a better sense of the text than a simple readthrough can ever do.

I fully agree Count, the BBC movies give a good portrayal of the text.

Speaking of the Merchant of Venice, what does anyone think of the anti-semitic portrayal of Shylock? Or indeed, is there an anti-semitic tinge at all?

[hectorberlioz]

So we've heard that Ole Shakey was:

1) Non-Existent

2) Gay

3) An Atheist

But what do you guys think of the theory that he was a closet Catholic?;)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I've heard it; seems plausible, but I wouldn't put any great faith in it. Possibly also gay.

[hectorberlioz]

I've heard it; seems plausible, but I wouldn't put any great faith in it. Possibly also gay.

I've always wondered how they would know if they also thought he didn't exist, or even write the plays!..:p Can't seem to win for losing! ;)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I doubt anyone believes all of those theories. :p

[hectorberlioz]

Well you see what I'm saying though:

#1: Wow Shakespeare was so awesome!

Professor: Hate to break it to you, but that guy didn't even exist and if he did, he didn't write those plays.

#1: Well, whoever he is seems to hit the nail on the head.

Professor: Most atheists do. And by the way, he was also gay.

[Curubethion]

So we've heard that Ole Shakey was:

1) Non-Existent

2) Gay

3) An Atheist

But what do you guys think of the theory that he was a closet Catholic?;)
Actually...there's actually something to that Catholic theory...consider, for example, his reference to Purgatory found in Hamlet. He also wrote a eulogy to his deceased son, I believe...

[hectorberlioz]

Yes, that and some not so nice "descriptions" of the queen's anti-catholicism;) (reading it into Macbeth I think)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Well you see what I'm saying though:

#1: Wow Shakespeare was so awesome!

Professor: Hate to break it to you, but that guy didn't even exist and if he did, he didn't write those plays.

#1: Well, whoever he is seems to hit the nail on the head.

Professor: Most atheists do. And by the way, he was also gay.

Hehehe. Good ol' caricatures! :D

Also, members of his family were known to be Catholic, and he attended a school with strong Catholic connections.

[hectorberlioz]

Hehehe. Good ol' caricatures! :D
You enjoy them too?:D I thought I was the only one...

Also, members of his family were known to be Catholic, and he attended a school with strong Catholic connections.


That's what I've heard....I read a lot about it in First Things, a catholic magazine (the newest of which I bought today).

I've always wondered about his name. What a cool name!:D

[Gwaimir Windgem]

First Things isn't actually Catholic, but an ecumenical journal. It just seems Catholic 'cause we've got all the good writers. :p

[hectorberlioz]

First Things isn't actually Catholic, but an ecumenical journal. It just seems Catholic 'cause we've got all the good writers. :p

Well, it's MOSTLY catholic;)...btw, the writer of the music articles teahces at this college. Hah.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Oh, don't even bother trying "my teachers are better than your teachers". You will lose in a most embarrassing way.

[hectorberlioz]

Oh, don't even bother trying "my teachers are better than your teachers". You will lose in a most embarrassing way.
Did I say that?:p I ws just saying "don't think you're the only one with school clout around here.";)...besides, this is also Al Gore college.

[Count Comfect]

I think my Shakespeare prof believes Shakespeare to have been at some level cryptoCatholic. I disagree, though. There was enough residual Catholicism a) in English society outside the Church and b) in the practices of the Anglican Church under Elizabeth to account for the not-particularly-huge references to Catholicism in the plays (on top of which, of course, a lot of the plays are set before Protestantism existed).

[hectorberlioz]

You're right, the Church in England was still holding onto some of the traditions .

[Count Comfect]

If by "holding onto some of the traditions" you mean constantly threatening to kick out anyone who wouldn't wear surplices, yes. Although Shakespeare lived in a relative dip in the intensity of what would later be identified as the low church/high church war. (Mostly) after Foxe, Goodman, and the other radicalized Marian exiles and before Laud, Milton, and the radicals on both sides.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Anyone who wouldn't put on a surplice, and anyone who wouldn't take off a chasuble. Good ol' via media. :p

I don't think Milton was CoE; he would have been a heretic according to them, retaining the threefold ministry of bishop priest and deacon. For Milton, even the Presbyterian church structure was too centralised, organised, hierarchical, what have you.

The ghost in Hamlet, who died unshriven, seems to indicate a belief in something other than heaven and hell as possible destinations for the souls of the dead. While the Articles of Religion do not completely rule out the possibility of such a place, they do condemn the Romish doctrine of purgatory, and prayers for the dead were excised in the '52 BCP, which indicates (though, granted, does not absolutely demonstrate) a move away from alternatives to a strict heaven/hell divide. It would be a stretch to refer to this as being retained in the practices of the Anglican Church, though to attribute it to residual Catholicism still in the ideas of the people seems reasonable.

It was, I believe, customary at the time to portray Catholicism in a highly negative light; most people in society were Protestant or atheist, neither of whom had a high view of the Roman Church. But Friar Lawrence is a sympathetic character in Romeo and Juliet, in an age when Catholicism was in poor favor with society as a whole (even if they did retain some residual Catholicism). His mother also was, apparently, a member of a prominent Catholic family. If Shakespeare was not Catholic, it seems improbable that he was not at least sympathetic to Catholicism.

Of course, he was also gay, too. ;)

[Count Comfect]

Atheism was considered as dangerous as Catholicism - witness Kit Marlowe being investigated for having given "the atheist lecture" to Walter Raleigh - and the two were often linked, ironically enough, in popular superstition. However, I don't think Elizabethan audiences were likely to have trouble with a Roman swearing by Jupiter or a Catholic crossing himself or worrying about last rites; the theater of the time seems to have swarmed with characters who would not have been accepted in contemporary culture. Perhaps this even served as a release. At any rate, I would hesitate to take any (Shakespearean) character's existence as an argument for Shakespeare's or his society's views towards any religion, although they are obviously examples of what sort of ideas were known (if not approved of or tolerated) in his day.

As for Milton, he would have told you he was Church of England, just that he believed the Church had to be further Reformed (by, say, abolishing the hierarchy and the Popish influences). This was part of the normal variation in Renaissance England, although he was an extremist of one party. Especially during Milton's life, violent (sometimes physically violent) disagreement about doctrine was a centerpiece of what it meant to be part of the English church.

[Count Comfect]

GW - am now in a Milton class here at grad school, and realizing that you may be righter about Milton than I thought. I still think I'm right about how he would have described himself, but others would probably have described him (and did; yay pamphlet wars!) the way you do.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

If you wait long enough, it always turns out I was right. :cool:

[Rían]

Milton? OMGoodness, some of his lines in Paradise Lost bring me to tears ...

[Pitchike12]

I don't really like William Shakespeare in my real life, but have to read it to school. Plus it's kind'a boring to me. Everything is only play.

[EllethValatari]

I don't really like William Shakespeare in my real life, but have to read it to school. Plus it's kind'a boring to me. Everything is only play.

:confused: Only play?

I haven't read much. Julius Caesar was very well-written and entertaining, but R&J was too romantic for my tastes. I am, however, very fond of his sonnets. My favorite is Sonnet 8-I liked it so much I memorized it :heart:.

Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly?
Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy.
Why lovest thou that which thou receivest not gladly,
Or else receivest with pleasure thine annoy?
If the true concord of well-tuned sounds,
By unions married, do offend thine ear,
They do but sweetly chide thee, who confounds
In singleness the parts that thou shouldst bear.
Mark how one string, sweet husband to another,
Strikes each in each by mutual ordering,
Resembling sire and child and happy mother
Who all in one, one pleasing note do sing:
Whose speechless song, being many, seeming one,
Sings this to thee: 'thou single wilt prove none.'

[Gwaimir Windgem]

But the play is the fun part!

I also love the Sonnets, Elleth. My favorite of the plays is Lear; Hamlet and Julius Caesar are probably tied for my second favourite.

[GrayMouser]

Given the weather lately, this is the one that comes to mind right now:

When icicles hang by the wall
And Dick the shepherd blows his nail
And Tom bears logs into the hall,
And milk comes frozen home in pail,
When Blood is nipped and ways be foul,
Then nightly sings the staring owl,
Tu-who;
Tu-whit, tu-who: a merry note,
While greasy Joan doth keel the pot.

When all aloud the wind doth blow,
And coughing drowns the parson's saw,
And birds sit brooding in the snow,
And Marian's nose looks red and raw
When roasted crabs hiss in the bowl,
Then nightly sings the staring owl,
Tu-who;
Tu-whit, tu-who: a merry note,
While greasy Joan doth keel the pot.

[Rían]

I just took a break from doing the dishes to check the Moot, and I see ... dishes!

*goes back to the pots*

(but I'm not greasy)

[Varnafindë]

See, there's not only play, there's also poetry! :)

[inked]

Shakespeare, you know, had a good bit to do with standardization of English, as did the King James Version of the Bible - from the same era. So, I thought I would give access to some interesting information in this the 400th year of the KJV and note its importance alongside William. (There are theories that Bill helped with the phraseology and hidden messages asserted to be placed by Bill in the KJV text!)

See here:
NYT http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/the-kjv-our-real-shared-text-hits-400-years/www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/opinion/09sun3.html

BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12205084

NPR http://www.npr.org/2011/01/09/132788787/King-James-Bibles-Anniversary-Puts-Focus-On-Prior-Version

NPR2 http://www.npr.org/2011/01/07/132737418/The-Lasting-Impact-Of-The-King-James-Bible-400-Years-Later

Freely borrowed from hogwartsprofessor.com where there is much more about shared texts:
http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/the-kjv-our-real-shared-text-hits-400-years/#more-2805