A question to ponder

[Ælfwine]

One of the most magnificent questions I have come across regarding the importance of Tolkien's works was posted at TTF two years ago. I don't know if it has been posted here, but if it has, please forgive me for posting this:

We all know that Tolkien's work is an immense one, with many mythological and extraordinarily vast topics, stories, events, and epics. In fact, there is more mythology in Tolkien's work than in most religions today. It dwarfs(no pun intended) the Bible, Quran, and other sacred texts of religions around the world as it pertains to history. That being said, I have a question. Forgive me if this has already been brought up, I am new. I will first give a very simple hypothetical situation. Again, a very SIMPLE situation. Just go along with it. Say all the people of the earth are destroyed. The only thing remaining on the earth is dust. Another race from another planet land on earth, searching for forms of intelligent life. They find a single Bible, Quran, and all of Tolkien's works. They somehow manage to translate the books into their own language.
My question is this: Would the roles of these texts be reversed now that a new being has encountered them for the first time? Would Tolkien's works be considered the religious and/or historical texts and the Bible and Quran considered stories? Both sacred texts are much shorter than Tolkien's works, and Tolkien goes to depths beyond the Bible and Quran on a historical level. Look at the length of The Lord of the Rings alone. It's unbelievable. Who would blame a newcomer, foreign to these texts, in believing that Tolkien's works represented reality and the Bible and Quran represented fantasy. Ponder, reply, and be gentle, please.

Many thanks to Xoranix, whom I haven't seen around for a looong time, for bringing up this question.

[Beren3000]

A few things I don't get:

-When you say that the Bible is much shorter than Tolkien's work, which part(s) of the Bible do you mean exactly? Because the OT and the NT put together would be much longer than any Tolkien book I know of.

-Just because the Bible is shorter, how does that make it "shallower" than Tolkien's work?

After these 2 questions, I think my opinion is quite clear. The Bible has many layers of meaning to it, too. Much more layers than any human work could have.

[Ælfwine]

It isn't easy for me to reply on behalf of the original poster, but from the description as much shorter, I take it that he refers to the New Testament.
But of course, all of Tolkiens works put together does amount to quite a lot of pages.
Anyway, I don't think that the length of the works would be crucial when determining what is true and what is fiction. I think that how the works are written would be the determining factor. At least if the reader is completely unfamiliar with the works, and is able to read them with an unbiased attitude.

As the original poster said, the world of Tolkien is better described in depth historically.

[Valandil]

I'm certainly biased, so I would HOPE they would choose the Bible. :p

Hard for me to be objective on this one, so I'll just watch a bit. :)

[inked]

If these aliens had only the Bible, the Koran, and LOTR?

If their universal language translator worked for Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Arabic, English, and the subtleties of Elvish?

I think they would discover that the Bible was the original and the Koran and LOTR derivative.

This assumes they are objective and submit the works to analysis on the multiple levels of letters, words, phrases, concepts, development, and "moral of the story" comparisons. Equal attention to analysis on all levels to each book (eg, they all get source criticism, redaction criticism, etc). :)

[Attalus]

I agree with inked. I think any impartial observer would consider Tolkien's work to be derivative of the Bible. I won't comment on the Koran, being biased.

[brownjenkins]

excellent question!!

i think an alien observer would view them all as fiction... as i do ;)

one would assume that an alien race would either be somewhat existentialist... in which case they would see all creationist-type literature as "human" musings on what the universe is all about... or they would have there own sacred texts, and much like how a catholic sees a hindu as getting the details wrong, and vice versa, they would have the same built-in bias

all that said, i think the important part this question brings to mind is that tolkien's work is deep enough, detailed enough, and complete enough, to be considered to be just as much a valid belief system as other sacred texts by a neutral observer

imagine if 'hitchhiker's guide' was all that remained :p

[Valandil]

imagine if 'hitchhiker's guide' was all that remained :p

Yeah - and imagine if they read it and said, "How did THEY know!?!???" :eek: :confused:

[Radagast The Brown]

I think it depends about the aliens though - if they have religions in their own planet, I'd guess they can realise the Bible (and Koran maybe, don't know) are religious, while Tolkien isn't.. from the obvious reason, that in the Bible God is mentioned more times than Eru in LotR, and is described as one who controls everything that happens. Iluvatar us mentioned twice in LotR.
I also think that Tolkien's stories - like LotR - are a bit more fiction than the Bible. Think about it... will you find a magical powerful ring in the Biuble, or sometthing similar? Or a magical beast (dragon, balrog) created by the evil character? Or a huge spider?

[Rosie Gamgee]

Well, there's the dragon in Revelation.

Um, this is interesting.
I think that Tolkien's works would probably be taken as some of history, perhaps. Then again, if they could translate Tolkien's words, then perhaps they could translate the copyright page at the beginning that says 'fiction'.

I think the Bible would be taken as a religious guide, because it clearly is. Much of the Old Testament is rules and regulations. Almost all of the New Testament is instructions on following Christ's example.

I have never read the Quran, so I cannot speculate on that.

[Ælfwine]

If these aliens had only the Bible, the Koran, and LOTR?
Read the piece again: It said Tolkien's works. Not only LOTR. You'll have to throw in The Silmarillion as well, and I think that it will level the field considerably.

[Durin1]

It is unfortunate that the original question focuses only on the Bible and Koran. Being someone who has no affinity with either (being brought up on Eastern i.e. Indian, philosophy) i think it narrows the scope somewhat. My main reason for this is that i have found the bible and Koran full of dogma, laws and statements which do not allow (on the whole) debate. "This is the story and it is true" type of thing (btw i have read both the Bible and Koran). In contrast, Indian philosophy (as opposed to a particular religion) poses questions and theories, although some of these bound up in some of the historical and mythical stories of the time. For example, the Vedas, Mahabharata, Ramayana etc. (BTW, I am not Hindu either).

For me, Tolkien's is a psuedo-history with an edge of relgious philosophy, without it being too obvious.

If i was the alien, i would certainly choose Tolkien's work purely because i would find it as a form of entertainment rather that a collection of obscure advice on how to live our lives.

[inked]

AElfwine,
Throw in the Sil, then. Same answer, I think.

Durin 1,
Throw in the Eastern writings, too. Then the aliens will have more evidence of the distinctiveness of Western thought and highlight the derivative natures of the LOTR + Sil and Koran from the Bible.

Now if we are going to say "the works of Tolkein", I'll argue that LEAF BY NIGGLE as a short story will do more for the above rendered opinion than all of the HoME stuff together. But that's IMHO, of course.

And if we're going to expand to that level with Tolkein, maybe we ought to allow some commentaries on the Bible and the Koran and the Eastern writings as well, but do the aliens really live long enough to cover all that? :D

[Ælfwine]

And if we're going to expand to that level with Tolkein, maybe we ought to allow some commentaries on the Bible and the Koran and the Eastern writings as well, but do the aliens really live long enough to cover all that? :D
Well, at least it will be a sure way to make them leave Earth quickly... :D