Moria, Sauron, and the Balrog

[Forkbeard]

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB

[Fenir_LacDanan]

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB


Well, Sauron was offering Moria, as you contend. Had the Dwarves wanted, say, Belegost, he would have offered them that as well. But Belegost was destroyed in the War of Wrath, so it cannot be given, and nor can Moria. The Balrog is not in Sauron's power. Sauron also offers the Dwarves back the three rings of the seven that he possesses.

Sauron the Deciever, is sometimes his name. He is a liar without shame, just like his former master, and the dwarves, just like the Eldar, were not decieved again.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB

he just a liar! :D

Seriously, though, Sauron would always use the power of desire for his own ends, eg: Dwarves would have desired moria, therefore, sauron offers it, men desire power, sauron offers it to easterlings and southrons, he just doesn't actually give it.

his power had been, and always would have been, the predatory nature towards anybody who has a desire for something.

[Valandil]

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB

Kind of lying, but in a way, kind of telling the truth. The (unknown ;) )horseman tells them they would get those three rings and that Moria would be theirs forever. That COULD be as a 'final resting place'... as it was for Balin.

If they DID give news (leading to the 'capture and conviction' of one said hobbit), Sauron may have given them the three rings (for which he presumably had no use... they were possibly 'geared for dwarves') and sent them on their way to Moria, and they would have joined Balin & Company (as 'permanent' inhabitants :eek: ). The rings would only fuel their desire to return to Moria and delve its riches.

OR... Sauron may have given them neither rings NOR tried to make good on his promise.

Sauron may have been on good terms with the Balrog... they must have known each other a couple ages before. And I suspect Orcs could have traveled and brought news from one place to another... so that word of Balin's arrival there - and his eventual destruction - would have reached Sauron.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Some interesting concepts, Val, I believe that it could have been a mixture of things (covering myself from all angles :p )

[Attalus]

I'm with those that way that Sauron was just lied. Dain said, at the Council of Elrond, We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old. Once they told where the Shire lay, and who Bilbo was, the cat would have been out of the bag, and how could the Dwarves enforce their contract?

[Wayfarer]

Given that Orcs from Mordor, Moria, and Isengard were working together to capture the Ring, I don't think it's impossible that Sauron could have been allies with the Balrog.

[Attalus]

Given that Orcs from Mordor, Moria, and Isengard were working together to capture the Ring, I don't think it's impossible that Sauron could have been allies with the Balrog.Oh, I entirely agree. Certainly they knew each other. As somebody says, it is difficult to know when those foul folk are cooperating or cheating each other.

[Beren3000]

I have nothing new to add to the discussion. Just a small comment:
Is Moria Sauron's to promise?
When Sauron regained his Ring it was supposedly a matter of time before all of ME fell to his reign. So technically, if he intended to keep his end of the bargain he could have.

[Forkbeard]

I'm with those that way that Sauron was just lied. Dain said, at the Council of Elrond, Once they told where the Shire lay, and who Bilbo was, the cat would have been out of the bag, and how could the Dwarves enforce their contract?

I'll pick on Attalus, simply because he's the last in the string as I start to write!

But I'm not with those that say Sauron just lied. I think that's too easy. Sauron after all went through a lot of trouble to regather the Dwarvish rings...is he lieing about giving them to Dain? If not, then how do we know he's lieing about Moria? If so, why go through the trouble of getting them back if not to try and bribe the dwarves? So I think just saying that Sauron just lied is just too easy.

Deceit by the way, doesn't mean to just lie. It means to decieve, a process that works best if there is some truth mixed in.

Which is why I think Val's suggestion may have a good deal of merit---he'd give them Moria all right...lots of little dwarf bones in the main hall forever! MWWAAAHHHHAAAAAAHHHAAAA

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe he would try again to enslave the Dain as he did to the Nazgûl.

[Attalus]

I'll pick on Attalus, simply because he's the last in the string as I start to write!

But I'm not with those that say Sauron just lied. I think that's too easy. Sauron after all went through a lot of trouble to regather the Dwarvish rings...is he lieing about giving them to Dain? If not, then how do we know he's lieing about Moria? If so, why go through the trouble of getting them back if not to try and bribe the dwarves? So I think just saying that Sauron just lied is just too easy.

Deceit by the way, doesn't mean to just lie. It means to decieve, a process that works best if there is some truth mixed in.

Which is why I think Val's suggestion may have a good deal of merit---he'd give them Moria all right...lots of little dwarf bones in the main hall forever! MWWAAAHHHHAAAAAAHHHAAAA

FBTrue, but to a tyrant like Sauron, losing anything of his realm would be difficult. I can see a scenario where the Dwarves betray Bilbo, and Sauron regains the Ring, and he uses the offer to give Moria back to feed the Dwarves to the Balrog, who would have attacked them whether Sauron willed it or no. Whether or not the Balrog knew much about Sauron, I don't think that there is much doubt that Sauron knew what Durin's Bane was.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

But I'm not with those that say Sauron just lied. I think that's too easy. Sauron after all went through a lot of trouble to regather the Dwarvish rings...is he lieing about giving them to Dain? If not, then how do we know he's lieing about Moria? If so, why go through the trouble of getting them back if not to try and bribe the dwarves? So I think just saying that Sauron just lied is just too easy.
FB


Sauron is a liar, and he has lied before. The betrayal of Barahir by Gorlim springs to mind. Thats the reason the dwarves are unwilling to listen to him, because they know that Sauron wont give them Moria and the dwarvish rings he has.

And as you say, he went to a lot of trouble to get the rings off the dwarves in the first place. So why then would he turn around and give them back? He'll offer anything to get the One Ring, and when he gets that, what power in middle-earth is there that will make him keep his word?

Thats the reason the rings of power exist in the first place. Sauron didn't help in their making out of the goodness of his own heart, after all. :)

[Count Comfect]

Well, it is quite possible Sauron was willing to give those dwarf rings up for the Ruling Ring (after all, with that, who CARES about the dwarf rings). That part could be true, and the part about Moria (almost certainly, I think) false, and so be more effective deception with half true, half false.

I think the Moria part is likely false also because Sauron would have no reason to take the effort to eradicate the Balrog just for Dain's people... so he'll promise Moria, but not deliver because it would be a waste of the effort he's stretching towards Gondor.

I do like the twist in the Balin-style of Forever, though :)

[Pytt]

off course sauron knew the balrog was there.
i don't think the balrog would go out of its little hole, to serve sauron, and i think sauron thought it was ok, beacuse when the balrog was there, the dwarfs would have no chance to reclaim moria.
also, if the balrog had begun traveling over to Mordor, i think alot of people, eho don't should have seen it, actually have seen it.
but i think sauron could have forced the balrog out, if he thought he would have need for him.

[Olmer]

but i think sauron could have forced the balrog out, if he thought he would have need for him.
I think not.
If he neded a Northern passes to get to Eriador it means that Moria's passes was out of his reach. Barlog was just indifferent to all above the ground games, but he wouldn't like the disturbance and eventual occupation of his wast and quiet domain.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

off course sauron knew the balrog was there.
i don't think the balrog would go out of its little hole, to serve sauron, and i think sauron thought it was ok, beacuse when the balrog was there, the dwarfs would have no chance to reclaim moria.
also, if the balrog had begun traveling over to Mordor, i think alot of people, eho don't should have seen it, actually have seen it.
but i think sauron could have forced the balrog out, if he thought he would have need for him.

I agree.

Sauron would have approved of an ancient evil denying the dwarves Moria, just as he approved of Shelob inhabiting the pass of Cirith Ungol. I forget the quote, but in LoTR it mentions that Sauron doesn't mind the loss of a few orcs now and again to allow such a great evil as Shelob to dwell near his borders. And could he find a better guard for that pass into Mordor?

And as to driving the balrog out of moria, he could should he wish, for Balrogs are not invincible, and Gandalf himself took him down alone, at the cost of his own life. Perhaps 100 000 orcs and 9 nazgul and a Dark Lord might have been more effective. :D

Though I could never see a reason for it to happen. Sauron could never find a better evil creature to drive the dwarves from Khazad Dum.

[Forkbeard]

Sauron is a liar, and he has lied before. The betrayal of Barahir by Gorlim springs to mind. Thats the reason the dwarves are unwilling to listen to him, because they know that Sauron wont give them Moria and the dwarvish rings he has.

I don't recall the specifics on this one....well, the dwarves aren't "unwilling to listen" else it seems to me that their answer would have an immediate "no thanks" rather than a "Let us think about it...." Distrustful of Sauron yes, unwilling, hmmmm.

And as you say, he went to a lot of trouble to get the rings off the dwarves in the first place. So why then would he turn around and give them back?

Bribery? Some measure of mastery is better than none...and of course he though he never completely mastered the dwarves who wore the rings, he at least could keep tabs on them easier.


He'll offer anything to get the One Ring, and when he gets that, what power in middle-earth is there that will make him keep his word?

Sure, that's one way of looking at it. But the think with Sauron is that he never quite breaks his word does he? I mean, he doesn't say X, and then does not-X. He says X, does X, but along with the X comes destructive Y and Z that he sort of forgot to mention. Hence deception, rather than out and out telling complete untruths....but then I might be overlooking somethings.

Thats the reason the rings of power exist in the first place. Sauron didn't help in their making out of the goodness of his own heart, after all. :)

Again, I agree, except that this doesn't make him a liar, but a deceiver. They are not quite the same thing....so what was the deception about Moria? Would he have simply left the Balrog there and then told the dwarves Moria was theirs? Or would he have moved the Balrog out and hatched some other plan?

FB

[Attalus]

As I posted above, I think he would have just left the Balrog there, and when the Dwarves showed up, the joke would have been on them. They didn't know, at least going by Gloin's speech at the Council and Gimli's reaction to the sight of the Balrog, that Durin's Bane was still there, or at least, might not be there. If Sauron called off his Orcs, the optimists would think (that is, the ones that thought the Darves were hemmed in a narrow place and yearned after Moria, those that hadn't gone with Balin).

[Fenir_LacDanan]

I don't recall the specifics on this one

Sure, that's one way of looking at it. But the think with Sauron is that he never quite breaks his word does he? I mean, he doesn't say X, and then does not-X. He says X, does X, but along with the X comes destructive Y and Z that he sort of forgot to mention. Hence deception, rather than out and out telling complete untruths....but then I might be overlooking somethings.

Again, I agree, except that this doesn't make him a liar, but a deceiver. They are not quite the same thing....

FB

If your unfamiliar with the specifics, dear FB, then perhaps you shouldn't throw your hat into the ring? :p

Sauron has lied. The above "specific" is an example of this. Its in Silmarillion. He offers Gorlim the human his freedom and his wife's safe return, in return for the betrayal of Barahir's lair's location. Gorlim does this, and Sauron kills him on the spot.

Now how is that not a lie?

And in Akallabeth, also in Silmarillion, he fills Ar Pharazon, the human king of westernesse, with lies and deceptions. Yes, deception, and also lies.

Oh, and a deciever IS a liar, they are one and the same thing.

This is from dictionary.com :

Lie.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

To decieve someone, you offer or tell them something that is untrue for a particular goal, and to offer something that is untrue, or to say something that is untrue, is a lie. But never mind :)

[Olmer]

Oh, and a deciever IS a liar, they are one and the same thing. :)
No, they are not. It's a big difference between this two words.
You can deceive without lying just by withholding some information. (Usual telemarketers ruse ;) )
But you can't lie without deceiving.
In a way a deceiver is a liar, but it not the same thing according to the law.
So, Forkbeard's depiction of Sauron's tactic ( Saying X and doing X, but along comes Z and Y, which he "forgot" to mention) is more in tune with his name : Sauron the Deceiver.

[Count Comfect]

As an utterly minor point, the deception of Gorlim is actually Morgoth in the Lay of Leithian (although I believe it is Sauron in the Sil) so there is some doubt as to whether Sauron did it.

But he definitely lies to Ar-Pharazon with the whole "you will become the ruler of the West" bit.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

As an utterly minor point, the deception of Gorlim is actually Morgoth in the Lay of Leithian (although I believe it is Sauron in the Sil) so there is some doubt as to whether Sauron did it.

But he definitely lies to Ar-Pharazon with the whole "you will become the ruler of the West" bit.


So, thank you CC for making my point. If he lied to Ar-Pharazon, he is a LIAR!!! :p :p

[Nurvingiel]

Does it really matter if Sauron is a liar? I think it's pretty clear that he didn't care about the Dwarves. He either would have given them Moria, and left them to the Balrog (if he knew about it). Or gone back on his promise because he's evil.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i think technically sauron was a liar,
remember after the ruin of beleriand, he humbled himself,
and yet would not suffer to be taken to valinor, to
receive the judgement of mandos...

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Does it really matter if Sauron is a liar? I think it's pretty clear that he didn't care about the Dwarves. He either would have given them Moria, and left them to the Balrog (if he knew about it). Or gone back on his promise because he's evil.

Your right, it doesn't matter what you call Sauron. His actions speak for him.

And the only reason we are actually discussing if Sauron Gorthaur; the servant of Morgoth the Black Enemy of the world, and whom in his own time became a dark lord himself, who laid waste to Eregion, caused the downfall of Numenor, Slew Finrod Felagund, and became the greatest evil in ME since the defeat of his master; is a liar, which he clearly is, is due to an earlier post by ForkBeard.

Gotta love that sarcasm. :D

[Forkbeard]

And in Akallabeth, also in Silmarillion, he fills Ar Pharazon, the human king of westernesse, with lies and deceptions. Yes, deception, and also lies.

SOrt of. The text in Appendix A does use the word "lied" for Sauron...but Sauron really only fanned the flame of what the grumbling against the ban was already saying. And he didn't tell an untruth exactly: it is precisely true that those who possessed the Blessed Realm were immortal! Where the untruth comes in is in the idea that the two go together.

Oh, and a deciever IS a liar, they are one and the same thing.

This is from dictionary.com :

Lie.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

To decieve someone, you offer or tell them something that is untrue for a particular goal, and to offer something that is untrue, or to say something that is untrue, is a lie. But never mind :)


YOu have the equation backward, I'm afraid. A liar is a deceiver, not every deception is necessarily based on a lie. To take a LoTR example: Bilbo has Frodo wear his mail shirt under his travel cloak, "There's more about you now than appears on the surface." That's a deception, but it isn't a lie.

FB

[Forkbeard]

No, they are not. It's a big difference between this two words.
You can deceive without lying just by withholding some information. (Usual telemarketers ruse ;) )
But you can't lie without deceiving.
In a way a deceiver is a liar, but it not the same thing according to the law.
So, Forkbeard's depiction of Sauron's tactic ( Saying X and doing X, but along comes Z and Y, which he "forgot" to mention) is more in tune with his name : Sauron the Deceiver.

Thanks Olmer, I should have read the entire thread before responding.

FB

[Forkbeard]

Does it really matter if Sauron is a liar? I think it's pretty clear that he didn't care about the Dwarves. He either would have given them Moria, and left them to the Balrog (if he knew about it). Or gone back on his promise because he's evil.

I don't know if it matters or not, I'm curious is all. Did he just simply lie about giving the Dwarves Moria? Or just what was his deception? Related to this are other questions we've touched on: how much did the Dwarves know about the 7? What was the relationship of the Balrog to Sauron? Why did the Balrog stay in Moria, the subject of another thread? Why, if Sauron wasn't to be trusted, don't the Dwarves just flat out refuse, but instead delay? It seems to me those are all related to discussing my original question.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Bilbo has Frodo wear his mail shirt under his travel cloak, "There's more about you now than appears on the surface." That's a deception, but it isn't a lie.
Not really deception either. He never said anything about it not being there, he just never said anything about it being there.

[Forkbeard]

i think technically sauron was a liar,
remember after the ruin of beleriand, he humbled himself,
and yet would not suffer to be taken to valinor, to
receive the judgement of mandos...

Tolkien himself seems to have different takes on this. IN Letter 131 he says that Sauron at first in the SA began with good motives and worked to rebuild Middle Earth, but over time his pride got the better of him and he again turned to evil.

In a later letter though he seems to indicate that Sauron deceived the Valar from the beginning and that his contrition was false. I can't find that one right now, but will try to take time to do so.

In any event, since Tolkien isn't clear about it, I'm not sure we can be either.

FB

[Forkbeard]

Not really deception either. He never said anything about it not being there, he just never said anything about it being there.

a) How does that make it any less a deception?

b) even if we grant your point, it doesn't do anything to address the overall point I was making.

[Forkbeard]

Your right, it doesn't matter what you call Sauron. His actions speak for him.

And the only reason we are actually discussing if Sauron Gorthaur; the servant of Morgoth the Black Enemy of the world, and whom in his own time became a dark lord himself, who laid waste to Eregion, caused the downfall of Numenor, Slew Finrod Felagund, and became the greatest evil in ME since the defeat of him master; is a liar, which he clearly is, is due to an earlier post by ForkBeard.

Gotta love that sarcasm. :D

Perhaps...but then no one demanded you participate in the thread. If you don't want to discuss Sauron and whether he lied or just what the nature of his deception was, then don't. QED.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Perhaps...but then no one demanded you participate in the thread. If you don't want to discuss Sauron and whether he lied or just what the nature of his deception was, then don't. QED.


Steady on slick, steady on. If you want to brawl, then you perhaps picked the wrong mooter. I aint actually here for that mate, so anyway.

Have you read the Silmarillion? Because if you haven't then its like trying to sprint before you can crawl, mate.

In sil, the text of which you have already stated that you are "unfamiliar with", Sauron is quite clearly a liar, because, geeeeeeeeeee he LIES to everyone!! [Edited rest of post -- azalea]

:D

[Forkbeard]

Steady on slick, steady on. If you want to brawl, then you perhaps picked the wrong mooter. I aint actually here for that mate, so anyway.

No, I'm merely pointing out that you seem to dislike the question and so one wonders why you resort to ridicule (which I think you have confused for sarcasm) in a thread the topic of which you have interest in in the first place? No "slick" or "brawl" intended.

Have you read the Silmarillion? Because if you haven't then its like trying to sprint before you can crawl, mate.
A) Yes I have read the Silm, "slick"
B) You might have noted that this forum is Lord of the Rings forum, no extra knowledge is assumed, so when someone asks you to explain a reference to the Silm it is polite to answer with the details instead of this kind of material, don't you agree?

In sil, the text of which you have already stated that you are "unfamiliar with", Sauron is quite clearly a liar, because, geeeeeeeeeee he LIES to everyone!!

I think you need to go back and reread both the earlier post and the Silm. Here's why: first, I didn't say I was unfamiliar with the Silmarillion. I said I wasn't immediately familiar with the details of the Gorlim story that you referred to--considering that in the entire Silm it takes less than a page to tell. Perhaps you have the entire thing memorized or carry with you at all times, but I don't, and I don't recall the details of every story referred to and am not always in a position to check. That's why I ask the kind souls here to be more forthcoming with the details. I'm sorry if that offends your sense of speaking authoritatively or whatever.

Second, though, is that the story of Gorlim does not establish your point. a) as already pointed out to you by the Count, there is a different version of the story elsewhere. More importantly b) Gorlim makes Sauron the offer--release me and my wife from your service and I will tell where to find Barahir. Sauron agrees, Gorlim spills his guts; and then Sauron tells him his wife is dead, and Gorlim will be released from Sauron's service too....by a cruel death. Deception? Absolutely yes! Lie? No, no lie is involved. And most interestingly is that unlike your characterization of Sauron, Sauron only agreed to Gorlim's offer, he made no promises and then did the opposite as you described.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

I think you need to go back and reread both the earlier post and the Silm. Here's why: first, I didn't say I was unfamiliar with the Silmarillion. I said I wasn't immediately familiar with the details of the Gorlim story that you referred to--considering that in the entire Silm it takes less than a page to tell. Perhaps you have the entire thing memorized or carry with you at all times, but I don't, and I don't recall the details of every story referred to and am not always in a position to check. That's why I ask the kind souls here to be more forthcoming with the details. I'm sorry if that offends your sense of speaking authoritatively or whatever.

Second, though, is that the story of Gorlim does not establish your point. a) as already pointed out to you by the Count, there is a different version of the story elsewhere. More importantly b) Gorlim makes Sauron the offer--release me and my wife from your service and I will tell where to find Barahir. Sauron agrees, Gorlim spills his guts; and then Sauron tells him his wife is dead, and Gorlim will be released from Sauron's service too....by a cruel death. Deception? Absolutely yes! Lie? No, no lie is involved. And most interestingly is that unlike your characterization of Sauron, Sauron only agreed to Gorlim's offer, he made no promises and then did the opposite as you described.

My god man, this is getting tiresome.
[Edited]
Sauron lies to Ar Pharazon in Akalabeth. He says that he can invade Valinor and live forever, and that he can defeat the Valar in battle, things which Sauron knows to be false. Therefore, he lied to Ar Pharazon. A two year old would understand that. Why do you keep defending Sauron?
[Edited]
And if you, as you have done, make a claim such as, say, Sauron is not a liar, we should be free as mooters to draw upon ANY relevant data so as to explore the point in detail.
[Edited]

[Earniel]

Please discuss the topic without further personal attacks, thank you.

[Forkbeard]

[Edited portion of quoted post]
[Edited portion of response]
I've attempted to be neutral in my posts to you, yet you seem to think that I'm itchin' for a fight. I'm itchin' for a good discussion, but not a brawl, but that it obviously not how I'm being perceived.
[Edited]

Sauron lies to Ar Pharazon in Akalabeth. He says that he can invade Valinor and live forever, and that he can defeat the Valar in battle, things which Sauron knows to be false.

Now was that so difficult? But it still doesn't justify just saying that Sauron lied to the dwarves. Unlike the deception of Numenor in which Sauron merely told untruths that fanned the flames of thoughts that had already occurred and been in the hearts of the Numenoreans for generations, here he promises something concrete and measurable. I think it is just too easy to say "he lied" and let it go; I think if that were the case, the dwarves wouldn't even have bothered to listen but would have rejected the offer out of hand.

Why do you keep defending Sauron?
Let me see, calling him a deceiver is a defense? I find that odd.

[Edited portions of response to post that has now been edited.]
I merely pointed out that for the purposes of this forum, intimate knowledge of the SIlm isn't required.
[Edited]

Read the forum rules.

And if you, as you have done, make a claim such as, say, Sauron is not a liar, we should be free as mooters to draw upon ANY relevant data so as to explore the point in detail.

This contains two things I didn't say. I never said that Sauron wasn't a liar. The question is whether he lied in the embassy to Dain or not, and in pointing out that many of the examples of Sauron lieing that have been brought out aren't really lies but deceptions, such as your Gorlim example.

And of course you're free to draw on any relevant data.

[Edited]

So back to the question: where do we have Sauron lieing by promising A, and then not delivering, as in the situation with the Dwarves?

FB

[Wayfarer]

So back to the question: where do we have Sauron lieing by promising A, and then not delivering, as in the situation with the Dwarves?

More importantly, why would that be something he wanted to do? The Dwarven rings were really no use to him, and (I get the impression) they had previously proved instrumental in destroying and scattering many of the most dangerous dwarf-families.

[Valandil]

More importantly, why would that be something he wanted to do? The Dwarven rings were really no use to him, and (I get the impression) they had previously proved instrumental in destroying and scattering many of the most dangerous dwarf-families.

Hmmm... so that perhaps a SECOND go-round with giving the Durin-ring back to Durin's Folk would enhance the chances of destroying them?

Plausible... :)

[azalea]

Guys, I had to edit a bunch of off-topic flame bait. PLEASE take personal discussion off the board (i.e., PMs), or try to ignore rude comments. Better yet, don't make rude personal comments to begin with. Thank you in advance for your future cooperation in this matter, and I appreciate your understanding.