Galadriel or the Ring?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

"Hence forth I shall call nothing fairer lest it be her [Galadriel's] gift to me!"~Gimli son of Gloin.

I just remembered this line from book and film and it made me think of something.(It's not 100% acurate on the words but it's got the gist of it!) If nothing is fairer to Gimli than Galadriel would he then care not for the one ring? After that would he have been an acceptable ring bearer? Legolas and Gimli had become friends and so elf/dwarf strife would not be a factor. The Hobbits were not as hardy as a Dwarf so perhaps he would have been more stead fast. What do you think?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that the Ring could have shown him all the gifts he could recieve if he had the Ring, many fairer than Galadriels hair.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Theo nly gifts I see which he would desire enough to be tempted would be with Galadriel herself. I think that is the only flaw in my theory.

[Durin1]

But I don't think that Gimli ever "lusted" after Galadriel. It was more of a plutonic "love" of how fair and noble she looked, being a reminder of bygone days. She is the only elf left in ME (excepting Maglor perhaps!) who was born in the blessed realm.

Also, it seems to me that Tolkien used Gimli's change of heart to emphasise the thawing of icy relations between elves and dwarves. A dwarf's natural instinct is to appreciate things that are made by hands so it i a surprise that Galadriel values her beauty above materialistic things. Hence, Gimli is named "Elf-friend". He is also aware that she has had a "history" in dealing with Dwarves of old: when she names a few places in the the dwarf-tongue, "he looks up in wonder and sees in the heart of an enemy, understanding and pity". Or something like that, I haven't got the book to hand for an exact quote.

As for whether Gimli would have been a good ringbearer: Dwarves were not easily susceptible to the lure of the ring as other races, however, eventually it would have had a hold of him sooner that it would for a hobbit. I've mentioned somewhere else that it depended on characteristics of certain peoples. Gandalf (and Galadriel) mention that they would not take the ring because, although they would mean well in the beginning, eventually it would turn everything (including themselves) to evil. The power of the ring would be according to the strength and will power of the person using it. Gimli would obviously be more stronger and powerful than any hobbit so it wouldn't have been a wise decision to use him or anyone else of the company for that matter as a safe ring bearer.

[Attalus]

Actually, I suspect that one of the things that the Ring would have tempted Gimli with would be - Galadriel herself! It knew no decency, and the shortest road to an man's heart is through his deepest desires, however unworthy. No, he - and any other Dwarf - would been a most unsuitable Ringbearer. :(

[Ñólendil]

I think Gimli was just trying to make a point. Surely you don't think he literally lived out his life without calling anything beautiful, except for the gift of Galadriel (or however the quote went)? Anyway, I think we all ought to know you can't trust a man or woman not to be tempted by the One Ring just because he or she says so (although Gimli did not say so).

[inked]

Gimli is confessing that his reference point for the comprehension of beauty has shifted from his previous idea to the revelation of beauty in Galadriel. She becomes for him "Beatrice" (as in Dante's COMMEDIA) - a creaturely incarnation of the reality of Beauty. And well she might, Firstborn as she was, and though not unsullied by the world, certainly mostly untainted!

Gimli would hereafter know beauty in a new mode but he would still be able to call that which less gloriously reflected it "beautuiful".

In this JRRT was imaging forth the power of Eru descending the hierarchal structure of creation revealed in various degrees and manners and capable of apprehension in varying degrees and manners. That a dwarf would so recognize beauty in a living person rather than merely in artefacts of mithril, gold, or other precious metals or jewels, is a revelation of true beauty which is other than that self-created (or culturally understood) concept of beauty. In a sense he could not perhaps otherwise denote, Gimli recognized the beauty revealed by the hand of Eru in this His work of Art, Galadriel. We do the same when we recognize the beauty in others and may react the same way.

[Attalus]

Hi, inked, welcome to Entmoot. :)

[Forkbeard]

Gimli is confessing that his reference point for the comprehension of beauty has shifted from his previous idea to the revelation of beauty in Galadriel. She becomes for him "Beatrice" (as in Dante's COMMEDIA) - a creaturely incarnation of the reality of Beauty. And well she might, Firstborn as she was, and though not unsullied by the world, certainly mostly untainted!

:) Yeah!

[HLGStrider]

I also don't think Gimli was lusting for Galadriel. It's one of those sit at someone's feet and sigh sort of loves at the most.

Also, I think that the ideas of not calling anything else beatiful and not being tempted by the ring are far from each other. The Ring was not a beautiful thing. It was not enticing in the way of Galadriel. It was luring only in power, and Gimli did not simply sit down in inaction when struck by Galadriel's glory. He went on and fought and fought hard. He still was obviously able to weild an axe and weilding a ring might seem similar to him at first, just a subtler weapon.

However, I don't see him as being tempted that easily. I think he would've gotten himself killed rather than fall to the ring. Dwarves aren't subtle, and would rather fight than hide.

[Olmer]

Gimli recognized the beauty revealed by the hand of Eru in this His work of Art, Galadriel.
Yeh, right!
He was crushed not by beauty, but by kindness, which was actually nothing but cold calculated play, as all Lothlorien's politic:doesn't matter what happening, the matter is how Lorien can turn it for its advantage. And royal Lord and Lady are beginning to play "bad cop, good cop" for Gimli benefit.
I don't believe that "the Wisest of the Elves" in thouthands years did not learn to control his own emotions, and did not know how dangerous is to offend the dwarves. His uncle Thingol got killed because of his snobbish detestation towards underground smiths.
Yet, Gimli, the dwarf of royal lineage, is singled out and got publically offended TWICE! More then that, he got a heavy burden of blame that because of him the whole Fellowship woud be suffering a dire consequences by denial of the entrance of the northern borders and facing the ord of Orcs on their own.
Did not he feel cold and antagonism, did not he sank in the ocean of loneliness, because even his friends did not say a word in his defence, shyily averting their eyes? I bet, he did!
And in the very depth of his misery came the kind words of support of the one from whom he would never even dreamt to get.
And in this words, given in his ancient tongue, the warmth of the lost home and an understanding love and compassion.
Elves word is as shattering as elves arrow, and Gimli , shot by kindness and undestanding of the Greatest of the Great, is already hanging on the trophy's belt of the golden-haired hunter.From now on this tangar will be more than willing advertiserof the Elves wiseness, nobility and beauty among other
dwarves , and if the need comes he, unhesitantly, will throw himself on danger to defend the lady of his heart.

[The Gaffer]

Nice theory, and one partly made explicit in the text. Is there not a line something like:

"Looking into the heart of an enemy and finding understanding"?

Not sure if this is as coldly manipulative as you suggest, though. I think it was genuine. Galadriel had good reasons to be more empathic towards dwarves; being Noldorin, and hence sharing some of their love of things made by craft; having lived in Eregion and traded with them in Moria; and being able to remember the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost coming to the aid of the Noldor in the First Age.

[Attalus]

I have no doubt that Galadriel's appeal was made much more intense by her unearthly beauty, and Elves were always being accused of stealing mortals' hearts, but Gimli wasn't spirited away under Elf Hill and wasn't found 'palely loitering' on a wintry field. If fact, he seemed much the better Dwarf for it, adding to his appreciation of beauty. It's always good to have something to think about other than oneself.

[inked]

Ahh, Olmer,
Besotted with the cynicism of the age in which you dwell,
You would consign all others the same hell to indwell!
Alas for you the world that Tolkein made
Shall break through and your spirit unshade!
Yet shall light of Trees-in-Star
Break Ungoliant's poison dripping from afar!
A Elbereth Gilthoniel!!!

[Olmer]

Ahh, Olmer,
Besotted with the cynicism of the age in which you dwell,
You would consign all others the same hell to indwell!
Alas for you the world that Tolkein made
Shall break through and your spirit unshade!
Yet shall light of Trees-in-Star
Break Ungoliant's poison dripping from afar!
A Elbereth Gilthoniel!!!
Heh..heh... We have a poet here... :rolleyes:

Let me reciprocate with:

I can afford a cynicism in age in which I dwell
And not to care what others would have think of me, as well.
Indeed, the world of Tolkien for me is not a shell,
But real place where true-life men can contentedly dwell.
Not all the dripping poison has been coming from the hell,
It could provide the medicine for man which unwell.
I wouldn't say your prayers did not ring for me the bell,
But to free my spirit from the shade you need a stronger spell!!! :cool: :D :D

[inked]

Olmer,

Lembas, lembas, lembas! :)

[Attalus]

Should we quote Legolas, who did not want to keep Gollum in close confinement lest he fall back into his old, black thoughts? :p

[The Gaffer]

McGonagall lives! :D

[Haradrim]

Gimli's phrase was whjat some of us call a figure of speech. Its this crazy thing people do when they want to make a point. Its pretty nifty :). Dwarves would have not been good ringbearers because they would have been tempted by the gold and the power over raw materials it would give them. The wearer of the rign could probably make the most amazing stuff. I mean what dwarf wouldnt want that. Gladriel or no Galadriel.

[Elemmírë]

I think that the Ring could have shown him all the gifts he could recieve if he had the Ring, many fairer than Galadriels hair.

I don't know... we all should remember what Galadriel's hair supposedly drove Fëanor to do... ;)

I do however agree with Olmer and The Gaffer, rather than simply her beauty, it was probably Galadriel's kindness that made the most impact on Gimli.

Haradrim: I don't know if I misinterpreted something, but I always got the impression that dwarves were fairly resilient - not to gold, but to the promise of power - especially when compared to Elves; that they would rather stay out of things and not get involved...

Am I far off? :confused:

[Haradrim]

not power in respect to dominating but in respect to power of craft. The power to create anything they wanted. That is the power I was referring to. :)

[ethuiliel]

okay, so I only read the first few posts, since I have to go to bed. I'll read the rest later, but forgive me if I repeat what anyone said.

Anyways, I think that while Gimli might consider nothing "fairer" than Galadriel's gift, he has never actually been offered the ring, nor held it. He might not think it to be fairer, but I do think that in such a situation, he might succumb, if not at first then eventually. Especially if he was a ring bearer. Even Frodo succumed to it, and Sam nearly did. Even Faramir thought about it, for a small moment (though I hate to admit it). So why should Gimli be any better?

[Haradrim]

Everyone cept Tom who saw it or touched it was affected by it. its a simple fact. A dwarf would have been no better. THough I could be wrong. :)

[Manveru]

i agree, gimli had never held the ring or felt its power. i'm sure when he said this he was using it as a figure of speech, and that he was refering to beauty not power

[Elemmírë]

"Hence forth I shall call nothing fairer lest it be her [Galadriel's] gift to me!"~Gimli son of Gloin.

You know... maybe the two things don't have anything in common.

He's calling her "fair." Most certainly an elvish queen, one called "most beautiful of the House of Finwe) is "fairer" than the One Ring.

I admit I haven't read Fellowship of the Ring in a while, but does it actually say anywhere that Gimli wants to possess Galadriel?

Gimli would probably be affected as much by the Ring as anyone else, though I hold that he would at first be more resilient to it. But even if he desired and theoretically one this power, to me it doesn't mean that he finds the ring or its power "fairer" than Galadriel.

[ItalianLegolas]

maybe if Frodo died, but he didn't die, so thats that

and just a pointless question, but where did get that avatar from MSG3? (thats the fate right?)

[Attalus]

I admit I haven't read Fellowship of the Ring in a while, but does it actually say anywhere that Gimli wants to possess Galadriel?
In the first place, JRRT expressly did not put any sexual content in the LotR, though some appeared in the Sil (Melkor's rape of the sun-maiar, and potentially in Celegorm and Curufin's kidnapping of Lúthien Tinúviel, the cads). Some hint of it might be hypothesised in Celebrian's "torment in the dens of the orcs," but that is conjectural. The Dwarves seem, also, to be rather asexual and more interested in greed and crafts for Gimli to even think of it that way.

[Durin1]

I don't think Dwarves were interested in Greed! It just happened to get that way through the potency of the Dwarvish rings.

[Attalus]

Didn't mean to insult your folk, Durin. :D But the characteristic had to be there for the Rings to exploit. Didn't Gloin say that the Dwarves delved too greedily and deeply to awaken the Balrog, though that seems unnecessarily harsh. Was there some prohibition against digging deeply that we know nothing about?

[Durin1]

I think it is what Gandalf alludes to: he says that the Dwarves could find plenty of gold, silver and iron, and materials but their wealth seemed to have been based largely on Mithril, which they probably got enamoured by; although yearly it was becoming more difficult to win. Hence, they (the Dwarves) have to go to greater lengths to find mithril and end up awakening the Balrog.