The Prophecy...?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

As we all know there is a Prophecy in Star Wars that states that there will be a one that will have the power to bring the force into balance. Qui-Gon Jinn beleived this one was Anakin Skywalker, with the highest meteclorian count ever charted it seems plausable. A Human with more "force" in him than even Yoda himself. My question pretains to the idea of balanced. What exactlly is balance to George Lucas? There was a center for Jedi and the training of almost an army of Jedi. Where as the Sith were supposedly two, no more no less. Although I don't feel this is true as during the apprenticship of Darth Maul Count Dooku must have also been in the service of the sith, creating a paradox of three Sith at one time at least. However, that fact aside, there should only be two, master and aprentice. So, what balance is needed? The destruction of the Jedi till there is only two left? Wouldn't that be balanced?
Within the films we see Darth Vader return to Anakin Skywalker and destroy Darth Sideous creating an equality one Jedi one Sith; Luke and Vader. Then Luke watches Vader die and so the force is still unbalanced! This idea really boogles my mind because it never actually works! Any ideas on the whole Prophecy thing!?

[Elessar the Elfstone]

I think Different people see the prophacy in different ways Qui gon and the other jedi thought the chosen one bringing the force into balance would mean something like turning the world into some type of utopia where the force is one with everybody.

but what it really meant was the force was unbalanced because there were 100's of jedi and only two sith so anikain balaces the force by becoming Darth Vader and wiping out all but two jedi Obi Wan and yoda here by forfilling the prophacy.

[Lief Erikson]

Here's one more opinion on the subject.

The Emperor is the imbalance. Destroying this vast evil is what brings balance to the Force.

Look at the Emperor's Force power. It is so great that it can, as Yoda puts it, "blind" the entire Jedi Order.

The Emperor is the most mysterious character in the Star Wars series, thus far. We know nothing about his origins: how he became such an astounding Sith Lord and such. Also, it would be useful to look at his brains. He is an incredibly clever man. His strategies are supremely cunning. He would have destroyed the rebels at Endor if not for circumstances beyond his control (the Ewoks). If Luke had sensed his friends dying, it is possible that he would have been more inclined to turn to the Dark Side as well.

I'm describing what an incredible individual Palpatine was in order to support my argument that he is the imbalance. He is one of the characters I really, really enjoy in the Star Wars series, though.

However, I will admit that there can certainly be more then one opinion on this. I've just stated mine :).

[Lenya]

Did you guyz know that there are actually 9 movies in the saga, and that 7 - 9 has already been made? I don't know if they intend to show them, but I really hope so.

[BeardofPants]

Wrong. Lucas has not made, nor has no plans to make the star wars sequels. They have NOT been made.

[Elessar the Elfstone]

Lucus did once say it would be fun to come back in 10 years and make 7 8 and 9. I also remember watching the bonus DVD in the trilogy boxset and Mark Hamil said he would of liked to do more but then lucus said he isn't going to because it wouls mean writing a completly new story. he only did 1 2 and 3 because the story was already written and he just had to write the script.

So sorry no more Star Wars films after episode III

[Lenya]

It's sorry indeed. I hear what you say, but I remember reading something about it. I'll go and search for it in any case. But I hear what your saying, maybe it's only wishful thinking.

[Lenya]

OK, I found it (proving me wrong :( ) Lucas said he never intended to show them. Damn.

[Elemmírë]

Here's one more opinion on the subject.

The Emperor is the imbalance. Destroying this vast evil is what brings balance to the Force.


I don't think so, Lief. :)

Wonderful. A potential debate where I can use my own philosophy instead of having to abide by the Christian perspective. ;)

I don't think it can be argued that the Force is "good." There exists the Dark Side and the Light Side. Both are necessary and neither would exist without the other. At the time of the Old Republic, the future Emperor would most likely not have been an imbalance. During the Empire, however, this becomes an entirely different story.

IMHO, true balance seems to be a concept that is forever beyond reach. Desiring that balance is like desiring a world without change, one that would be forever stagnant.

That being said, it is likely that in order to bring balance to the Force, the Jedi of the Old Republic had to be wiped out. After that, however, the balance seems to have shifted entirely the other way. At some points, perhaps there was complete balance, but this position was not long maintained. After Vader died, perhaps the balance shifted back again towards the light.

If I remember correctly, all that was claimed was that Vader would balance the Force. And by wiping out the Jedi, he probably did so.

This doesn't mean that it would stay balanced.

[Lenya]

Agreeable. There is deffinately a Light Side and a Dark Side to the Force, though I don't believe that there has ever been a complete balance between them except maybe at the beginning of time. Since the Force is such a big thing in the Star Wars universe, I believe that when this balance is obtained, it will probably be the end of their universe.

[Elessar the Elfstone]

the force is neutral it is the person using the the force that decides where to use it for good or for evil, I believe there has to be an equal amount of light to dark for the force to be balanced. but must have only ever happened for a very short while when the universe was first created. the balance was almost reached again when the only force weilders in the galaxy were Yoda and Obi Wan, Vadar and palpatine. but the dark side at that point had a lot more influance because they were ruling the galaxy. but I also think it is impossible for the force to be perfectly balanced because one side will always be more influentual, unless nobody used the force for any reason when that goal is completed that would be the end of the universe.

[Earniel]

If I remember correctly, all that was claimed was that Vader would balance the Force. And by wiping out the Jedi, he probably did so.
Or perhaps he had to know both sides, had to have been part of both sides to acchieve this balance.

[Wayfarer]

Maybe, since 'always in motion, the future is', the prophecy actually had nothing to do with Anakin, and the person who had 'prophesied' it had really been just making a wild guess. That's my opinion. ;)

[Elemmírë]

It would be. :rolleyes: ;)

Why would a Jedi (I'm assuming it was a Jedi) have made a wild guess about something like that? Keep in mind that when Yoda said that, he had basically told Luke that his friends were in a city among the clouds and, well... doomed. (paraphrasing, obviously... assuming I remember it correctly).

I talk "always in motion, the future is" to mean that because of the many different possible choices in the present, the probability of certain things happening in the future wasn't 100%, or even nearly. Basically, events are written on sand, not in stone.

I think for something to be considered a "prophecy" however, there would have to be a pretty good possibility of it coming to pass. More than a "wild guess," as you put it.

Anyway, it seems to have come true, at least in part. :D

[Lenya]

the force is neutral it is the person using the the force that decides where to use it for good or for evil, I believe there has to be an equal amount of light to dark for the force to be balanced. but must have only ever happened for a very short while when the universe was first created. the balance was almost reached again when the only force weilders in the galaxy were Yoda and Obi Wan, Vadar and palpatine. but the dark side at that point had a lot more influance because they were ruling the galaxy. but I also think it is impossible for the force to be perfectly balanced because one side will always be more influentual, unless nobody used the force for any reason when that goal is completed that would be the end of the universe.

Dude, that's exactly what a said a moment sooner :

Agreeable. There is deffinately a Light Side and a Dark Side to the Force, though I don't believe that there has ever been a complete balance between them except maybe at the beginning of time. Since the Force is such a big thing in the Star Wars universe, I believe that when this balance is obtained, it will probably be the end of their universe.

[Lief Erikson]

Elessar and Elemmire, although I don't have enough time to remember many quotes to support my position, here's one good one. Qui-Gon-Jinn talked about "Midi-clorians always speak to us and tell us the will of the Force." We're talking about one Force, not two forces, one Dark and one Light. Therefore this one Force has one will, and because Qui-Gon-Jinn says the Force is to be listened to and obeyed, the indication is strong that the Force is naturally good. Otherwise Qui-Gon wouldn't tell Anakin to listen to it. The Force seems from this brief conversation with Anakin even to have something of a mind of its own. People that misuse the Force, not obeying its will, would therefore be disturbances in the Force- imbalances.

[Elemmírë]

We're talking about one Force, not two forces, one Dark and one Light. Therefore this one Force has one will, and because Qui-Gon-Jinn says the Force is to be listened to and obeyed, the indication is strong that the Force is naturally good.

Hey there, Lief. :)

You are correct. There are not two Forces and I don't believe anyone has been claiming that there are. There is one, which has both a dark aspect and a light aspect, thus you often hear references to the "Dark Side of the Force." If the Force was naturally good, these references could not exist.

I'll have arguments to back this up, but at the moment I'm wondering if a debate on the nature of the Force is relevent to a discussion of the Prophecy.
Is there another thread we could go to?

[Lief Erikson]

Well, opinions about the nature of the balance or imbalance to the Force in my opinion are very relevant to the discussion. How can one know what the prophecy means if one doesn't understand this point?

I will point out Elemmire that in your post you didn't touch at all on my argument regarding Qui-Gon's statements about midichlorians to Anakin. I suppose I'd have to wait on arguing your points until they come up :). For the record here and now though, I don't think that saying that the Force has a Dark Side does mean that it is not good. I look upon people that use the Force in this way as misusers of the Force. There is not a "will of the Dark Side" that we know of, but only a will of the Force. This Force the Jedi listen to and obey. Therefore either the Force is good or the Jedi are bad. But something good can be misused. Misusing of good things can be very tempting. For example the Internet. It serves much good purpose, yet it can be used for evil, and using it for evil can be very tempting to some people. Those evil things are considered by governments and many civilized individuals to be essentially like "imbalance". The technology is good, but "the Internet has its Dark Side", which we impose on it. This Dark Side is imbalance also, and the Internet certainly could survive without it. It is a good thing that has a natural "will" designed by programers, which can be misused. The difficulty is that I think the Force seems more like a personal creature from Qui-Gon's conversation with Anakin, ("you will hear [the midichlorians] speaking to you, telling you the will of the Force") whereas the Internet is not as personal. This personal creature is being misused, mistreated, by the Emperor and other Dark Force users. The Internet might exist, but the "light side" does not work until users manipulate it. The "dark side" also does not work on its own. The Internet was programmed for the light side, therefore any dark side use is a misuse, an "imbalance", as it would be called in Star Wars. The Force is a somewhat different creature then the Internet, so I don't know if the word "balance" can be applied to the Force.

Anyway, there's my opinion on the references to the Dark Side.

[Elemmírë]

Alright. Operation Thread Hijack has officially begun. :D

Sorry, Lief. I didn't touch on everything before, and I'm not going to be able to until tomorrow now also... :o

I think the most interesting thing about the Force (and correct me if I'm wrong... my friends are watching RotK in my room, so I can't put the movies on ;) ) is that Luke is never told to follow the "light side" of the Force.

In fact, unless I missed something (quite possible), the "light side" is never referred to at all. Only the Force, and the Dark Side of the Force.

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say that the Force is part neutral and part evil, but not at all good. Au contraire, I am actually trying to say that to follow the Force is to strive neither for good nor for evil, but to simply allow the Force to guide your steps and to live by it.

When one strives too much in either direction, one risks the chance of falling into the Dark Side. During the Empire Strikes Back (you'll notice I prefer to stick with the original trilogy), Luke is warned by Yoda that if he does the seemingly "right" thing and tries to save Han and Leia, he will risk all that they have fought for. He can never be considered an "evil" character, obviously, but by striving too much for "goodness" he constantly risks falling into the Dark Side.

You are either in balance, or out of balance.

I am tempted to say that being in balance is to be "good" and to follow the Force, and being out of balance is to fall into "evil" and into the Dark Side, but I am not sure if that is technically correct.

I'll add more later... my friend is getting horribly confused with the movie... :D

[edited] Need to go again in a minute... but I think some of this might actually not be in conflict with what you are saying. :)

Basically I'm looking at it from another philosophical and religious point of view.

[Lief Erikson]

When one strives too much in either direction, one risks the chance of falling into the Dark Side. During the Empire Strikes Back (you'll notice I prefer to stick with the original trilogy), Luke is warned by Yoda that if he does the seemingly "right" thing and tries to save Han and Leia, he will risk all that they have fought for. He can never be considered an "evil" character, obviously, but by striving too much for "goodness" he constantly risks falling into the Dark Side.
Yoda was warning Luke that he might be able to help his friends, but Vader would capture him, seduce him to the Dark Side, and then that would be the end of the Rebel Alliance, "all they fought for". Rather like Anakin in Episode 2 trying to save Padmé at the expense of the Republic. "Help her you could, but you would destroy all she fought for . . ." ;)

[Elemmírë]

Yoda was warning Luke that he might be able to help his friends, but Vader would capture him, seduce him to the Dark Side, and then that would be the end of the Rebel Alliance, "all they fought for". Rather like Anakin in Episode 2 trying to save Padmé at the expense of the Republic. "Help her you could, but you would destroy all she fought for . . ." ;)

It is certainly an interpretation, but is it actually made clear?

In either case, IMHO it holds that by trying to do good, by intervening Luke's efforts would result in the exact opposite occurring. The manner in which he falls to the Dark Side might be irrelevent, actually, the only important thing being that he would fall.

So... where were we? Is this about to turn into a theological debate? ;)

[Lief Erikson]

There is no evil done by using the Force for good and trying to rescue his friends. Obi-Wan was using the Force for good in exactly that way in Episode 4, but he was a fully trained Jedi Knight, not capable of being turned to the Dark Side. Luke was a young hotshot teenage pilot- not someone very capable of taking on an enemy of the likes of Vader and winning. I think the interpretation I've always held of that part of the movie holds quite steady. Remember that when Luke was getting into his ship to leave Dagobah, Yoda and Obi-Wan continually were warning him not only about the dangers of the Dark Side, but about the dangers of Darth Vader in particular. Yoda said, "Strong is Vader! Bind what you have learned! Save you it can!" as his parting plea to get Luke to stay. Luke wasn't experienced enough, wasn't trained enough, to handle what was out there. Rescuing his friends might be a good thing, but Luke was just not ready.

Anyway, I'm really tired and busy at the moment, so I'll just leave the discussion there :).

[Elemmírë]

Okay then, we can continue tomorrow. Watching The Empire Strikes Back at 2 in the morning is never a good idea...

Anyway, I got past the Dagobah part, and your interpretation does hold.

Obi-Wan was using the Force for good in exactly that way in Episode 4, but he was a fully trained Jedi Knight, not capable of being turned to the Dark Side.

IMO, a fully trained Jedi Knight is most certainly capable of being turned to the Dark Side. It is simply less likely.

IMO, Obi-wan did not use the Force in the way that Luke was trying to. My half-asleep brain cannot pinpoint any parts where in Episode IV Obi-Wan directly used the Force to destroy someone using the Dark Side. In fact, he allowed himself to be killed.

There is no evil done by using the Force for good and trying to rescue his friends.

Au contraire, he might not have been turned to the Dark Side at that time, but he learned truths about himself that he was not ready for... that could have destroyed him. And what good did his interference do? None whatsoever. He did not save Han or Leia, he only nearly got himself killed.

Ah. Another point supporting the idea that the Force is in balance when the Dark Side and the "light" are equal. It is not simply the Dark which is considered a disturbance. The Emperor mentions about Luke that "There is a disturbance in the Force."

For my own part (don't remember if I've said this yet), I do not believe that the Force is good or evil. Yoda alludes to the idea that the Force is simply the compilation of all life (don't remember the exact words). It seems to me that the Force is beyond good or evil, and is both and neither.

Eh... I think I had more to say, but I honestly don't remember. Time to finish the movie and go to bed. We'll continue this later. :)

[edited] :eek: Somehow I missed the whole end! :rolleyes:

[Lief Erikson]

IMO, a fully trained Jedi Knight is most certainly capable of being turned to the Dark Side. It is simply less likely.
I agree.
IMO, Obi-wan did not use the Force in the way that Luke was trying to.
They went out trying to rescue a princess and the Rebel Alliance. It was a heroic mission, just as Luke's was :). Remember, there is also a clear parallel between what Luke did in Empire and what Anakin did in Clones. They both were going out to save someone else, and both of them in my opinion were trying to do something good and noble. They just weren't well enough trained.
My half-asleep brain cannot pinpoint any parts where in Episode IV Obi-Wan directly used the Force to destroy someone using the Dark Side. In fact, he allowed himself to be killed.
In Episode 1 he certainly used the Force to kill. Note how I prefer to stick to the prequels in this discussion ;).
Au contraire, he might not have been turned to the Dark Side at that time, but he learned truths about himself that he was not ready for... that could have destroyed him. And what good did his interference do? None whatsoever. He did not save Han or Leia, he only nearly got himself killed.
I agree. But the fact that it did not work certainly doesn't mean it wasn't a good thing that he tried to do, or that his attempt was "evil". It was simply that he wasn't ready. That was also the point that Yoda and Obi-Wan kept driving home to him, if you recall (you were watching the movie quite late ;) ). They continually urged him, as Yoda said, "you must complete the training." They weren't saying his goal or effort was at all bad- they were saying he just wasn't ready.
Ah. Another point supporting the idea that the Force is in balance when the Dark Side and the "light" are equal. It is not simply the Dark which is considered a disturbance. The Emperor mentions about Luke that "There is a disturbance in the Force."
Wouldn't a terrorist using the Internet find a cop using the Internet "disturbing"? ;)
For my own part (don't remember if I've said this yet), I do not believe that the Force is good or evil. Yoda alludes to the idea that the Force is simply the compilation of all life (don't remember the exact words). It seems to me that the Force is beyond good or evil, and is both and neither.
I know that in the Original Series, both Yoda and Obi-Wan make explanations of what the Force is, neither of which include it having a will of its own for good. That is something about the nature of the Force that is revealed in Episode 1. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan says anything that refutes the idea that the Force is good and has a will. In fact, Han Solo in Episode 4 suggested that it does have a will of its own. "There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny. It's all a bunch of simple tricks and nonsense." That the Force should be spoken of as controlling people's destinies suggests that the movie makers may have intended the Force to have a will, even from Episode 4.

[Elemmírë]

They both were going out to save someone else, and both of them in my opinion were trying to do something good and noble. They just weren't well enough trained.

Yes. By all definitions, trying to save someone else is "good and noble." However, when one tries to force interference - especially without understanding - a good cause will inevitably turn to evil results.

Thus... we find them constantly being rescued by other people. ;)

In Episode 1 he certainly used the Force to kill. Note how I prefer to stick to the prequels in this discussion ;).

You're right. He did use the Force to kill in the prequels. You'll also remember that he was not fully trained or as aware of himself and the nature of the Force as he would be later, in the duel with Darth Vader. ;)

Would you like to hear my little theory on that as well? :p

I think you're just trying to annoy me, knowing that I can't stand the prequels. :rolleyes: ;)

This is going to be an interesting debate, with you sticking to one group of movies and me to the other. :p

I agree. But the fact that it did not work certainly doesn't mean it wasn't a good thing that he tried to do, or that his attempt was "evil". It was simply that he wasn't ready. That was also the point that Yoda and Obi-Wan kept driving home to him, if you recall (you were watching the movie quite late ;) ). They continually urged him, as Yoda said, "you must complete the training." They weren't saying his goal or effort was at all bad- they were saying he just wasn't ready.

Sure it was a good thing he tried to do. The attempt wasn't evil, it just turned to evil ends because when one tries to force interference, it seems to be a common theme that the result will always be the opposite. :)

Wouldn't a terrorist using the Internet find a cop using the Internet "disturbing"? ;)

The Emperor did not say that a Rebel using the Force was "disturbing." He said that there was a "disturbance." IMO, these are two entirely different concepts.

While undoubtedly the Emperor probably did find Luke's strength disturbing, I believe that he was referring to the fact that his very presence and strength was causing a disturbance in the Force by causing the balance to shift more towards the light.

I know that in the Original Series, both Yoda and Obi-Wan make explanations of what the Force is, neither of which include it having a will of its own for good. That is something about the nature of the Force that is revealed in Episode 1. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan says anything that refutes the idea that the Force is good and has a will. In fact, Han Solo in Episode 4 suggested that it does have a will of its own. "There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny. It's all a bunch of simple tricks and nonsense." That the Force should be spoken of as controlling people's destinies suggests that the movie makers may have intended the Force to have a will, even from Episode 4.

The only problem with your quote is that it is given by Han Solo, who admits that he doesn't believe in the Force. By Obi-Wan's comments, I always got the impression that it was a "force" flowing through you, and would guide your actions if you allowed it the chance.

Another note of interest: In ESB, Yoda announces that he will be unable to teach Luke because the boy has no patience. Patience seems to be a common theme throughout, and a necessary quality to be at one with the Force.

Look at Han, for example. All throughout ESB he was unable to slow down and unwilling to listen to the people around him who could have told him time and again what was wrong (primarily, the fact that the hyperdrive never seemed to work). It always seems that someone knows about these problems, but nobody slows down enough to listen to them.

While a lack of patience is neither evil nor falling to the Dark Side, I believe it shows that one is not at one with the Force.

[Lief Erikson]

Yes. By all definitions, trying to save someone else is "good and noble." However, when one tries to force interference - especially without understanding - a good cause will inevitably turn to evil results.

Thus... we find them constantly being rescued by other people. ;)



You're right. He did use the Force to kill in the prequels. You'll also remember that he was not fully trained or as aware of himself and the nature of the Force as he would be later, in the duel with Darth Vader. ;)
Remember that in RoTJ he urged Luke to kill Vader.

Obi-Wan: "You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again."
Luke: "I can't kill my own father."
Obi-Wan: "Then the Empire has already won."

In the same conversation, Obi-Wan even advised Luke not to try turning Anakin back to the light side.
Would you like to hear my little theory on that as well? :p

I think you're just trying to annoy me, knowing that I can't stand the prequels. :rolleyes: ;)

This is going to be an interesting debate, with you sticking to one group of movies and me to the other. :p
:evil:
The Emperor did not say that a Rebel using the Force was "disturbing." He said that there was a "disturbance." IMO, these are two entirely different concepts.

While undoubtedly the Emperor probably did find Luke's strength disturbing, I believe that he was referring to the fact that his very presence and strength was causing a disturbance in the Force by causing the balance to shift more towards the light.
Well, I disagree. If a disturbance is a mess-up of the balance of the Force, then the Force would have been way out of balance when the Jedi Order was at its height, and Obi-Wan wouldn't have been able to call Darth Maul a disturbance, as he did in the beginning of Episode 1.
The only problem with your quote is that it is given by Han Solo, who admits that he doesn't believe in the Force. By Obi-Wan's comments, I always got the impression that it was a "force" flowing through you, and would guide your actions if you allowed it the chance.
Ah yes. That's good. I forgot about the part where Luke said, "you mean it controls your actions?" Obi-Wan said, "partially. But it also obeys your commands."

I don't think there is any problem with the Han Solo quote. If he was mistaken in his assumptions about how the Force was supposed to behave, I don't think the movie-makers would have included his statement in the movie. All it serves to do is distract movie audiences from the real way the Force works. The question was whether the Force exists or not- not how it works. Technically you're right- Han Solo could have been goofed up in his impressions of how the Force works. Yet there's no reason for the movie-makers to make one of the characters make those mistakes. I'm certain the movie-makers didn't intend Han to be wrong in about how the Force works- he was simply wrong in that it does exist. The question they were debating was whether or not the Force exists- not how it works.

I think I agree a good deal with your comments about patience. Yoda said it himself. "Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things." Patience is important to true attunement with the Force. With the Light Side anyway ;).

[Elemmírë]

Remember that in RoTJ he urged Luke to kill Vader.

Obi-Wan: "You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again."
Luke: "I can't kill my own father."
Obi-Wan: "Then the Empire has already won."

In the same conversation, Obi-Wan even advised Luke not to try turning Anakin back to the light side.

Even true Jedi screw up sometimes. ;)

The fact of the matter is that Luke did not kill Vader.

"Do or do not. There is no try."

:evil:

:rolleyes: :p ;)

Well, I disagree. If a disturbance is a mess-up of the balance of the Force, then the Force would have been way out of balance when the Jedi Order was at its height, and Obi-Wan wouldn't have been able to call Darth Maul a disturbance, as he did in the beginning of Episode 1.

The Force seems to have been way out of balance in ESB, but Luke was still considered a "disturbance."

And thus we are brought full circle and back to the debate at hand.

I actually think it was possible that the Force was out of balance when the Jedi Order was at its height. Currently, I have two theories on the whole matter, one which rides upon this, and one which does not.

Now. My original theory revolves around the idea that the "light" side of the force is comparable to the Taoist "yang", the positive energy of the universe, along with a lot of other things. You have to remember that a lot of ideas in Star Wars are borrowed from Eastern philosophies, especially Chinese Taoism. If you want to know more about this before we continue debating, I'll post it later. :)

By equating the Force with the Tao in this manner, the Dark Side is equivalent to the "yin," negative energy and so forth. According to Taoist philosophy, one must not strive or favour either side over the other, but seek balance. This is where Taoism comes into conflict with the Jedi Knights, who are obviously favouring the "light" side at the expense of the "dark" side.

One interpretation is that this means that the Force is out of balance, due to the actions of the Jedi, leading to the stagnantation of the Old Republic and a return to balance brought on by the obviously negative actions of Vader and Palpatine.

Or... maybe not.

Here's my other theory:

The Force may be equated to the Tao, but the "light" and Dark Side cannot be equated to yang and yin. I've begun to edge more towards this theory in part because I've never yet heard a true Jedi talk about the "light" side of the Force, but only about the Force itself.

This theory goes that a true Jedi, rather than seeking towards good, seeks towards balance between the dual aspects of the Force. Taoist philosophy is very wary of Good vs. Evil, so I am reluctant to label the two sides of the Force in such a manner.

Instead, the Jedi seek balance between aspects of the Force, something that could be described as "good". For whatever reasons they might have, the Sith edge towards either extreme, and by doing so, fall into the Dark Side. It is not perfectly analogous to Taoism, but then again, the Force is based on Taoism, rather than being Taoism itself. :)

[Lief Erikson]

Okay. Interesting theories :).

When the Jedi Order was at its height, Obi-Wan called Darth Maul a "disturbance in the Force". That happened in the very beginning of Episode 1. Maul would not have been a disturbance in the Force if he was actually helping to ease the imbalance in favor of the light side. He should not have been detected at all as a disturbance.

However, I think it is apparent from the movies that the Jedi are always seeking for the good. Doing good has turned out badly for the young unprepared Jedi, for the simple fact that they are young and unprepared. When a more experienced Jedi acts, the same problem does not exist. See Obi-Wan in "Attack of the Clones" as an excellent example of this. While tempted greatly by Lord Dooku, he refused to turn to the Dark Side. Contrast that strength with Anakin and Luke in the Episode 2s of the two separate trilogies. Luke and Anakin weren't participating in "extremism", and in my opinion, neither were the Sith. The Sith purposely chose the Dark Side, because it was much easier to gain great power through that source.

To support my own theory there are Obi-Wan's comments about the Force being able to "control your actions", Han's comments about "one all powerful Force controlling everything", Qui-Gon's comments that Jedi should follow the will of the Force, which implies that it has a will, a form of intelligence, and a purpose for good. The Jedi always strive to do good, rather then appearing to simply seek balance between good and evil. Remember that the Sith always are portrayed doing evil and the good Jedi are always portrayed as striving for good. In my opinion, anyway :). If the Force is good and has a will for good, but can be used by others for evil, then that is a use against the Force's nature. An act against the nature of the Force can easily be termed and "imbalance", don't you think?

[Elemmírë]

When the Jedi Order was at its height, Obi-Wan called Darth Maul a "disturbance in the Force". That happened in the very beginning of Episode 1. Maul would not have been a disturbance in the Force if he was actually helping to ease the imbalance in favor of the light side. He should not have been detected at all as a disturbance.

A disturbance in the Force does not necessarily mean a shifting away from perfect balance. During ESB, the Force is imbalanced towards the Dark Side, but the Emperor refers to Luke as a "disturbance." :)

However, I think it is apparent from the movies that the Jedi are always seeking for the good. Doing good has turned out badly for the young unprepared Jedi, for the simple fact that they are young and unprepared. When a more experienced Jedi acts, the same problem does not exist. See Obi-Wan in "Attack of the Clones" as an excellent example of this. While tempted greatly by Lord Dooku, he refused to turn to the Dark Side. Contrast that strength with Anakin and Luke in the Episode 2s of the two separate trilogies.

Indeed. A less experienced Jedi acts out of rashness, and as a result, any good deeds are turned to the opposite purpose.

A more experienced Jedi, in contrast, seldom acts at all. When A New Hope opens, Obi-Wan Kenobi has been in hermitage for "x" years. Yoda has withdrawn to Dagobah. Neither actively takes part in the battles. Even in the Death Star, Kenobi serves more as a guide.

Luke and Anakin weren't participating in "extremism", and in my opinion, neither were the Sith.

This depends on what you consider extremism. IMO, to uphold one side and reject the other is always "extremism." :)

The Sith purposely chose the Dark Side, because it was much easier to gain great power through that source.

It's always easier to be out of balance. :(

To support my own theory there are Obi-Wan's comments about the Force being able to "control your actions", Han's comments about "one all powerful Force controlling everything", Qui-Gon's comments that Jedi should follow the will of the Force, which implies that it has a will, a form of intelligence, and a purpose for good. The Jedi always strive to do good, rather then appearing to simply seek balance between good and evil. Remember that the Sith always are portrayed doing evil and the good Jedi are always portrayed as striving for good. In my opinion, anyway :). If the Force is good and has a will for good, but can be used by others for evil, then that is a use against the Force's nature. An act against the nature of the Force can easily be termed and "imbalance", don't you think?

IMO, the Force is not good. It simply is. It does not have a purpose for good, it has a purpose. Putting value judgements on the Force seems to cheapen it. Credited to Embladyne, my partner in crime

So, I'm saying that the Force is and has a will. The way one uses it is up to the user. An act against its nature is an imbalance, perhaps, but do not forget that there is a "Dark Side" of the Force. :)

[Lief Erikson]

And I suppose that ends our discussion. I already responded to much of that earlier on. Some I agree with, of course.

[BeardofPants]

I wholly agree with Boggy there. I've always thought that the force just "is". As far as bringing balance to the force.... I'll admit that it perplexes me, but I've always thought that it was because Anakin/Emperor brought about the massive massacre against the jedi, and that it "evened" up the numbers, so to speak. Prolly completely wrong, but oh well.... it interests me!

[Lief Erikson]

It may all become clear in Episode 3.

[Lenya]

I wouldn't count on it. I think Star Wars was meant to have some mysteries.

[Elemmírë]

And I suppose that ends our discussion. I already responded to much of that earlier on. Some I agree with, of course.

You concede defeat? :evil: You are right, I think on many points we are agreeing, simply stating our beliefs in a way that makes them seem opposite, even though they are not.

I wholly agree with Boggy there. I've always thought that the force just "is". As far as bringing balance to the force.... I'll admit that it perplexes me, but I've always thought that it was because Anakin/Emperor brought about the massive massacre against the jedi, and that it "evened" up the numbers, so to speak. Prolly completely wrong, but oh well.... it interests me!

Thank you, Boppy. :) It seems to plausable to be completely wrong.

I wouldn't count on it. I think Star Wars was meant to have some mysteries.

I agree. We will probably still be able to debate this long after everything is over... like we do with Tolkien. :)

[Lief Erikson]

I certainly was NOT conceding defeat :). I simply found that most of those arguments in your most recent post I'd already responded to earlier on. I wasn't interested in covering old territory. I once did that when debating theology with my older sister. We went on and on and on and on and on, and then we went into the same territory again- the argument turned circular. At that point there became no point in pursuing it. This has been fun, though. I wouldn't have known precisely what I thought about the balance of the Force, to speak truly, if not for this discussion. Now I'm done with it though. Adios :).

[Elemmírë]

And such is the problem with all theological debate.

Namárië. :)

[me9996]

As we all know there is a Prophecy in Star Wars that states that there will be a one that will have the power to bring the force into balance. Qui-Gon Jinn beleived this one was Anakin Skywalker, with the highest meteclorian count ever charted it seems plausable. A Human with more "force" in him than even Yoda himself. My question pretains to the idea of balanced. What exactlly is balance to George Lucas? There was a center for Jedi and the training of almost an army of Jedi. Where as the Sith were supposedly two, no more no less. Although I don't feel this is true as during the apprenticship of Darth Maul Count Dooku must have also been in the service of the sith, creating a paradox of three Sith at one time at least. However, that fact aside, there should only be two, master and aprentice. So, what balance is needed? The destruction of the Jedi till there is only two left? Wouldn't that be balanced?
Within the films we see Darth Vader return to Anakin Skywalker and destroy Darth Sideous creating an equality one Jedi one Sith; Luke and Vader. Then Luke watches Vader die and so the force is still unbalanced! This idea really boogles my mind because it never actually works! Any ideas on the whole Prophecy thing!?
As far as I know the sith are imbalence...

[Lenya]

I agree. We will probably still be able to debate this long after everything is over... like we do with Tolkien. :)

That's what makes it so cool. You're not fed everything with a spoon, there is still stuff left to ponder about.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I think I have figured out the answer to my own question over time and research. The Sith are unbalanced as "me" said. The Jedi unlike the Sith are balanced in the force, they are not on the "Light Side" as most would infer. Also I came to realize that Anakin was "The One", he was the one who inevitably destroyed The Sith. It was because of his love for his children that the Dark Side bound was broken, anakin returned from Vader and conquered Darth Sidious. Even if Darth Vader hadn't died I think the galaxy would have balanced, Anakin had returned. There was, after Sidious died, two remaining Jedi, Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker.

[Lenya]

Good answer, sound logic to me. The only thing I'm baffled about is this: Yoda said that there's always 2, a master and an apprentince, but when Darth V was no more, there was only one sith left. I thought there has to be 2. Or was that the first step towards restoring the balance?

[me9996]

Vader kills his master and then dies, the end of the sith.
Thus anikin did restore the balence

[Lenya]

I don't think he still clasifies as sith in the end. He willingly turned against his master and thus the Dark Side.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Vader kills his master and then dies, the end of the sith.
Thus anikin did restore the balence
But how can that be restoring balance, it's just making it more one sided.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Like I said in my last post, the force would not be one sided once Anakin turned from the Dark Side since the Jedi are not "Light Side" they are more neutral to the force. People often confuse the Jedi's balanced force with "Light Side". The Sith were the cause of the unbalanced situation, with the destruction of the Empire, the death of Sidious, and the turning of Vader to Anakin the force was restored to a balanced state.

As for the "Always two there are. No more, no less." statement by Yoda, this is just a reference to the new code of the sith. In times way before Episode I there were many Sith, as many Sith as Jedi. The massive amounts of Sith caused strife between eachother causing the Sith Wars. (It was inevitable with hundreds of Dark Sided baddies all trying to have the ultimate control and power.) Anyways, after the Sith Warswere over Darth Bane made a kind of set of rules of the Sith order, once rule was that there should only be two Sith, a Master and an Apprentice. Anymore than that and there would be another Sith war.

This whole idea can be seen twice in the Star Wars films, first Dooku asks Obi-wan to join him and together they would defeat the Sith. This is more important than realised, if Dooku had Obi-wan as an apprentice those two Sith would defeat Sidious and then it would be Dooku Master and Obi-wan Apprentice. The second time we see this possibility is when Darth Vader asks Luke Skywalker to join them. Inevitably, if Luke had joined his father, the two Skywalkers would have crushed Sisious and became the Darth's of the Empire. And thats that.

[me9996]

But how can that be restoring balance, it's just making it more one sided.
Thee light side on it's own is balenced... if George Lukus knew of this he'd say... Something. ;)

[Bombadillo]

I don't think "the balance" was meant to be the jedi to sith ratio. The force itself would be unbalanced as long as the sith existed to manipulate it to their own uses. Since it's the force that "binds all things together," apparently on physical and other planes, I think that each time a jedi or sith messes with it in one area, something happens in another part of the universe that shouldn't happen. And since the Dark Side is marked by greed and corruption, sith would be using the force with no resptraint for as long as they existed. Once Luke killed the last sith, he probably exersized restraint during the rest of his life. Then the force was left alone and not bent for anyone's purposes, and hence, it was balanced.

I don't say that with any authority, altough I'm sure that's the way it goes.

Also, Qui Gon may have been wrong about Anikin being the one to restore the balance. It depends on your point of view. From mine, Luke was actually the one who restores the balance, so he was at least on the right track. And on the same note, he was wrong about Obi Wan being ready to take on an apprentice (since his apprentice was apparently not guided enough along the Light Side), but on the right track with that because that was Anikin's destiny, which would not have been fulfilled if Qui Gon hadn't puched for it.

Maybe I sound too deep. But I'm happy in my geekdom. :cool:

[me9996]

I don't think "the balance" was meant to be the jedi to sith ratio. The force itself would be unbalanced as long as the sith existed to manipulate it to their own uses. Since it's the force that "binds all things together," apparently on physical and other planes, I think that each time a jedi or sith messes with it in one area, something happens in another part of the universe that shouldn't happen. And since the Dark Side is marked by greed and corruption, sith would be using the force with no resptraint for as long as they existed. Once Luke killed the last sith, he probably exersized restraint during the rest of his life. Then the force was left alone and not bent for anyone's purposes, and hence, it was balanced.

I don't say that with any authority, altough I'm sure that's the way it goes.

Also, Qui Gon may have been wrong about Anikin being the one to restore the balance. It depends on your point of view. From mine, Luke was actually the one who restores the balance, so he was at least on the right track. And on the same note, he was wrong about Obi Wan being ready to take on an apprentice (since his apprentice was apparently not guided enough along the Light Side), but on the right track with that because that was Anikin's destiny, which would not have been fulfilled if Qui Gon hadn't puched for it.

Maybe I sound too deep. But I'm happy in my geekdom. :cool:
Luke doesn't do it, anikin/darth vader chucked palpaten in the pit. :D

[Adonai Dragonwagon]

I'm not sure if this is what some of you mean, but I always thought it was necessary for Anakin to be evil because great good comes with great evil.
I'm certainly no Star Wars buff, but it seemed to me that the Jedi were becoming complacent, stagnating in their assurance of peace. Good that has no reason to exist does stagnate and diminish, sometimes even corrupting itself into evil, like the Senate's bureacracy was doing. And so, in order to preserve the balance, and to keep good in the world, there also had to be evil.

Again, I'm not a Star Wars nerd, I don't know much about them beyond what the books and movies explicitly say.