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PippinTook
10-07-2004, 07:55 PM
Why can't Snape get the Defense Against the dark Arts position? Is it because he was a Death Eater and he might teach them bad stuff, or because Dumbledore doesn't really trust him -that- much? I mean, he obviously knows a whole lot about it, and Dumbledore seems to think he is good, so why can't he get the job? especially in book 5 when Dumbledore is forced to let Umbridge be on the staff.

Poor Snapey Wapey. *shudders* ok, that was weird.

Anywho, what are your thoughts, good Mooters?

Lizra
10-07-2004, 08:07 PM
I once asked..."I wonder why Snape wants the DADA position so badly?" Enquiring minds want to know both these things! :p

inked
10-07-2004, 11:47 PM
The only real data we have on that question is that it is rumoured that Snape wants the DADA job. And school rumors are usually unreliable in my recollection (after all, how many people really had cooties, anyway?). Besides good Potions masters have to be pretty rare. Snape seems to be excellent at that. And, come to think of it, Snape's failure to get the post provides good cover for his rejoining the Death Eaters as a spy. He could use it along with Occlumency to prevent Voldemort from discovering his lying. :eek:

azalea
10-08-2004, 02:32 PM
It has been mentioned at least twice that he has applied for it every year (once when Harry asked Dumbledore, and once when Umbridge asked Snape about it), so we do know he would like the job. But we don't know why he isn't given it, except that I think it was hinted (although it may have been my mind filling in the blanks) that his being around the Dark Arts any more than necessary might tempt him to start using them again. I don't think Dumbledore wants to be an enabler. :D

As to why he wants the job -- he's always been into the Dark Arts, and that seems to have been his first love, academically speaking. I happen to have the theory that his father used dark arts, and we know how things learned at an early age can be so ingrained in people. He knows he'd be good at it as well.
Plus, he may hate Voldie so much now that he wants to make sure those Death Eaters get a real you-know-what kicking from the future Aurors! Who knows? ;)

Nurvingiel
10-26-2004, 09:26 AM
I think Snape would be a great Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher, but who could possibly match him as a potions master?

He's unreasonably biased to Gryffindors in his class, but even they admit that he's a brilliant Potions master.

I think he's biased because he's cultivating Malfoy so he can get information from him. We know now that he's a spy for the Order.

Pytt
10-26-2004, 09:49 AM
we know he's knowledge in the dark arts, and thereafter DADA, is great. and i think he would have done great as DADA teachers. but i think maybe he might be tempted to use them again, and then, maybe, join voldemort.

and he is a reat Potion-maker, and i think it would be easy to find his equal.

i don't think he will be DADA teacher in the books, beacuse of thesee things.

Lalaith_Elf
11-07-2004, 03:08 PM
I think it's mainly because of his past.

But think about it, if Snape has gone back to Voldy (did he? Or was that matter all settled in Book 5? I really need to read the books again), then whether or not Snapes actions were honourable, Voldy could use Snape to his advantage. And if Snape was teaching DADA at Hogwarts then that could be a problem.

(Okay, hands up if that didn't make sense *puts hand up* It sounded good in my head... :o )

Beren3000
11-07-2004, 04:24 PM
Or MAYBE, Snape as a DADA teacher is reserved as a motif for one of the later books; that would make for a dark and exciting plot indeed!

Nurvingiel
11-07-2004, 05:26 PM
Book 5 Spoiler below:







Snape didn't go back to Voldemort, he's a mole for the Order. He pretends to be a Death Eater, when in fact he's gathering information for the Order to help overthrow Voldemort. You might notice he doesn't do anything evil, except harass people from Gryffindor. Aside from that fact that he hates Harry, I think he also does this to get Malfoy to trust him more, so he can get information out of him. Draco is a bit of a git, so this is entirely plausible.

Lalaith_Elf
11-07-2004, 07:35 PM
That's what I meant... he goes back to Voldy as a spy. Ah, but you never know what could happen. Voldemort is known to be very pursuasive.

Manveru
11-26-2004, 09:53 PM
speaking of which, why is malfoy allowed to go back to hogwarts? when it is clearly known that his whole family are death eaters? is it because voldemort hasnt officially gone public yet or something. do u think he'll be there in the 6th book now that everyone knows you know who is back? or is dumbledore so generous and forgiving that he thinks he can convert malfoy and others to his cause? cuz it seems to me hes teaching magic to future death eaters (kinda counter-productive)

Nurvingiel
11-27-2004, 10:07 AM
Well, I think Dumbledore would want to keep an eye on him. Plus, Malfoy might be an irritating git, but he actually hasn't done anything evil. Dumbledore wouldn't punish him for who his father is. I don't think Narcissa is a Death Eater either.

EDIT: He hasn't done anything evil that we know about anyway.

Telcontar_Dunedain
11-27-2004, 01:49 PM
But she was a follower and helper of Voldemort. Kreacher went to her with the information to try and get the prophercy.

sun-star
11-27-2004, 06:13 PM
Maybe Dumbledore thinks he can control Draco more if he's at Hogwarts. It's not like Draco's much of a threat anyway even if his parents are. His threats are always a bit pathetic and probably do more to put the students off Voldemort than encourage them to join him!

Manveru
11-28-2004, 09:11 PM
ya but chances are draco is going to grow up to b a death-eater, so its not really helping the situation by teaching him magic, plus didnt he attack harry on the train or something

inked
08-03-2007, 10:48 PM
NOW we can really discuss Snape. He's probably the best drawn character of the whole series and certainly the most ambivalent until the final byte of memory is served. What do you think of him now?

sun-star
08-06-2007, 08:29 AM
Snape was actually the aspect of Book 7 I was most disappointed with. I expected him to turn out to be on the good side and to have killed Dumbledore on D's orders, so that was fine - but I hoped he would have a better reason to fight against Voldemort than unrequited love for Lily. How boring! I wanted to end the book respecting and pitying Snape while recognising his flaws, and I think that's what JKR was trying to achieve, but I respect Snape less now that we know he was on the good side mainly because of a rather creepy schoolboy crush.

I also thought Snape's memories in the Pensieve, while interesting, were written in an uncharacteristically clumsy way for JKR. Everything was explained in one big information dump, conveniently providing all the answers in neat consecutive order. Disappointingly unimaginative.

inked
08-13-2007, 11:18 PM
He did have a better reason for fighting Voldemort, sunstar! I am a bit abashed that you miss genuine repentance and a lifetime of penitence and self-sacrifice as due to a schoolboy crush.

I therefore give you penance! DANTE and BEATRICE to be contemplated as parallel to SNAPE and LILY.

I am looking forward to your reply. :D

sun-star
08-14-2007, 03:57 AM
Don't you think that if Snape was really repentant, if he regretted anything about his behaviour other than that it lost him Lily, he would have really tried to reform his character after her death? Dante's love for Beatrice led him to a deeper understanding of divine love, drawing him away from the personal and specific to the eternal and universal. Snape, however, remained a cruel, spiteful, selfish person until his death. Leaving aside what he did as a Death Eater (and I'm not convinced that his work for the good side as a spy outweighed the evil he did to preserve his cover), as a teacher he tormented innocent children to the point where Neville is more afraid of Snape than anything else. He never tried to get over his hatred of James and Sirius and he projected his feelings for them on to Harry, without comprehrending that Lily would have wanted him to be kind to her orphaned son. Someone who was really penitent wouldn't have done these things or at least would have felt sorry for them - there's no sign that Snape did.

To me, there's just something so selfish about Snape's love - it only extends to Lily, not her family or the people she cares about. That's why I can't buy that Harry would ever name his son after him :D

Tessar
08-14-2007, 03:07 PM
Well, Harry did take a number of blows to the head... :D

RĂ­an
08-28-2007, 01:35 AM
Lol!

sun-star
08-29-2007, 06:09 AM
I think that's the only way to explain it :D

inked
08-29-2007, 09:39 AM
sunstar, is the only sign of repentance and reformation niceness? Dante, after all, had a pretty long interlude of failing Beatrice and it took heavenly intervention and trip through Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven to get him on the right road at the last. There was even the interlude of unfaithfulness with which Beatrice flogs him at the top of the Mount before Lethe that he may suffer the pangs of his choices.

Just asking!

sun-star
08-29-2007, 11:08 AM
I'm not expecting niceness, but refraining from deliberate cruelty would be a start!

inked
08-29-2007, 10:41 PM
sun-star, you sure are asking a lot of a mere convert to love. :cool:

Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane
09-05-2007, 03:36 PM
So, I haven't been here in while, but when I came back this was the first forum I checked. It is most definently my fav.

Anyway, Snape dislikes Harry because he looks just like James. So, he associates Harry even more with James who was deliberatly cruel to him and sees Harry as a representation for everything he lost. Also, I think a lot of his cruelty may have had something to do with Snape wanting all of the children to be better at magic, in essence, better at surviving Voldemort. That's just my little theory, and I only came up with it once I found out that Snape was on the Order's side. I tend to think the best of Snape. However, at his very end I think we did see Snape being as kind as he could. He risked Voldemort's extreme dipleasure by constantly asking to be allowed to go back into battle, to, we can assume, give Harry Dumbldore's last message. Going from the end of the book to the beginning, Snape tried to help George. Instead of letting George die, Snape tried to stop the Death Eater, it just happened to go wrong. Snape is still mean, and could definently be nicer...and I agree, for the most part, that Snape is a horrible person, but I think he did try, and that's what counts.

Going back to why he never got the job, I always assumed that Dumbldore didn't want him to get it because he believed that it was cursed. Again, just my little theory.

sun-star
09-10-2007, 10:19 AM
However, at his very end I think we did see Snape being as kind as he could. He risked Voldemort's extreme dipleasure by constantly asking to be allowed to go back into battle, to, we can assume, give Harry Dumbldore's last message. Going from the end of the book to the beginning, Snape tried to help George. Instead of letting George die, Snape tried to stop the Death Eater, it just happened to go wrong. Snape is still mean, and could definently be nicer...and I agree, for the most part, that Snape is a horrible person, but I think he did try, and that's what counts.

That's a good point. He did change in the end, and that does deserve admiration whatever his motives.

inked, I guess I'm just too much of a romantic :D. I've been reading A Tale of Two Cities and Snape comes off rather poorly in the unrequited love/sacrifice stakes next to Sydney Carton ;)

sisterandcousinandaunt
09-10-2007, 11:33 AM
but I respect Snape less now that we know he was on the good side mainly because of a rather creepy schoolboy crush.

Exactly! Well, I've always thought Rowling knew nothing about children, but here she's proved conclusively that she knows nothing about adults, either. Good Lord. The Maury Povitch production staff has to scour the population to come up with 30 year olds who still have something to prove to people who tormented them in Middle School, but she has several at the center of what we laughingly refer to as the "plot."

Snape hates Harry because of James, but he's willing to kill himself for Lily. Sure. Dumbledore gets an idea at 15 with his buddy that controls his behavior for 80 years. Tom Riddle comes back from the dead, more or less, so he can give the finger to his schoolmates. Don't any of these folks ever "get a life"?

The grown-ups I know aren't like that, honestly. Many of them can't even remember people they dated in High-school, much less ones in school with them earlier. Other concerns intervene. Even people with actual horror in their past (like Holocaust survivors) go on to new ideas.

I also thought Snape's memories in the Pensieve, while interesting, were written in an uncharacteristically clumsy way for JKR. Everything was explained in one big information dump, conveniently providing all the answers in neat consecutive order. Disappointingly unimaginative.Absolutely characteristic, I'd say. She drags in a device when she needs it, and discards it when she doesn't. She's written 7 books that pose as mysteries, but doesn't respect any mystery conventions.

inked
09-12-2007, 06:40 PM
That's a good point. He did change in the end, and that does deserve admiration whatever his motives.

inked, I guess I'm just too much of a romantic :D. I've been reading A Tale of Two Cities and Snape comes off rather poorly in the unrequited love/sacrifice stakes next to Sydney Carton ;)

Carlton? Sydney Carlton?

You might enjoy this thread: http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126
It's called UNREQUITED LOVE and you have to admit, that's a Romantic title!
:D

I do disagree with you and SaCaA about Snape. And about the memory dump. One of those was guaranteed by the importance of the Pensieve in the later books. Perhaps if Snape had died more slowly so as to allow Harry to have several interludes you both would be happier? Or would you have preferred Snape hid them like Horcruxes or Deathly Hallows to be discovered and utilized at leisure? ;)

brownjenkins
09-13-2007, 02:12 PM
Snape hates Harry because of James, but he's willing to kill himself for Lily. Sure. Dumbledore gets an idea at 15 with his buddy that controls his behavior for 80 years. Tom Riddle comes back from the dead, more or less, so he can give the finger to his schoolmates. Don't any of these folks ever "get a life"?

The grown-ups I know aren't like that, honestly. Many of them can't even remember people they dated in High-school, much less ones in school with them earlier. Other concerns intervene. Even people with actual horror in their past (like Holocaust survivors) go on to new ideas.

Good to know!

I can finally stop worrying about that kid, who's chair I pulled out from under him in fifth grade as a thoughtless schoolboy prank, coming back to terrorize me and my family when I least expect it. :D

sun-star
09-14-2007, 09:58 AM
Carlton? Sydney Carlton?

You might enjoy this thread: http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126
It's called UNREQUITED LOVE and you have to admit, that's a Romantic title!
:D

I do disagree with you and SaCaA about Snape. And about the memory dump. One of those was guaranteed by the importance of the Pensieve in the later books. Perhaps if Snape had died more slowly so as to allow Harry to have several interludes you both would be happier? Or would you have preferred Snape hid them like Horcruxes or Deathly Hallows to be discovered and utilized at leisure? ;)

No - "Harry Potter and the Quest for Snape's Memories" would have seriously irritated me! I suppose I should be glad they were all confined to one chapter :D.

I would have preferred Snape's story to be presented in a less linear, straightforward manner - with some gaps, some things left unexplained. These are supposed to be memories, not a tidy little biopic of Severus Snape! I know it was the last book and JKR was running out of time to wrap up an important plot, but she's usually very good at backstory - Prisoner of Azkaban and Goblet of Fire are both brilliant in this respect, and the latter even uses the Pensieve in a more interesting way than Deathly Hallows did. So I expected a bit more. But it was the only disappointing element in a book I otherwise loved.

sisterandcousinandaunt
09-16-2007, 10:02 AM
Good to know!

I can finally stop worrying about that kid, who's chair I pulled out from under him in fifth grade as a thoughtless schoolboy prank, coming back to terrorize me and my family when I least expect it. :D
Glad to be of help. :D

Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane
09-17-2007, 10:59 PM
...and the latter even uses the Pensieve in a more interesting way than Deathly Hallows did.


I dunno...didn't we find out almost everything we needed to know about Neville in that one singular event? Granted, it wasn't as long Snape's memories. But I relate the two in my mind through that.

My only problem with how Snape's story ended is that I feel like she put so much effort into making him an interesting character. One we suspected and despised but still wondered about his and what could make him so devilishly evil, then we find out "The Truth About Severus Snape"! It was so....already done. I mean, how many other stories out there (or subplots if you'd rather) are about a man who loses the 'love of his life', changes sides or personalities, and ends up scarificing themselves for the ultimate good? I liked Snape, and the glimpes we got of him were very vibrant, but I thought that his actual story was very flat.

As far as things happening in the past that can control your behavior for a very long time, I have to disagree, SaCaA. Dumbldore saw himself as a monster, could have possibly killed his sister, had to take down his friend (who subsequently wasted away in a prison), alienated his brother, and later in life, saw signs of his formal self in a man that would become known as Lord Voldemort. Yes, I do believe that that could affect him for 80 years.
Voldemort was a maniac and didn't come back from the dead to give the finger to his roommates. He had a crazy idea, a messed up childhood, probably DNA that had already scrapped the bottom of the gene pool barrel several times, and a mass following. I'd even come back from the dead for that.
The Snape one...well....I sort of agree there. But, I could see it happening. (I'm also a hopeless romantic...so I tend to lean toward the side of "anything for love"...which makes me very biased)

katya
09-17-2007, 11:21 PM
Little Severus and school-age Severus were probably pretty lonely... And it seemed like he was pretty close with Lily, "best friends" and such for a bit, not like he was just admiring her from afar. And it's not like he was the best socially adjusted boy ever either; he's kind of screwed up anyway. I can see him being obsessive about Lily just like with the dark arts.

inked
11-18-2007, 01:26 AM
Here is a SUPERB essay on Snape. You simply must go and read it in its entirety: http://rexluscus.livejournal.com/254445.html

Plus, over at hogwartsprofessor.com there is an excellent initiation of discussion on the correlation of Dante and Rowling (a point I have argued here before). You should check that out as well.

Happy Harrying!

Nurvingiel
11-23-2007, 02:00 PM
Wow, that was a great essay Inked! Thanks. :)