Why did the Balrog stay in Moria?

[Attalus]

I don't care if he had wings or not, why did he stay in Moria after the Dwarves were driven out? I am quite sure that Sauron would have welcomed him with open arms (one with a hidden knife in it). Did he imagine that he was holding a fortress for Melkor should he return? Did it remind him of Utumno or Thangorobrind? It just seems curious. Even Smaug got out a bit.

[Findegil]

Well, what he had done for centuries before was hidding before the wrath of the Valar. Imaging that since the War of Wrath he had not have any news from outside, at least not enough to understand that the Valar had turned her eyes away form Middle-Earth a bit. Thus he was smaybe still hidding in that nice little hole after he had "repacified" it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Nurvingiel]

Also, he would have had no particular allegiance to Sauron.

Maybe, since he was hiding from the Valar, he wouldn't want to attract unwanted attention by helping to take over the world.

[Lizra]

I just assumed he liked it down there, who needs a "boss"! ;)

[mewhmag]

if the fellowship would have taken the way over the mountains, which was not possible of course, they would not have encountered the balrog. the things that happened to Gandalf would not have happened. Saruman would stay the white...

see? ;)

[Valandil]

Remember too that he had 'just' woken up from a 5400 year nap... so he hangs around for another 1040 years... :p ;)

[Earniel]

I can imagine the army of the Valar and the ensuing destruction of the Thangorodrim scared the living daylight out of him if he scrawled away so deep under Moria. He probably didn't want to risk drawing any more attention to him at the time. I also have the feeling he deliberately stayed in Moria to avoid being drafted again into Sauron's forces. In Moria he was lord over all, outside Moria the best he could probably do was be second in command under Sauron.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

I can imagine the army of the Valar and the ensuing destruction of the Thangorodrim scared the living daylight out of him if he scrawled away so deep under Moria. He probably didn't want to risk drawing any more attention to him at the time. I also have the feeling he deliberately stayed in Moria to avoid being drafted again into Sauron's forces. In Moria he was lord over all, outside Moria the best he could probably do was be second in command under Sauron.

I still take issue with the notion that the Balrog is in any way subserviant to Sauron. They were both Maiar, and probably both just as old, being seduced by Morgoth in the Elder days. Hell, Gandalf and Saruman are Maiar too.

Their can be evil creatures in ME that are not in alliance. And I imagine sauron, while he would maintain some of his former command he had during the war of wrath, the balrog also had great power, and there is no reason to suggest that it even knows about Saurons survival of that war.

[Attalus]

I think that Sauron knew all about the Balrog. Orc spies in Moria would soon have sussed that out. How much interaction with the Orcs the Balrog had is open to speculation, though the fact that they were afraid of it suggests that there was not that much. There were probably some toadies to it, but I doubt that it would tolerate fools, at all.

[Michael Martinez]

What are your feelings on basic Balrog psychology and motivation?

[Valandil]

What are your feelings on basic Balrog psychology and motivation?

"Crush! Kill! Destroy!"
"Dominate! Defeat! Burn! Obliterate!"

Just to hazard a wild guess. :)

[Shelob's Hubby]

Why would the Balrog want to leave Moria? He was the lord of his domain, his time was his own, and he had the occasional orc to snack on.

[Pytt]

why in the good name of bobby sue is there two almost exactly alike posts going on at the same time?
i think about the post called sauron,moria and the balrog, or something very close to that.

[Attalus]

What are your feelings on basic Balrog psychology and motivation?Well, as you have pointed out on so many occasions, they are angelic beings, turned devils. They should have high level intelligence accompanied by malevolence and a lasting hatred for any being doing the will of Iluvatar or the Valar. JRRT says somewhere that the Balrog does not speak, but that is just to make his menace more ... frightening, I guess. They would be completely subservient to the will of Melkor, though not to the degree that the Nine were to Sauron. Judging by the alarcrity that they took to the skies to succor Melkor/Morgoth when Ungoliant was after him, they were very protective and not just as an extension of his will, or I'll bet he would have called them earlier. They seem to have great proficiency in magic, by Gandalf's testimony. They knew enough about generalship for Gothmog to be leader of Morgoth's armies, and enough about fighting to kill Fëanor, who was no lightweight. The fact that the Balrogs were hanging around Utumno, waiting for Melkor to reappear and not having split up to carve out individual kingdoms for themselves argues that they did not have individual ambitions, only to serve Melkor. This could be part of the answer to why the Balrog stayed in Moria: it really couldn't think of anything else to do, though this is the essential incongruity behind my question. Why would an angelic being choose to hang around a deserted Dwarven mine/mansion when great events were stirring in the outside world? What is your take on it?

[Michael Martinez]

I think that the story doesn't provide any motivation for the Balrog to leave Moria. It comes down to personal desire and ambition. It's primary objective seemed to be to avoid being punished by the Valar. Perhaps it was just seeking to accomplish as little as possible.

What if the Balrog was actually on the long slow path to recovery? What if it was unintentionally drawn into conflict with that recovery through its compulsion to act when the Fellowship entered Moria?

For example, Sauron strove to change his ways at the beginning of the Second Age, but eventually he fell back into old habits. The Balrog need not have been as repentent as Sauron had become, but it could certainly have been trying to avoid the spotlight precisely because it didn't want to become a dark lord.

Hence, it would have motivation to stay where it was from two directions: avoid drawing the attention of the Valar AND avoid drawing Sauron's wrath.

The curious thing about Balrogs is that they don't seem to act without direction, which is perhaps one reason why so many people regard them as little better than beasts. It could be that their malevolence has become so manifest that their thoughts are restricted to emotional cognition. Perhaps they really have abandoned rational thought, except when they are given direction by some higher purpose.

It could be like they were on an emotional binge of hatred, intolerance, cruelty, etc., and only occasionally surfaced to "sober up" whenever the alarm klaxons rang, or when Morgoth gave them specific missions.

So, perhaps, rather than being nihlistic or doministic like Morgoth and Sauron (respectively), the Balrogs could have been sort of hate-driven hedonists (or something like hedonists, with their focus and drives centering on anger and other dark emotions).

[Nurvingiel]

That's very interesting Michael. :) I think that not only was he unmotivated to help Sauron, but he also didn't have enough time!

Dwarves wake him up from a very long nap, he demolishes their kingdom, then before he has a chance to get his bearings, he loses a battle with an Istari! ;)

[Lefty Scaevola]

The curious thing about Balrogs is that they don't seem to act without direction, which is perhaps one reason why so many people regard them as little better than beasts. It could be that their malevolence has become so manifest that their thoughts are restricted to emotional cognition. Perhaps they really have abandoned rational thought, except when they are given direction by some higher purpose.How would this fit fit with Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, being a chief captain and army commander for Morgoth?

[Ñólendil]

Seems to fit in fine. The "higher purpose" would be he orders Morgoth gives Gothmog.

[Attalus]

Yeah, Morgoth orders Gothmog to be a general and he says, "You got it!" :D

[matthew]

Michael should be a shrink (If he isn't already) :D
I don't think the story gives a whole lot of reasons for the balrog to be there. I basically would agree with Michael that he is sort of "without orders", just waiting there.
I hate how people make the Balrog out to be lesser than Sauron. He was in the same order, and he wouldn't have been taking orders from him. It was just that the Balrog was such a servant of Morgoth that it had no interest in starting an empire, while Sauron did.


This November 2nd: The Sequel? :D :eek:

[Ælfwine]

What if there was in fact some sort of contact between Sauron and the Balrog of Moria?
Would it be in Sauron's best interest to keep the Balrog where he was? I can think of no better way to guard the passage than an angry Balrog. And with Saruman in control of the gap of Rohan, and Orcs holding the Northern Pass, any chance of help getting to Gondor from the West was slim. Unless a very powerful Maia came along. (Which he did).

[Pytt]

yes, that makes sense. noone can pass whitout Sauron knowing.
but what if Gandalf didn't slay the Balrog, would he(sauron) then force him out, if they had contact, to fight along his side in the battles? maybe at Minas thirith?

[Nurvingiel]

The Balrog is not answerable to Sauron. Balrog's work for Morgoth, and they are maiar IIRC, as is Sauron.

[Ælfwine]

The Balrog does not answer to Sauron as per se, but it was well known that Sauron was Morgoth's second-in-command.
I think that if Sauron had called, the Balrog would have come.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe but that doesn't mean the Balrog had any allegiance to Sauron. They were Maiar to as was Sauron and their personal chief (Gothmog) was Morgoth's battle general so to speak.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Maybe but that doesn't mean the Balrog had any allegiance to Sauron. They were Maiar to as was Sauron and their personal chief (Gothmog) was Morgoth's battle general so to speak.


Thats the whole point, dear Dunedain. They where both Maiar. And gee, bugger... Gandalf.....Saruman......Radagast......wern't they maiar also? Not all Maiar agree or even consult each other. Races can have different sides, and not be in league.

And kids....neither do Valar.

God that's a goooood point :D

[Radagast The Brown]

Thats the whole point, dear Dunedain. They where both Maiar. And gee, bugger... Gandalf.....Saruman......Radagast......wern't they maiar also? Not all Maiar agree or even consult each other. Races can have different sides, and not be in league.

And kids....neither do Valar.

God that's a goooood point :DYes, Valar and Maiar agree and consult with each other, of course. The thing is, even in the Istari there was a leader, there was one that's more powerful and has control over others, in a way.
With the Balrog and Sauron it would be even more clear - as Sauron and the Balrog's differences in powers are much bigger.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Yes, Valar and Maiar agree and consult with each other, of course. The thing is, even in the Istari there was a leader, there was one that's more powerful and has control over others, in a way.
With the Balrog and Sauron it would be even more clear - as Sauron and the Balrog's differences in powers are much bigger.


The point was, Rad, that not ALL maiar and Valar confer or are in league. Balrogs and, say Gandalf, or Melian, or Sauron dont have to be in communication or league just because they are of the same race. Melkor is a Valar, and he and Tulkas dont quite see eye to eye, do they?

[me9996]

What if he didn't want to be a "Hand-me-down" to soron?
(I think morgoth and soron are in some way related)


I'm still herting from asking the balrog! :eek:

[Attalus]

Morgoth and Sauron were related only in the sense that they were both immortal, angelic (or, rather, demonic) beings. Also, I have often speculated that the Balrog didn't join Sauron was devilish pride. "Better to reign in Moria than serve in Mordor," to paraphrase Milton.

[ItalianLegolas]

that is profound, maybe the Balrog was just to stupid to get out of Moria??

[Attalus]

that is profound, maybe the Balrog was just to stupid to get out of Moria??
*Looks around apprehensively to see if Michael Martinez read that* Balrogs are fallen Ainur, angelic beings. They are not stupid.

[ItalianLegolas]

it was just an idea...

[Pytt]

*Looks around apprehensively to see if Michael Martinez read that* Balrogs are fallen Ainur, angelic beings. They are not stupid.

yes, I think we can be happy Michael Martinez is not here..then he would have attacked in calm rage on that statement..and for myself I would have been loong away :rolleyes:

[ItalianLegolas]

who is Michael Martinez? :confused: ?

[Pytt]

a mooter which has an awful lot of information about middel earth. he popps up sometimes, posts an awful lot of logic posts, and dissapear for some months. I guess he has not been on after you joined.

[ItalianLegolas]

nope i don't think i've ever seen any of his posts

[Lenya]

I enjoy his comment a lot. They always seem to make so much sence. It's a shame he keeps disappearing :(

[Attalus]

who is Michael Martinez? :confused: ?Look here. (http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=12) You will see a lot of Michael. That's the Tolkien and Inklings forum on his his site, SF-Fandom.

[inked]

Well, we should consider the rent increase he would have had if he had upgraded to say, Osgiliath or Minas Morgul! And, he probably didn't want to move under the Misty Mountains with Gollum for a neighbor! So what choice did he have? Moria! ;)

[Lenya]

Thanx for the cool site. I've joined :D

[Valarauko5]

Wow. A Valarauco thread that's actually interesting.;) Actually being a "balrog" myself :cool: I would like to say that we are actually quite intelligent:D, but maybe not as, hmmm, skilled in the art of Dark Lording. Has anyone stopped to think WHERE the orcs in Moria came from? Perhaps my good buddy in Moria was developing his own kingdom but didn't have the training in it that Sauron had gotten from Morgoth? Plus he didn't have the head start. He was hiding in a hole from the big nasty Valar. So maybe Sauron didn't even know he was there. Remember that the Valarauco were very much Morgoths. Sauron was in charge of the Werewolf contingent. So it is quite possible that we could have had two dark lords fighting for power eventually. Imagine what would have happened if the "balrog" had found the ring?:eek:

[Coffeehouse]

I disagree with the view that the Balrog had the potential or possibly could have either taken the Ring for itself or tried form a kingdom of darkness of some sort.

To me the Balrog is so ancient, so detached from the more earthly conflicts of Middle Earth, that although it is a dark and evil being, it, I argue, does not share any alliance with Sauron nor the orcs of Moria. Albeit being the creation of Morgoth, it has become wild in the depths of Moria and can no longer be subdued. It's not dependent on anyone, and has thus become independent. Sauron does not control it and can, in this point of time in the 3rd Age, not control it. It is the epitome of darkness, no strings, much like the herders of Fangorn, the Ents, are detached from the wider conflict and really do not answer to anyone but themself. They are they epitome of the natural world.

And I gotta say again I love the depiction from the movies. It captures its ancient age and fiery nature perfectly:)

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk46/Springbok2009/Balrog.jpg

[Gordis]

One does not need to "share an alliance with Sauron" to steal and claim his Ring.;)

[Coffeehouse]

One does not need to "share an alliance with Sauron" to steal and claim his Ring.;)

Ah, but that is not what I wrote;) Two different points I put forward, not related.

What I first spelled out that is that I don't think the Balrog would be able to wield (I don't think it possessed the physical attribute for it) nor be interested in the Ring. Frankly I don't think it would crave it. The Balrog is, I think, the epitome of ancient darkness. It needs nothing to amplify this, it has become, the Durin's Bane Balrog, truly independent like Sauron never could be.

Then I point out that the Balrog is independent, and does not have an alliance with Sauron. It permits some Orcs to roam around Moria, but better with some stupid:), semi-evil creatures than annoying and loud, mining Dwarves.

[Valarauko5]

That's a good point. I agree that that is possible. It just seems to me that if a Balrog can be a General, see Gothmog, that it was intelligent enough to want to cause chaos and destruction. It seems to me that the Moria Balrog was just intelligent enough to realize that it couldn't get to the ring without killing Gandalf. Though it is a distinct possibility that, since Gandalf came into the world after the fall of Morgoth, it simply was taken off guard by a more powerful being than it first thought. But I prefer the ring theory. Why did the Balrog itself come up if the THOUSANDS of orcs could have easily taken care of the group? Remember that the ring draws all evil to it.

[Coffeehouse]

It's a good question. My thinking goes something along this line:

The thundering sound of 'doom-boom, doom-boom' echoed through the Mines, and the eruptoni of a clattering sound of hundreds or even thousands of orcs rushing through the tunnels above, the Balrog may have been rudely awaken. And for all we know it had been quite some time since such disturbance had penetrated down to the depths of where it lived and sound waves in the Mines of Moria would carry many miles in the ancient spaceous tunnels.

So the Balrog's attention is caught and rises upwards, perhaps to see who is causing such disturbance in its domain of darkness, perhaps to punish (maim, kill, eat) the Orcs for violating its relatively forgiving hospitality:rolleyes: Yet then something interesting happens. The Balrog, a corrupt being of the ancient world, a Maia just like Gandalf, perceives the presence of another Maia. It would be nothing less than astonished, a million thoughts streaming through its mind, and the awakening of long lost memories from the First Age: Why is there a Maia in Moria? What does it want? Are there more? Are they here for the Balrog? How did they find it?

The Balrog reaches the levels of where the Companionship is, perhaps realising that there are fewer than he thought, perhaps a sense of relief. Yet the Balrog won't stop there. It will face down whatever other powerful being roams through its Mines. By virtue of its proud, ancient dark evil, by virtue of its fierce independence, and by virtue of its sense of ownership of whatever goes on in the Mines of Moria. So it begins its demonstration of power..

"What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst into pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think." (Pg 345, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, FOTR)

[Valarauko5]

Good point. But I'm not positive it was really sleeping. Daddy balrog was always an ambitious guy.:D I think the more reasonable explanation is that he had control of the watcher at the gate (reasonable since it seems to be a lesser evil creature, easily controlled) and when he felt the presence of another Maia in his mines, he went about closing off the exit at the other end. Remember that when they see the fire they say "what is this new devilry?" and I think it's Gandalf who says it's prepared for them. Wouldn't that take time? Thus he prepared for them. The book even implies that they set the trap for the fellowship in the chamber. Though you're idea has quite a bit of merit. *thumbs up*

[Alcuin]

He went to Moria for the waters, but he was misinformed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ATo3vNmu0).