The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 2: The Council of Elrond

[Finrod Felagund]

Summary

So...this chapter has the least action of almost any other chapter in the Lord of the Rings...it is basically all talk.


The chapter begins with Frodo waking up, taking a walk with Sam and meeting up wih Gandalf and Bilbo.

Then the Council begins.

There are 11 speakers in this chapter:
Bilbo
Gandalf
Frodo
Sam
Elrond
Gloin
Boromir
Aragorn
Legolas
Galdor of the Havens
Erestor
Glorfindel

And in addition 9 more characters are quoted directly
Dain
the Messenger from Mordor
Isildur
Saruman
Radagast
Denethor
Barliman Butterbur
Gwaihir
the Gaffer

Not to mention counless characters who mentioned in detail and in passing


We begin with Gloin's recounting of Balins expedition to Moria and the subsequent loss of contact. And of Sauron's messenger asking for information about hobbits and a ring, "a little ring, the least of rings...but a trifle that Sauron fancies"

[Finrod Felagund]

Elond then recounts the history of the First age, of Numenor and its fall and of the subsequent formation of Gondor and Arnor.

The Last Alliance is spoken of, and Frodo is suprised when he realizes that Elrond was indeed present for most of the events he is speaking of.

He speaks of Isildur's claim on the ring, and its loss at the Battle of the Gladden Fields. He tells of the decline of both Arnor and Gondor.

At this point Boromir explains his errand, how he and Faramir (who is not yet called Faramir) had a dream, and how Denethor sent him to seek the answer in Rivendell.

At this point Elrond asks Frodo to bring out the ring.
Aragorn is revealed as Isildur's heir, and Boromir, suprised, is reprimanded by Bilbo's poem (All that is gold does not glitter...) for his disbelief.
And Aragorn explains how the Rangers have long protected the north from evil.

Then Bilbo's tale is told...Wholly new to some, partly new to Gloin, and familiar to others. And Frodo tells his story so far.

Then, after being questioned by both Frodo and Galdor, Gandalf tells of his search for the ring, his lulling by Saruman at the White Council, who insisted the ring was forever lost, of his search for answers and discovery of Isildur's scroll, and of the Hunt for Gollum.
Aragorn continues this tale and we hear Legolas speak for the first time, bringing the news that Gollum has escaped.

Finally we hear of Gandalf's meeting with Radagast and Saruman's betrayal, and the rescue by Gwaihir.
And of Gandalf's journey with Shadowfax to Bree, Weathertop and eventually Rivendell.

Questions are asked, whether Tom Bombadil or the Sea are options for hiding the ring. Both are shot down. Bilbo then says he will take the ring, which Elrond will not allow and finally Frodo says he will take the ring...

And Sam burst out and says Frodo must not go alone.

Elrond agrees...and appoints Sam to accompany Frodo. And the Chapter ends.

[Finrod Felagund]

You have no idea how hard it is to Summarize 43 pages of dialogue.

The fact that Tolkien could pull this chapter off at all is a testimony to his literary genius!

[Olmer]

We begin with Gloin's recounting of Balins expedition to Moria and the subsequent loss of contact. And of Sauron's messenger asking for information about hobbits and a ring, "a little ring, the least of rings...but a trifle that Sauron fancies"
Yes, this is VERY overloaded chapter! A lot to discuss...
So, let start an avalachie. ;) :)

Since you began with Gloin's recounting, I will say some things concerning the Dwarves.

I have a very strong suspicion, that they might had been left behind the board.
But Sauron has interfered.
Precisely from him the Lonely Mountain has received the information about an upcoming Big Game.�As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this…that you should find this thief and get from him a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole�- says a messenger-nazgul, and promises a “gold mountains : “Find it and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever.
Sauron did not even think, that the Dwarves will be bought on his promises. The purpose of this emissary - to include them in the game and to provoke on squabble with Elves.. The difficulty was : that it's not very easy task to pull out a dwarf from the mountain. Нe had to send the Nazgul for 3 (!) times and methodically pound in the same place.
Finally they got it!. Dain began to toss, woke up and became agitated: what if the Elves will seize the Ring ? A nightmare! Anything, but this!
And in the Rivendell goes as an observer not anybody else, but specifically Gloin, who feels, to say the least, antipathy to elves. �You were less tender to me!� said Gloin with a flash if his eyes, as old memories were stirred of his imprisonment in the deep places of the Elven-king’s halls�
If daddy still hides his demeanor under saccharine politeness , his son’s aversion is less concealed. At parting Gimli’s animosity breaks through. �Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens, says he to Elrond. “ I do not believe it’s your true plans about the Fellowship� - if you translate his words. However, it is lyric.

So Elrond was compelled to include the dwarf in the Company of the Ring, and he goes more as an observer from allies, rather than Frodo’s bodyguard. If events will start to develop in undesirable for Durin’s Folk way, Gimli will be obliged to interrupt the mission, even by self-sacrificion. I think it is not necessary to remind what this guy is capable of in hand-to-hand combat. :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

At parting Gimli’s animosity breaks through. �Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens, says he to Elrond. “ I do not believe it’s your true plans about the Fellowship� - if you translate his words. However, it is lyric.
It was Gimli who said that, not Gloin!

So Elrond was compelled to include the dwarf in the Company of the Ring, and he goes more as an observer from allies, rather than Frodo’s bodyguard. If events will start to develop in undesirable for Durin’s Folk way, Gimli will be obliged to interrupt the mission, even by self-sacrificion. I think it is not necessary to remind what this guy is capable of in hand-to-hand combat. :D
I don't think Elrond was forced to include Gimli in the Fellowship. He did so IMO because it was quest that all races (known to man) were a part of. Dwarves had as much right to help defeat Sauron as Elves and Men did.

[Radagast The Brown]

Yes, this is VERY overloaded chapter! A lot to discuss...
So, let start an avalachie. ;) :)

Since you began with Gloin's recounting, I will say some things concerning the Dwarves.

I have a very strong suspicion, that they might had been left behind the board.
But Sauron has interfered.
Precisely from him the Lonely Mountain has received the information about an upcoming Big Game.�As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this…that you should find this thief and get from him a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole�- says a messenger-nazgul, and promises a “gold mountains : “Find it and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever.
Sauron did not even think, that the Dwarves will be bought on his promises. The purpose of this emissary - to include them in the game and to provoke on squabble with Elves.. The difficulty was : that it's not very easy task to pull out a dwarf from the mountain. Нe had to send the Nazgul for 3 (!) times and methodically pound in the same place.
Finally they got it!. Dain began to toss, woke up and became agitated: what if the Elves will seize the Ring ? A nightmare! Anything, but this! I don't tihnk the Dwarves actually knew that the ring Bilbo "found" was the One Ring - and don't think they actually knew what the One Ring is. So.. why did they care if the Ring, which could worth nothing, be 'seized' by the Elves?

I don't think Elrond was so much against having a dwarf in the fellowship - he wasn't an "anti-dwarf" elf, like the Elves in Mirkwood.. or Lorien. He didn't bear a grudge against them, it seems to me, like Galadriel didn't - and probably most of the other High Elves.

[Durin1]

I think it is just another example of how people have been (wrongly) influenced by portrayals in the movies.

Let's face it, why would either race waste their energies on being overtly against each other? Gloin's comment is a result of surpressed anger during Legolas' retelling of the captivity of Gollum: that Thranduil had kept the Dwarves prisoner without adequate trial. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why would Gloin, on behalf of Dain, seek the advice and counsel of Elrond?

It is also explicitly made clear that it was desirable that each representative of the Free Peoples be involved in the Fellowship.

[Olmer]

Why would Gloin, on behalf of Dain, seek the advice and counsel of Elrond?
Really, why? Why ,of all dwarfs, Dain sends Gloin, who had most unpleasant experience in the dealing with Elves?
It has nothing to do with the movie, because this question popped up even when I read the book for the first time. And this was quite long time ago.

I was puzzeled at the reason to send this particular couple of dwarves , which came from the Lonely Mountain under pretense that they “craving� for the “advice of Elrond", when distrust and elves-phobia sprouts from them like a fountain ?!..
And nevertheless, the Fellowship is created from representatives of different races , even if some of them hate each other.
Moreover, each and everyone in the group first of all cares of its own “ant hill� interests, and then about the ideas of the “Great Commanders“.
Let's face it, why would either race waste their energies on being overtly against each other? .
Indeed, why?
Can you answer this rhetorical question, which all nations of the world continue to ask since the dawn of human race?

[Durin1]

Although much of your posts are entertaining Olmer, to be honest, some of your "conspiracy theories" are a bit tedious. You seem to look into things that aren't even there! You make judgements on things which you cannot back up with evidence.

E.g.

You say that these "couple of dwarves" come under "pretence" to "crave" the advice of Elrond, though "mistrust and elf-phobia sprout out of them like a fountain"

I don't know.. it seems that I must have been reading a different version to LoTR than you appear to have ;)

Apart from Gloin's comment and Gandalf's rebuke, nothing else is made of this "hatred" between Elves and Dwarves. Granted, they didn't like each other much either, but only since the days of the awakening of the Balrog in Moria is it that they really become estranged. Except in Eregion, their relationship is ever "cool".

Although it's not within the scope of the discussion of this chapter, I would like to point out Celeborn's line [paraphrased]: " it is long indeed since any of Durin's race have come to Caras Galadhon". This, in my opinion, infers that Dwarves from Moria used to have relations and trade with Lothlorien in the past - so how can they "hate" each other :confused:

However, I would agree with you that most people present in the Council have their own "interests". Aragorn's trial as Heir of Gondor, Boromir's duty to Minas Tirith etc.

[Valandil]

Olmer - when you say 'Thorin' - I think you mean 'Gloin' - right?

It makes sense to me that Dain would send a dwarf who still remained from Thorin's band... for while they had been treated poorly by the King of the Wood Elves (which we hope was somewhat patched up at the end of 'The Hobbit') - still, they had been to Rivendell before, and had been well-treated there - and received good help from Elrond.

[Valandil]

... Нe had to send the Nazgul for 3 (!) times and methodically pound in the same place... :D

side-note: I thought for a long time that the messenger to Erebor was a Nazgul... indeed on our first reading of LOTR, that's what any of us would think - since they would be the only black riders from Mordor we would think of.

However - I now suspect it was either the Mouth of Sauron or some other such messenger. I just don't think Sauron would have sent one of the Nazgul for this purpose... when another servant might have been more appropriate.

[Nurvingiel]

I agree Val, the Nazgul just radiate evil and might have 'given away the game' as they say.

I don't see why sending Gloin and Gimli to Rivendell was some sort of conspiracy theory. Elrond and the other elves there had nothing against Dwarves, as Elrond demonstrated.

Further, it is made abundantly clear in this chapter (by Elrond) that all Free Peoples of Middle-earth are to be represented in the Fellowship - Nine Walkers against Nine Riders.

Finrod, your summary of this chapter is completely brilliant! Nice job. I really like this chapter so it was very enjoyable to read, but I can see that it would have been difficult! :)

[Durin1]

The good thing about the chapter is that you get to piece together much of what we are already told, such as in "The Shadow of the Past", although still not enough to satiate the appetite!

This is especially so of the account of Elrond which we only catch the butt-end of.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It makes sense to me that Dain would send a dwarf who still remained from Thorin's band... for while they had been treated poorly by the King of the Wood Elves (which we hope was somewhat patched up at the end of 'The Hobbit') - still, they had been to Rivendell before, and had been well-treated there - and received good help from Elrond.
And they'd already had dealings with Elrond.

side-note: I thought for a long time that the messenger to Erebor was a Nazgul... indeed on our first reading of LOTR, that's what any of us would think - since they would be the only black riders from Mordor we would think of.

However - I now suspect it was either the Mouth of Sauron or some other such messenger. I just don't think Sauron would have sent one of the Nazgul for this purpose... when another servant might have been more appropriate.
It did say that the messenger had a hissing voice which immediatly makes me think of the Nazgûl.

[The Gaffer]

Thanks to FF for delivering the summary, and to Olmer for getting us all started.

I don't really want to comment on the specifics of what politics may or may not have lain behind the discussions just yet. However, it's clear in this chapter that there IS politics, and that it stretches back into legend.

However, I think it's strongly suggested that the messenger wasn't a Nazgul; if it was, I think it unlikely that Dain would regard the message as having a "fair cloak" (unless he's a total Goth). There's also a strong threat in the messenger's parting words, "for the moment", applied to Dain's time being his own to spend.

Two things that relate to discussion that have been ongoing elsewhere on the board: Firstly, Elrond seems certain that there is no possibility of a "Last Alliance" type assault on Mordor. The best each race can do is return home and prepare in their own way for the onslaught, but at least each can be assured that they are not alone in opposing Sauron.

Secondly, there is the question of what to do with the Ring. A lot of detail is spent in this chapter dealing with its history, and various other chains of events that led to the present dilemma. Comparatively little is devoted to the argument against "using it ourselves": it seems to boil down simply to Elrond's and Gandalf's reluctance to take it and wield it, and their word that it will turn you evil.

If I was Boromir I might well have thought that this was "cheese-eating surrender monkey"-talk.

[Durin1]

Secondly, there is the question of what to do with the Ring. A lot of detail is spent in this chapter dealing with its history, and various other chains of events that led to the present dilemma. Comparatively little is devoted to the argument against "using it ourselves": it seems to boil down simply to Elrond's and Gandalf's reluctance to take it and wield it, and their word that it will turn you evil.

I think there were so little arguements for using the Ring because it was already abundantly clear that the Ring would "corrupt" all that wore it, according to the measure of each Kind. Gollum's longevity and character are reasons enough; Isildur's failure to cast the Ring into the Fire; Bilbo's (slight) change which alarmed Gandalf more than he put on etc.

Just imagine what the Ring would have done to powerful beings such as Elrond and Gandalf? Note: Galadriel's "in place of a Dark Lord you would set up a Queen" speech later in the story.

In terms of what to do with it, Gandalf et al already knew that Sauron was mustering a great army which would have cut through the South so it was imperative that something was done straight away. As is said, it would have only delayed the inevitable if they were to try and hide the Ring.

[The Gaffer]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean from our (the reader's) perspective, but from, say Boromir's, who hadn't had the benefit of reading Chapter 2!

Knowing nothing about magic rings, it would seem logical that a more powerful person would have a better chance of mastering it. I don't think an adequate explanation was given to counter that view, particularly given that Boromir expressed it openly.

[Durin1]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean from our (the reader's) perspective, but from, say Boromir's, who hadn't had the benefit of reading Chapter 2!

Knowing nothing about magic rings, it would seem logical that a more powerful person would have a better chance of mastering it. I don't think an adequate explanation was given to counter that view, particularly given that Boromir expressed it openly.

I actually agree partly with you on this Gaffer. I remember one of my first (naive) readings of LoTR when I was young(er) ;) and I thought to myself: But WHY don't they TRY and use it!!! I always thought that Boromir had a valid point and was probably just airing what others must have been thinking. However, ultimately it was this "desire" to do good that led to Boromir's downfall. I think that Elrond and Gandalf try to emphasise this by pointing out to Boromir that in order to weild an evil Ring, you would have to (or eventually would anyway) become evil. IMO this is made clear during the Council, but as I said, it is the first seeds of Boromir's "desire" that he continues to push the point.

But I think that was the whole point of Elrond's lengthy preamble: to describe the reasons why Rings of Power were made and, more pertinently, why the One Ring was made. Another point though is that the Ring was more perilous to more "powerful" beings. They may have been able to master it but the effects would have been nearly or as devastating as if Sauron held the Ring: Remember that we are told that the Ring was made soley for the purpose of bringing together the other Great Rings "One Ring to rule them all...." etc.. This is one of the reasons why Gandalf quotes these lines in the tongue of Mordor.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean from our (the reader's) perspective, but from, say Boromir's, who hadn't had the benefit of reading Chapter 2!

Knowing nothing about magic rings, it would seem logical that a more powerful person would have a better chance of mastering it. I don't think an adequate explanation was given to counter that view, particularly given that Boromir expressed it openly.
But why would a man of Gondor be so drawn to a thing made by Sauron? He had known no great detail of the Ring before that and all of a sudden wanted to use something of Saurons. Why?

[Radagast The Brown]

But why would a man of Gondor be so drawn to a thing made by Sauron? He had known no great detail of the Ring before that and all of a sudden wanted to use something of Saurons. Why?I'd guess that logically - if it's Suaron's weapon, it's strong; and therefore can help Boromir to destroy Suaron himself, not thinking that a weapon, or a Ring, can be evil.

[Nurvingiel]

I agree RTB, and I also think it's because of the riddle, and the heritage of Isildur. The fact that Isildur was betrayed by the Ring wasn't really in the library records IIRC. Gandalf read between the lines and did other research, but this wouldn't have been obvious to someone else. Especially someone who didn't fully understand Sauron's true nature and power, and the sort of evil tools he employed (like the Ring).

[Olmer]

It makes sense to me that Dain would send a dwarf who still remained from Thorin's band... , they had been to Rivendell before, and had been well-treated there - and received good help from Elrond.
Point is taken. Now I see that there was a really good reason to send someone who already knows the way.
However - I now suspect it was either the Mouth of Sauron or some other such messenger. I just don't think Sauron would have sent one of the Nazgul for this purpose... when another servant might have been more appropriate.
I still think that it was the Nazgul, Khamul in particular.
Why Sauron had to send somebody all the way from Mordor, while his most trusted servants were dwelling in much shorter distance from the Dale and Lonely Mountain?
If you read my posting "In defense of the Ringwraiths", you probably remember that the Nazguls spent unreasonably long time in the vales of Anduin.Now I think that all this time they used to accompany Khamul on the message delivery.
... the Nazgul just radiate evil and might have 'given away the game' as they say.
Seems an old Gaffer and Farmer Maggot was not so unnnerved by the Nazgul.
I think the Dwarves perception woun't be any better. ;)
Comparatively little is devoted to the argument against "using it ourselves": it seems to boil down simply to Elrond's and Gandalf's reluctance to take it and wield it, and their word that it will turn you evil.
This was puzzeled me from the beginning that all discussion about a different options of the ring destruction had been held just between the Elves,nobody asked Dwarf's opinion or Hobbit's. When Gloin tentatively suggested to enlist the help of another Three rings, the Elves got in the silencing offence :The Elves returned no answer, and Elrond chided him that he is not allowed to speak about them.
Nobody was brave enough to oppose the decision of the Elves. Only Boromir had the guts to stand up and voice his opinion, for which he gained in my eyes much higher respect then Aragorn.(But Aragorn has come a long way to deserve later an admiration too)
So, in my POV the Council of Elrond was a staged show, where the major players was already picked up, it was only left to persuade them to take the predeterminate role.And to do so you had to aim on convincing everybody in the common danger, the danger of the total destruction of the M.E.

[Nurvingiel]

I still think that it was the Nazgul, Khamul in particular.
Why Sauron had to send somebody all the way from Mordor, while his most trusted servants were dwelling in much shorter distance from the Dale and Lonely Mountain?
If you're referring to Orcs, I don't think they would be well-received at the Lonely Mountain. :D

Seems an old Gaffer and Farmer Maggot was not so unnnerved by the Nazgul.
I think the Dwarves perception woun't be any better. ;)
True, but he did sense that there was something wrong with the guy, and that he spoke funny. I think Sauron would want to send someone who had (or could take the guise of) a fairer appearance. Maybe the Mouth of Sauron could pull it off, maybe not. It's certainly fair to think it was Khamul, I don't think there's evidence to the contrary.

This was puzzeled me from the beginning that all discussion about a different options of the ring destruction had been held just between the Elves,nobody asked Dwarf's opinion or Hobbit's. When Gloin tentatively suggested to enlist the help of another Three rings, the Elves got in the silencing offence :The Elves returned no answer, and Elrond chided him that he is not allowed to speack about them.
If the Elves used the three rings, they might tip Sauron off. They didn't want to give away to Sauron that they were trying to destroy the Ring, and they wanted to keep knowledge of who had it and where it was a secret. How could the Three be used in a non-obvious way that would still actually help?
We can't be sure they were not used anyway (subtly, of course) - "Gilthoniel, a Elbereth" occured to Frodo and Sam at just the right moments. ;)
EDIT: About asking a Hobbit's or Dwarf's opinion, the Elves were really the only people in this case who knew what they were talking about. Elrond was actually there when Isildur took the Ring, what better first-hand knowledge could you ask for? In addition, he was extremely wise, his opinion would have been consulted anyway. In Frodo's place, I would have trusted Elrond's council.

Nobody was brave enough to oppose the decision of the Elves. Only Boromir had the guts to stand up and voice his opinion, for which he gained in my eyes much higher respect then Aragorn.(But Aragorn has come a long way to deserve later an admiration too)
I respect Boromir for putting forth his idea, but that doesn't mean his idea didn't suck. :D

So, in my POV the Council of Elrond was a staged show, where the major players was already picked up, it was only left to persuade them to take the predeterminate role.And to do so you had to aim on convincing everybody in the common danger, the danger of the total destruction of the M.E.
Are you suggesting Sauron isn't evil and/or not trying to enslave all of Middle-earth? Because there is significant evidence to the contrary.

[Durin1]

The 3 had a wholly different "power and purpose" to the rest of the Rings [read: Tolkien's Letter to Milton Waldman in one of the editions to The Sil] so they would be quite useless in being using against Sauron.

It is enough to hide the knowledge of the 3 to those who didn't need to know. I think that not many "ordinary" elves would have been directly aware of the use of the 3 Rings, or if they did, they were not permitted to speak about it. This is similar to the ring possessed by the Dwarves of Moria: not many would have been aware of its existance and it would never have been openly talked about.

[Durin1]

What has always interested me during the chapter is the "dream" that Boromir has, and its implications. For discussion:

1. From whom did the messages/dream come from?

2. Is there any coincidence that the dreams were first targeted at Faramir and that he received them often, and that Boromir only receieved it once?

It remains my belief that whoever sent the messages wanted Faramir to go to Imladris.

[Valandil]

I still think that it was the Nazgul, Khamul in particular.
Why Sauron had to send somebody all the way from Mordor, while his most trusted servants were dwelling in much shorter distance from the Dale and Lonely Mountain?
If you read my posting "In defense of the Ringwraiths", you probably remember that the Nazguls spent unreasonably long time in the vales of Anduin.Now I think that all this time they used to accompany Khamul on the message delivery.


Yeah - but the Anduin is still a long way from Erebor. Whole next river valley over... with a substantial forest in between.

[inked]

What has always interested me during the chapter is the "dream" that Boromir has, and its implications. For discussion:

1. From whom did the messages/dream come from?

2. Is there any coincidence that the dreams were first targeted at Faramir and that he received them often, and that Boromir only receieved it once?

It remains my belief that whoever sent the messages wanted Faramir to go to Imladris.

Working from memory only, I seem to recall that the dream originated with the Valar (1). I think that they were ultimately from Eru and mediated by the Valar, but I'll have to check the chapter more closely to confirm that.

IMHO, the dreams were sent to the most receptive individual, not necessarily the one who was to carry out the task. In my understanding, once Boromir had the dream and (most likely) discussed it with his brother, they took counsel together and presented the data to Denethor. It is interesting that he received no dream, but may have been under the influence of Sauron to the extent he could not himself receive it. Nontheless, Denethor retained enough insight to pursue the message, though he had little faith in regards to it. It would then make sense that he would send as ambassador the son who was most like himself to achieve Denethor's goals. Boromir was subsequently shown to indeed be most like his father, but ultimately overcame that willfullness and pride at great cost.

"The ways of the gods are strange to men, and yet they are not strange."
Orual, TILL WE HAVE FACES, CS Lewis.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If you're referring to Orcs, I don't think they would be well-received at the Lonely Mountain. :D
I have a feeling he meant the Nazgûl. ;) They would be new in Erebor and so wouldn't have raised alarm bells if they hadn't made clear the fact they were from Mordor.

[Nurvingiel]

IIRC, Faramir says to Frodo and Sam in Ithilien that he would have liked this quest, but Boromir insisted that he would go. I wonder how much of that was fate, and how much was the nature of the two brothers. Hm...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But then maybe it would have been Faramir tempted by the Ring instead of Boromir.

[Forkbeard]

side-note: I thought for a long time that the messenger to Erebor was a Nazgul... indeed on our first reading of LOTR, that's what any of us would think - since they would be the only black riders from Mordor we would think of.

However - I now suspect it was either the Mouth of Sauron or some other such messenger. I just don't think Sauron would have sent one of the Nazgul for this purpose... when another servant might have been more appropriate.


I see that others have chimed in on this one, but I agree with Olmer, I really think it was a Nazgul. Here's why:

1. The rider to Dain: a) arrives at night, in secret--since the 9 were not riding openly yet, though active b) he is unable to make his voice fair b1) he is said to have a fell voice c) his breath hissed like the hiss of snakes d) everyone who hears him shudders in fear--this all sounds very like a Nazgul to me. BUT....

2. Would Sauron have entrusted discussion and information about the ring to antone else? Take the Mouth for example, a Black Numenorean full of ambition who has studied "sorcery"---not someone I would entrust with finding the Ring because he would likely be tempted to take it himself and try and master it. Whereas the Nazgul were slaves to the Ring and would feel no temptation. Granted the rider is only looking for news, not the thing itself, but it seems to me that even news at that stage of Sauron's game would have been dangerous.


FB

[Nurvingiel]

I see that others have chimed in on this one, but I agree with Olmer, I really think it was a Nazgul. Here's why:

1. The rider to Dain: a) arrives at night, in secret--since the 9 were not riding openly yet, though active b) he is unable to make his voice fair b1) he is said to have a fell voice c) his breath hissed like the hiss of snakes d) everyone who hears him shudders in fear--this all sounds very like a Nazgul to me. BUT....

This is an excellent point, and as I said before, there's no solid evidence to say that the messenger was not a Nazgul. Why not trust the Mouth though? He's as loyal as the Nazgul. All your points could also indicate the Mouth of Sauron, so I think we can say we have a hung jury on that one. ;)

2. Would Sauron have entrusted discussion and information about the ring to antone else? Take the Mouth for example, a Black Numenorean full of ambition who has studied "sorcery"---not someone I would entrust with finding the Ring because he would likely be tempted to take it himself and try and master it.

If the Mouth of Sauron or anyone else tried to master the Ring, Sauron would easily know where it was and take it. He's the true master and only he can control the Ring. Maybe he'd even want someone to attempt this.

This point is relevant to other parts of this chapter. That is why Boromir's idea was totally shot down. An attempt to use the Ring would be essentially delivering it to Sauron.

[Durin1]

Working from memory only, I seem to recall that the dream originated with the Valar (1). I think that they were ultimately from Eru and mediated by the Valar, but I'll have to check the chapter more closely to confirm that.

IMHO, the dreams were sent to the most receptive individual, not necessarily the one who was to carry out the task. In my understanding, once Boromir had the dream and (most likely) discussed it with his brother, they took counsel together and presented the data to Denethor. It is interesting that he received no dream, but may have been under the influence of Sauron to the extent he could not himself receive it. Nontheless, Denethor retained enough insight to pursue the message, though he had little faith in regards to it. It would then make sense that he would send as ambassador the son who was most like himself to achieve Denethor's goals. Boromir was subsequently shown to indeed be most like his father, but ultimately overcame that willfullness and pride at great cost.

"The ways of the gods are strange to men, and yet they are not strange."
Orual, TILL WE HAVE FACES, CS Lewis.

Firstly, welcome to the Moot!

Boromir takes it upon himself to make the dangerous journey from Gondor to Rivendell. Faramir, in Window of the West", points out that he himself was due to go but Boromir insisted. Denethor was loathe to send Boromir but I don't think it was anything to do with looking in the palantir.

Although the Valar may have sent the message (I wouldn't even want to guess which one, although I'd hazard a guess that Ulmo gave the vision of Boromir on Anduin to Faramir), it is clear, through History, that they have not always achieved their intentions (that's an understatement if ever there was one!). I believe therefore that it was always their intention to send Faramir.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

an excellent summary, and a good range of views so far.

I have always thought that the council of elrond was rather a good chapter, although if you are not used to reading long sections of monologue at a time, it can be quite tiresome.

The main part of this chapter, to me, is an introduction into the stories that shaped the future, including some not so distant pasts, eg gollum in mirkwood, gandalf at orthanc etc.

[Forkbeard]

This is an excellent point, and as I said before, there's no solid evidence to say that the messenger was not a Nazgul. Why not trust the Mouth though? He's as loyal as the Nazgul. All your points could also indicate the Mouth of Sauron, so I think we can say we have a hung jury on that one. ;)

I guess I don't see that, Nurvingiel. Where is the Mouth described as having a breath that hisses like snakes, whose presence strikes inexplicable terror into those who stand near, can not make his voice sound fair and has a fell voice? If anything, the description of the Mouth. So while some of the points could apply to the Mouth or another like him, these features seem to me to speak only of the Nazgul.

As for trusting the Mouth, how do we know he was as loyal as a Nazgul and wouldn't be tempted by the Ring? EVERYONE, even Gandalf and Galadriel, though loyal to the Free Peoples and the Valar are tempted by it, and resist the temptation. WOuld the Mouth have so resisted? Saruman didn't.

If the Mouth of Sauron or anyone else tried to master the Ring, Sauron would easily know where it was and take it. He's the true master and only he can control the Ring. Maybe he'd even want someone to attempt this.
I'm not sure that that is true. Bilbo and Frodo frequently used the Ring and Sauron didn't know. And when Frodo puts on the Ring on Amon Hen, is the wearing of the Ring, or the wearing of the Ring on Amon Hen that alerts Sauron? Even then, he can't pinpoint its location. And Tolkien does not say that ONLY Sauron can master it, just that it would take a "large" person to do so, someone perhaps like Gandalf or Galadriel rather than Frodo or Gollum.

And the point of course isn't whether or not the Mouth COULD master the Ring so much as he would be tempted to do so...even Isildur attempted it.

This point is relevant to other parts of this chapter. That is why Boromir's idea was totally shot down. An attempt to use the Ring would be essentially delivering it to Sauron.

I disagree here too: Boromir's idea was shot down because the Ring was evil, none can wield unless they have a great power of their own, and the Ring would corrupt. The Mouth is already "corrupt" and evil, has a great power of his own (like Isildur except that he has long studied "sorcery" under Sauron), he's a very good candidate to try and master the Ring.

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I guess I don't see that, Nurvingiel. Where is the Mouth described as having a breath that hisses like snakes, whose presence strikes inexplicable terror into those who stand near, can not make his voice sound fair and has a fell voice? If anything, the description of the Mouth. So while some of the points could apply to the Mouth or another like him, these features seem to me to speak only of the Nazgul.
The Nazgûl had no will save Sauron's. I agree that it was one of the Nazgûl, but I think that the MoS would have been just as loyal. Remember at The Black Gate when he speaks of the rewards he will earn if Sauron get's the Ring back. He knows that he could not muster a force to attack Sauron's even if he had wanted to.

[Forkbeard]

The Nazgûl had no will save Sauron's. I agree that it was one of the Nazgûl, but I think that the MoS would have been just as loyal. Remember at The Black Gate when he speaks of the rewards he will earn if Sauron get's the Ring back. He knows that he could not muster a force to attack Sauron's even if he had wanted to.

Perhaps I'm just blind, I'm sure many here would agree. :) But I don't see that either. The closest I can come to your statement here is that when the Mouth gives Sauron's terms for the Captain's surrender, that the Captains read his thought that he, the Mouth, will be the one to replace Saruman in Orthanc as "one more worthy"....that has nothing to do with getting the Ring back or even finding the Ring.

But even if so, if he can master the Ring, his rewards would be greater, and that possibility surely would have occurred to him had he been the messenger and gone after the Ring....even more so had he gotten his hands on it. Even little Sam, the most loyal, good hearted individual in the story, has delusions of grandeur when he has the Ring, how can we expect a Black Numenorean who is a powerful socerer in his own right and is more cruel than any orc to have no temptation at all from the Ring, or that would he be loyal to Sauron no matter what when faced with the Ring?

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But he would not have been able to master it. He was still a man. The Ring was Sauron's creation and the Ring wanted to be on Sauron's hand again. Eventually it would have betrayed the Mouth to his death.

[Forkbeard]

But he would not have been able to master it. He was still a man. The Ring was Sauron's creation and the Ring wanted to be on Sauron's hand again. Eventually it would have betrayed the Mouth to his death.

But that is immaterial. Galadriel knows as well as anyone the dangers of thr Ring, yet she is tempted. Sam has been told the dangers of the Ring and he has seen the effects on Frodo, yet he is tempted. They resist. What makes us think that the Mouth would not be so tempted and would not give in? Loyalty to Sauron? Really?

FB

[Olmer]

Yeah - but the Anduin is still a long way from Erebor. Whole next river valley over... with a substantial forest in between.
You did not read it.... :(
Well, I was saying in there that in the vales of Anduin the Nazguls spent 50+ days, riding along the river. I was wondering why it took for them so much time, riding on strong and fast horses, while from the Gladden fields to the High Pass was just 10 days of the walking distance.
Considering that from Gladden fields to Erebor is the distance 4 times longer, then an assumption that the Nazguls rode to Erebor fits in this 50+ days.
Other than that, Forkbeard precisely described why the
messenger "feels like Nazgul", and I think his arguments are very strong.
If the Elves used the three rings, they might tip Sauron off.
They WERE USING the Rings all the time. Remember Gandalf and Galadriel?
How could the Three be used in a non-obvious way that would still actually help?
This is very interesting question.I think we could verbalize some speculation.But it does not belong to this topic.
I respect Boromir for putting forth his idea, but that doesn't mean his idea didn't suck.
It sucks from your POV. His intentions was noble : to defend his people in a dire need. How do you know that it wouldn't work?
I think, if it was ineed the Ring which was bringing a power, he would be able to withstand Sauron and to bring his people to the victory and glory. But it will be the deed of self-sacrament, because at the end his life-force will be succumbed to Sauron, turning him into another Wraith.
About asking a Hobbit's or Dwarf's opinion, the Elves were really the only people in this case who knew what they were talking about.
If somebody about to send me on the death-march, I would definately like to be taken not like a voiceless dummy, even if my opinion would be discounted.
Is there any coincidence that the dreams were first targeted at Faramir and that he received them often, and that Boromir only receieved it once?
I think because Boromir was sleeping less defending his people and country. ;) :D
It would then make sense that he would send as ambassador the son who was most like himself to achieve Denethor's goals.
What exactly was Denethor's goals in sending Boromir?
Faramir says to Frodo and Sam in Ithilien that he would have liked this quest, but Boromir insisted that he would go.
No. It's Denethor insisted that Boromir would go.
“I would ask you, my father, why it was that I, not he (Boromir) was in Ithilien… It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him � (Faramir to Denethor. ).

Denethor was loathe to send Boromir but I don't think it was anything to do with looking in the palantir.
It has EVERYTHING to do with palantir, because Denethor had a very clear idea what to look for in Imladris.“He would have remembered his father need…He would have brought me a mighty gift� (Denethor, “LOTR�, book III, chapter 4 )

[Valandil]

You did not read it....

Oh yes Olmer... I DID read it. Just uncertain about the ability of the Nazgul to really thorougly search the area of the Anduin around Gladden... AND to go to Erebor to deliver all these messages.

HOWEVER - I think it very likely when Tolkien wrote this that he DID consider the messenger to be a nazgul. I was just tossing out another possibility that occurred to me. I don't know if he really worked out all the timeframe elements for this little part of the story though... hard to say. I'll have to look into it, if & when I get the chance.

Anyway folks - we're diverging from discussion of this chapter. Azalea's intent was that the chapter in question be the focus of discussion each time - and that we refrain from going into other sources too much - so that even those who had only read LOTR would feel comfortable participating. We certainly can... and SHOULD ... get into these other things, but maybe a separate thread would be better suited.

Olmer - I strongly agree that the Elves made constant use of their rings... that's how Rivendell and Lorien were kept as they were. The only way that Sauron would have been aware of their use, and had power of it, was by recovering The One.

I disagree about the choice of who went to Rivendell from Minas Tirith. Faramir considered it his task, but Boromir wanted to go badly. Their father would rather have kept Boromir with him and sent Faramir, but gave in to Boromir's wishes. Isn't that how Faramir frames it? (and here I go... diverging! :p :rolleyes: ) Do you consider Faramir, at least, to be a 'straight-shooter'?

Well... would like to say more, but my 2-year old wants to be read to (and he's not ready for LOTR... :( ) :)

[inked]

Olmer, you asked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by inked
It would then make sense that he would send as ambassador the son who was most like himself to achieve Denethor's goals.


What exactly was Denethor's goals in sending Boromir?


IMHO, Denethor's goals in sending Boromir were to search out any aid, especially of arms and materiels that would aid Denethor in opposing Sauron.
Since he had been utilizing the palantir, and was probably ensnared by Sauron's misdirections, there exists the probability that this was a covert Sauron "find the Ring" exertion. Denethor would have had no knowledge of the One, but it wasn't necessary for him to know; only necessary that Sauron be apprised of its approximate location.

Boromir was the better candidate as he was most like his father and Denethor could therefore better anticipate his actions and reactions. He seems to have distrusted Faramir as being insufficiently "in line" with the Denthorian modus operandi. Denethor complained of Faramir's penchant for spending time with Gandalf and had the same strength which refused the Ring when given the opportunity. As Denethor descended into the futility Sauron showed him, even in the early stages he would have developed a distaste for all who did not see through his eyes and understandings, or at least a sense that here was someone who thought differently. And it is ever the despot who dreads the innovater. The upstart in ideas may be obedient in service, but you can never be TOO certain that they won't break the mold at critical junctures. Boromir was much more reliable in that way than Faramir.

And Boromir performed the function admirably. It was only his encounter with Frodo over the Ring at Amon Hen that opened Boromir's mind and spirit to the potential danger of the Ring and of his father's limitation and his own in the matter of Gondor. Boromir repented his folly. But had he convinced them to go via Minas Tirith, I have no doubt he would have been his father's son in every respect Denethor wished.

This whole sequence of events is a meditation on "a fate worse than death" in which the penance unto death in Boromir's case saves him from a Nazgul's existence. No doubt had Boromir seized the Ring and exercised those abilities his father so prized under the Ring's and Sauron's influence, Denethor would have abruptly ended his Stewardship on the end of Boromir's sword!

So think I, at any rate.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Denethor nor Boromir knew nothing of the Ring. Forget the scene in TTT EE where Denethor know's all about it. Boromir came to Rivendell concerning only his vision, nothing else.

[inked]

So, TD, what has that to do with the discussion? :rolleyes:

We were discussing why Boromir and not Faramir. Knowledge of the Ring was not present to B, F, or D. It isn't necessary to explain their interactions and we haven't resorted to it. It's all about the dysfunctional relationships within the Denethorian family. :(

[Durin1]

So, TD, what has that to do with the discussion? :rolleyes:

We were discussing why Boromir and not Faramir. Knowledge of the Ring was not present to B, F, or D. It isn't necessary to explain their interactions and we haven't resorted to it. It's all about the dysfunctional relationships within the Denethorian family. :(

Which doesn't belong to the remit of this chapter. Faramir and Denethor are hardly mentioned.

Can we keep to things more relevant to what is DISCUSSED during the Council?

[inked]

pardon! :eek:

[Durin1]

pardon! :eek:

Well, as this is going to be a chapter by chapter discussion of LoTR, I would think that there is better evidence in forthcoming chapters for the current line of discussion.

All this "dysfunctional relationship of Denethor's family" is not even hinted at in the Council of Elrond chapter.

[Artanis]

Honour to FF for a good summary! :)

Bilbo is now telling the full and true story of how he came by the Ring. Is that because he is now free from the bad influence the Ring had on him? Or is it because he now has learned much more about the true nature of the Ring?

Elrond states that "What power still remains (to defy the Enemy) lies with us, here in Imladris, or with CÃ*rdan at the Havens, or in Lórien." Elrond and Galadriel each had one of the Elven-rings, and in Imladris lived still a few of the Noldor who had come from the West. But what kind of power was there in the Havens to withstand Sauron?

When Frodo has volunteered to take the Ring, Elrond names him among the Elf-friends of old: Hador, Húrin, Túrin and Beren. I have long had a grudge against Elrond because he did not mention Tuor! Why not? :(

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Elrond states that "What power still remains (to defy the Enemy) lies with us, here in Imladris, or with CÃ*rdan at the Havens, or in Lórien." Elrond and Galadriel each had one of the Elven-rings, and in Imladris lived still a few of the Noldor who had come from the West. But what kind of power was there in the Havens to withstand Sauron?
It is said that some of the Noldor of Lindon went with Cirdan to the Havens.

[Radagast The Brown]

When Frodo has volunteered to take the Ring, Elrond names him among the Elf-friends of old: Hador, Húrin, Túrin and Beren. I have long had a grudge against Elrond because he did not mention Tuor! Why not? :(For one, could be becasue he's an elf now himself.. except that, I can't really see much reasons why not count him as an 'elf-friend'.. he was much more successful than Turin, no doubt.

And I agree with Telcontar - I think Elrond was refering to Elves, because the Elves fought and won Sauron.. and the Elves of the Heavens did take part in those wars.

[Olmer]

But what kind of power was there in the Havens to withstand Sauron?

Wery good question!
Considering that Cirdan don't have any power enhancement by the Ring, it must be the man-power, er.. elves-power. Which means that, according to Elrond, at the time of the War of the Rings in Lindon was enough elves-warriers to defy Sauron; if not that, what else then?.
Therefore we are coming back to the question, how dangerous for the Elves has been the whole situation with Sauron's dominion over the Middle-earth ?
Not so dangerous if they didn't bother to send any help to eradicate the prospective new ruler of the World, which shows that they did not mind having Sauron around as long as he does not try to manipulate them, the Elves, especially, the Elves with the Rings of Power. And here we come that the whole ordeal about the Ring's destruction was not exactly about saving the free folk of Middle-earth, but about prevention of Sauron to get hold on the Wise and Ageless. Fodo has been sacrified, because nobody else, even elves, couldn’t fit better for the job; the only hobbit-kind, due to their close friendship with the earth possessed the art of moving swiftly and silently and be almost invisible to others, therefore having more chances to get to the aimed point - Mount Doom.

[Earniel]

Elrond states that "What power still remains (to defy the Enemy) lies with us, here in Imladris, or with CÃ*rdan at the Havens, or in Lórien." Elrond and Galadriel each had one of the Elven-rings, and in Imladris lived still a few of the Noldor who had come from the West. But what kind of power was there in the Havens to withstand Sauron?
Perhaps Elrond was trying to cover up that Cirdan had given his ring to Gandalf? I can imagine not too many Elves were happy with Elven lords handing old heir looms to strangers the first time they meet in the docks like Cirdan did. ;)

[Mrs.Gimli]

Th council of Elrond is one of my favourite parts.I really enjoy the part when Borimir talks.He is so lordly :p
But my favourite part from that scene is when Gimli talks :p :o :D :o

[The Wizard from Milan]

My question
I am not an English native speaker, although I think I speak English fairly well.
I have always been puzzled by "All that is gold does not glitter". I think it should be "Not all that is gold does glitter", as a reference to Aragorn that does not glitter (he has no outward sign of his kingly lineage) but is gold. So why was it inverted? Is it just a matter of poetry? Or there is more to that?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

My question
I am not an English native speaker, although I think I speak English fairly well.
I have always been puzzled by "All that is gold does not glitter". I think it should be "Not all that is gold does glitter", as a reference to Aragorn that does not glitter (he has no outward sign of his kingly lineage) but is gold. So why was it inverted? Is it just a matter of poetry? Or there is more to that?
i think it is just the rate at which the poem is,
but the tense of the first line does give it more impact,
and in england we have a saying
"All that glitters is not gold",
i think JRRT was trying to give that line an older feel to it

ps welcome to the moot

[Elemmírë]

My question
I am not an English native speaker, although I think I speak English fairly well.
I have always been puzzled by "All that is gold does not glitter". I think it should be "Not all that is gold does glitter", as a reference to Aragorn that does not glitter (he has no outward sign of his kingly lineage) but is gold. So why was it inverted? Is it just a matter of poetry? Or there is more to that?

Basically you think that the word "not" should be put in a different place. Personally, I think it sounds better with "not" near the end. It gives the line a more definite rhythm: ALL that is GOLD does not GLITter is more euphonious than the other way around.

I can't see any other reason than meter. The way it is stated can possibly even be misinterpreted, methinks, to form something meaning "Nothing gold glitters", so your version is probably less ambiguous.

But then again, I think the poem was aiming towards ambiguity. :)

[Finrod Felagund]

But what kind of power was there in the Havens to withstand Sauron?

Cirdan himself is one of the first elves mentioned by name in the early times of the Silmarillion, he is ancient and wise.

In addition, Sauron fears the sea...not only because Ulmo still aids the elves, but because he was once already nearly destroyed by the sea, in Numenor's downfall...One always fears what they cannot control.

And the strength of elves is not to be underrated anyways.

[Gordis]

I have just read the tread and could not resist the temptation to participate. Olmer's posts in particular are so interesting and challenging!
So I have to catch up:

I agree that the messenger to Erebor was a nazgul.

I believe that Sauron was paranoid about letting anyone but "his most trusted servants" (the nazgul) handle the ring. And for all he knew Bilbo might have been still in Erebor with the ring. (The messenger asks for the ring or any hints on it). So the messenger was certainly a nazgul. And the description of the messenger who came alone at night fits it perfectly.

I think that Olmer is right in identifying the nazgul as Khamul. Not only Dol Guldur was closer to Erebor than Barad Dur, but also the nazgul was HISSING:

It did say that the messenger had a hissing voice, which immediately makes me think of the Nazgûl.
Yes, but not all the nazgul had the hissing voice, the WK's voice for example was described only as "cold", the voice at Crickhollow was "high", the assembled nazgul at the ford ("To Mordor we will take you") were not hissing either. There was only ONE hissing nazgul who "spoke funny". It was Khamul the Easterling Lord of Dol Guldur. He came to Hobbiton and to Maggot (see UT The hunt for the ring). Most likely he was the messenger to Erebor.

If you read my posting "In defense of the Ringwraiths", you probably remember that the Nazguls spent unreasonably long time in the vales of Anduin.Now I think that all this time they used to accompany Khamul on the message delivery. .

No, I think it is not plausible. Firstly the route the nazgul took is described in detail in UT The hunt for the ring.

There is more. In UT we read: "At length they returned... and met messengers from Barad Dur conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay".

Why would Sauron be so angry if the nazgul went on an errand to Erebor on his orders? No, the nazgul really wasted their time in the vales of Anduin, walking their horses to Gundabad and back again. Nice 1,5 months vacations they had. So Sauron had reasons to be mad.

If the Mouth of Sauron or anyone else tried to master the Ring, Sauron would easily know where it was and take it. He's the true master and only he can control the Ring. Maybe he'd even want someone to attempt this.

Why then didn't he send some mortal men to find the Shire? Some Dunelandings or some trusted Black Numenoreans? The former might pass for fugitives, while the latter might have posed as rangers. They would have found the Shire much more easily than the nazgul, blind in the daylight and not exactly inspiring confidence to mortals they questioned. No, Sauron was mortally afraid to let ANY MORTAL near the ring. He had to send the nazgul because he believed them to be utterly under control through their nine rings, which he held. Was he right? But that is a question for another tread.

Denethor had a very clear idea what to look for in Imladris.“He would have remembered his father need…He would have brought me a mighty gift� (Denethor, “LOTR�, book III, chapter 4 ) .
Yes, I am also sure that Denethor (a very clever and learned men) has deciphered the prophecy correctly. He has not shared his guesses with anyone, though. He has sent his most trusted son to bring him the Ring.

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=Finrod Felagund]Summary

So...this chapter has the least action of almost any other chapter in the Lord of the Rings...it is basically all talk.


The chapter begins with Frodo waking up, taking a walk with Sam and meeting up wih Gandalf and Bilbo.

Then the Council begins.

There are 11 speakers in this chapter:
Bilbo
Gandalf
Frodo
Sam
Elrond
Gloin
Boromir
Aragorn
Legolas
Galdor of the Havens
Erestor
Glorfindel

And in addition 9 more characters are quoted directly
Dain
the Messenger from Mordor
Isildur
Saruman
Radagast
Denethor
Barliman Butterbur
Gwaihir
the Gaffer

Not to mention counless characters who mentioned in detail and in passing


hey! I'm intrigued - can't remember that bit, what was the direct quote from Barliman Butterbur?? really like to know! :cool:

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=Finrod Felagund]You have no idea how hard it is to Summarize 43 pages of dialogue.

Try editing summarising and subtitling a 1hr discourse on Hypnothreapy!
(its the subtitling bit that's rally the killer!)

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Durin1
Let's face it, why would either race waste their energies on being overtly against each other?

Olmer:
Can you answer this rhetorical question, which all nations of the world continue to ask since the dawn of human race?[/QUOTE]

May not always agree with him, But you've got to give it to Olmer there!

Generally i find his posts refreshing and thought-provoking, and agree with some of it, whilst finding overall that it tends to have a consistent slant i am not in tune with personally - but like i said: certainly thought provoking and in the above quote: UNCONTESTABLE!

[Butterbeer]

I agree Val, the Nazgul just radiate evil and might have 'given away the game' as they say.

I don't see why sending Gloin and Gimli to Rivendell was some sort of conspiracy theory. Elrond and the other elves there had nothing against Dwarves, as Elrond demonstrated.

Further, it is made abundantly clear in this chapter (by Elrond) that all Free Peoples of Middle-earth are to be represented in the Fellowship - Nine Walkers against Nine Riders.

Finrod, your summary of this chapter is completely brilliant! Nice job. I really like this chapter so it was very enjoyable to read, but I can see that it would have been difficult! :)


*tippetty-tap - posting tonight! frenzy!!*
Yup agree with you Nurvingel (& Valandil) : also agree one of the best summaries of a chapter ,i, in my relative freshness to Entmoot, have read: well edited!

Quote: "Elrond and the other elves there had nothing against Dwarves" - well yeah kinda basically in tune with you generally there, but as a statement it seems a bit wide or vague certainly in historical terms - what i mean by that is: i'm sure Olmer could quite justifiably - if you are that way inclined to view it that way could for a change! - at least on some of it! shred that statement to bits (maybe he does later in the post? I, as usual am jumping in BIg FEET first as per).

By the way i had a really good ( for once) repost to the Ring (being sentient? / isludur jumping in river /corrupting him /bombadil (power over ring etc) thread, but somehow lost it from my computer and felt the (rare) inspiration gone never to be seen in this fair world again? Shame: but ce la vie.
As i recall i again found olmer's iideas refreshing and thought provoking with elements of justification in there and also Gorbis's ideas to a degree also, although overall thought they went too far (olmers anyway)

sorry i can't recall the peoper name of that discussion, perhaps you could post it if necessary????
:confused:

[Butterbeer]

I guess I don't see that, Nurvingiel. Where is the Mouth described as having a breath that hisses like snakes, whose presence strikes inexplicable terror into those who stand near, can not make his voice sound fair and has a fell voice? If anything, the description of the Mouth. So while some of the points could apply to the Mouth or another like him, these features seem to me to speak only of the Nazgul.

As for trusting the Mouth, how do we know he was as loyal as a Nazgul and wouldn't be tempted by the Ring? EVERYONE, even Gandalf and Galadriel, though loyal to the Free Peoples and the Valar are tempted by it, and resist the temptation. WOuld the Mouth have so resisted? Saruman didn't.


I'm not sure that that is true. Bilbo and Frodo frequently used the Ring and Sauron didn't know. And when Frodo puts on the Ring on Amon Hen, is the wearing of the Ring, or the wearing of the Ring on Amon Hen that alerts Sauron? Even then, he can't pinpoint its location. And Tolkien does not say that ONLY Sauron can master it, just that it would take a "large" person to do so, someone perhaps like Gandalf or Galadriel rather than Frodo or Gollum.

And the point of course isn't whether or not the Mouth COULD master the Ring so much as he would be tempted to do so...even Isildur attempted it.



I disagree here too: Boromir's idea was shot down because the Ring was evil, none can wield unless they have a great power of their own, and the Ring would corrupt. The Mouth is already "corrupt" and evil, has a great power of his own (like Isildur except that he has long studied "sorcery" under Sauron), he's a very good candidate to try and master the Ring.

FB


yup pretty much agree with all that: IMHO twas' a Nazgul (fair play it coula' been MOS but don't think so)
Agree MOS might possibly have tried to take ring in - though in practice no way it would have worked - finding the Shire?? findng a hobbit called Baggins etc on his own, across whole stretches of wilderland etc all time sauron and the nazgul wondering where he's got off to??? Nah not practical - but agree he may have been tempted to try: would sauron welcome this? Possibly - on Amon Hen he sensed the ring and his eye over great distance swept the hill top several times until gandalf sitting in a high place himself helped out - but given time (plenty more time than it would have taken MOS to learn to -if possible for him, control and make full use of the ring) Sauron WOULD have located the ring eventually.

[Butterbeer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inked
So, TD, what has that to do with the discussion?

We were discussing why Boromir and not Faramir. Knowledge of the Ring was not present to B, F, or D. It isn't necessary to explain their interactions and we haven't resorted to it. It's all about the dysfunctional relationships within the Denethorian family.


Durin:
Which doesn't belong to the remit of this chapter. Faramir and Denethor are hardly mentioned.

Can we keep to things more relevant to what is DISCUSSED during the Council?
__________________
Durin the Sleepless!

INked: paraphrase: my pardon!


Classic !
- er know this off subject but found whole Faramir/ Boromir / Denethor / why dream etc fascinating. - Was it not an original question from FF though??
Right - forgot what i was going to say now.
:o

[CrazySquirrel]

I wonder why didn't they send elves like Glorfindel or Elrond's sons with the company instead of the fool of a Pippin at least.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

because gandalf advised against it, and elrond had to bow to the superior intellect of a maia

[Olmer]

I wonder why didn't they send elves like Glorfindel or Elrond's sons with the company instead of the fool of a Pippin at least.
Because Glorfindel, indeed , can't do the task which was heaved by Frodo-the hobbit. As Elrond profoundly declared:"It is fate that the HOBBITS should rid the world of it".. (HOME,"The Retutn of the Shadow")
If interested, here is the whole tread on this subject:
Why have Merry & Pippin in Fellowship? (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=10560)

[Finrod Felagund]

I actually agree partly with you on this Gaffer. I remember one of my first (naive) readings of LoTR when I was young(er) ;) and I thought to myself: But WHY don't they TRY and use it!!! I always thought that Boromir had a valid point and was probably just airing what others must have been thinking. However, ultimately it was this "desire" to do good that led to Boromir's downfall.

I once read an interesting quote...I THINK it was in Unfinished Tales maybe...

But in effect, it said that Boromir's desire for the ring largely echoes Melkor (Morgot), in the Silmarillion. From a desire for light, caem darkness. They both wanted, in essence, to create something beautiful or pure...but in naivety, both went about it on their own in their own way, and ended in only darkness and pain.


Also...in re-reading Olmers first posts in the thread here...I really can see where he's coming from...perhaps not the full extent.

Certainly, they wanted advice...but I see also a desire to be included, as the dwarves largely weren't in the last Alliance. They didn't want to become obsolete.
And also, I think a desire to see that their interests were put forward regarding the ring, so that indeed, it didn't end up going to the elves or anything like that.
And lastly, perhaps a genuine curiosity about this ring that little Bilbo had and the Dark Lord so desired.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

All this hoo-rah about why certain representatives were sent to the Council misses an obvious point. This was "top brass only". Other than Elrond's personal buddies,(and some riff-raff Gandalf dragged in;) ) the representatives were the Heir of Isildur, the king's son from Mirkwood, the king's son from Minas Tirith (for all intents and purposes) and a senior member of the royal family of the Lonely Mountain. Elrond felt these people were "meant" to be the ones at this decision point. And Denethor sent Boromir because he was less "subtle" and therefore less subject to either inadvertently revealing Denethor's machinations or being subverted to Gandalf's 'greater cause'. And Borormir wanted to go, because he was a big sword carrying ass, and a lengthy journey through hazardous terrain to a hidden valley was just his cuppa.

But maybe (without bringing in all kinds of books authored by Chris Tolkien ;) ) someone could tell me what "Saruman ring maker", as quoted by Gandalf, is supposed to refer to. I always felt that was kind of a red herring Tolkien later dropped.

[Earniel]

I always kind of suspected that Saruman wasn't just interested in finding the One Ring, but also in the skills and processes of Ring-making. Therefore I thought it very likely he also experimented and attempted ring-making and that Gandalf had found out. Considering the damage the ring-making craft had wreaked in the wrong hands, a throw-away mention of Saruman's ring-making endeavours may have been a simple way of trying to show how dangerous Saruman could be, or maybe how deep his obsession for the rings of power had become. Pure speculation on my part, however.

Or maybe Gandalf was just this teeny bit vindicated about being locked on the top of the tower, that he couldn't resist a quick jab in the direction of Saruman. :p Something akin to Saruman's use of 'Radagast the bird-tamer'?

[Butterbeer]

haven't much of a clue what we are on about - but some of my old posts made me laugh - somet' about keeping to the discussion? :p :D

I tend to disagree Duke S - "top brass" for me was not, i feel, the point - but rather a calling and of those that were called seems important - regardless of how shiny their "brass" might be.

I think the theme here was more inclusive, and at this stage of composition to JRR, far more important in redefining his world after 'the Hobbit'.

...............

Wotcha Eärniel! - How's things? ..long time!

Since Saruman created his own minor ring, i'd say that is true - but to my mind, then the more interesting angle is - if - that is the major consideration - how much, and by when, was he influenced and tainted by looking into the palantir of orthanc?

Because, if that was in his mind- then i'd suggest it was planted there- as i doubt a Major ring was at this time possible from learned Lore, after the ONE was made.

What do you think?

[Earniel]

*waves to BB*

If Saruman was practising ring-making, I'm pretty sure most of the knowlegde must have been coming from Mordor via the PalantÃ*r. The Gwaith-I-Mirdain had pretty much all perished, so that 'fountain' of lore was equally pretty much gone. And Sauron was after all, the original source of the craft, so it's logically Saruman got some from him. Sauron on his part may just have been feeding Saruman little tidbits to keep him hooked.

[Forkbeard]

*waves to BB*

If Saruman was practising ring-making, I'm pretty sure most of the knowlegde must have been coming from Mordor via the PalantÃ*r. The Gwaith-I-Mirdain had pretty much all perished, so that 'fountain' of lore was equally pretty much gone. And Sauron was after all, the original source of the craft, so it's logically Saruman got some from him. Sauron on his part may just have been feeding Saruman little tidbits to keep him hooked.

But hadn't both been Maia of Aule?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

*clears throat*
In LOTR, folks, not UT or summat.

There's no evidence that Saruman used rings (his own or anyone else's) at all. His staff, that's the issue. Without his staff, he could "make mischief in a small mean way." according to Gandalf, talking to Treebeard.

But that's much later. In THIS chapter, Gandalf brings it up, and it never reappears, although they run through the list of the original rings.

Why?

[Butterbeer]

.. you mean apart from all the incontovertible evidence that Saruman had made himself a ring?

other than that ... :p ... do carry on!

*passes Duke S a throat pastle - very good for coughs and sore throats*

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

.. you mean apart from all the incontovertible evidence that Saruman had made himself a ring?

other than that ... :p ... do carry on!

*passes Duke S a throat pastle - very good for coughs and sore throats*
Thank you. Tell me about this ring, then. :p

[Forkbeard]

Thank you. Tell me about this ring, then. :p

Gandalf explicitly mentions it in his report to the Council and as I recall it is mentioned in UT: Hunt for the Ring.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Gandalf explicitly mentions it in his report to the Council and as I recall it is mentioned in UT: Hunt for the Ring.
out of bounds, technical foul. Which report to the council? This one? He reports that Saruman goes on about "I am Saruman of many colors! Ringmaker!" bwahahaha etc. but what happens next? Is there any first hand (really, this isn't intentional, today.);)report of it? Is anyone detailed to collect it from Orthanc, after Saruman is defeated?

In LOTR, and not in those endless tidying up materials from Chris' basement clearouts, what happens to an obviously significant (if extant) weapon?

[Valandil]

sis...

Several paragraphs before the, "I am Saruman... Ring-maker", we have Gandalf's description of his arrival at Isengard:

'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.'

(boldness is mine) ;)

So - Gandalf explicitly mentions seeing a ring on Saruman's finger, and then that Saruman proclaimed himself "Ring-maker". I think Tolkien is clearly hinting to us that Saruman is trying to dabble in the making of rings of power.

[The Gaffer]

Plus he is explicitly acknowledged as the most knowledgeable member of the White Council when it comes to Rings of Power. More knowledgeable than the bearers of the Three...

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Good. So what happens to it?

[Rían]

when he falls off the tower and onto the spiky thing and it rotates around and he goes plunk into the water, the ring falls off and the monster thing in front of Moria eats it ...


oh wait, that's the movie ....



;)

[Olmer]

So what happens to it?
Hm... What happened? It stayed with the wielder. So, Saruman has chances to come back. I'm sure that the ring on his finger has been the real Ring of power, maybe, not such potent as the One, but nevertheless the first one close to the originals. After all elves made a lot of experimental rings before they finally were able to grasp the whole conceptualization of Sauron's idea.
As Forkbeard has previously mentioned, originally both of them are Maiar of Aule.
What would Sauron come up with, which wouldn't be undestandable to the Wisest of the Wise, to Saruman (Curunir, the "Men-of-skill"), the eldest of the Order of Wizards, with "deep" knowledge and "marvellously skilled" hands.
As I see, Tolkien already hinted on such possibility of the Ring making.
'Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.' (LoTR )
Then, if we will take in account the fact that he, indeed, made the Power Ring of his own ( power of the One Ring, as I suggested, was greatly exagerated by Sauron, for the main purpouse of the Ring was channeling the magic and the life force to the owner), we might say that as time goes by Saruman has very great chances to take a visible shape again (like in 21 century? )and became a powerfull evil figure. :eek:

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Hm... What happened? It stayed with the wielder. So, Saruman has chances to come back. I'm sure that the ring on his finger has been the real Ring of power, maybe, not such potent as the One, but nevertheless the first one close to the originals. After all elves made a lot of experimental rings before they finally were able to grasp the whole conceptualization of Sauron's idea.
As Forkbeard has previously mentioned, originally both of them are Maiar of Aule.
What would Sauron come up with, which wouldn't be undestandable to the Wisest of the Wise, to Saruman (Curunir, the "Men-of-skill"), the eldest of the Order of Wizards, with "deep" knowledge and "marvellously skilled" hands.
As I see, Tolkien already hinted on such possibility of the Ring making.
'Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.' (LoTR )
Then, if we will take in account the fact that he, indeed, made the Power Ring of his own ( power of the One Ring, as I suggested, was greatly exagerated by Sauron, for the main purpouse of the Ring was channeling the magic and the life force to the owner), we might say that as time goes by Saruman has very great chances to take a visible shape again (like in 21 century? )and became a powerfull evil figure. :eek:
Where's the quote from, Olmer?

[The Gaffer]

Then, if we will take in account the fact that he, indeed, made the Power Ring of his own ( power of the One Ring, as I suggested, was greatly exagerated by Sauron, for the main purpouse of the Ring was channeling the magic and the life force to the owner), we might say that as time goes by Saruman has very great chances to take a visible shape again (like in 21 century? )and became a powerfull evil figure. :eek:
Oh blimey

http://www.funnyandjokes.com/pictures/images/bush_lord-of-the-rings.jpg

[Rían]

rofl!! :D

[The Gaffer]

The old ones are always the best.. :)

[Rían]

Hey, I'm only 48!


;)

[Olmer]

Where's the quote from, Olmer?
LoTR The Foreword. :)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

LoTR The Foreword. :)
Okay, looked it up. That's not what it says.

Exact quote (from my August 1971 printing of fellowship)pg x. (emphasis mine)

The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dur would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Morder the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.

Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.

Tolkien says it didn't happen, and that it might have happened in an alternate universe that he personally would "dislike".

No ring for Saruman. :p

[Valandil]

:
:
:
No ring for Saruman. :p

While Olmer's quote may have seemed misleading without the surrounding context, it does say that Saruman might (in that case) have "found in Mordor the missing links in his own research into Ring-lore"

So I think you draw the wrong conclusion - especially to look at this part from the forward only, and not the parts in "The Council of Elrond".

It's inaccurate to say, "No ring for Saruman"

It IS accurate to say, "No Great Ring for Saruman!" :)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

While Olmer's quote may have seemed misleading without the surrounding context, it does say that Saruman might (in that case) have "found in Mordor the missing links in his own research into Ring-lore"

So I think you draw the wrong conclusion - especially to look at this part from the forward only, and not the parts in "The Council of Elrond".

It's inaccurate to say, "No ring for Saruman"

It IS accurate to say, "No Great Ring for Saruman!" :)
No "ring of power" for Saruman? How many levels of ring are we assuming? Is having a ring of power like being pregnant...either one is or one isn't? ;)

In the Council of Elrond, I see that Gandalf reports Saruman calls himself "Saruman ring maker." You say (and I verified) that "he wore a ring on his finger".

But he also wore robes "woven of all colours". Those weren't magical. Where does it say that this ring is significant, and, if it is, why isn't it collected? :p

[Valandil]

Why? I don't know. But Gandalf seems to really be making a point about it in this chapter - noting that Saruman both wore a ring, and called himself a "ring-maker". I think Gandalf calling attention to it gives it a good deal of significance - especially since the plot of this story revolves around rings, not robes of many colors.

Tolkien never really defined with finality whether the sum total of all rings of power was 1 + 3 + 7 + 9 = 20. Some times he seems to indicate so, other times that there were additional, "lesser" rings (which works well with Gandalf not realizing the true identity of the One when Bilbo finds it).

But... I don't suppose ALL the loose ends in this story got tidied up. Maybe Saruman lost it, or threw it away. Maybe it vanished into smoke when he did. Maybe it was picked up from where he had fallen and became an heirloom of a shire family. But being likely "lesser" in nature, and without a connection to Sauron (him being now dead with more finality), it may have had no power to work harm. Maybe it became powerless with the destruction of the One, and the death of Sauron (in which case, again, Saruman may have discarded it in bitterness).

So - I don't know what happened to it ultimately, but I've seen enough to be convinced that Saruman was dabbling in the making of Rings of Power, and possibly achieved some limited results.

[Olmer]

Okay, looked it up. That's not what it says.
You looked up? What an inquisitive soul you are!! :)

Of course, I could quote a half of chapter, but I'm prefering to give "narrowed to the point" quotes, so the main idea wouldn't be lost in too much "water". :)
And the main Tolkien's idea is that Saruman, a disciple of Aule and the most advanced among maiar, could very well able to create the ring of Power of his own.
If Tolkien wanted to reject such notions completely, he wouldn't be toying with an idea of the posibility of Saruman's come back.
He is saying in his Letters that the 'next' evil in Middle Earth will be 'afoot', and in his barely started sequence of LOTR he is sprouting this idea that the "evil" did not disappear completely, and it's coming back. "Deep indeed runs the roots of Evil,...and the black sap is strong in them. That tree will never be slain. Let men hew it as often as they may, it will thrust up shoots again as soon as they turn aside."(HoME. XII)
But more strong suggestion could be found in the last sentences, when the youngest son of Beregond, who still remembers the War and terrifying attacks of the Ringbearers, upon going alone at night, all of a sudden has got a peculiar feeling."Suddenly he smelt it,...he smelt the old Evil and knew it for what it was."
Seems almost plausible to me that Saruman's ring could help him to materialise himself in some way, or with his Ring he came back as a spirit of evilness.

So, true, Tolkien did not say that it has happened in the Third age, but he did not discard the idea of such event in the ME future, and not in "an alternate universe ". :cool:

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

So your argument is, "Yes, Tolkien dropped the ball on this idea in LOTR, but, according to one of those boxes of stuff his son had printed, he considered adding it in someway, somewhere."

I see.

A "narrowed to the point quote" that wasn't an "edited to prove an opposite" quote would be better form. ;) You have undermined your credibility, here.:p

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Why? I don't know. But Gandalf seems to really be making a point about it in this chapter - noting that Saruman both wore a ring, and called himself a "ring-maker". I think Gandalf calling attention to it gives it a good deal of significance - especially since the plot of this story revolves around rings, not robes of many colors.
See, here is where we differ. I don't think this story is about rings. It's not the Sil. And Saruman is a proved liar. Maybe he just throws in the ring bit to make himself seem important. Rings are tools in it, perhaps, but the story is essentially about the Hobbits, who have come to "trouble the councils of the great."
Now, I'm sure Tolkien was a little ambivilent about that. He'd already shopped around his sweeping mythological pet project, and been assured by friends no one cared. People, however, wanted to hear more about HOBBITS. So he spent a number of years telling that story, which emerged as LOTR. After its original success he did some editing, but it didn't become the Silmarillion, because it couldn't.
Tolkien never really defined with finality whether the sum total of all rings of power was 1 + 3 + 7 + 9 = 20. In LOTR it is. They count them, often. Gandalf establishes the wherabouts of all of them during this chapter, "except for the Three, which we do not speak of." Some times he seems to indicate so, other times that there were additional, "lesser" rings (which works well with Gandalf not realizing the true identity of the One when Bilbo finds it). Because he believed Saruman, the Council's expert. There was originally doubt, then he did the research on his own. (similar to my process, here ;) ) He doesn't say, "So, that's the A list, but we'll be on the lookout for other rings, because there's a few lying around, probably. " Or, "Treebeard, keep an eye on him and confiscate his jewelry."

But... I don't suppose ALL the loose ends in this story got tidied up. Maybe Saruman lost it, or threw it away. Maybe it vanished into smoke when he did. Maybe it was picked up from where he had fallen and became an heirloom of a shire family. But being likely "lesser" in nature, and without a connection to Sauron (him being now dead with more finality), it may have had no power to work harm. Maybe it became powerless with the destruction of the One, and the death of Sauron (in which case, again, Saruman may have discarded it in bitterness).

So - I don't know what happened to it ultimately, but I've seen enough to be convinced that Saruman was dabbling in the making of Rings of Power, and possibly achieved some limited results.If the story was about Rings, you'd know for sure. ;)

[Valandil]

After re-reading portions of "Rings of Power and the Third Age", I've come to the conclusion that Saruman's ring would have been rendered powerless by the destruction of The One... just like the Three Elven Rings were, although they were made without Sauron touching them.

So... it would have ended up an ornamental piece of jewelry... maybe in the Shire. :)