Goldberry

[Forkbeard]

There is a lot of discussion about Tom Bombadill, but I have to ask about Goldberry. What is Goldberry? Yes, the book says she's the River's daughter...but what does that mean exactly? Is she Maiar? A lesser spirit? Or is "Riverman's daughter" just that she is the daughter of a mortal who lives on the River (no, I don't think so either). Is she a goddess? She in some ways anticipates Galadriel....What do you all think?

[Beren3000]

I think that she's like the nymphs of Greek mythology: a river spirit. However, I think she's so closely tied to Tom Bombadil that you can't figure her out unless you know who Tom is and vice versa.
I agree with your point that she's an "introduction" to Galadriel.

[Attalus]

I agree that Goldberry is a lot like a naiad, the water-nymphs of Greek mythology. I think, like Tom, any attempt to further identify her as a maia is a mistake. There is much in Tolkien's legendarium that is designed to be obscure. And, yes, in her role of nuturer and adviser of the Hobbits, she does indeed foreshadow Galadriel.

[Lefty Scaevola]

There is no answer to be had from Tolkien's text, notes, or letters. you have no better way to proceed than to list all the info their is about her, use it to exclude some races, and then judge what she best fits as.

[Elanor the Fair]

River-woman's daughter, River-daughter, daughter of the River - Goldberry is called all of these. What do they mean??

A river sprite - very possibly. The river personified?? Well, in every instance when Tolkien refers to Goldberry the word "river" is capitalised. This means not just a river, but the river as a person. Think about all the references to Goldberry...

Then another voice .... like the song of a glad water flowing down into the night .... came falling to meet them.

Reed by the living pool.

She passed out of the room with a glimmer and a rustle. The sound of her footsteps was like a stream falling

She seemed to be enthroned in the midst of a pool.

Her gown rustled softly like the wind in the flowering borders of a river.

Goldberry's song " told the tale of a river from the spring .. to the sea.

She held a candle ... and the light flowed through it(her hand), like sunlight through a white shell.

She was clad all in silver .... her shoes were like fishes mail.

Goldberry sang many songs ... they saw in their minds pools and waters...

Her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun it shone and shimmered. A light light the glint of water on dewy grass flashed from under her feet as she danced.

But most significantly...
By that pool long ago I found the River-daughter. Sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating!
Tom seems to indicate that Goldberry's beating heart was noteworthy. A non-living thing suddenly becoming alive?

I think this indicates that Goldberry is of the water in some way - perhaps the daughter of the River itself.

[Attalus]

That fits with her being called 'River-Daughter.' I remember being a bit surprised, the first time I read the books, that we never encountered her again, she is so fully realised, :)

[Forkbeard]

That fits with her being called 'River-Daughter.' I remember being a bit surprised, the first time I read the books, that we never encountered her again, she is so fully realised, :)


To me, she is a "Narnia" moment in the LoTR. She seems to me most like Lewis' adaptation of pagan figures to his Christian world of Narnia; Galadriel seems in some ways very much a weather deity or local deity incarnated in Middle Earth.

[inked]

Goldberry and water associations! In the hierarchal universe created by JRRT she is perhaps best considered the literal daughter of the Platonic form River, a Queen of the Naiads, so to speak. If this seems to be too grandiose, then a lower hiearchal rung would work. She could be considered the local equivalent for a specific geographical region (the Old Forest or the Withywindle drainage basin, etc). I don't think this violates JRRT subcreation but is specific realization of it in anticipation of Galadriel.

I think the resonance with Narnia is present and arises, not so much as an homage to CSL, as a necessary outworking of the Platonic concept from which both Inklings worked.

And, though I know that JRRT and Charles Williams were both Inklings, I am not suggesting a direct influence on JRRT's Goldberry, but wouldn't she be an example of Platonic form much as the ones in PLACE OF THE LION?

[Forkbeard]

Goldberry and water associations! In the hierarchal universe created by JRRT she is perhaps best considered the literal daughter of the Platonic form River, a Queen of the Naiads, so to speak. If this seems to be too grandiose, then a lower hiearchal rung would work. She could be considered the local equivalent for a specific geographical region (the Old Forest or the Withywindle drainage basin, etc). I don't think this violates JRRT subcreation but is specific realization of it in anticipation of Galadriel.

I think the resonance with Narnia is present and arises, not so much as an homage to CSL, as a necessary outworking of the Platonic concept from which both Inklings worked.

And, though I know that JRRT and Charles Williams were both Inklings, I am not suggesting a direct influence on JRRT's Goldberry, but wouldn't she be an example of Platonic form much as the ones in PLACE OF THE LION?


Hey Inked,
I'm not convinced of all the particulars, but the general thrust, yes. But if this is the working out of a Platonic concept, why don't we see or hear more about such beings as Goldberry? Anywhere? But I'm still thinking this through, so will post more later.

FB

[inked]

Forkbeard,

It is worked out in the characters of Celeborn and Galadriel, Arwen and Aragorn, Sam and Rosie, etc, isn't it? The platonic hierarchy, not the water!

[Olmer]

There is no answer to be had from Tolkien's text, notes, or letters...
Not exactly so. In the letter #210 Tolkien states that "Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes" in the river-land.
So, in a way she is a lesser than maia local spirit ,created, or probably got herself created out of Ulmo's waters.

[Attalus]

Hmm, so is that why Tom gathers lilies for her and she sits among them? That is a striking image but has rather puzzled me.

[Forkbeard]

Not exactly so. In the letter #210 Tolkien states that "Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes" in the river-land.
So, in a way she is a lesser than maia local spirit ,created, or probably got herself created out of Ulmo's waters.

In part, it is this letter which creates my question. Neither she nor Tom fit as Maia, and Tolkien to the best of my knowledge never really outlined what the "less than maia" beings might be or look like or at like; the description of Goldberry as the River's daughter doesn't seem to me to indicate that she is such a spirit. And yet, does Tolkien's mythology allow for such beings? Or should you answer with Tolkien's comment on Tom, that she isn't to be examined closely and doesn't benefit from such examination anyway?

Inked is right that G and T fit an interesting pattern of couples in ME.

[HLGStrider]

Do you know what it reminds me of? Eve being drawn from Adam's rib, the part about being found with her heart being, that is. Think about it. God created for Adam a "companion" because all the animals had mates of the same sort, and Adam did not. In this case it is possible that Eru drew Goldberry out of the water as a worthy mate for Tom, and that she represents water and he earth. It is even possible that Tom himself drew her out of the water, if not from his own being, to create a worthy, equal help mate.

[Elanor the Fair]

Hmm, so is that why Tom gathers lilies for her and she sits among them? That is a striking image but has rather puzzled me.

The first time I read The Lord of the Rings I assumed that without the presence of water and water-lillies, Goldberry would cease to be 'alive' and would turn back into the water from which she was 'born'.

[Attalus]

The first time I read The Lord of the Rings I assumed that without the presence of water and water-lillies, Goldberry would cease to be 'alive' and would turn back into the water from which she was 'born'.Hmm, very interesting interpretation. I like it. Tom does say that he is gathering lilies for his Lady, not for the two of them.

[Haradrim]

I think tom created her otu of his love for nature. He loved the earth and the world so much that one day it gave something back to him. Goldberry. He almost needs her. He needs someone to hold on to. I never thougtht TOm was bound to this world. I think she kept him there I think he to was a creation of the life spirit of the earth itself and was allowed to roam the worlds and then the earth gave him something else and he didnt want to.

[Attalus]

Tom created Goldberry? :eek: Now that is a wilful misreading of Tolkien. Nobody but Iluvatar could create a living being in the entire Legendarium. The poem says directly that he found her.

[HLGStrider]

I would say there are two possible options:
She was created for him as a gift.
She was simply another being who he found and took to heart.
They were created simultaneously as a working pair.

I think him finding her on the river makes the last unlikely, but not impossible. They could have been created simultaneously but seperately and Tom then wondered into her as plotted by Illuvatar.

I like the idea of the first. The second, however, is very possible, and I doubt we can have a direct answer.

[Lizra]

Gee guys...I read it as ....she was a lovely being Tom was fortunate to stumble upon, and he subsequently fell infatuated with/in love with...she returned his affections easily and naturally, and the two became "one" :) ...their love for each other growing and creating more joy and possibilities for good things in life than they had seperately. This type of "two are better than one" thing happens all the time! :) Goldberry is some sort of female water spirit of early origin...Tom..."The Master" of his own space, I'm not sure. :)

[Haradrim]

I didnt mean that he created her by "creating" her I meant that his love for the land and his care for it cause the land to give something back to him. SO he "created" her in a really indrect way.

[HLGStrider]

Is there any example of that happening in Tolkien, however? It seems foreign to the entire world.

[Attalus]

Is there any example of that happening in Tolkien, however? It seems foreign to the entire world.
Nope, there's not, and yep, it is.

[Manveru]

for those of you that know how tolkien wrote the lotr (im too lazy to explain it now), perhaps he created tom and goldberry when he still had no idea where his story was going. but he liked them so much he kept them in the later drafts and decided to leave them as mysterious beings

[Attalus]

for those of you that know how tolkien wrote the lotr (im too lazy to explain it now), perhaps he created tom and goldberry when he still had no idea where his story was going. but he liked them so much he kept them in the later drafts and decided to leave them as mysterious beings
This is definitely supported in the Letters.

[Haradrim]

ya know since there is no actual proof of what Tom and GOldberry is I dont think there is a right or wrong answer. Im just telling what I think. And just for my own reference who wrote Letters? Christopher or J.R.R?

[Olmer]

for those of you that know how tolkien wrote the lotr (im too lazy to explain it now), perhaps he created tom and goldberry when he still had no idea where his story was going. but he liked them so much he kept them in the later drafts and decided to leave them as mysterious beings
He created Tom ( without perhaps) much earlier than LOTR and, yes, he liked him much. " I put him in becauseI had already "invented" him independedly and wanted an "adventure" on the way."(Lett.#153)
And just for my own reference who wrote Letters? Christopher or J.R.R?
If the book titled "The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien", whose letters, do you think,in it?
But commentaries and annotations to this letters made by Humphrey Carpenter with an assistance of Christopher Tolkien. Fo your own reference I would highly recommend to read the book.You will find a lot of revelations in it. :)

[Attalus]

You will also find, in Letter 144, Tolkien's statement: And even in a mythical Age, there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

[Haradrim]

I have a lot more to read before letters. I have to finish Sil. Almost done! Then I want to read the big long series of books by christopher tolkien. I think they are called HoME. Then I will read letters. OS I expect by the time I am 50 they will be done.

[Manveru]

ya when im done the history of middle-earth ill read the letters. but right now im still finishing the book of lost tales part 1, so it'll probably be a couple years.

[Olmer]

IMHO the best way is to read "The Letters" right after the "LOTR" and "Silmarills" because it contains a lot of explanations about events in the books and its characters.This way it much easier to grasp the whole idea of the history of Middle -earth, which helps you without difficulty to follow a quite confusing narrative of the latter work of Tolkien edited by Christopher.

[Attalus]

I agree with Olmer. *Faints* The Letters are much, much more important and informative than the HoME.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

you know, when i first read fotr, i thought that goldberry was an elf























please don't laugh at me

[LickTheEnvelope]

I think HLGStrider said it best with:
They were created simultaneously as a working pair.

That's the way I saw the two, more as a cohesive 'one.' This, I beleive, is represented when they dance and sing etc. during the Dinners.

Therefor, someone was saying that Tom keeps Goldberry alive. I beleive this is true, but I think it's reasonable to assume that Goldberry may play a huge role in keeping Tom 'alive.'

[Pytt]

that is the way I see them too, as a working pair. I can't realy get used to the thought about Tom created her. that don't seem right to me. but what Merrygold is, I have no idea about. I think she is some personification of nature. and that she and Tom are indivudal from each other, yet they are tied togheter.

[Manveru]

merrigold eh?

[Pytt]

oh damn :o :(
a little norwegian ;) hope you let it pass... :o

[Attalus]

I think HLGStrider said it best with:


That's the way I saw the two, more as a cohesive 'one.' This, I beleive, is represented when they dance and sing etc. during the Dinners.

Therefor, someone was saying that Tom keeps Goldberry alive. I beleive this is true, but I think it's reasonable to assume that Goldberry may play a huge role in keeping Tom 'alive.'
The poem says that he found her. "The land" cannot create anything, especially not a rational being. Goldberry was, as were we all, created by Iluvatar.

[ItalianLegolas]

I think that Bombadil was the embodiment of 'Father Earth', so then Goldberry, would be the embodiment of 'Mother Earth'

[inked]

An inversion then of the "Sky Father" and "Earth Mother" motif? That would have been a very Tolkien-ish touch at that!

[ItalianLegolas]

yeah, i guess :confused:

[ecthelion]

"The river's daughter"
Got me thinking again...
What if Goldberry is the river's daughter, literally daughter as said before, but literally river as in Ulmo?

What if Goldberry is Ulmo's daughter?

(Read the 2 previous posts about Goldberry and haven't found this theory. Searched google and found this:
http://blind-guardian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=814228&sid=4e1afd2af1a06248128f8ebad5ba54d9
)

To make it consistent with previous arguments:
Tom's origin and Goldberry's don't necessarily have to be linked. We could take Tolkien's writing literally: "long ago I found her"... Tom was uniquely created, and met Goldberry.
Her description does sometimes remind us of Ulmo's (clad in fish mail).
A couple in Tolkien's writing doesn't have to be of the same order (see Melian the maia and Thingol the elf).
Also they had a daughter, so maiar (and possibly valar) can have children.

Shoot me now and spare yourselves the agony of debating this all over again :D

[Lindáriel]

"The river's daughter"
Got me thinking again...
What if Goldberry is the river's daughter, literally daughter as said before, but literally river as in Ulmo?

What if Goldberry is Ulmo's daughter?

(Read the 2 previous posts about Goldberry and haven't found this theory. Searched google and found this:
http://blind-guardian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=814228&sid=4e1afd2af1a06248128f8ebad5ba54d9
)

To make it consistent with previous arguments:
Tom's origin and Goldberry's don't necessarily have to be linked. We could take Tolkien's writing literally: "long ago I found her"... Tom was uniquely created, and met Goldberry.
Her description does sometimes remind us of Ulmo's (clad in fish mail).
A couple in Tolkien's writing doesn't have to be of the same order (see Melian the maia and Thingol the elf).
Also they had a daughter, so maiar (and possibly valar) can have children.

Shoot me now and spare yourselves the agony of debating this all over again :D



LOL means Laugh out loud

[ecthelion]

LOL means Laugh out loud

Hello Lindáriel and welcome to Entmoot!

It might be of interest to point out that what appears under the short line in every post is a members signature. ;)

Have a nice moot!

[nokom]

Ho Tom Bom Bombadilo! :P Anyway, I am quite interested in Mr. Bombadil. Goldberry is in no way a God nor is Tom. I personally think that Tom was one of the Istari, and that Goldberry may have been an elf of some nature.

[Valandil]

Ho Tom Bom Bombadilo! :P Anyway, I am quite interested in Mr. Bombadil. Goldberry is in no way a God nor is Tom. I personally think that Tom was one of the Istari, and that Goldberry may have been an elf of some nature.

One of the "Blue Wizards" then? Interesting theory, but since the Istari only came to Middle Earth at about 1000 of the Third Age, that doesn't seem to work with the way Elrond spoke about Bombadil.

[elven dragonrider]

I disagree that Goldberry might be an elf of some sort. I may need to read the book again, and I might be wrong. I remember something strange about her that could be elf-like, but I do remember making the mental decision that she was not an elf. I may be wrong!>:) :o :) :)

[nokom]

Yes about how Elrond spoke of Tom... Not sure there, that always halts it... :rolleyes:

[ecthelion]

*stubborn *
So why can't she be Ulmo's daughter?

[Landroval]

The Valar having children was an early idea that Tolkien discarded later. Of the spouses of the valar, he states in Annals of Aman that spouse means only association. Ulmo himself didn't even have a spouse
Ulmo is the Lord of Waters. He is alone.

[Olmer]

Ulmo himself didn't even have a spouse
But he had helpers, lesser ainur Ossё and Uinen.
Since we know that Maiar descended to the ME in multitude, it would be save to assume that the mighty Lord of Water has had more than two "helpers and servants", and among them was a River-woman.
How did she manage to produce Goldberry - beats me! :rolleyes: But on Melian's example we know that it could happen. Lucky elf, maybe, or fisherman... ;)
So, Golberry could be in some way similar to Luthien - half a human/elf, half a nature spirit with some maiar blood in her veins. :cool:

[Landroval]

But on Melian's example we know that it could happen.
However, the letters state that the whole business of elvish blood entering and ennobling the human race was Eru's plan. We have no such hint on Goldberry. As far as I am concerned, she can be an elf and that would do. Tolkien warned against coming up with off the wall theories on Tom, because he is supposed to be a mystery; I suppose the same goes for his entourage.

[ecthelion]

Tolkien warned against coming up with off the wall theories on Tom, because he is supposed to be a mystery; I suppose the same goes for his entourage.

JRR meant Tom Bombadil to be a mystery, we all agree; But maybe he wanted that mystery solved ... maybe he left clues, that only the wise could read :rolleyes:
And I propose not to automatically put Tom and Goldberry always together; their origins are not necessarily connected.
And Ulmo not having a spouse doesn't mean he doesn't have offsprings :eek:

[Landroval]

But maybe he wanted that mystery solved ... maybe he left clues, that only the wise could read
That's a common game on most Tolkien forums :).

[carlrodd]

i always thought it was reasonable to assume that goldberry, being the 'river daughter' was simply a maia spirit subservient to ulmo. that she became paired with tom bombadil, who i assume to be a greater maia power and servant of yavanna, fits nicely. yavanna had one of the greatest loves for middle earth of all the valar...maybe the greatest. she refused to forsake the land, and it makes sense that she would entrust it's care to a powerful spirit. if tom bombadil filled this roll from the beginning of tolkien's pre-history in middle earth, he would assuredly be 'the eldest', especially given that he presumably never left.

[Olmer]

However, the letters state that the whole business of elvish blood entering and ennobling the human race was Eru's plan. We have no such hint on Goldberry. As far as I am concerned, she can be an elf and that would do..
We are not talking about an improvement of human race.
You are talking about mixing up of Higher Nature Powers with Eruhini. It was definately not in Eru's plan, othervise it would be a lot of "Luthiens" on the ME.
But s...t happens :rolleyes:, and the Creator had to include it in his plan, the way he did with all Melkor's wrongdoings.

By Tolkien's understanding Goldberry is a lesser than maia local nature spirit, who represents "the actual seasonal changes" (Letter#210)
How she was created is a mystery, but knowing that all nature spirits came from the High Powers of Nature, considering that she is a "daughter" of the nature spirit, and knowing the well documented incident of the spirit is getting pregnant, you could come to an abovementioned conclusion.

On the other hand, she might wery well got created herself out of Ulmo's waters.

Tolkien warned against coming up with off the wall theories on Tom, because he is supposed to be a mystery...

...That's a common game on most Tolkien forums ...

Professor was not interested in “simply telling his story”, his concern was in CONVEYING the message about the events of long gone world, glimpses of which was coming to him as separate visions of the whole big picture, but the links between the fragments was not always there.”(The stories) arose in my mind as “GIVEN“ THINGS, and as they came, separately, so too the links grew…yet always I had the sense of “recording” what was already “THERE” somewhere not of “inventing“… (Letter#131)
So, by his words, the story of the book consists “the vistas of yet more legends and history“.
As he admitted , in some cases, when he was taking ”largely impersonal view “on the LOTR, he himself has been surprised with findings that the base canvas of the story seems giving a quite different interpretation of the events. The links between events was missing and he had to “think up” some explanations of things which didn’t “add up”.

We are just trying to find that "missing links" by applying a logistic to the basic information, which has been given in Tolkien's writings. :)
In other words, to do the same thing what Tolkien was doing for the rest of his life. :cool:

[Landroval]

You are talking about mixing up of Higher Nature Powers with Eruhini. It was definately not in Eru's plan, othervise it would be a lot of "Luthiens" on the ME.
That's a slippery slope fallacy. And to disprove from the letters:
The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.
By Tolkien's understanding Goldberry is a lesser than maia local nature spirit, who represents "the actual seasonal changes" (Letter#210)
We have little reason to takes this literary. What did she up until there were seasons, play poker in Valinor? Her description is more in tune with Tom's, "the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside". Which only brings us back to the mystery presumption.
his concern was in CONVEYING the message about the events of long gone world
Easy on that. He stated in the LotR foreward that the story has no message in his intention.
The links between events was missing and he had to “think up” some explanations of things which didn’t “add up”.We are just trying to find that "missing links" by applying a logistic to the basic information, which has been given in Tolkien's writings.
It is one thing to link events and a completely different one to try clarify mysteries of mythology which he intended to be so. It doesn't mean we can't discuss these, but I doubt we would ever come close to the coherent place Tolkien envisioned for them. When and if we do, we won't even know that; there is no one to actually confirm it.

[Olmer]

That's a slippery slope fallacy. And to disprove from the letters:
Here you are again.. disproving nothing.:cool:
We are not talking about a Divine plan for the Elven-strain "entering into Men". On this issue I completely agree with you.
The issue is whether the Nature Powers (Ainur) were intended to "improve" the Children of Iluvatar. So far I did not find any refrence.
From the beginning we have to assume that Goldberry is kind of unique being. While reading, I have got an impression that most of the time she spends in the water, where she belongs. So, she is not an elf, she is not a human, then - who is she? We could live her as she is - the mystery, or by the method of deduction :) we, somehow, could try to explain her origin.
Tolkien, at least made such attempt.

We have little reason to takes this literary.
Buddy, you are contradicting yourself. :)
All the time you were advocating for taking Tolkien's words at the face value, quoting him as the final judgement on every issue, and now "have little reason to take this literary"? ;)
I have a reason to think that by this words Tolkien accepted Goldberry neither a human, nor as an elf. He tried to fit her "more in tune with Tom", and on this statement I agree with you. :)


Easy on that. He stated in the LotR foreward that the story has no message in his intention.
Well, he has had different statements, often changing his opinion on this matter.
Remember our dispute on a Christian subject? You were urging me to contradict the given by Tolkien's statement of his intention to convey Christian messages in his book. Now, by saying that his intention were to give no messages whatsoever (which is simply inpossible for any writer to achieve), you were contradicting yourself and at the same time giving yourself an answer on the previous discussion. ;)
...but I doubt we would ever come close to the coherent place Tolkien envisioned for them. When and if we do, we won't even know that; there is no one to actually confirm it.
True.., but this is what makes more interesting discussions, and this is what makes thousands of scholars to "dig" into the work of Tolkien. :)
Because, in a way, the magnitude of historical time in his world you can't compare with any book , save only the Bible. :)

[Landroval]

disproving nothing.
You stated that the improvement was not part of Eru's plan. I just gave a quote which states otherwise. I begin to have doubts about how serious you are about this debate.
We could live her as she is - the mystery, or by the method of deduction we, somehow, could try to explain her origin.
Tolkien, at least made such attempt.
That "attempt" rather disqualifies your effort of using "deduction" to figure out her origin.
All the time you were advocating for taking Tolkien's words at the face value, quoting him as the final judgement on every issue, and now "have little reason to take this literary"?
You are aware that whatever I said, as a person, has zero significance to the idea itself that I am arguing for? We are debating ideas, not persons here. Whether the idea I argue is true or not does not depend on my person. Using this type of ad hominem logical fallacy, "tu quoque", only weakens your argument.

Where did I ever argue that none of Tolkien's ideas were expressed figuratively? You substitute my critic of erroneous interpretations with advocating strictly direct meanings.
Well, he has had different statements, often changing his opinion on this matter.
I don't think his actual opinion changed; he simply presented in its different facets. In the foreword he was discouraging the identification of a particular message, and I believe this is in relation to the allegory issue he had. He considered that the spiritual truths should not appear explicitly in a fairy tale, so I don't think we should rush to saying that his purpose was "CONVEYING the message about the events of long gone world". My statement was intended at tempering your drive to pointing "THIS is the message" without considering other factors.
I have a reason to think that by this words Tolkien accepted Goldberry neither a human, nor as an elf. He tried to fit her "more in tune with Tom", and on this statement I agree with you.
So, if you are agreeing their nature is similar, and if Tom is a mystery, then why resort to all these side-trackings?

Your position brings us even closer to Tolkien's statement that in every age there must be some mysteries, intended so by the author. I still doubt we can probe them, or that doing so may be more than barren speculation.

[Jon S.]

You folks have all of you got it wrong!

Goldberry is obviously Sugar Magnolia!!! :o

"Sugar Magnolia/Sunshine Daydream"
Words by Robert Hunter and Robert Weir

Sugar Magnolia blossom's blooming
Head's all empty and I don't care
Saw my baby down by the river
Knew she'd have to come up soon for air

Sweet blossom come on under the willow
We can have high times if you'll abide
We can discover the wonders of nature
Rolling in the rushes down by the riverside

She's got everything delightful
She's got everything I need
Takes the wheel when I'm seeing double
Pays my ticket when I speed

She come skimming through rays of violet
She can wade in a drop of dew
She don't come and I don't follow
Waits backstage while I sing to you

She can dance a Cajun rhythm
Jump like a Willys in four wheel drive
She's a summer love in the spring, fall and winter
She can make happy any man alive

Sugar magnolia
Ringin' that blue bell
Caught up in sunlight
Come on out singing
I'll walk you in the sunshine
Come on honey, come along with me

She's got everything delightful
She's got everything I need
A breeze in the pines in the summer night moonlight
Crazy in the sunlight yes indeed

Sometimes when the cuckoo's crying
When the moon is halfway down
Sometimes when the night is dying
I take me out and I wander round
I wander round

Sunshine daydream
Walk you the tall trees
Going where the wind goes
Blooming like a red rose
Breathing more freely
Light out singing
I'll walk you in the morning sunshine
Sunshine daydream
Walk you in the sunshine

[Jon S.]

HOLEY MOLEY!!! I am not the first to make this connection between Goldberry and the Grateful Dead. In fact, The Annotated Grateful Dead includes this email:

Date: Mon, 28 May 2001
EBrown1027@aol.com wrote:
Dear Mr. Dodd,

Your site is wonderful, and greatly appreciated by the new generation of Deadheads.

I was listening to Sugar Magnolia one day while reading J.R.R Tolkien's Fellowship of the Ring, and it occurred to me how much the girl being sung about is like the character Goldberry in the novel. She is described in the following verses.

I had an errand there: gathering water lilies
green leaves and lilies white to please my pretty lady
the last ere the year's end to keep them from the winter
to flower by her pretty feet til the snows are melted
Each year at summer's end I go to find them for her
in a wide pool, deep and clear, far down Withywindle
there they open first in spring and there they linger latest
By that pool long ago I found the River-daughter
fair young Goldberry, sitting in the rushes
Sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating.

It seemed especially similar to the line "Saw my baby down by the river" as well as "Rolling in the rushes; Down by the riverside". Hope this helps you, and keep up the great work!

Sincerely
Emily Brown

This is truly a case of parallel interpretation as I absolutely did not know of this email when posting my first post directly above!

[storm_krowe]

I think Goldberry and Tom Bombadil are actually a blending of the Mary & Christ and Adam & Eve stories (if you consider the Old Forest an Eden [sacred grove?]).
The association goes like this:
Water=woman=mother figure=Mary (with hints of Eve, created from Adam’s rib who was in turn created from clay from the Garden, a region described as lying in the midst of rivers.)
This point is bolstered by the association of lilies (which Tom gathered for Goldberry) with mother-son relationships.
Consider this from 800florals.com:
“Through the ages, allegorical tales have linked lilies to the sacrament of motherhood. Ancient fables tell us the lily sprang from the milk of Hera, the mythological Queen of Heaven. Roman mythology credits lilies to Juno, the queen of the gods [S_K: Note that Mary is called the Queen of Heaven]. The story goes that while Juno was nursing her son Hercules, excess milk fell from the sky. Although part of it remained above the earth (thus creating the Milky Way), the remainder fell to the earth, creating lilies.”
“Often called the "white-robed apostles of hope," lilies are said to have been found growing in the Garden of Gethsemane after Christ's agony. Tradition has it that the beautiful white blooms sprung up where drops of Christ's sweat fell to the ground in his final hours of sorrow and deep distress. At Easter time, Churches bank their altars and surround their crosses with masses of Easter Lilies, to commemorate the resurrection of Jesus Christ and hope of life everlasting.
“The pure white lily has long been associated with the Virgin Mary, too. In early paintings, the Angel Gabriel is pictured extending a branch of pure white lilies to the Virgin Mary, announcing that she is to be the mother of the Christ Child. In other paintings, saints are pictured bringing vases full of white lilies to Mary and the infant Jesus.”

Another point:
The ring corrupts the worldly desires of mortals (even those to do good). Perhaps Tom was immune from the ring’s effects because he was not geared toward mortal ambitions, but had motivations on a higher/separate plane (in Christ-like fashion)

Tolkien’s treatment, blurring the Mother-Son relationship into the Wife-Husband relationship is much like the Babylonian tale of Nimrod and Semiramis. Tradition has it that after Nimrod was slain by one of his uncles (A righteous son of Noah, as I recall), his queen, Semiramis, clung to power by claiming her son (with whom she was pregnant) was the reincarnated Nimrod.
This idea of Mother-Son-Husband lived on in subsequent pagan religions. (Eventually, worshipers began to focus on the Mother/Virgin/Love Goddess/Nature Goddess). This dynamic was then grafted into the Catholic Church in attempts to lure pagan converts.
Tolkien, as a devout Catholic and studied scholar, would no doubt be familiar with this association.

[Firenze]

This week on the LOTR podcast that I listen to (www.sqpn.com/?cat=34), host Father Roderick talks about the mystery of Tom Bombadil. It's very well done. I highly recommend it to all fans, Catholic or not. This podcast is interesting because Fr. Roderick takes his listeners on a journey through Middle-earth (via the LOTR online game) as he talks about the mythology and faith behind the stories. You don't have to be a Christian to enjoy this podcast, though. He makes no attempt to convert anyone. He is simply a huge fan who has a different perspective as a priest. I think any LOTR fan will love it.